posted
JUBA I the father of Juba II nose and profile looking quite European. Is it his hair or a hat? that is looking possibly African
JUBA II
looks like many of the berbers who are mixed, hair European, lips and flare of nostril with some African tendency, straight forehead somewhat European looking, middle of nose has a not , overall mixed looking
His partial African qualities here may have been removed - Romaninized when rendered as a coin - speculation
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: JUBA I the father of Juba II
JUBA II
looks like many of the berbers who are mixed, hair European, lips and flare of nostril with some African tendency, strait forehead somewhat European looking
His partial African qualities here may have been removed - Romaninized when rendered as a coin - speculation
juba I looks nothing like juba II
the juba I coin is carrying the scepter of zeus. how do we know that is not zeus?
king juba coin
roman coin
Mauritanians during the time of the Romans were African
Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.
So show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time. No that does not make sense to have his image on the coin but somebody else name
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.
So show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time. No that does not make sense to have his image on the coin but somebody else name
the coin is roman that is why it makes sense
Africans did not make coins during this time period
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the questioner:
Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.
So there is some precedent to you theory show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time.
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the questioner:
Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.
So there is some precedent to you theory show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time.
king juba was the most loyal king to the roman empire
show me another vassal that has its own coins that was more loyal
^ you posted a Greek statue Charioteer of Delphi That is not what we are dealing with
^ we are dealing with this JUBA II bust and the features do not match that Greek statue, they are semi African looking
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Mauritanians during the time of the Romans were African
how do you know some were not mixed with Romans, Greeks or Phoenicians?
because they were black, woolly haired, and plaited their hair according to the ancient Greeks and Romans
you mean plaited hair like this?
Also you will have to provide quotes to back what you claim about Mauretanians. It was a Roman province at the time. There was mixing going on as is typical with berbers Juba II married a Greek Ptolemaic princess Cleopatra Selene II.
Greeks had setteled in the region, Romans and Phoenicians so if Juba II was part African and part non-African if would not be surprising
At the same time we dont know if there were intermarriage differences between rank and file Mauretanians and the royals, powerful Mauretanins probably had more access to the Roman women than the average Mauretanian
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: you missed my point
We dont know for a fact if that bust is king juba or not
his fashion, features and the style of art work is not african [/QB]
you missed my point, his features could easily be semi-African, yet you are saying they are not
the world is not all black and white you know, people do mix
If you can't see the wideness of his nose in comparison to the narrowness of the nose of the Apollo sculpture I can't help you. Additionally there are Egyptians statues with narrow noses like that
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: you missed my point
We dont know for a fact if that bust is king juba or not
his fashion, features and the style of art work is not african
you missed my point, his features could easily be semi-African, yet you are saying they are not
the world is not all black and white you know, people do mix
If you can't see the wideness of his nose in comparison to the narrowness of the nose of the Apollo sculpture I can't help you. Additionally there are Egyptians statues with narrow noses like that [/QB]
again you missed my point again
i appreciate you responding and answering my question as best way you can
Mauritanians during the time of the Romans were African
how do you know some were not mixed with Romans, Greeks or Phoenicians?
because they were black, woolly haired, and plaited their hair according to the ancient Greeks and Romans
you mean plaited hair like this?
Also you will have to provide quotes to back what you claim about Mauretanians. It was a Roman province at the time. There was mixing going on as is typical with berbers Juba II married a Greek Ptolemaic princess Cleopatra Selene II.
Greeks had setteled in the region, Romans and Phoenicians so if Juba II was part African and part non-African if would not be surprising
At the same time we dont know if there were intermarriage differences between rank and file Mauretanians and the royals, powerful Mauretanins probably had more access to the Roman women than the average Mauretanian
"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ... By J. C. Nott pg 95
Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.
It doesn't make sense because you have not produced any example of a coin that has a king or emperors name on it but the head of someone else on the same side.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
How do you know this is Caesar Augustus and not a god?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.
It doesn't make sense because you have not produced any example of a coin that has a king or emperors name on it but the head of someone else on the same side.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
How do you know this is Caesar Augustus and not a god?
^^^ what god looks like that?
During the reign of Caesar Augustus, Rome was the only people making coins in the Mediterranean at that time.
"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ... By J. C. Nott pg 95 [/QB]
quote:^^^ what god looks like that?
yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?
Ask somebody anonymous about it
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ... By J. C. Nott pg 95
quote:^^^ what god looks like that?
yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?
Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.
So show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time. No that does not make sense to have his image on the coin but somebody else name
the coin is roman that is why it makes sense
Africans did not make coins during this time period
True, important is to understand the history and meaning of coins.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ... By J. C. Nott pg 95
quote:^^^ what god looks like that?
yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?
Ask somebody anonymous about it
anonymous writer was Steinbuchel
You have a good similarity here
Still the problem I have is here has to be a precedent of a head, not a figure a head, of a god and the name of an emperor on the same side of the coin
You have 1,500 year of Roman history to find a case of this
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ... By J. C. Nott pg 95
quote:^^^ what god looks like that?
yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?
Ask somebody anonymous about it
anonymous writer was Steinbuchel
You have a good similarity here
Still the problem I have is here has to be a precedent of a head, not a figure a head, of a god and the name of an emperor on the same side of the coin
You have 1,500 year of Roman history to find a case of this
another example Gold stater of Vercingetorix this is actually a portrait of Apollo not Vercingetorix
Vercingetorix was a Gaul and therefore should have a beard
"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ... By J. C. Nott pg 95
quote:^^^ what god looks like that?
yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?
Ask somebody anonymous about it
anonymous writer was Steinbuchel
You have a good similarity here
Still the problem I have is here has to be a precedent of a head, not a figure a head, of a god and the name of an emperor on the same side of the coin
You have 1,500 year of Roman history to find a case of this
another example Gold stater of Vercingetorix this is actually a portrait of Apollo not Vercingetorix
Vercingetorix was a Gaul and therefore should have a beard
where is your primary source evidence all Gaul men had beards?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ... By J. C. Nott pg 95
quote:^^^ what god looks like that?
yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?
Ask somebody anonymous about it
anonymous writer was Steinbuchel
You have a good similarity here
Still the problem I have is here has to be a precedent of a head, not a figure a head, of a god and the name of an emperor on the same side of the coin
You have 1,500 year of Roman history to find a case of this
another example Gold stater of Vercingetorix this is actually a portrait of Apollo not Vercingetorix
Vercingetorix was a Gaul and therefore should have a beard
where is your primary source evidence all Gaul men had beards?
Julius Caesar triumph coin depicting a captured Gaul with beard and Venus
Gauls were stereotypical depicted with beards and mustaches before roman colonization
the so called "dying Gaul" used to be called the "dying Gladiator"
The map here shows Mauretania and next door Numidia
Coin of Juba I King of Numidia and father of Juba II
Portrait of Juba I, king of Numidia (c. 85 BC-46 BC). Marble, Roman artwork, ca. Christian Era. From Cherchell (ancient Cæsarea), Algeria.
Lusius Quietus Commanding the Moorish Cavalry
Lusius Quietus was a Roman general and governor of Judaea in 117 AD. He was the principal commander against the Jewish rebellion known as the Kitos War ("Kitos" is a later corruption of "Quietus"). As both a general and a highly acclaimed commander, he was notably one of the most accomplished Berber statesmen in ancient Roman history.
______________________________
Show us some Numidian kings on coins for context
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: where is your primary source evidence all Gaul men at any age had beards?
Coin of Caesar, showing a Gallic captive Date ca. 50 BCE London, British Museum Gaul, Roman Republic
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Juba II was a berber. He may have had a non-African mother and his wife was Greek. His features look semi-African here. His appearance on coins might be stylized to make him look more Roman. This sculpture is a much more skilled piece if art than the coins, so is potentially more accurate
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
on the reverse is a depiction of a horse which is sacred to this god GAUL, Northeast. Ambiani. 2nd century BC. AV Quarter Stater (14mm, 2.03 g, 10h). Somme Valley – Trumpet Type, Class Ib. Celticized head of Apollo right / Celticized horse right; above figure seated right, blowing trumpet; sickle-shaped ornament to right; below, figure seated(?) facing, holding up both arms and extending fingers to belly of horse. Scheers Series 3, Class III, var. b, pl. II, 32; Sills dies 4/5, pl. 7, 209; Depeyrot, NC VII, 142B; D&T 24; de la Tour – (Muret 10255); Flesche –. EF, struck with worn obverse die. Extremely rare, only six noted by Sills, including the five noted by Depeyrot.
Celtic Coinage, Middle Danube. Uncertain tribe. Silver Tetradrachm (12.7g) struck late 2nd-early 1st Century BC. Variant of the Kroisbach/Reiterstumpf type. Celticized head of Apollo left with a low, jutting brow and hair formed of heavy reversed 'S'-shaped curls. Reverse: Celtic rider, showing only torso and above, with plaited curving locks, on horseback left; horse with a clef-shaped ear; twisting groundline below terminating in torque at each end.
I hold up a banana, you say it's a lemon I say prove it, y you say "it's yellow isn't it, that is a fact"
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
^^^^ if you believe this is not apollo belenus then who is it?
The above gold coin at top could be a younger depiction of Vercingetorix or it could be a generic version of of a man supposed to be Vercingetorix but made without knolwedge of how Vercingetorix.
You said "his is actually a portrait of Apollo" then you updated to "Apollo Belenus " You don't know that so you shouldn't be stating it as fact. There's a similar issue going on now with Clyde.
Now if the coin had that had only the head and the text said Vercingetorix on the back with a picture of a horse or some other thing then one might speculate maybe it was not Vercingetorix and that still doesn't prove it is Belenus. That is a logic flaw, If A is not equal to B that does not mean it's equal to C. It could be D or E or F etc.
But it is on the same side as the head and that is just like a caption describing the head. You have yet to show any precedent of a coin that has the name of a ruler on the same side as a head that is not of the ruler.
Is this a good resemblance of Vercingetorix. Does it have is features or is it an imagined depiction? We don't know. It was not the age of photography. But wait a minute, that might not even be Vercingetorix. His name is not even on it, front or back!!!
Is this Zeus? Not likely because it has Juba;s name on it.
Could a human like Juba look like Zeus but not be Zeus? Yes
Could a human like Vercingetorix look like Belenus?
The depictions of these completely fictional gods is not of oddball looking people. They are often depicted as ordinary looking, like ordinary humans of whom there are millions of of people similar looking.
Look at illustrations of Clark Kent. There are millions of people that look similar but they are not Superman
Instead of trying to force Caesar Augustus or a god onto this it is wiser to say this might, keyword "might" not be an accurate depiction of Juba II but instead maybe, keyword "maybe" imagined or idealized or made to look like a generic roman.
At the same time Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans had settled in the region for a several hundreds years and he could very well have been part African and part non-African
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
example 2 "But it is on the same side as the head and that is just like a caption describing the head." - the lioness So i guess Faustus Cornelius Sulla is a woman. (if we go by your logic)
"The above gold coin at top could be a younger depiction of Vercingetorix" - the lioness Vercingetorix was 30 years old when he came to power and the Gaulish nobility (like i have just proved) had mustaches
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] example 2 "But it is on the same side as the head and that is just like a caption describing the head." - the lioness So i guess Faustus Cornelius Sulla is a woman. (if we go by your logic)
Now you are actually doing some work to support your claims. But you are using this is exactly the wrong way. 99% of coins that have a head on them and a name, the name is of the person shown. So instead just pointing that out that maybe a depiction in rare instances is not of the person named you do a 360 and say that instead of raising uncertainty it does the opposite and verifies that the coin is yet another specific person. Do you understand what I'm telling you? You have a case here of a female god and I assume the numismatists are right that it's Diana due to how she's dressed or the fact that there are no female emperors.
But try to find a coin of a male head that is not a depiction of a king or emperor who has his name on the same side and that is a much bigger problem. You say that a coin is Belenus and your argument is that it's Belenus because it's not Vercingetorix. Do you see the flaw of logic here? You suggesting an image may not be a certain person does not prove that is some other specific person (or god) And the males are a problem because male gods are depicted as looking exactly like average humans.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
Vercingetorix was 30 years old when he came to power and the Gaulish nobility (like i have just proved) had mustaches
You frist claimed " Vercingetorix was a Gaul and therefore should have a beard"
Now you have changed to mustaches and still have no source all, keyword "all" Gauls had mustaches.
People like to say Egyptians had shaved heads. Then you see royal mummies with hair and we see there are exceptions
You showed a coin you say is Vercingetorix yet since that coin has no name on it you can't even be certain it's Vercingetorix
What is a red herring?
A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.
So we are off on a tangent here talking about whether or not all Gaul men had mustaches ( a couple of days ago beards) and the issue here is Juba II where him having a beard or not is completely irrelevant. A further problem is hypothesizing that someone with writing below him saying Juba II is another human ruler, Caesar - not a god
So let's remove the being a god possibility form these Juba II issue because you are not even trying to prove it's a god like Apollo or Jupiter but another human.
While one could imagine a male ruler having his head on one side of a coin an image of him and on the back a god, a higher being he would want to associate himself with it is harder to imagine him putting a different human ruler on the back who is on his same level.
You suggest Caesar Augutus issued coins with his on face on them but underneath on the same side of the coin the name of a vassal ruler of the empire
So let's stop talking about mustaches and focus the issue better.
Show us any coin of the Roman empire, 1,500 years where the head of an emperor is depicted but under that head the name of a vassal ruler.
It doesn't make sense. You have a tradition of emperors proudly having their head and name on a coin. Do you think they are going to want their head to be on a coin and somebody else's name on it?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
first you say "But it is on the same side as the head and that is just like a caption describing the head" the lioness
then you say "But try to find a coin of a male head that is not a depiction of a king or emperor who has his name on the same side and that is a much bigger problem."- the lioness
you keep pushing the goal back because you desperately want to win the debate
where is your evidence to prove those images are really juba I and II?
example 3
Caesar must be the god mars
the main point is that we can't prove that king juba I or II and Vercingetorix looked like that
juba I or II could be Caesar Augustus or Hercules or zeus/jupiter
Vercingetorix should have a mustache just like Diodorus Siculus described the Gaulish nobles
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Celtic Coinage, Middle Danube. Uncertain tribe. Silver Tetradrachm (12.7g) struck late 2nd-early 1st Century BC. Variant of the Kroisbach/Reiterstumpf type. Celticized head of Apollo left with a low, jutting brow and hair formed of heavy reversed 'S'-shaped curls. Reverse: Celtic rider, showing only torso and above, with plaited curving locks, on horseback left; horse with a clef-shaped ear; twisting groundline below terminating in torque at each end.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic