quote:The roles of migration, admixture and acculturation in the European transition to farming have been debated for over 100 years. Genome-wide ancient DNA studies indicate predominantly Anatolian ancestry for continental Neolithic farmers, but also variable admixture with local Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Neolithic cultures first appear in Britain c. 6000 years ago (kBP), a millennium after they appear in adjacent areas of northwestern continental Europe. However, the pattern and process of the British Neolithic transition remains unclear. We assembled genome-wide data from six Mesolithic and 67 Neolithic individuals found in Britain, dating from 10.5-4.5 kBP, a dataset that includes 22 newly reported individuals and the first genomic data from British Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Our analyses reveals persistent genetic affinities between Mesolithic British and Western European hunter-gatherers over a period spanning Britain's separation from continental Europe. We find overwhelming support for agriculture being introduced by incoming continental farmers, with small and geographically structured levels of additional hunter-gatherer introgression. We find genetic affinity between British and Iberian Neolithic populations indicating that British Neolithic people derived much of their ancestry from Anatolian farmers who originally followed the Mediterranean route of dispersal and likely entered Britain from northwestern mainland Europe.
quote:We predicted pigmentation characteristics for Cheddar Man and Sven using Hirisplex and a recently-developed method for predicting skin pigmentation26. Previously, predictions on the level of skin pigmentation were mostly derived using two SNPs in SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 that indicate lack of hypo-pigmentation when in the ancestral state. However, here we integrate 36 rather than 2 SNPs allowing more precise prediction. Cheddar Man is predicted to have had dark or dark to black skin, blue/green eyes and dark brown possibly black hair, whereas Sven most likely had intermediate to dark skin pigmentation, brown eyes and black possibly dark brown hair (see Pigmentation section in the Supplementary Materials for a detailed discussion of the results). This is in line with the current hypothesis that alleles commonly associated with lighter skin were introduced in Western Europe by ANFs.
posted
And from the supps, admixture proportions for the ancient individuals analyzed. I'm a bit surprised to see that Cheddar Man (third man down from the top) already has a little snippet of Anatolian Neolithic-like ancestry. Either there was already some admixture from the Anatolian Neolithic trickling north into Cheddar's territory, or it's actually something else and the algorithm misidentified it (there are only two options presented, Anatolian Neolithic and WHG).
posted
basically as expected, he's WHG like other post-Ice-Age Western European foragers. at this time (before ~6200 BC) Britain was still joined to the rest of Europe by Doggerland. the foragers from other locations were not more related to Cheddar Man than to Loschbour (from Belgium), indicating that they were not genetically isolated from the mainland. these British hunter-gatherers were over 90% replaced by incoming Neolithic farmers beginning about 4000 BC. who in turn came from Greece along the Mediterranean Sea coast and then probably into France in the 6th millennium BC.
Loschbour, one of the other WHGs, now changed to predicted intermediate skin colour prediction. wouldn't take any of these predictions too seriously, they are based on forensic tools meant for modern populations.
i expect the f4 ratio does not make then 100% WHG because they are a little different from the WHG reference, not necessarily any real connection to ANF. keep in mind this guy dates to 8500-8200 BC, he is probably slightly older than any of our Levantine Pre-Pottery Neolithic B or Central Anatolian Early Neolithic samples! and he is about 2000 years older than the earliest farmers in Greece, much less Western Europe.
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He reminds me of the Australians that get melanin injections. Like the opposite of Sammy Sosa. Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: I'm a bit surprised to see that Cheddar Man (third man down from the top) already has a little snippet of Anatolian Neolithic-like ancestry.
Look at the narrow scope of the tests. Remember Lazaridis et al's absurd claim "we could not test for North African admixture". It's laughably obvious these researchers are trying to influence public opinion in subtle ways (e.g. by what they're not showing and not testing). Too bad for them the evidence of admixture is showing up indirectly despite their attempts to keep the scope of their analyses as narrow and 'safe' as possible. Of course, when they sequence samples from other regions, they do the exact opposite. They make sure to leave no stone unturned to find every speck of European ancestry. And if they can't find evidence of European admixture they will make it up or keep doing variation of the analysis until they find something that fits their preconceived notions.
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posted
That said, these pigment predictors tend to err on the side of people who don't look like people today. Black with blue eyes is usually someone who looks like
This is why I despise racism.
We missed the opportunity of having Max Julien play a WHG . Instead he was playing pimp after pimp. Now we have a WHG that looks like a pimp.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Look at the narrow scope of the tests. Remember Lazaridis et al's absurd claim "we could not test for North African admixture". It's laughably obvious these researchers are trying to influence public opinion in subtle ways (e.g. by what they're not showing and not testing). Too bad for them the evidence of admixture is showing up indirectly despite their attempts to keep the scope of their analyses as narrow and 'safe' as possible. Of course, when they sequence samples from other regions, they do the exact opposite. They make sure to leave no stone unturned to find every speck of European ancestry. And if they can't find evidence of European admixture they will make it up or keep doing variation of the analysis until they find something that fits their preconceived notions.
I think you might be crediting them with too much ability to connect all the dots hinting at African ancestry in Cheddar Man. I doubt that possibility has even occurred to them unless it's something that writers in the literature they're reviewed have proposed many times before. But yes, I'm inclined to agree with you that this "Anatolian Neolithic" component in Cheddie's ancestry isn't what it seems according to the paper.
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Maybe they are not necessarily thinking African ancestry, but they're not exactly building on previous findings, either.
quote:During the major warming period after ~14,000 years ago, a genetic component related to present-day Near Easterners became widespread in Europe. These results document how population turnover and migration have been recurring themes of European prehistory.
Why start from scratch with very narrow analyses when progress has already been made in these areas?
We still don't know what European HG components are made up of. What is WHG a mixture of, for instance? It seems like progress is smeared out over 50 papers when it comes to finding out what WHG is, but when it comes to quantifying admixture in North Africa they have all the answers and all the tools to get to the bottom of it.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Maybe they are not necessarily thinking African ancestry, but they're not exactly building on previous findings, either.
quote:During the major warming period after ~14,000 years ago, a genetic component related to present-day Near Easterners became widespread in Europe. These results document how population turnover and migration have been recurring themes of European prehistory.
Why start from scratch with very narrow analyses when progress has already been made in these areas?
We still don't know what European HG components are made up of. What is WHG a mixture of, for instance? It seems like progress is smeared out over 50 papers when it comes to finding out what WHG is, but when it comes to quantifying admixture in North Africa they have all the answers and all the tools to get to the bottom of it.
You raise good questions there. I, in particular, agree that a deeper analysis of WHG and a breakdown of its ancestral components would be worth it. I'm still reluctant to think there's some kind of conspiracy on the part of all these researchers to cover up the truth, as you seem to be implying. My inclination is to think their bias is unconscious, probably conditioned, rather than deliberate.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Maybe they are not necessarily thinking African ancestry, but they're not exactly building on previous findings, either.
quote:During the major warming period after ~14,000 years ago, a genetic component related to present-day Near Easterners became widespread in Europe. These results document how population turnover and migration have been recurring themes of European prehistory.
Why start from scratch with very narrow analyses when progress has already been made in these areas?
We still don't know what European HG components are made up of. What is WHG a mixture of, for instance? It seems like progress is smeared out over 50 papers when it comes to finding out what WHG is, but when it comes to quantifying admixture in North Africa they have all the answers and all the tools to get to the bottom of it.
You raise good questions there. I, in particular, agree that a deeper analysis of WHG and a breakdown of its ancestral components would be worth it. I'm still reluctant to think there's some kind of conspiracy on the part of all these researchers to cover up the truth, as you seem to be implying. My inclination is to think their bias is unconscious, probably conditioned, rather than deliberate.
Well, at least you agree that there is a lot of room for improvement. But what is a conspiracy? I don't think people are getting together to agree on what shouldn't be published (unless we're talking national or government projects as in the case of Egypt, in which case I can't exclude that). But I do notice a pattern of loose ends and elephants in the room that are not commented on when it comes to non-Europeans in ancient Europe.
Not to go offtopic, but did you read Bernal's review of the history of classicism? If you want to see what I mean, get your hands on some papers dealing with dark skinned pre-Mycenaeans in the Aegean and see how researchers are systematically ignoring the elephant in the room. They simply can't be trusted to point out the elephant in the room and elaborate on it, even when they've printed the images in their own works. But, at the same time, some of them want to get offended when you take these paintings to their logical conclusion. What I'm saying, is that some geneticists are doing the same thing with European aDNA.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: We still don't know what European HG components are made up of. What is WHG a mixture of, for instance? It seems like progress is smeared out over 50 papers when it comes to finding out what WHG is, but when it comes to quantifying admixture in North Africa they have all the answers and all the tools to get to the bottom of it.
right now there are simple models for North Africa because there is not enough data. at first models for Europe were WHG and EEF. then oh wait we need this ANE thing. then oh hey there's this "teal" component coming from somewhere. and so on.
when IAM comes out we will see questions alright. btw looking at PC3-4 PCA in that paper the IAM outlier has a strikingly 'western' as well as 'southern' position.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: We still don't know what European HG components are made up of. What is WHG a mixture of, for instance? It seems like progress is smeared out over 50 papers when it comes to finding out what WHG is, but when it comes to quantifying admixture in North Africa they have all the answers and all the tools to get to the bottom of it.
right now there are simple models for North Africa because there is not enough data. at first models for Europe were WHG and EEF. then oh wait we need this ANE thing. then oh hey there's this "teal" component coming from somewhere. and so on.
when IAM comes out we will see questions alright. btw looking at PC3-4 PCA in that paper the IAM outlier has a strikingly 'western' as well as 'southern' position.
Seems like a negative position along both PCs is North African related. IAM, Natufian and PPN are the most negative, in that order. But IAM samples themselves are not that much more negative than other samples, which suggests (to me, at least) that older North African samples will occupy the most negative corner. Maybe an older North African population that doesn't have as much of IAM's SSA-like ancestry, and is more purely derived from the other component.
And did you notice the Sub-Saharan sample is in the middle of the West Eurasian sample in PC3 and PC4? Might be another elephant in the room. Unfortunately, they rarely include PC3 and PC4 in aDNA papers and also rarely put SSA samples in PC analyses. So we don't know how reproducible this is.
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posted
yes, and most of the IAMs are deflected toward KEB relative to the outlier, suggesting they already have EEF admixture. but outlier may already have EEF too, in which case the the ancestral IAM would be even more 'southwestern'.
being located around 0, 0 doesn't require any mahouts.
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quote:Originally posted by capra: yes, and most of the IAMs are deflected toward KEB relative to the outlier, suggesting they already have EEF admixture. but outlier may already have EEF too, in which case the the ancestral IAM would be even more 'southwestern'.
being located around 0, 0 doesn't require any mahouts.
We'll see what it means, soon. I suspect it's another elephant in the room. But I may be wrong. we'll see.
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----- Kanishka, said “not in the least bit. Genetically, he was not a Subsaharan African and would most certainly not cluster with them. Now the media is going to use this as another excuse to justify mass migration from Subsaharan Africa into Europe” BSamuel Andrews said... "Still, I dislike it how the media are trying to equate the Cheddar Man with modern day Black Africans. " I agree. Tomorrow, I'm going to post a youtube video where I debunk claims like that made about Cheddar man. ------ Quote: McEvoy et al.. Both TF and TLD, two T estimators calculated by different means from the ‘’’SAME DATA ***CONSISTENTLY*** DEMONSTRATE A SIGNIFICANTLY MORE RECENT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EUROPE AND AFRICA THAN BETWEEN EAST ASIA AND AFRICA’’’’. Using simulated populations, we show that under the single-wave ‘‘Out of Africa’’ model,
While the exact bias is difficult to estimate (Sved et al. 2008), it appears that post-divergence migration rates from Africa to Europe would need to be approximately ‘’CONSTANT ‘’because we observe consistent ratios of TF and TLD at different genetic distances. Thus, the observations are suggestive that ‘’GREATER MIGRATION TO EUROPE FROM SUB-SAHARAN AFRICAN HAS BEEN A** LONG-TERM** PHENOMENON’’. Y-chromosome and mtDNA lineages are generally highly differentiated between continents, making them powerful genetic markers of intercontinental migration. Most of the lineages that are characteristic of sub-Saharan Africa are absent in Europe (and vice versa) (Cavalli-Sforza and Feldman 2003; Underhill and Kivisild 2007). However, the coalescent time and geographic distribution
I am convinceancient Africans (OOA) were more like Australians/Papuan than modern Black SSA
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Just as modern Europeans are shocked to visualize how Europeans looked 5000ya modern SSA will be shocked to know what an African looked like 10,000ya. There is no race…everyone(OOA) is a subset of Africans. We are still unclear on what is an “African” looked like in the past …and present. Andaman Islanders come to mind. Negros are found outside Africa. Hofmyer is a Caucasoid ..go figure.
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Said by a.. "I'm a bit surprised to see that Cheddar Man (third man down from the top) already has a little snippet of Anatolian Neolithic-like ancestry. Either there was already some admixture from the Anatolian Neolithic trickling north into Cheddar's territory, or it's actually something else and the algorithm misidentified it "
Answer: - because it is not from the "Near East" or Anatolia. It is North African!!! A few hundred miles away from Britain. WTF is wrong with you people. Geography mimic genes ---Sforza. Good god!
Thank you Swenet - "Look at the narrow scope of the tests. Remember Lazaridis et al's absurd claim "we could not test for North African admixture....Maybe they are not necessarily thinking African ancestry, but they're not exactly building on previous findings, either. ".
These fugking racist researchers.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The liar said… “I think you might be crediting them with too much ability to connect all the dots hinting at African ancestry in Cheddar Man. I doubt that possibility has even occurred to them unless it's something that writers in the literature they're reviewed have proposed many times before. But yes, I'm inclined to agree with you that this "Anatolian Neolithic" component in Cheddie's ancestry isn't what it seems according to the paper.”
don’t forget Sergie Coon Evans McEvoy Arnaiz-Villens Lazaridis, yes, Lazaridis 2015. Clearly stated there is a North South cline and not A south East to north West cline Henn, yes, Henn etc
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Why would Africans be shocked by how ancient Africans looked? If ancient Africans are suppose to be like dravidians, melanesian and Australian Aborigines or any phenotype that didn't pursist today assuming they accept and understand the out of Africa event.
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My point is there is no African “look”. There are “Africans” and there is a “subset of Africans” popularly labelled as “non-African”. “non-African” is an inaccurate label because SNP/AIM that are non-African can be found in Africa and is also of African origin. As I said indigenous North Africans are probably older and more African than the so called “sub-saharan African”. Indigenous Tunisians may be(I have never been to Tunisia so I don’t know for sure) very similar phenotypically to Europeans, Carry mtDNA R0/HV/H but are autosomal relative distant to Europeans compared to other indigenous North Africans.
The old pre-historic ancient world is divided into Black and non-black. All populations along the equator are dark in pigmentation whether we talking Africa, Asia or the Americas. Fortunately …..That is how science works! Andaman Islanders, Papuans, Negritos etc are all ancestral to their Northern neighbors.
I came across an old research paper/book some time ago that talked about the division of humanity into black to the south and depigmented ones to the north. Maybe Lioness can dig it up. Can’t find it to the hell of me. I believe I posted it on ESR but no luck.
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I might be wrong, but no Y-DNA has been taken from Cheddar Man. His close relative LaBrana man carried Y-DNA C6. Haplogroup C is a South Asian Haplogroup. Maybe thats why they resemble South Asians.
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You may be right. OOA migrants both to the North to Europe and to Asia were probably blacks like Australians and Papauns
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. Instead he was playing pimp after pimp. Now we have a WHG that looks like a pimp.
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