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Author Topic: Here we go again. QUEEN NEFERTITI BROUGHT TO LIFE WITH CONTROVERSIAL
Dinkum
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From a GENUINE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH PAPER.

White skin originated in CENTRAL ASIA about 8000 years ago and was taken into Europe by the very white Middle Eastern Farmers. (who also migrated into WEgypt) White skin developed separately in Northern Europe
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

5000 year old British man of Stonehenge recreated:

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Oshun
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Just in case you missed:


quote:
Originally posted by Dinkum:
Like I said before, there was a migration of African slaves into Socotra. What ancient Socotra looked like and modern Socotra look like is two different things. Or are you trying to say that the original peoples of Socotra for some strange reason didnt interbreed with the escaped slaves?

This has already been debunked since last page:

quote:
We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island approximately 6 kya.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19012329


The "strange reason" is long term isolation. They are a glimpse of what the Middle East looked like 6,000 years ago. If dark skin were wiped out, the Socotra Islanders would've been white.

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Fourty2Tribes
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinkum:
[QB] Yatunde Lisa: Im a atheist Jew.

DNA taken from ancient Egyptians is becoming very common. There has already been 4 different areas in Egypt where DNA has been taken from ancient mummies. Hopefully, the Amarna mummies will be next.

The Armana mummies were already tested.
http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-01-01.pdf Including the mummy they used for Nefertiti
https://dnaconsultants.com/king-tut-gene/
https://dnaconsultants.com/thuya-gene/
https://dnaconsultants.com/akhenaten-gene/

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Dinkum
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READ VERY SLOWLY

The Egyptian authorities DO NOT allow private DNA companies to take DNA from their mummies. All the above private companies took NO DNA from ancient Egyptian mummies and their results are NOT found on any respected scientific papers

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Oshun
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinkum:
From a GENUINE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH PAPER.

White skin originated in CENTRAL ASIA about 8000 years ago and was taken into Europe by the very white Middle Eastern Farmers. (who also migrated into WEgypt) White skin developed separately in Northern Europe
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

5000 year old British man of Stonehenge recreated:

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According to your source:

quote:
Then, the first farmers from the Near East arrived in Europe; they carried both genes for light skin. As they interbred with the indigenous hunter-gatherers, one of their light-skin genes swept through Europe, so that central and southern Europeans also began to have lighter skin. The other gene variant, SLC45A2, was at low levels until about 5800 years ago when it swept up to high frequency.
quote:
Originally posted by Dinkum:
READ VERY SLOWLY

The Egyptian authorities DO NOT allow private DNA companies to take DNA from their mummies. All the above private companies took NO DNA from ancient Egyptian mummies and their results are NOT found on any respected scientific papers

If my memory serves, they took the genetic data published by Zink to draw their findings about the Amarna mummies. They used the genetic data that was published by academics.
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Dinkum
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
Just in case you missed:


quote:
Originally posted by Dinkum:
Like I said before, there was a migration of African slaves into Socotra. What ancient Socotra looked like and modern Socotra look like is two different things. Or are you trying to say that the original peoples of Socotra for some strange reason didnt interbreed with the escaped slaves?

This has already been debunked since last page:

quote:
We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island approximately 6 kya.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19012329


The "strange reason" is long term isolation. They are a glimpse of what the Middle East looked like 6,000 years ago. If dark skin were wiped out, the Socotra Islanders would've been white.

There were INDIANS living on Socotra for 2000 years. They were ISOLATED so why would they be white?
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Oshun
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Soqotri is Afro Asiatic (Semetic), not Indo-Aryan or Indo-European. Indians have been a minority but their arrival seems to date to around the first century BC. Even if they did speak Indo European or something like that, they'd have had to migrate through the Near East to get to Socotra. After generations of migrating, it's doubtful they'd be as dark as they were if white skin was as widespread as it is today. Anyway the point is that their ancestors weren't white. They were isolated which means regional phenotypic changes AFTER 6,000 years ago didn't affect their populations. If white skin swept through the Near East, we would expect them to be white.
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Dinkum
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They carry MTDNA N which originated in East Africa or Asia. They carry a sub-clave of N not found anywhere else in the world because of long isolation.
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Fourty2Tribes
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinkum:
READ VERY SLOWLY

The Egyptian authorities DO NOT allow private DNA companies to take DNA from their mummies. All the above private companies took NO DNA from ancient Egyptian mummies and their results are NOT found on any respected scientific papers

Lol What they say about pride before the fall. The data was public. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/185393 Goto figues and tables Same thing Time Magzine used for paternity. The Armana mummies have been tested and analysed.

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Yatunde Lisa
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http://www.ancient-origins.net/history/kiya-most-mysterious-woman-amarna-005092/page/0/1


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Kiya was known to be a wife of Akhenaten, pictured in this relief carving

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The mummy revealed the truth
The most fascinating part of the research about Kiya is connected with the mummy of the Younger Lady discovered in tomb KV35. It was the second ''cachette'', after DB320, found with royal mummies inside. The tomb, which was reopened in 1907, was the final resting place for two women known as the Younger Lady and the Elder Lady, who were found lying next to each other.

Dr Joann Fletcher, the famous Egyptologist from York University, announced in 2004 that the Younger Lady was the beautiful Queen Nefertiti. French researcher, Marc Gabolde, in his recently published theory, follows Fletcher's opinion.

DNA tests, which were carried out on 11 mummies by the team of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, the National Geographic Society and Siemens, revealed the following: Tutankhamun’s father is very likely the man found in tomb KV55 – Akhenaten; the Elder Lady is Queen Tiye, mother of Akhenaten and wife of Amenhotep III; the mother of Tutankhamun is the Younger Lady, the daughter of Tiye and Amenhotep III; and Tutankhamun’s parents were brother and sister.

Amenhotep III

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Regarding the inscriptions found in the tomb of Pharaoh Ay,

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Nefertiti was his daughter and the sister of Mutnedjmet – wife of Pharaoh Haremhab. (not related to the preceding dynasty a commoner)

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This means that Nefertiti was in fact a niece of Queen Tiye. According to inscription from the Theban tomb of Ay, the results of research by Joann Fletcher are incorrect. It is unknown which of the several sisters of Akhenaten the Younger Lady is, but the role and special title of Kiya could be a hint. Currently the majority of Egyptologists, including Zahi Hawass, believe that Younger Lady was The Great Beloved wife of Akhenaten – Kiya.

The researcher who started to analyze artifacts connected with Kiya experienced a painful lack of information about her. Apart from the mysterious mummy, the most important artifacts connected to Kiya are four canopic jars found in tomb KV55. Currently one of her jars is in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the other three are in Cairo. They are impressive examples of New Kingdom art, with the face of the lid carved as a portrait. The lid of the jar represents one of the royal women of Amarna, variously identified as Nefertiti, Tiye, Merytamen or Kiya. Analysis of the erased inscriptions on the jars showed that the face of the woman with a long slender nose, sensuous lips and sloe eyes probably belonged to Kiya

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Fourty2Tribes
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Don't forget the Ay bust.
This is the uncle of the mummy used for the recreation.  -

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Yatunde Lisa
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However, I think someone is lying, but who?

I think Kiya could be the Syrian wife of Akenaton, and that would make the reconstruction of the supposed "Nefretiti" a correct version of a Syrian woman. But Kiya could NEVER be the daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiya, or Akenaton's sister. IMPOSSIBLE.

So that means that the DNA for Kiya ( The Younger Lady) has been misidentified, or fudged.

Why would Zahi Hawass want to do that? Because the Younger Lady is clearly the only Near Easterner in the bunch.. and all the rest of the Armana's are sporting Jackson 5 nostrils. LOL

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinkum:
Some people wont accept the recreations of white Egyptians but are quite happy to accept Cheddar Man recreation. Whats the difference? Both were done with 3D imaging.

I also think the scientists doing the recreating of ancient Egyptians (which have all been Caucasians) know a lot more about their subject. King Tut is probably the most researched ancient mummy ever. Im also sure they know what Haplogroups he carried. They just havent been published yet. Hopefully the Amarna Dynasty results will come out soon. Whats the bet they're probably Middle Eastern in origin just like the majority of the other mummies.

And some people don’t want to accept the original creations by Ancient Egyptians themselves, so they recreat a delusion/ illusion and completely false narratives.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


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^^^ The stylized proportions are not realistic for human. Note the chin and neck, not believable


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similarly, the head is much too narrow to be a realistic human

___________________________

The sculptures below are in realistic human proportion


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Akhenaten with blue crown, Egyptian National Museum in Cairo


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Bust of Akhenaten,Stucco/gypsum, Museum of Berlin


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Akhenaten, detail ~ Kestner Museum ~ Hannover.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinkum:
They carry MTDNA N which originated in East Africa or Asia. They carry a sub-clave of N not found anywhere else in the world because of long isolation.

This in all actuality doesn’t even matter. It was the same people roaming. This is why the African vs Eurasian notion is crazy and pure scientific bigotry.
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinkum:
READ VERY SLOWLY

The Egyptian authorities DO NOT allow private DNA companies to take DNA from their mummies. All the above private companies took NO DNA from ancient Egyptian mummies and their results are NOT found on any respected scientific papers

That is true, this is why is becomes even stranger when we see remains being tested now, dating back from the colonial era, which haven been taken out of Egypt almost a century ago.


The attempts are shockingly crazy.


quote:


Q8: Note 8: Test of Population Continuity: the analysis here was not described. Other than collapsing mtDNA lineages into haplogroup frequencies to compare ancient and contemporary groups, there is no description of what the actual test was. Even if the method was described in Brandt et al. (2013) [not even in the main text, only in their supplement], the authors should lay out the assumptions, parameter choices and models invoked in using this method. Why for example, is TPC preferable over Approximate Bayesian Computation models typically used to test the relative liklihood of two different population demographies (in this case continuity w/ minimal drift vs. migration).

Answer: We have extended the description of our analysis both in the methods part of the manuscript and our supplementary information for clarification and to explain our main findings. Our intention to use the TPC as applied in Brandt et al. 2013 was to evaluate with a simple method whether we can assume genetic continuity (null hypothesis) between our ancient groups and modern-day populations. We agree that complex ABC models would have been the ideal choice to explore alternative scenarios that could explain discontinuity under varying parameters (drift, migration, time, etc.), but were not deemed necessary given that we can more reliably estimate the origin and timing of admixture with nuclear data.

—Verena J. Schuenemann et al


quote:
The results of the TPC show that the transition from hunter-gatherers to the LBK farmers cannot be explained by genetic drift alone (p=0.000001) (Fig. 2D), consistent with previous findings (10–11).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=4039305_nihms584043f2.jpg

—Brandt et al. 2013 [Big Grin]
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Yatunde Lisa
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Art changed drastically during this period, it is evident that the court officially emulated the king's well known unusual physical characteristics - the court sculptors were instructed to represent what they saw. The result is a realism that breaks away from the rigid formality and stylisation of earlier official depictions.


Come on @lioness, this is the internet age, read don't just state your opinions.
That is the distinct Armana style. What you posted was ancient Photoshop.

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Yatunde Lisa
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 -

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Akenaton


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Neferti

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Fourty2Tribes
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
And some people don’t want to accept the original creations by Ancient Egyptians themselves, so they recreat a delusion/ illusion and completely false narratives.

Its simpler than that. Chedder Man's color is based on pigment genes. The mummy thought to be Nefertiti is based on the skull.
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Fourty2Tribes
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quote:
Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
However, I think someone is lying, but who?

I think Kiya could be the Syrian wife of Akenaton, and that would make the reconstruction of the supposed "Nefretiti" a correct version of a Syrian woman. But Kiya could NEVER be the daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiya, or Akenaton's sister. IMPOSSIBLE.

So that means that the DNA for Kiya ( The Younger Lady) has been misidentified, or fudged.

Why would Zahi Hawass want to do that? Because the Younger Lady is clearly the only Near Easterner in the bunch.. and all the rest of the Armana's are sporting Jackson 5 nostrils. LOL

The YL mummy is Akenaton's sister. Who it is we don't know. Obviously the people who did the recreation think its Nefertiti.
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Yatunde Lisa
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Maybe the Skull they have is NOT Nefertiti, it might Kiya... Is Kiya the daughter of Amenhotep III, I doubt it, but Nefertiti looks just like her brother AkenAten, they are the children of Amenhotep III the resemblance of siblings is there, in the statues and Armana depictions.



Youthful Nefertiti

Amarna, house P.47.2
Reign of Akhenaten, 1353 - 1336 B.C.
Quartzite; h. 30 cm, w. 14.8 cm, d. 18 cm
Agyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung, Berlin

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Nefertiti, whose name means "The beautiful one is come," was Akhenaten's principal wife.

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Older Nefertiti
Amarna, house P.47.3
Reign of Akhenaten, 1353 - 1336 B.C.
Granodiorite; h. 25 cm, w. 16.5 cm, d. 16 cm
Agyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung, Berlin


sculptor's model of Nefertiti, with a worshiper on reverse
Amarna, near the Great Temple
Reign of Akhenaten,
1353 - 1336 B.C.
Limestone;
h. 27 cm, w. 16.5 cm, d. 4 cm
Egyptian Museum, Cairo

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Elmaestro
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@Lisa
Unless you beleive Kiye is Akhenantens sister, then the skull they used for the reconstruction is not Kiye. That skull is of a mummy tested and confirmed to be Akhenantens blood Sister, Younger Lady.

Things like Soft tissue distribution, and skin color are determined at the Artists discretion. Another sculptor or forensics team can use the same exact skull and create a face that'll look substantially different. from Nadia Hilker to Fatoumata Diawara, with Tracie Ellis Ross in between.(I wouldn't be Mad with a similar depiction to any of the three tbh...)

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Yatunde Lisa
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@elmaestro

I will raise your Diawara & Ross with one Adu

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Tukuler
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@Yatunde Lisa

!!! Wonderful sculptures collection.
I'm downloading in mhtml to save em all.

--------------------
Intellectual property of YYT al~Takruri © 2004 - 2018. All rights reserved.

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Doug M
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The folks who used the younger ladies skull are probably following folks like Joanne Fletcher who claimed that the mummy was Nefertiti.

But that isn't the important piece.

The important piece is that many claimed at one point Nefertiti herself was Syrian or "foreign" based on that one so-called bust which most agree was fake. Especially when you consider all the other "amarna style" art from the period which look NOTHING like that. Then you got Amenhotep III and Tiye who are so blatantly black African that the only way they could come up with a justification for a white Nefertiti is by inserting some kind of foreign ancestry into the Amerna family somehow. Maybe some Syrian harem girl or some other foreign harem girl had a baby with Akhenaton. Or maybe Amenhotep III had babies with some foreign Harem girl who made it into the royalty of Amarna. All of these are the theories that some folks obsess over in order to justify such images of nefertiti. But at the end of the day this proves even they acknowledge that white skin like that was not common to Egypt at the time which is why they are talking up foreign ancestry so much. And this goes across most dynasties. This is why they are so obsessed with talking up "foreign" features in certain mummies.

And the reconstruction just shows clearly when they think of Egyptians they mean white, not mixed or brown at all.

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the lioness,
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^^^ se this? It is phyically impossible for a human being to have a face this narrow


quote:
Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


Art changed drastically during this period, it is evident that the court officially emulated the king's well known unusual physical characteristics - the court sculptors were instructed to represent what they saw. The result is a realism that breaks away from the rigid formality and stylisation of earlier official depictions.


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^^^ see this? if you show a photo of the exact same sculpture from a different angle the proportions of the actual sculpture remain the same, regardless of the photo angle


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Amenhotep IV ( who later changed his name to Akhenaten) Louvre Museum


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Amenhotep IV ( who later changed his name to Akhenaten) Louvre Museum (front view of previous)

^^ this one has realistic human proportions and seemingly the king at a younger age

The two different sculptures above of Akenhaten are both beautiful in my opinion but I finds the top one more interesting due to the distortion


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Limestone head of Akhenaten


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Tutankhamun


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Nefertiti

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the lioness,
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Yatunde Lisa
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But, it is more naturalistic the way Akenaton wanted so I go with the naturalistic as more resembling how he looked. For me, and this is just personal eyeballing, I don't think the mummy looks like Nefertiti the cheekbones and bridge of nose is different however, the reconstruction does resemble the mummy, without despite the skin color and eye color choice which is dubious at best.

Now do real humans have long faces? Of course

some Fulani men do

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check the previous images I posted, the Armana's are very Nubian influenced, Akenaton is wearing Nubian earring and Nefertiti wears Nubian styled wigs.

But in the more regulated early style you don't see that... Akenaton is representing in the Armana style delivering a 3k year postcard with a message it is up to you whether you want to see it or not.

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Doug M
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quote:


“The Younger Lady”

But, the hype over the empty tomb was nothing compared with the Nefertiti-mania that swept the media in 2003.

University of York archaeologist Joann Fletcher studied three mummies that had been found in the tomb of Pharaoh Amenhotep II. Fletcher announced that one of the bodies, nicknamed “the Younger Lady,” was, in fact, the mummy of Queen Nefertiti.

Her conclusion—which became the basis for a TV documentary, a book, a 60 Minutes report and numerous newspaper and magazine articles—was based, in part, on a wig found near the mummy. It was, Fletcher said, a Nubian hairstyle worn only by royalty during the period when Nefertiti reigned. And, Fletcher also discovered that one ear was double-pierced—a rare practice that was also attributed to Nefertiti.

Most Egyptologists, however, found Fletcher’s evidence superficial and unconvincing.

Barbara Mertz, an American Egyptologist and author (who died in 2013), wrote a letter in an academic journal stating that “the discussions will surely continue to rage, but there can be no doubt in the mind of any Egyptologist or educated Egyptology buff that the identification of the mummy in question as Nefertiti is balderdash (good manners prevent me from using a stronger term)."

The Younger Lady would make a return appearance in 2010.


A National Geographic article written by Zahi Hawass—then Egypt’s Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs—announced the results of DNA analyses of the three mummies. The Younger Lady, he said, was one of the sisters of King Tut’s father, the Pharaoh Akhenaten, and was Tutankhamun's mother.

But in 2013, French Egyptologist Marc Gabolde challenged that conclusion. Closer examination of the DNA evidence, he says, revealed that Nefertiti was both the Younger Lady and King Tut’s true mother.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/150814-nefertiti-tomb-tutankhamun-tut-archaeology-egypt-dna/

And as for all those folks who think the "experts" are objective and acknowledge the "diversity" of Egyptian society. Note the following:

quote:

But all experts arent sold.

The University of Chicago is home to The Oriental Institute, a world-renowned showcase for the history, art, and archaeology of the ancient Near East. The museum displays objects recovered by Oriental Institute excavations in permanent galleries devoted to ancient Egypt, Nubia, Persia, Mesopotamia, Syria, Anatolia and the ancient site of Megiddo, as well as rotating special exhibits.

Raymond Johnson, director of the Epigraphic Survey project and Research Associate and Associate Professor at the University of Chicago in the Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations Department, weighed in with great detail about the recent discovery and what they may mean to our understanding of King Tut's family:

"Regarding the forensic facial reconstruction of the mummy of the 'younger lady' announced this week, there are several issues worth discussion. The head in question is a beautiful job of forensic reconstruction by Elisabeth Daynes, and the artist has done science a great service. The mummy of ‘the younger lady’ has evoked a lot of speculation since it was found in 1898 in a side chamber of Amenhotep II’s royal tomb (KV 35) in the Valley of the Kings with two other despoiled mummies, and a cachette of nine reburied kings in the main burial chamber (Thutmosis IV, Amenhotep III, Merenptah, Sety II, Siptah, Sethnakht, and Ramesses IV, V, and VI). The second female mummy found in the side chamber, referred to as ‘the elder lady,’ has been identified as the mummy of Queen Tiye, great royal wife of Amenhotep III, based on a matching lock of her hair found in Tutankhamun’s tomb and recent DNA analysis. A third mummy found in the chamber, of a young prince with a sidelock, might be Akhenaten’s older brother Thutmosis, who predeceased Akhenaten. The ‘younger lady’ is the mummy that Joanne Fletcher years ago identified as Nefertiti, an idea that Zahi Hawass vigorously refuted. Zahi's DNA testing of the royal mummies a few years ago, including the 'younger' and 'older' ladies, indicated that the mummy of the ‘younger lady’ was Tutankhamun's mother, and to everyone’s surprise that she is also a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye.

If one accepts that the mummy of the 'younger lady' is the mother of Tutankhamun, then she cannot be Nefertiti. In no text is Nefertiti ever identified as a royal daughter. If she had been a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, it would have been clearly stated in her inscriptions, and there are hundreds of texts that survive mentioning Nefertiti with no mention of her parents. It has been suggested that she was a daughter of Ay, one of Akhenaten and Tutankhamun's high court officials, a military man who took the crown after Tutankhamun’s early death. Ay's title, Gods Father, could refer to his relationship to Nefertiti, who as queen could never claim a non-royal as her father. If the genetic analysis is correct and the mummy of the ‘younger lady’ is the mother of Tutankhamun and a daughter of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye, then this mummy cannot be Nefertiti.

Numerous sculptures and reliefs survive of Nefertiti, who ruled as queen and then as king with her husband, including many portraits from the end of the Amarna Period when the art style favoured a naturalism that borders on true portraiture. There are elements common to all of these later representations of Nefertiti: a straight nose, heavy-lidded eyes, long graceful neck, and a strong square jaw. The forensically reconstructed face with its narrow skull, deep-set eyes, and triangular jaw is beautiful but in no way resembles the portraits that survive of Nefertiti. That said, they could be relatives. One must remember that Queen Tiye and Ay were siblings; if Nefertiti’s father was indeed Ay, she and the younger lady would have been cousins.

Finally there is the issue of race and skin tone of the reconstructed
princess. From the beginning of human history Egypt was the gateway out of
the African continent, but was also the main route back in. The population of
Egypt was always a mix of European and African races, and the Egyptian court
and royal harem reflected this. Amenhotep III’s many wives included foreign wives from countries all around Egypt and the Mediterranean, including Caucasians, but he was certainly of mixed blood, as was Queen Tiye. We can never know for sure what the skin color of this princess might have been, but as the child of Amenhotep III and Tiye, she was undoubtedly not pure Caucasian. A brown skin color would have probably been more true to the individual represented, and to her times.


That said, it is moving to see the features of this remarkable woman whose identity has been debated ever since her discovery in 1898. Whoever she was, and in my opinion her name is still in question, she was a major player in the Amarna Period. As Tutankhamun scholar Marianne Eaton-Krauss has noted, Tutankhamun never mentioned his mother in any inscription because she was deceased before he took the throne. We know the names of Amenhotep III’s chief daughters: Sitamun, Nebetah, Isis, Hennutaneb, Baketaten, and we know that there were many more. Perhaps in time we will be able to restore one of those name to this body, whose face has been so vividly and beautifully recreated here."

So right there from one of the so-called experts you hear them say point blank that the AE weren't really "indigenous" populations of the Nile. They had to be mixed and because of that they didn't have to be African looking like their own artwork. And of course he claims that most portraits of Nefertiti have a "square jaw" when that is FALSE. The only portrait of Nefertiti with such refined features are that ONE BUST. Most other portraits of Nefertiti have BIG LIPS and a BIG HEAD. So what on earth is this guy talking about? He even says Queen Tiye was mixed. Wow. Coulda fooled me. They sure look 100% African from the way is shown in their artwork. And of course "brown" is a weasel word. It could be anything from very light tan to light brown but nothing like the deep rich brown that the Egyptians used in their own art work. I wonder why nobody uses that as the basis fo the colors of these reproductions? What? Were the Egyptians not able to tell what skin color they had?

And not to mention he says that Egypt always had "EUROPEAN" mixture. Since when was the Levant, Syria and Arabia ever part of Europe?

And keep in mind that the Oriental Institute was founded by the Rockefellers who were the main financiers of American expeditions to Egypt in the 1900s.

quote:

History of the Oriental Institute Museum

The Oriental Institute was founded in 1919 by James Henry Breasted with the financial support of John D. Rockefeller Jr., and was originally envisaged as a research laboratory for the investigation of the early human career that would trace humankind’s progress from the most ancient days of the Middle East. The goal of the Oriental Institute is to be the world’s leading center for the study of ancient Near Eastern civilizations by combining innovation in theory, methodology, and significant empirical discovery with the highest standards of rigorous scholarship.

The Oriental Institute Museum was opened to the public in 1931. The majority of the collections of the Oriental Institute came from its expeditions in the Middle East during the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s. A major reinstallation of the Museum, including the construction of a climate-controlled wing for housing collections and archives, took place in the 1990s and early 2000s. The Voting Members of the Oriental Institute, who meet quarterly and approve changes to the Mission Statement of the Oriental Institute Museum. The Oriental Institute is a unit within the University of Chicago and the name of the corporation is “The University of Chicago.” The corporation was originally incorporated on September 10, 1890. The corporation has not changed its name since its original date of incorporation.

https://oi.uchicago.edu/about/oriental-institute-museum

And of course the purpose of the Europeans being in the "Middle East" which actually what they called the lands of the Ottoman Empire after WW1 to disconnect them from the Ottomans, was to put a white European face on the history of mankind. Which is why so many artifacts from this area are in European museums.

quote:

In 1926, the United States' first Egyptologist James Henry Breasted and the philanthropist John D. Rockefeller Jr., proposed to build a New Egyptian Museum and Research Institute in Cairo. The Egyptian government ultimately rejected the proposal and the museum was never built as suggested. The project's failure was attributed to "suspicious" or "irrational" nationalism and "Egyptian vanity." The archives, however, demonstrate otherwise. This thesis analyzes the Breasted-Rockefeller museum's conception, trajectory and failure, using the team's lengthy correspondence. The archives show that the project was an early example of U.S. cultural imperialism, disguised as a gift of "Science," from the "Great Democracy of the West," to an Egypt desirous of independence from British and French empires. Deploying the twin themes of post World War I "opportunity" (political) and "obligation" (civilizational, scientific, philanthropic) to demonstrate the imperial possibilities of the particular political and cultural moment in 1926, Breasted mobilized Rockefeller first and the U.S. State Department later, to pry open the political field in Egypt for U.S. entry through archaeology and appropriation of antiquity. The Breasted-Rockefeller team's strategy was to create an Anglo- American alliance in the Near East, by beginning with the creation of a private-philanthropic corporation for the New Egyptian Museum, controlled by Western archaeologists, with token Egyptian representation. This ambitious and innovative approach to imperialism was spatially and architecturally revealed in the proposed museum's design and in its location in Cairo. That this project failed when it would succeed in later iterations elsewhere, is to be ascribed both to the lack of U.S. power against competing British and French imperialisms at this early stage, as well as to Egyptian nationalism, which identified the Breasted-Rockefeller proposal for the imperial project that it was, and which had begun to recognize Egyptian antiquity as a metaphor for nationalism.

https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59109

And America wasn't the only one. All Europeans were plundering the history of the "Middle East" to bring glory and prestige to the colonial/imperial powers of Europe for a history that was not theirs.


As for the so-called Nefertiti bust, the only reason it is famous is because it is on display in Germany and is OWNED by Germans. It is the ONLY bust of Nefertiti that looks like that. Most images of Nefertiti do NOT look like that but this is what Europeans want to see and this is why this is the ONLY image of Nefertiti you see in books and magazines.

Not to mention the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the bust are controversial and shady at best. And to this day, Germany refuses to return it to Egypt (because it is fake like many tourist artwork seen in Egypt).

https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59109

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
But, it is more naturalistic the way Akenaton wanted so I go with the naturalistic as more resembling how he looked. For me, and this is just personal eyeballing, I don't think the mummy looks like Nefertiti the cheekbones and bridge of nose is different however, the reconstruction does resemble the mummy, without despite the skin color and eye color choice which is dubious at best.

Now do real humans have long faces? Of course

some Fulani men do

<removed images>


check the previous images I posted, the Armana's are very Nubian influenced, Akenaton is wearing Nubian earring and Nefertiti wears Nubian styled wigs.

But in the more regulated early style you don't see that... Akenaton is representing in the Armana style delivering a 3k year postcard with a message it is up to you whether you want to see it or not.

Egypt is in Africa. Period. There is nothing symobolic about it. The Amarna style is nothing more than the "African style" of Art as seen throughout Africa in an Egyptian context. The ancient Egyptians were Africans. The only people who DONT see that are the "European experts" whose job it is to deny the fact that Egypt is in Africa and that the AE were indeed Africans with connections to the rest of Africa.
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capra
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for Doug being on the same continent inevitably draws you into a mystic cultural union that cannot be hindered by wastelands or deserts

mere physical proximity to Asia, connections by land and sea, cannot overcome the ultimate power of arbitrary geographic boundaries

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

As for the so-called Nefertiti bust, the only reason it is famous is because it is on display in Germany and is OWNED by Germans. It is the ONLY bust of Nefertiti that looks like that. Most images of Nefertiti do NOT look like that but this is what Europeans want to see and this is why this is the ONLY image of Nefertiti you see in books and magazines.

Not to mention the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the bust are controversial and shady at best. And to this day, Germany refuses to return it to Egypt (because it is fake like many tourist artwork seen in Egypt).

https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59109 [/QB]

So Germany won't return the bust because the Minister of Antiquities in Egypt will reveal the bust to be fake?
I don't thinks so. Germany has not only that bust but several others of Nefertiti and that unique full color painted one attracts millions of tourist dollars


 -

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the lioness,
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the lioness,
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plaster busts are like realistic base models in the studio of court sculptors like Thutmose (not to be confused with Thutmose the king of the same name). Similarly what are called "reserve heads" .
After they record the basic likeness when they start making permanent sculptures in stone they exaggerate and idealize

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
for Doug being on the same continent inevitably draws you into a mystic cultural union that cannot be hindered by wastelands or deserts

mere physical proximity to Asia, connections by land and sea, cannot overcome the ultimate power of arbitrary geographic boundaries

No being on the same continent brings you into a physical union with other people from the same continent. And we should assume this is the case before imposing or assuming closer relations with populations farther away via travel. This isn't abnormal. Asians are asians because they exist in Asia the landmass with other Asians. Europeans are Europeans because they exist in Europe the landmass with other Europeans. Africans are Africans because they exist in the African landmass with other Africans.

Otherwise, if what you are saying is true, then everybody was everywhere regardless of geography because humans can move anywhere and have done so over time. So Europe is mixed, Asia is mixed and everybody is mixed. So lets be consistent.

The Levant is mixed then. Arabia is mixed then. The Mediterranean is mixed then, etc. But we know some folks want to only apply this rule to certain parts of Africa for obvious reasons.

And again, as far as Nefertiti goes nobody who claims that this bust is an accurate portrait of Nefertiti including skin tone, says this is "indigenous" to the Nile Valley. So obviously such features aren't African. The question is whether or not this is true. Either Nefertiti was an indigenous Egyptian from the Nile Valley and therefore not light skinned like that bust or she was indigenous and the bust is possibly a fraud or altered. Most artwork featuring Nefertiti looks blatantly African with big lips and other features not like the Berlin bust. But conveniently most of those images are downplayed compared to the Berlin bust.

The fact is these are what most of the images of Nefertiti looked like in Egypt (and sure this isn't 100% realistic) but the point is you have two very different versions of Nefertiti. One looking blatantly African and the other looking more "non African".

 -

 -
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Relief_of_Queen_Nefertiti_MET_47.57.1_EGDP020948.jpg

So the question becomes which is accurate? Why display a foreigner with African features if she wasn't African at all?

And no "Afrocentrists" didn't create this artwork. So this is simply calling out the obvious.

As a matter of fact, even from the artists workshop that this bust came from there are many other "realistic variations" of Nefertiti. So which is right? No other royal in Egyptian art has so many different depictions that are so drastically different. Most other depictions of Egyptian royals are so consistent that even without any name on it you can tell who it is. This is the only case in Egyptian art where you have such drastically different depictions of the same person.

And ultimately the issue is that Europeans will obviously be attracted to the Berlin bust because it looks like them. While the African looking images of Nefertiti will be held up by Africans as proof she was African. This isn't rocket science. Of course there was only person named Nefertiti and until we find and positively identify her remains we may never know ultimately her origins.

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Nefertiti_Berl%C3%ADn_07.JPG/470px-Nefertiti_Berl%C3%ADn_07.JPG

A collection of these is here:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Statue_heads_of_Nefertiti


Other art from Amarna which is highly realistic:
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https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/26.7.1396/

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
No being on the same continent brings you into a physical union with other people from the same continent. And we should assume this is the case before imposing or assuming closer relations with populations farther away via travel. This isn't abnormal. Asians are asians because they exist in Asia the landmass with other Asians. Europeans are Europeans because they exist in Europe the landmass with other Europeans. Africans are Africans because they exist in the African landmass with other Africans.

West Asians are more closely related to Europeans than they are to East Asians.

from Cairo, Meroe is as far away as Hattusa; from Luxor, Kerma is as far away as Jerusalem; from Qena, Khartoum is as far away as Baghdad; from the Delta, Eritrea is as far away as Russia (all these by road).

quote:
So Europe is mixed, Asia is mixed and everybody is mixed. So lets be consistent.
everybody *is* mixed.
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Tyrannohotep
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Honestly, I think the Berlin bust is simply faded. It's pretty obvious that the other painted areas of the sculpture (e.g. the crown) are discolored, so why wouldn't the skin be discolored as well? Plus, there are other images of Nefertiti with traces of dark paint still attached.

 -
 -
 -
 -

Furthermore, the orange-ish complexion that people assume the Berlin bust has isn't even typical for AE art. Usually, female Egyptian subjects are painted either yellow (as in Old and Middle Kingdom art) or a shade of mahogany brown similar to their male counterparts (e.g. some New Kingdom art). I haven't seen too many AE portrayals of women that had a naturally pale orange look. So if the Berlin bust was supposed to depict a pale orange complexion in life, it would be unusual in that respect.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
No being on the same continent brings you into a physical union with other people from the same continent. And we should assume this is the case before imposing or assuming closer relations with populations farther away via travel. This isn't abnormal. Asians are asians because they exist in Asia the landmass with other Asians. Europeans are Europeans because they exist in Europe the landmass with other Europeans. Africans are Africans because they exist in the African landmass with other Africans.

West Asians are more closely related to Europeans than they are to East Asians.

from Cairo, Meroe is as far away as Hattusa; from Luxor, Kerma is as far away as Jerusalem; from Qena, Khartoum is as far away as Baghdad; from the Delta, Eritrea is as far away as Russia (all these by road).

quote:
So Europe is mixed, Asia is mixed and everybody is mixed. So lets be consistent.
everybody *is* mixed.

All these by road? I have no idea about Russia and Baghdad, but places like Cairo, the Delta, Eritrea, Luxor, Kerma, Meroe etc are hard to navigate. Even by modern day standards, by road.
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capra
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yes of course, i'm just using google maps here for purposes of illustration, not a detailed simulation of routes used when donkeys were a new-fangled invention. and you ain't kidding, google maps says *100 hours* to Khartoum and 36 hours to Tbilisi. [Eek!] i didn't realize it was *that* bad.
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Ish Gebor
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Oh okay, and that is of course when conditions are "perfect". The extreme cold during the night and evening slows down, the extreme heat during the day slows down. The sometimes difficult accessible mountain regions slow down and the desert will slow down.

But yeah, donkeys were a new-fangled invention.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
the point is you have two very different versions of Nefertiti. One looking blatantly African and the other looking more "non African".

 -


 -
(enlargement detail of previous)


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Relief_of_Queen_Nefertiti_MET_47.57.1_EGDP020948.jpg


"blatantly African" as compared to African but not blatantly?

The piece above is highly distorted. A human being cannot look like that so this piece can't be considered.
Some Amarna art is realistic. Other Amrana art is highly stylized and unrealistic with exaggerated features. Above we have an impossible skull shape


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

So the question becomes which is accurate? Why display a foreigner with African features if she wasn't African at all?


Because there is a wide diversity of features in Africa

and in addition not everything is one or the other. Something could be half of one half of the other


 -

^^ this person is half European


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

No other royal in Egyptian art has so many different depictions that are so drastically different.


what you are saying is not true. Try going back over all the Akhenaten art in this thread.

Then move on to Ramses II

 -
Rameses II


 -
Ramses II

 -
Ramses II

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

Most other depictions of Egyptian royals are so consistent that even without any name on it you can tell who it is. This is the only case in Egyptian art where you have such drastically different depictions of the same person.


Simply not true.


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

And ultimately the issue is that Europeans will obviously be attracted to the Berlin bust because it looks like them. While the African looking images of Nefertiti will be held up by Africans as proof she was African. This isn't rocket science. Of course there was only person named Nefertiti and until we find and positively identify her remains we may never know ultimately her origins.

 -
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Nefertiti_Berl%C3%ADn_07.JPG/470px-Nefertiti_Berl%C3%ADn_07.JPG



^^^ what you have here is another unfinished piece from the museum in Berlin. They have several and including Akhenaten and Tutankhamun.
This is Nefertiti. Below the exact same Nefertiti piece in side view next to the famous one. You will notice the same black marks behind the cheek and thin line across the neck >>


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the lioness,
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 -
3 sculptures of Nefertiti

Here we have three sculptures of Nefertiti.
Each has similarities and differences.

One thing about "blatantly African" lips is that nor only are they fuller but the width of the whole mouth is wider from side to side on the face. Nevertheless one cannot say lips not like that are necessarily less African. They just have less crossover in appearance to Europeans. Europeans are derived from a particular type of African from the North East Africa some scientists call the Basal Eurasian. However perhaps there was more than one type of basal Eurasian
As I have shown in my previous post the sculpture at left is highly similar to the famous bust in the middle in the side view profile. Here is also similar but the one on the left has fuller lips and a wider mouth.
The sculpture on the right looks younger as compared to the famous middle one. The mouth is very slightly not as wide side to side as the middle bust and ears largest of the three and chin slightly narrower.
All are similar. I feel like the left one is more similar overall to the middle one and looks like a person of the same age, maybe 30s to 40s. The one at right looks like a person in their 20s, my opinion

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Fourty2Tribes
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If I was casting Nefertiti with Americans I'd go with her...
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She is a little pale though so even I would white wash a tad. [Razz]

Its that heart shape face
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The late Lee Thompson had an Armanaish look to him too.  -

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Tyrannohotep
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Graph on population divergences within African populations, as well as their varying affinities with non-Africans

Note that even West and Central Africans are less divergent from OOA populations than the Khoisan peoples of South Africa. And East Africans are closer still to OOA.

It's been pointed out ad nauseum here for over half a decade, but Team Afrocentric needs to get away from this obsolete notion that African populations can all be genetically grouped into a singular, exclusive "race" or cluster. Even if you limit your scope to SSA, you'll find certain Africans are genetically closer (i.e. less divergent) to OOA than others.

And if you think about it, that shouldn't be a problem for us. It doesn't mean that the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa would be less African than Khoisan or West Africans. They'd still be native to the continent, and therefore they'd still appear (phenotypically) "black" to modern casual observers. It's not like their ancestors would have magically turned into Arabs the moment they stepped foot into the Sahara. Hell, if Cheddar Man and other prehistoric Eurasians have shown us anything in the last few years, it's that modern humans didn't even turn pale the moment they crossed the Sinai into Eurasia.

You people really are too attached to racialized thinking here.

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Tyrannohotep
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That said, the common refrain that "AE would have been closer genetically/culturally to Middle Easterners than to SSA" seems to be often used in a specious manner in my observation. The genetic argument may not be technically wrong when you consider population substructure in Africa, but look at the graph I posted earlier. Again, you'll find that even West/Central Africans are closer genetically (as in less divergent) to OOAs than are Khoisan. Yeah they're both commonly lumped together as "sub-Saharan Africans" in popular discourse. It should go to show you that "SSA" itself isn't a singular population cluster, let alone a single cultural grouping.

Furthermore, it's no secret that Africa is a vast continent. For example, Zululand is as far away from Nigeria as California is from New England. Again, that hasn't stopped anyone from lumping Nigerian and South African cultures into a shared "sub-Saharan" category.

The True Size of Africa

Not that I'm necessarily arguing that SSA isn't a useful label at all. It's not my favorite phrase personally, since its usage has often gone hand in hand with the assumption that only SSA are authentically African whereas North Africans have always been transplants from Eurasia. However, when I see posters like beyoku or Swenet use the label, I presume they're using it as a familiar catch-all for African ancestry that's not North African. And you do need such catch-alls when you're comparing and contrasting one specific region of a continent with all the others. Besides, I'm damn tired of bickering over nomenclature.

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Ish Gebor
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Must see,

A Convicted Forger Calls Nefertiti's Bust a Fake

https://youtu.be/Cckwn7jN3Ms

—Smithsonian Channel

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
Your example falls within the range of an Afro-American look. But you ignored the example I provided of the North Africans with brown complexion and curly hair who are unmistakenly NOT AA. Like the Lioness pointed out, how black is viewed in American society is based on several physical traits, not just one as you imply.

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
This is the black situation, especially with Saharan Africa.


A man is treated as black and subject to some of the cruelest experiences ever recorded, but he looks like this:

http://hw-static.worldstarhiphop.com/u/pic/2016/05/Fx7HjPrg3tPc.jpg

Sees people that there were Africans that built pyramids that look like this:

http://scontent-a.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/10246206_242932122582287_1008794400_n.jpg

http://scontent-b.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xfa1/t51.2885-15/10570013_772641219452872_1146525628_n.jpg

But is told that blacks are only blacks if they look like this:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/y7kjtNhleTE/hqdefault.jpg


Most people in the West will confuse the average Berber for being biracially mixed black. Or Afro-Latin. But there are certainly African Americans with this look.


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In contrast and comparison:


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Posts: 19028 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tropicals redacted
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@capra

quote:
for Doug being on the same continent inevitably draws you into a mystic cultural union that cannot be hindered by wastelands or deserts

mere physical proximity to Asia, connections by land and sea, cannot overcome the ultimate power of arbitrary geographic boundaries

quote:

from Cairo, Meroe is as far away as Hattusa; from Luxor, Kerma is as far away as Jerusalem; from Qena, Khartoum is as far away as Baghdad; from the Delta, Eritrea is as far away as Russia (all these by road).

Physical anthropological studies show that ancient Egyptians show greater similarities with other Africans in North-East Africa than with populations in the Near East/Middle East(or Russia).

The cultural basis was also African. An obvious example being headrests which you don't get in the other regions you cited.

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
Physical anthropological studies show that ancient Egyptians show greater similarities with other Africans in North-East Africa than with populations in the Near East/Middle East(or Russia).

The cultural basis was also African. An obvious example being headrests which you don't get in the other regions you cited.

point is that Egypt is not more geographically connected to other relevant bits of Africa than to Asia merely because it is on the same arbitrarily-defined continent. not to dismiss actual evidence of relationships.
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the lioness,
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