posted
I see Egyptsearch didn't get a hold of this study yet... Anyways, NO derailing/offtopic nonsense otherwise it will be removed or worse. Anyhow...
quote: In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we deep-sequence the whole non-repetitive portion of the Y chromosome in 104 males selected as representative of haplogroups which are currently found to the north and to the south of the Sahara. We identify 5,966 mutations, from which we extract 142 informative markers then genotyped in about 8,000 subjects from 145 African, Eurasian and African American populations. We find that the coalescence age of the trans-Saharan haplogroups dates back to the last Green Sahara, while most northern African or sub-Saharan clades expanded locally in the subsequent arid phase.
Conclusions
quote: Our findings suggest that the Green Sahara promoted human movements and demographic expansions, possibly linked to the adoption of pastoralism. Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events
Now the deal breaker for MANY with this study was the fact that E-M2 may in fact be ancient North Africa. I've seen this image posted around ES a lot and could E-M2 really have migrated down into what is today West Africa during the wet phase of the Sahara.
But a disappointing thing that many pointed out was that there were no Sudanese samples. Anyways thoughts?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why is slavery always used to explain south Sahara people moving at that time? If people are coming into Africa to take them as slaves what's stopping those Africans from moving on their one free will? As using boats seem less efficient in the Sahara slave trade sense they weren't going that far.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
| IP: Logged |
I just saw this. Busy at work these days. But a quick glance put oldest node of E-M2 at 11Kyo. The youngest at 200y0! E-M35 is 35Kyo.
Where is Swenet? He! HE! HE! I need to break it down and post to ESR and ES.
As I said modern West Africans are new to West Africa.
Wow! this is the paper I may have been waiting on.
Where is AstenB and the other African linage experts? Capra , Elmaestro .....and Sage.
All we need to do is overlay these nodes on a map of Africa. Wow!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: Now the deal breaker for MANY with this study was the fact that E-M2 may in fact be ancient North Africa. I've seen this image posted around ES a lot and could E-M2 really have migrated down into what is today West Africa during the wet phase of the Sahara.
But where was E-M2 before the LGAM?
Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?
Did GGP move into the greening Sahara then go back to GGA after current dry Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?
I'm downloading the research article now and I hope our old friends Trombetta, Watson, Dugoujon, and Cruciani considered the time between 20 and 10 thousand years ago in West and Central Africa and what those folk did when the rainforests moved north forcing them north toward the Green Sahara.
@Thereal For Africanists and others studying Africa(ns) Africans are denied active agency. Africa(ns) are only passive receivers. Africans are stay at home non-movers.
Genetic studies on Africans throw the word admixed around like its a natural. But do a search "are admixed" populations and see how often that phrase is used for European peoples.
@Xyyman I'm right here. I talked about E-M2 plenty in the past. Gonna take 3 days to digest and do corrobative research before I say anything about this article's particulars.
Meanwhile you owe me some come back on the reduced R0a phylogeny I doctored to show the basal nodes in the Brave New Era thread.
= - = E-M2 in context Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
The question is where is the youngest nodes of E-M2....like 200years old? Location? Bantu Expansion?
What is the node of R-V88 compared to West Africa and Southern Europe.
Man this could answer a lot of questions.
As I said they will NOT find E-M2 in West Africa beyond 5000years.
I am surprised on the age of R-V88. Now I am curious about Villabruna he is dated @14,000ya. Something does not add up.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is a potential for E-M2 to be just as old as L2 and L1 in North Africa, since these hgs are today associated with E-M2. And L2 was found in PPN. But this paper doesn't provide any updates on E-M2 lineages of that age in North Africa. Unless I'm missing something. But what IS interesting to me about this paper, as far as E-M2, is that R-V88 and E-M2 in North Africa could signal a Central African migration back to North Africa in ancient times. This could explain Egyptian-Chadic linguistic affinities and the spike of R-V88 in Siwa Egyptians.
quote:The marked grammatical and lexicographic affinities of Ancient Egyptian with Chadic are well-known, and consistent Nilotic cultural, religious and political patterns are detectable in the formation of the first Egyptian kingships.
posted
^on E-M2 and R-V88 node is a node does matter where is is geographically located.
@Sage. I got you on R0a. Just too busy last couple of days.
I just popped in to see what's new. This paper has a break down of nodes and age so that chart you posted above may be obsolete.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
If I am reading this correctly. The node should be equivalent to a sub-clade within a uniparental-haplogroup. Still need to digest the paper. HWich means to say if there isn't a geographical pattern then that could mean possible forced migration ala slavery or something similar. That is why it is imperative we look at these things within a geographical context. And ignore the BS "slavery" or "back-migration' lies.
when I get time.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^on E-M2 and R-V88 node is a node does matter where is is geographically located.
What do you mean?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Why is slavery always used to explain south Sahara people moving at that time? If people are coming into Africa to take them as slaves what's stopping those Africans from moving on their one free will? As using boats seem less efficient in the Sahara slave trade sense they weren't going that far.
Notice how they NEVER bring up European slavery but that's a whole other story.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
| IP: Logged |
I just saw this. Busy at work these days. But a quick glance put oldest node of E-M2 at 11Kyo. The youngest at 200y0! E-M35 is 35Kyo.
Where is Swenet? He! HE! HE! I need to break it down and post to ESR and ES.
As I said modern West Africans are new to West Africa.
Wow! this is the paper I may have been waiting on.
Where is AstenB and the other African linage experts? Capra , Elmaestro .....and Sage.
All we need to do is overlay these nodes on a map of Africa. Wow!
I don't deserve the credit. I got it from beyoku and others. I just decided to post it here.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
| IP: Logged |
IMO posters like Elmaestro, Swenet or beyoku can answer that MUCH better than I can at the moment.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
My posts aint private messages. They open to all the readership. I can't force nobody into dialog.
But you can comment on my line of questioning please. We all just layman here. Even if you don't feel informed enough, like they used to say 'out of the mouth of babes.'
Peeked the report and disappointed not a measly nothing about E-M33. Not a minor annoyance. Will go on reading the study, pouring over the supplements, and refreshing hardcopy prehistory of W Afr from Cameroon to the Atlantic and Gulf of Guinea to Sahel.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: There is a potential for E-M2 to be just as old as L2 and L1 in North Africa, since these hgs are today associated with E-M2. And L2 was found in PPN. But this paper doesn't provide any updates on E-M2 lineages of that age in North Africa. Unless I'm missing something. But what IS interesting to me about this paper, as far as E-M2, is that R-V88 and E-M2 in North Africa could signal a Central African migration back to North Africa in ancient times. This could explain Egyptian-Chadic linguistic affinities and the spike of R-V88 in Siwa Egyptians.
quote:The marked grammatical and lexicographic affinities of Ancient Egyptian with Chadic are well-known, and consistent Nilotic cultural, religious and political patterns are detectable in the formation of the first Egyptian kingships.
This will have implications for the work of Asar, Obenga, Clyde, Mboli, etc. Based on the dates of M2 in North Africa, Middle Egyptian could be an influenced form of ancient Egyptian. In other words, to some degree, Central African-Egyptian commonalities might reflect Chadic influences that weren't in the Egyptian language during earlier dynastic and predynastic times. In which case we would not be dealing with genetic affinities (but with language contact).
Not that I changed my mind about Negro-Egyptian commonalities being largely a consequence of Mesolithic and Neolithic dispersals into Sub-Saharan Africa.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote: The positive samples from ancient Egypt exclusively originated from the Middle Kingdom tomb, while no molecular evidence for ancient Leishmania DNA was found in the Pre- to Early Dynastic and the New Kingdom to Late Period specimens.
posted
haven't got a chance to read thoroughly yet. i'd like to see E1a, E2, B2a etc too but i doubt this is the last we will see from this set of samples.
btw keep in mind Francalacci's ginormous sample of 1200 Sardinians is in here too so Southern Europe will be numerically overrepresented.
in this study "admixed" means New World. including white people from Utah.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?
Did GGP move into the greening Sahara then go back to GGA after current dry Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?
genetically or archaeologically? i haven't seen any genetic study with enough detail to even begin to sort that out. archaeologically, you probably know better than me, seems to have been quite a variety of tool-making methods around, but the small quartz tools made by the people who reoccupied Ounjougou in central Mali somewhat over 11 000 years ago (already with a few sherds of pottery) may be linked to the vaguely-defined quartz microlithic tradition found at Shum Laka in western Cameroon 30 000 years ago and in southern Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire 15 000 years ago. perhaps with origins in East Africa. at Iwo Eleru found at the same level as the archaic-looking person.
the Faleme Valley in eastern Senegal was apparently occupied throughout the Ogolian with varied lithic industries, i don't know how it connects to anything later.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: But where was E-M2 before the LGAM?
Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?
Did GGP move into the greening Sahara then go back to GGA after current dry Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?
Tagging Archeological sites with Uniparentals? Xyyman is slightly right about "West African" E-M2 being kinda young. I wouldn't look towards Guinea to define the early presence of E-M2. Just a slight glimpse at the patterns of coalescence as well as upstream distribution suggests that E-M2 had a northern emergence at the very least Sudanic. However, regardless, your explanation might not be far from the truth, it's just that GGP came to the green Sahara without and left with M2.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
Is it impossible MSA/LSA GGPs took something to the north that they not only came back with but others there picked up and kept?
Is it so GGPs were just passive receptors their women breeding for E-M2 to the point the northbound GGP men were diminished near to the point of no return to GGA?
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: But where was E-M2 before the LGAM?
Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?
Did GGP move into the greening Sahara then go back to GGA after current dry Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?
Tagging Archeological sites with Uniparentals? Xyyman is slightly right about "West African" E-M2 being kinda young. I wouldn't look towards Guinea to define the early presence of E-M2. Just a slight glimpse at the patterns of coalescence as well as upstream distribution suggests that E-M2 had a northern emergence at the very least Sudanic. However, regardless, your explanation might not be far from the truth, it's just that GGP came to the green Sahara without and left with M2.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Is there a study that tracks Gulf of Guinea peoples' movement into the greening Sahara?
Did GGP move into the greening Sahara then go back to GGA after current dry Sahara began drying out in the mid-Holocene?
genetically or archaeologically? i haven't seen any genetic study with enough detail to even begin to sort that out. archaeologically, you probably know better than me, seems to have been quite a variety of tool-making methods around, but the small quartz tools made by the people who reoccupied Ounjougou in central Mali somewhat over 11 000 years ago (already with a few sherds of pottery) may be linked to the vaguely-defined quartz microlithic tradition found at Shum Laka in western Cameroon 30 000 years ago and in southern Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire 15 000 years ago. perhaps with origins in East Africa. at Iwo Eleru found at the same level as the archaic-looking person.
the Faleme Valley in eastern Senegal was apparently occupied throughout the Ogolian with varied lithic industries, i don't know how it connects to anything later.
posted
Nothing really ground breaking here meaning that we (or those who are aware of the wet sahara phase) understood already that it was populated by Africans who then moved elsewhere as the Sahara dried up.
But still it would be nice to get some old remains from the green Sahara and try and extract some DNA. uan muhuggiag type DNA.
But it is interesting how when they do studies of African DNA they include Europeans and folks from all over the planet but when they do ancient European DNA they stick to Europe and mostly exclude Africa.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not sure what you meant by "Negro" Egyptian but I agree the connection to West Africans have with the Nile Valley is Neo/Mesolithic or pre AE. That we agree one. I don’t think the genetic connection is post AE or due to the fall of AE. But undoubtedly they are all Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet:
Not that I changed my mind about Negro-Egyptian commonalities being largely a consequence of Mesolithic and Neolithic dispersals into Sub-Saharan Africa.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Holy shyte! This paper is a game changer. I am getting problems to post quote because of parenthesis HTML errors
I am not done reading but....wow...this is a bomb shell study. It looks like they are exposing the lies. Are they breaking rank? Lol! As I predicted. Are they accusing past researchers of doctoring results and/or hiding information? SMH Are they saying that E-M2 dispersal are from North Africa? This I getting good. He! HE! He!
Quote --------------------- "consistent with the tree reported in phase 3 of the 1000 Genomes Project . However, we found 11 subclades (branches 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 79, 81, 82, 95, 98 and 99) which **share no markers** with the 262 E-M2 chromosomes analysed by Poznik and collegues. It is worth noting that branches 72 and 81 are two deep sister lineages within the E-M2 main multifurcation and both of them include chromosomes from northern Africa. Similarly, the other terminal lineages absent in the 1000 Genomes Project’s tree are mainly represented by samples from northern Africa or, to a lesser extent, from the northernmost regions of sub-Saharan Africa (i.e. the central Sahel)"
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Why is slavery always used to explain south Sahara people moving at that time? If people are coming into Africa to take them as slaves what's stopping those Africans from moving on their one free will? As using boats seem less efficient in the Sahara slave trade sense they weren't going that far.
Because this is the old reference they have / use when it deals with Africa. Read old racist 17th,18th and 19th century anthropology and history when they deal with Africa. When you look at the side-notes or foot-notes, you'll see what references they have used in the paper.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am not done reading but....wow...this is a bomb shell study. It looks like they are exposing the lies. Are they breaking rank? Lol! As I predicted. Are they accusing past researchers of doctoring results and/or hiding information? SMH Are they saying that E-M2 dispersal are from North Africa? This I getting good. He! HE! He! As Kdolo said. Within their admission of their past lies they replace it with another lie. They provided no data for European version of R-V88, bummer!
Quote --------------------- Outside the African continent, two rare R-V88 sub-lineages (R-M18 and R-V35) have been observed in Near East and southern Europe (particularly in Sardinia). Because of its ethno-geographic distribution in the central Sahel, R-V88 has been linked to the spread of the Chadic branch of the Afroasiatic linguistic family.
In spite of their genetic differentiation, however, northern and sub-Saharan Africa **share** at least four patrilineages at different frequencies, namely A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88.
In this context, rare Y lineages with a relic geographic distribution can be highly informative regarding human migrations across the Sahara. Thus, considering their frequency distribution, the four trans-Saharan lineages A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88 could represent the remains of the Saharan MSY genetic landscape before the desertification, CONTRARY to the USUAL interpretation involving recent gene flow events such as the trans- Saharan Arab slave trade. In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we performed targeted next generation sequencing (NGS) of ~ 3.3 Mb of 104 Y chromosomes mostly belonging to these four lineages. We also analysed the geographic distribution of 142 informative single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) by genotyping about 8000 male subjects from 145 worldwide populations (including 17 populations from literature), with a particular focus on the African ethnic groups. Our findings were consistent with the hypothesis that the Green Sahara allowed extensive human movements, excluding recent historical events, such as the Arab slave trade, as a major determinant of the male gene pool of present-day northern African populations.
four precisely radiocarbon-dated ancient specimens as calibration points (Additional file 1: Table S1). In the set of 104 samples from our lab collection, we identified 5966 SNPs. Interestingly, 3044 variants (51 %) out of the 5966 were *******not reported in previous studies***** and this figure is significantly greater than that reported by Hallast et al. ------
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
To those who are following I am trying to verify their suggestion that R-V88 is European in origin but A3-M13 found in Europeans is African in origin. I see no data. Swenet, Sage, Elamestro, Capra, Ish, others?
For the record. E-M2 is dated as 11kya and it youngest node or sub-clade is dated only 200years ago. E-M2 will NOT be found in West African aDNA prior to 5000years ago. These ancient West African will NOT be closely related to modern West Africans. The mutation had not occurred as yet. E-M35 is almost 3X as old as E-M2.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I misread this first statement. They dated based upon archeology not carbon dating. White people and their games. --- Quotes: By calibration with the four ***archeologically*** dated specimens, we obtained a mutation rate of 0.735 × 10−9/site/ year, which is consistent with previously published estimates and which was used to obtain an accurate estimate of the coalescence age of the tree nodes, with a particular focus on the four trans-Saharan clades.
E-M2. It is worth noting that branches 72 and 81 are two deep sister lineages within the E-M2 main multifurcation (Fig. 2) and both of them include chromosomes from northern Africa. Similarly, the other terminal lineages absent in the 1000 Genomes Project’s tree are mainly represented by samples from northern Africa or, to a lesser extent, from the northernmost regions of sub-Saharan Africa (i.e. the central Sahel) (Fig. 2b).
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
What are you looking at? They have demonstrated that E-M2 in North Africa is NOT due to Slavery it been present in North Africa since before the "Arabs" arrived. Interestingly they are stating that other researchers have historically hidden that data. I knew it!! But they cleared up some lies and replaced it with another lie. These Europeans just can't come clean?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
all the four archaeologically-dated remains - Loschbour, Kotias, Bichon, and Ust' Ishim - have direct radiocarbon dates obtained from their bones, xyyman. do five minutes of research, man.
"The topology and geographic distribution of both A3-M13 and E-M2 suggest that these lineages were brought to the Sahara from the southern regions, while E-M78 and R-V88 seem to have followed the opposite route."
so no they are not saying it came from the north. of course it is possible it came from the north, but a couple of E-M2* samples from the Atlas and Siwa Oasis are not exactly a smoking gun here. there is still a basal branch specific to Atlantic West Africa as well as quite a high diversity of V43 there. mind you this study contains more samples from Morocco alone that from West Africa total.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
| IP: Logged |
posted
Am I missing something on R-V88? There is no data to conclude R-V88 is of Sardinian origin. The data they presented prove the opposite? Doesn't it? The "ROOT node" of R-V88 are West Africans(Cameroon and others), North East Africans(Siwa/Levant Bedouins) and Europeans(Sardinians). This indicates a genetic connection but ancient separation. We are back to an ancient connection between West Africans and "Europeans...if you considered Sardinians Europeans. Lol! They also admit the yDNA A found in Sardinia is of African origin during or prior to the Green Sahara Europeans do not carry sub-nodes and there is clear bifurcation between Africans of the North West and North East.
@Capra - I will get back to E-M2. I am on R-V88 now. Europeans lie. I have gone past that. We will get back to E-M2. R-V88 shows that. Looks like the Sahel was the dispersal route for R-V88 or across the Green Sahara. Look at node 233. Help me out here.
Clearly there is separation between West/North West Africa and North East Africa. Commonality =Sahelians? I will like to see what node the R-V88 found in the Levant Bedouins and Iran align with. Also the few found in Iberia.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Not sure what you meant by "Negro" Egyptian but I agree the connection to West Africans have with the Nile Valley is Neo/Mesolithic or pre AE. That we agree one. I don’t think the genetic connection is post AE or due to the fall of AE. But undoubtedly they are all Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet:
Not that I changed my mind about Negro-Egyptian commonalities being largely a consequence of Mesolithic and Neolithic dispersals into Sub-Saharan Africa.
Just to clarify, I meant linguistic Negro-Egyptian commonalities.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
So far what I find from the research data
E-M2 probably expanded from north Cameroon where it coalesced 4000 years earlier from LGAM Mayo Louti cultural site men who were likely ancestral to the Fali. Green Sahara E-M2 moved north from Cameroon following the northward expanding fertile grassland landscapes.
I haven't read the Cruciani Trombetta text. This project they designed and supervised is the latest of their ongoing studies.
quote:Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans -Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3- M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indi -cates a Europe-to-Africa migration.Indeed,our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52].
What are you going on about... It's over. lmao
@Tukuler If you're asking if stoneage GGP left footprints in North Africa.. I'd say, prior to the Holocene I'm sure... during and after I'm not so sure. I don't think the markers in the study (M2, M78, V88) or even M33 can be defined by Stone age GG populations. We're not even entirely informed on the anthropological consistencies between early GG populations. The question should be, "to what extent do we expect continuity from stone age GG populations to modern populations." To put it simply, Xyyman was on to something when he criticized the bantu expansion.. but not for actually criticizing the expansion, but for questioning continuity in west Africa.
However,Autosomally I do beleive that prior to the Bantu expansion, Stonage GGP signatures can be represented in someway by widespread Saharan, central and West SSA people mid-Holocene.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
The author said "archaeologically dated" NOT Carbon dated. Keep in mind Villabruna (R-V88) was dated at 14,000years old!!! I need to find out the dating method used for Villabruna.
That is the problem with these studies. The methods are not consistent. We need apples vs apples.
@ ELmaestro - When you have been looking at this as long as I have you know when they are lying. Where is the proof or data that R-V88 is of Sardinian origin? Looking at the chart I mocked up. It show the opposite. The game is indeed over in favor of an African origin. Africans carry the basal Nodes **AND** sub-nodes(subclades). Sardinia which is geographically Africa has the basal node ONLY which is indicative of an ancient but definite connection to Sahara Africa
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
just google it xyyman. Villabruna is also directly radiocarbon dated. they all are. but whatever irrelevant tangent you are on please take it to the V88 thread that i have just bumped, let's leave this one for the more interesting findings.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
| IP: Logged |
posted
Puts some charts up when you read and process the data. I don't see it. I will get to E-M2 now.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: So far what I find from this study's data
E-M2 probably expanded from north Cameroon where it coalesced 4000 years earlier from LGAM Mayo Louti cultural site men who were likely ancestral to the Fali.
I haven't read the text.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
@Tukuler & Capra(if it applies) M2* is only found in chad and in North Africa, The next most basal branch coalesced to only 5.3ya which is carried by he Mende people and a Senegambian. Every clade that coalesced over 6.5kya is found in North Africa. U209 seems to be the Cameroonian/central African clade of E-M2 and basal clades of that (U209*) has a higher respective frequency in north Africa, see figure 5... Xyyman posted a botched version of it.
E-M2 is at the very least Sahelian (possibly Chadian.)
@XYYMAN Take Capras Advice About the V88 Stuff Please.Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Now why would I post conclusions before processing data?
I will put up the charts I made that lead me to conclude as I did. Remember, without data...
Didn't read first so as not to get colored by Cruciani's and Trombetta's way of thinking.
For the nunce, regular life beckons. Will post before the weekend.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Puts some charts up when you read and process the data. I don't see it. I will get to E-M2 now.
posted
thanks for the site list Tukuler, some of those are new to me.
Elmaestro i don't see why an expansion from a savanna belt refuge across the Green Sahara wouldn't leave old remnants in North Africa - that seems to be exactly what the authors are arguing. why not West Africa? granted the diversity in southern Nigeria is pretty low but that's just Esan and Yoruba.
i too should be getting back to work.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Well maybe you just heard of them under another name.
quote:Originally posted by capra: thanks for the site list Tukuler, some of those are new to me.
Elmaestro i don't see why an expansion from a savanna belt refuge across the Green Sahara wouldn't leave old remnants in North Africa - that seems to be exactly what the authors are arguing. why not West Africa? granted the diversity in southern Nigeria is pretty low but that's just Esan and Yoruba.
i too should be getting back to work.
So far you can Argue a Mende Origin based on diversity and probably phylogeny, but it doesn't hold a candle to Chad topologically imo. I don't see a reason why Older and more diverse clades won't be prevalent in West Africa if E-M2 originated there. there's a gap about the age of the oldest coalescent clade found in West Africa between it and basal E-M2. What would cause that in West Africa; why would west African distribution be restricted until the holocene if it originated there?
2 Inane Posts Removed. V88's *Origin* Must be Discussed ElsewherePosts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
Quote: “Tagging Archeological sites with Uniparentals? Xyyman is ‘slightly right’ about "West African" E-M2 being kinda young. ……...”
The point on E-M2. There are indigenous nodes of E-M2 in North Africa(which was hidden and NOT reported by other researchers per this paper). Significance? E-M2 cannot possibly be of West African origin. It will not be found in aDNA of West Africans. Next, we need to do a node-by-node break down of E-M2 regarding age and location. ElMaestro is part right ….But the Sahel was the conduit from East Africa to North and West Africa. Sahel was not where it originated. If E1b was included that would have helped nail it down. But irregardless, there is clearly indigenous E-M2 found in North Africa that has absolutely nothing to do with “slavery”….and that is what he researchers set out to prove.
recap
________________________________________ I am not done reading but....wow...this is a bomb shell study. It looks like they are exposing the lies. Are they breaking rank? Lol! As I predicted. Are they accusing past researchers of doctoring results and/or hiding information? SMH Are they saying that E-M2 dispersal are from North Africa? This I getting good. He! HE! He! As Kdolo said. Within their admission of their past lies they replace it with another lie. They provided no data for European version of R-V88, bummer!
Quote --------------------- Outside the African continent, two rare R-V88 sub-lineages (R-M18 and R-V35) have been observed in Near East and southern Europe (particularly in Sardinia). Because of its ethno-geographic distribution in the central Sahel, R-V88 has been linked to the spread of the Chadic branch of the Afroasiatic linguistic family.
In spite of their genetic differentiation, however, northern and sub-Saharan Africa **share** at least four patrilineages at different frequencies, namely A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88.
In this context, rare Y lineages with a relic geographic distribution can be highly informative regarding human migrations across the Sahara. Thus, considering their frequency distribution, the four trans-Saharan lineages A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88 could represent the remains of the Saharan MSY genetic landscape before the desertification, CONTRARY to the USUAL interpretation involving recent gene flow events such as the trans- Saharan Arab slave trade. In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we performed targeted next generation sequencing (NGS) of ~ 3.3 Mb of 104 Y chromosomes mostly belonging to these four lineages. We also analysed the geographic distribution of 142 informative single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) by genotyping about 8000 male subjects from 145 worldwide populations (including 17 populations from literature), with a particular focus on the African ethnic groups. Our findings were consistent with the hypothesis that the Green Sahara allowed extensive human movements, excluding recent historical events, such as the Arab slave trade, as a major determinant of the male gene pool of present-day northern African populations.
four precisely radiocarbon-dated ancient specimens as calibration points (Additional file 1: Table S1). In the set of 104 samples from our lab collection, we identified 5966 SNPs. Interestingly, 3044 variants (51 %) out of the 5966 were *******not reported in previous studies***** and this figure is significantly greater than that reported by Hallast et al.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: .. Xyyman posted a botched version of it.
E-M2 is at the very least Sahelian (possibly Chadian.)
@XYYMAN Take Capras Advice About the V88 Stuff Please.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Upon further analysis I may lean more towards ElMaestro- Looking at this. Central Sahel has the oldest Node. Not sure what is “Central Sahel”? Are we talking Chad or Sudan Sahel region. That may explain why Rameses III was E-M2? Nevertheless, at nodes 93 and 71 there was a split and Great lakes already had E-M2@10.53Kya . Great Lakes E-M2 align with nodes 71-84 and 93. West Africans proper carry few nodes(less diversity) compared to North Africans and Great Lakes Africans. Diasporans carry the younger nodes. In short the data is more indicative of Central Sahel/North East African origin of E-M2. The split occurring about 10K years ago. Nevertheless this dataset do NOT support the supposed Bantu Expansion from West Africa.
Oddly the AFRAM dataset align with Great Lakes nodes of E-M2. Reminds me of that Wally picture thread on Aframs being AEians? Maybe pictures is a thousand words. lol!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: The link isn't working.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Why are you drawing on that tree? It's heavily distorted because it's not suppposed to give a full overview. See the supp pdf for the overview.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
You are right Fig S4 is much better. Someone slap me! Am I seeing this right that E-M2-V2003* is dated 9.08kya…in Southern Europe?
So E-M2 first appears in North, East and Sahel Africa first NOT West Africa proper(Cameroon Area- Bantu Homeland?), then about 10K ya it is dispersed in the near East, Sahel , West Africa proper, NW Africa and the Great lakes.9Kya it is Southern Europe and The Near East. Man I can’t wait for they to start aDNA testing on the ancient Greeks. Benin sickle cell and HLA an all. What are they waiting on? HE! HE! HE!
Keep in mind the dating may be off because as we seen in the past actual aDNA sometimes do not reflect these hypothesis based upon speculative mutation rates. Remember no E-M2 has been found in the aDNA samples except for the AEians dated to about 2000bc.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Keep in mind they will not be sampling an "admixed" southern European as a ...."European". All intent and purposes this person probably "looked" white.
one of the "hidden" datasets? lol!
Maybe that is what happened with the Natufians and Abusirs? We know that mtDNA L has been found in ancient Anatolia/Levant 4-8,000ya and in Iberia etc. But recently these mtDNA L “disappeared”. Europeans and their trickery of lying and hiding data. This author should not be “shocked”. It has been happening all along. Why do you think they haven’t aDNA tested ancient Greeks? They are trying to figure out how to spin the African DNA presence in ancient Greeks…..or remove the data. SMH.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic