posted
So we know that the Abusir site was Lower Egyptian (which means whatever mixture from the Near East dated from predynastic times would probably be there more). The earliest mummies date centuries after Near Eastern rule and mass migration. But the headline stating that the Abusir mummies were more closely related to Near Easterners has drawn a curious question: When did Near Easterners and Europeans become as white as they are today, with as much frequency as we see today? Even if we're to assume the first Near East migrants lived in Egypt for tens of thousands of years, they wouldn't have looked like a modern European or "white" Levanite. Isolated Near Easterners in Socotra look like this:
And arrived 6kya. They also have little African DNA to explain their appearances. Ancient depictions of Near Easterners also suggest native Syrians and Bedouin had dark skin to some capacity.
Bedouin
Syrian Mercenary
Semitic slave
Knowing an ancient Egyptian shares the same haplogroup as a Near Easterner doesn't answer "race" questions which have been drawing more attention here in the last few days, in part because a haplogroup and subclade can predate the spread of pale skin.
P.S: Were they able to establish the subclades of all 90 mummies? I thought they might've but may've forgotten. If so please post them (or a link/list of their haplogroups) here for people to talk about.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
Bronze Age and prior zevantines carried ancestral forms of pigmentation genes ...like Nigerians
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
the major West Eurasian light colouring SNPs rs1426654-A (SLC25A5) rs16891982-G (SLC45A2), and rs1042602 (TYR) were all present in the Levant 10 000 years ago during Pre-Pottery Neolithic B.
we have no data for most pigmentation alleles in most samples. nothing meaningful from Natufians (they may have been dark-skinned). probably no statistically significant conclusions are possible, but it looks like light skin colouring alleles were less common in the Neolithic than today. by the Bronze Age it seems the derived SLC24A5 allele was fixed (and the blue eye rs1291383 SNP was also present), but it seems likely that the derived SLC45A2 allele was less common in Bronze Age Lebanon than it is today.
so tentatively i'd say it has got lighter over time, based on just these SNPs only a minority of PPNB people would be as light-skinned as your typical modern Lebanese or North Africans.
PS the Early Neolithic Moroccans (IAM) also very little data but what we have was ancestral for both rs1426654 and rs16891982. again though that covers only a fraction of skin colour variation.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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posted
Dinkum, do you *ever* shut the fuck up and read anything anyone else says? what a boring and useless shitposter you are. i'd rather listen to xyyman, god help me.
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MTDNA N is also found amongst other Tribes in Yemen who are closely related to the Socotra
The Mehri people of Yemen carry Sub Saharan African MTDNA at 21% as well as MTDNA N at 24%. The rest of their MTDNA is indigenous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehri_people
quote:Originally posted by capra: Dinkum, do you *ever* shut the fuck up and read anything anyone else says? what a boring and useless shitposter you are. i'd rather listen to xyyman, god help me.
LOL getting the better of you am I? People always turn to insults when they cant get the better of someone.
Admin: Enjoy your vacation.
[ 13. February 2018, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]
Posts: 108 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2018
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posted
shitposters always jump on the ad hominem and ignore the substance. see, you *are* objectively a boring useless shitposter, what the fuck do you think you are telling anyone that they haven't heard before? at least be *creative* with the trolling.
now, i fucking broke down the pigmentation SNPs that the ancient Egyptians mummies had and what they indicate. please, go ahead and explain where i got it wrong.
while you are at it, many other posters have brought up valid points, you might try acknowledging their existence rather than repeating shit over and over.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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posted
Reposting from the other thread for context:
quote:Originally posted by capra:
there is not enough coverage in the ancient samples or at this point even enough understanding of genetics of pigmentation for good prediction of skin colouring. the best coverage sample is JK2911, who is from the Late Period.
his genotype (per genetiker) is rs1426654-A (probably AA) in SLC24A5, rs16891982-CC in SLC45A2, and rs1042602-GG in TYR.
now rs1426654-A (light skin allele) is very common, most MENA people and virtually all Europeans have AA. Pakistanis have like 75% AA, North Indians 50% AA. even Ethiopians, Somalis, and South Indians have ~50-60% allele frequency, so ~30% AA (assuming Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium which we shouldn't really).
rs16891982-G (light skin allele) is less common outside of Europe but it is still pretty frequent in MENA. in Egypt varies from 14% in Aswan to 65% in Alexandria. mostly 50-60% in North Africa. it is only ~15% in North India, 6% in Bangladesh, and almost zero in the Horn. so CC which JK2911 has (homozygous for dark skin allele) would be found in most South Egyptians, South Asians, Horners, etc, but only 10-35% of North Africans.
rs1402602-A (light skin allele) has a somewhat different distribution, it has around 25-40% frequency in northern and middle Europe but reaches ~55% in Tuscans and Sardinians. it reaches almost 50% in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria and Druze from the Levant, ~30% in Arab populations from Israel. (i don't have data for the Horn or most of MENA. also sample sizes are rather small so don't take these AFs as precise.) also surprisingly common in Pakistan where it is about 25% in Sindhis, 30% in Pathans, and 50% in Kalash. so again JK2911 has GG (homozygous for dark skin allele) which only a minority of Mozabites and about half of Pakistanis and Israeli Arabs would have. no idea about Egypt.
now as far as these 3 genes go over 90% of Mozabites would be lighter-skinned than JK2911, as would most modern Delta Egyptians and Levantine Arabs. 30% of Horners would be as light. average Southern Egyptians or Pakistanis would be closest.
however even these three rather large-effect variants account for only a minority of the variation in human skin colour, so really could be anything from fairly dark brown to light olive.
but you could always look at paintings and mummy skin lol
Reposted in cased you missed the above.
@Capra: Are there any studies you can provide that could demonstrate to us the frequencies of these alleles? Are you saying southern Egyptians have both alleles?
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posted
We know they weren't white, else we would have their entire pigment gene profile instead of one light skin gene. One light skin gene means they were lighter than Dinkas. Skip Gates was predicted to have light skin so they would have to be Darker than Skip Gates and lighter than Dinkas.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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posted
^they don't have results for "one light skin gene", they (or rather JK2911) have the light skin allele at 1 locus and the dark skin allele at 2 other loci. darn incompetent white supremacists conspirators.
Oshun, it's been a while but let me dig it up again.
the ALFRED allele frequency database is very handy but it is missing a lot of populations, no Egyptian samples for these pigmentation genes, but you can find lots of other African populations.
quote:Originally posted by capra: ^they don't have results for "one light skin gene", they (or rather JK2911) have the light skin allele at 1 locus and the dark skin allele at 2 other loci. darn incompetent white supremacists conspirators.
Can you go into more detail about this for lay people?
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
In other words Derived SLC24A5 and Derived SLC45A2 is found all throughout Africa from the Tip of South Africa to Morocco and within the Jungles of Central Africa. Even in old population like non-African Paupans.
Apparently BOTH genes needs to be present SIMULTANEOUSLY for white skin to occur. ...along with other genes. Point? Neither genes originated in Europe. Tishkoff et al and Henn et al 2017
That is why Europeans like Cheddar Man, LA Brana, Loschbour were all black along with North African IAM and Bronze Age Levantines. They all carried the ancestral form of one or BOTH genes. Hat's off to the "olive" skin Maasai or Pygmy. lol! Dick heads!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: In other words Derived SLC24A5 and Derived SLC45A2 is found all throughout Africa from the Tip of South Africa to Morocco and within the Jungles of Central Africa. Even in old population like non-African Paupans.
Apparently BOTH genes needs to be present SIMULTANEOUSLY for white skin to occur. ...along with other genes. Point? Neither genes originated in Europe. Tishkoff et al and Henn et al 2017
That is why Europeans like Cheddar Man, LA Brana, Loschbour were all black along with North African IAM and Bronze Age Levantines. They all carried the ancestral form of one or BOTH genes. Hat's off to the "olive" skin Maasai or Pygmy. lol! Dick heads!
Loci associated with skin pigmentation identified in African populations, Tishkoff, 2017
"we identify variants in or near SLC24A5, MFSD12, DDB1, TMEM138, OCA2 and HERC2 that are significantly associated with skin pigmentation.
Functional analyses indicate that MFSD12 encodes a lysosomal protein that affects melanogenesis in zebrafish and mice, and that mutations in melanocyte-specific regulatory regions near DDB1/TMEM138 correlate with expression of UV response genes under selection in Eurasians.
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