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Author Topic: Pleistocene North African genomes link Near Eastern and sub-Saharan African human pop
Tukuler
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Jungle Fever? That's not scientific.
Socio-Sexual biased gene flow is the phrase.


Anyway ... Ever have to explain this stuff to
an inquisitive Soaps watcher? What am I doing?
Population Genetics booboo. I'm writing some
thing like:

Homesick U6a1 went back to Maghreb taking E-M78 along.
M1 homewreckers fled east, led by M78 cheaters.
Mashreqi gossipers made the Horn a good looking
further place for disgraced M1|M78 to move on.

Homeless Z287 were taken in by Levant mtDNA's.
First-generation Z830 mated local women, the only game in town.
Second generation M123 was no longer continental African.


But where they're gonna read it I gotta stuffy
it all up in jargon only insiders understand
or make believe they do.

Say what? Flipper's coming on? Lemme get off
the 'net. Mix me another Jamaica Me Happy with
that Smith&Cross. Don't forget the Coco Rčal.

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Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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xyyman
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"Homesick U6a1 went back to Maghreb taking E-M78 along.
M1 homewreckers fled east, led by M78 cheaters.
Mashreqi gossipers made the Horn a good looking
further place for disgraced M1|M78 to move on. "


Africa has the root of U6a, Europe and Asia has SUB-CLADES!!

The history of the North African mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U6 gene flow into the African, Eurasian and American continents - Bernard Secher
 -


 -

https://s17.postimg.org/61gmhqw2n/mt_DNA_Africa_U6a_Europe.jpg
MOD:Oversized img Converted To Link Format

[ 31. March 2018, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Elmaestro ]

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xyyman
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There was no "back-migration of mtDNA U from Europe to Africa. It never happened!!!

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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the lioness,
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xyyman, disregarding the Romanian remains of 35K let's say hypothetically that people in Algeria brought haplogroup U6 to Europe Why should we care?

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
There was no "back-migration of mtDNA U from Europe to Africa. It never happened!!!

True. U didn't migrate from Europe to Africa. It was U6.

I used to think U6 originated in AME (Africa & Mid-East).

Two years ago Rumanian 35k U6 was found.
U6 is E Euro in origin per known physical
remains but not "Caucasian" as per Maca Meyer.


U6 ←U ←R ←N ←L3.

L3 born in Africa
N born in AME
R born in Eurasia
U born in Eurasia
U6 born in Europe

U6a'b'd'c born in Africa.
U6's generational offspring are considered not
just northern African but a Maghrebi Imazighen
('Berber' speakers) marker. This makes for low
level female genetic continuity from before the
last Ice Age to the present in the Maghreb al
Aqsa. Birth and at least 20,000 years residence
make U6 downstream clades indigenous African.

Geneticist reports are in consensus for
U6a'b'd' all being born in the Maghreb.
U6c seems questionable. Tschad? Canaries?

U6a1 was born further east somewhere
between Libya and Sudan.


I feel sorry for people paying Skippy for
a so-called African Ancestry test. Skippy
labels U6a1 European, a blatant error.

But then relying on Skippy for accurate
Africana is a well known stupidity marked
by fear of independent thought.

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Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Ase
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Didn't haplogroup U come from N? Wasn't N being said to have originated in Asia? descendants of Backmigrants that then mutated in Africa.
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Askia_The_Great
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U6 came from the Middle East. Not Europe.
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Tukuler
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U guyz is funny, shooting from the hip.

Consult
• Secher & Fregel, et al 2014
• Hervella et al 2016

and their references to learn about U6.
2003 Maca-Meyer's where I started. Charactering
U6 straight up caucasian like she did is Eurocentric
not merely excusable benign unavoidable Eurovision.


quote:
my previous post:

Two years ago Rumanian 35k U6 was found.
U6 is E Euro in origin per known physical

U6 ←U ←R ←N ←L3.

L3 born in Africa
N born in AME
R born in Eurasia
U born in Eurasia
U6 born in Europe

So when was R removed as U's immediate upstream forebear?
And when did Rumania leave Europe?

C'mon and teach me. I'm willing to learn.

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I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
U6 came from the Middle East. Not Europe.

 -
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Doug M
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Just because U6 was found in Romania 35,000 years ago does not mean it originated there. U6 is between 40 and 50 thousand years old. The oldest human remains in Europe don't go that far back. Most scientists place the first humans in Europe between 40 and 50 thousand years ago. So it is very unlikely that U6 originated there in Romania. More likely is it arose in Africa or even the Levant, but among populations that for all intents and purposes were Africans. And that 35,000 year old sample of U6 is not tied to any modern European. Most likely a wave of R and U carrying migrants arose in Africa at the point of OOA 60,000 years ago. But when you are talking about populations over 40,000 years old this just becomes a case of splitting hairs. All these populations would have been African in every sense of the word at that time and prior.
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Ase
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Why does this matter if the entire U clade came from N which came from Asia?
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xyyman
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Thanks you Doug. I just back in...
Looking to respond but you did already. Sometimes I wonder if everyone else is a retard on this forum.

What was/is found in Romania is exactly where and what it should be at that time in human history consistent with an African origin. The fools do not see that. Apples and apples guys not apples and oranges. SMH.


Admin:

Keep the insults to a low.


[ 30. March 2018, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Elite Diasporan ]

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xyyman
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Even when the hypothesis makes absolutely no sense I am surprised when the "conscious" ones are gullible to it when they should know better and see through the "sleight of hands". No people ...mtDNA U6* 35,000years ago in Roamania is exactly consistent with an African origin of mtDNA U.

When we sample 35000yo aDNA from Africa and it is confirmed to be a subclade of U6 ONLY then we can safely assume mtDNA U6 is of non-African origin.

As it stands right now we do NOT have comparable samples FROM Africa at this point in time.

But we do have Kefi samples @ 22000ya. mtDNA U/H.?

I hope some of you use what little common sense you have. No Brilliance needed,

Lioness, Oshun and the like get a free pass....wink! I expect better of you ..."conscious"... ones.

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xyyman
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Some of you who understand Skoglund and the new aDNA data from North Africa can see the many surpirses.

What mtDNA U6* were white Europeans that backmigrated from Romania then turned black as they entered Africa?

We know North Africans and Levantines were black as all aDNA has shown to this point. We know Luxmanda was really a "Eurasian" living in Tanzania who carried mtDNA L2a. So was she an European-African or an African-European...lol! Such fools.

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the lioness,
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Haplogroup U descends from the haplogroup R mtDNA branch of the phylogenetic tree. The defining mutations (A11467G, A12308G, G12372A) are estimated to have arisen between 43,000 and 50,000 years ago, in the early Upper Paleolithic

Ancient DNA classified as belonging to the U* mitochondrial haplogroup has been recovered from human skeletal remains found in Western Siberia, which have been dated to c. 45,000 years ago
( Ust’-Ishim )

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Ase
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quote:

U6a'b'd'c born in Africa.
U6's generational offspring are considered not
just northern African but a Maghrebi Imazighen
('Berber' speakers) marker. This makes for low
level female genetic continuity from before the
last Ice Age to the present in the Maghreb al
Aqsa. Birth and at least 20,000 years residence
make U6 downstream clades indigenous African.

This seems to be where the discrepancy lies. If someone leaves Africa and comes back, are they NEVER African again from that point forward? Most people here don't seem to deny the distant ancestors to U6 were "Eurasian" which is what I imagine what Eurocentrism is gunning for. Limit "Africanity" to people who never left.


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

blah blah blah multiple posts of flamebait sermons and other such irrelevant shitnoonecaresabout

 -

Back from vacation and still can't accept that no one gives a fuck about him lol. He's not gonna stop making multiple posts until he gets the attention he craves for on ES.

 -

So stop flooding the topic with multiple posts.And learn to use a damn edit button. Do not flame people (that aren't even thinking about you) over what they don't know when you still don't edit your shit right. This forum format's ancient, so how many years does it take to learn how to put consecutive statements in the same post unless you're TRYING to force people to notice you (and your flame baiting)? Is this the first time mods have seen this? Why is this only unacceptable when the white supremacist weirdos come in like CT? Can you mods make him keep his shit to one post until time elapses or someone responds so we can ignore him? The ignore feature doesn't work.

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Swenet
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The irony is that you guys are right. U6's people came from Asia. As far as the archaeological correlate of the subclade (U6abcd) that eventually went into Africa, it's probably the Levantine Aurignacian.
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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Haplogroup U descends from the haplogroup R mtDNA branch of the phylogenetic tree. The defining mutations (A11467G, A12308G, G12372A) are estimated to have arisen between 43,000 and 50,000 years ago, in the early Upper Paleolithic

Ancient DNA classified as belonging to the U* mitochondrial haplogroup has been recovered from human skeletal remains found in Western Siberia, which have been dated to c. 45,000 years ago
( Ust’-Ishim )

Thank you. U cometh from R. U is 2nd step from N.

I'm not saying U6 boarded a flight or set sail
directly to Morocco. Of course it crossed thru
the part of AME* called SW Asia among other names.


To me since the oldest U6 known is in Roumania
for now any other origin is non-parsimonious
speculation that could turn out correct by
some later unknown find. But for now a
an aDNA fossil at hand is worth.

Age, frequency, diversity of U6a'b'd'c seem
to weight the African pan of the coalescence
and expansion scale. Afaic they're just as
indigenous African as those L clades which're
younger. The Africa we know is a child of Mid
Holocene monsoon withdrawal.


Will add some quotes later unless somebody beats me to it.


- - -

* Africa and the Middle East

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
The irony is that you guys are right. U6's people came from Asia. As far as the archaeological correlate of the subclade (U6abcd) that eventually went into Africa, it's probably the Levantine Aurignacian.

If the 35k remains were found in Romania why are you saying Levantine?
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Swenet
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I'm saying the subclade that made its way to Africa stopped in the Levant, first. The Romanian individual belongs to another subclade. Both subclades originate with a parent population that migrated from Asia.

quote:
The analysis of the PM1 mitogenome polymorphisms revealed 15 nucleotide changes with respect to the rCRS28, identifying the PM1 mitogenome as a basal haplogroup U6* (Supplementary Table 1). One of these polymorphisms is a private mutation, T10517A, not previously found in any mitochondrial genome.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep25501

^This individual's mtDNA did not give birth to African U6, if that's what you're thinking.

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xyyman
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Let me guess. Black European women migrated enmasse, without their men, to Africa from Romania ...no the Levantine....no mid-East...no..eh!...somewhere. lol! stupid people. JUngle fever 350000bc

 -

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xyyman
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@ Oshun. All those red circles show European women carrying L1b, N, R0, U, H, V etc migrating enmasse to Africa. SMH. Why do I bother?

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Askia_The_Great
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I forgot the study but it was posted on here but it reconfirmed that U6 came from the Middle East...
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Doug M
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quote:

Haplogroup U descends from the haplogroup R mtDNA branch of the phylogenetic tree. The defining mutations (A11467G, A12308G, G12372A) are estimated to have arisen between 43,000 and 50,000 years ago, in the early Upper Paleolithic (around 46,530 ± 3,290 years before present, with a 95% confidence interval per Behar et al., 2012).

Ancient DNA classified as belonging to the U* mitochondrial haplogroup has been recovered from human skeletal remains found in Western Siberia, which have been dated to c. 45,000 years ago.[4]

From Wikipedia

Just because haplogroup U was found in Siberia 43,000 years ago does not mean it originated there. The problem here is that the time depth beyond 43,000 years ago is so great that the odds of finding other older remains with U DNA decreases. But if you have U in Siberia and U in Romania and U in Taforalt, the most logical explanation is that all of these descend from a common ancestral population that lived between Africa, Arabia and the Levant upwards of 50 to 60 thousand years ago, which is right around the time of OOA. The idea that Siberians backmigrated all the way back to Europe and then Africa to re introduce U to the continent is far fetched and illogical.

This also means by extension that the parent of U, which is haplogroup R also likely arose in Africa as well as you are talking about an age of 66 thousand years old.

When it comes to "basal" lineages like U and R the odds are that they arose in Africa among migrating populations or populations that were once more widespread in Africa (ie. in North Africa) but later displaced by environmental and other circumstances (the Sahara pump).

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

The idea that Siberians backmigrated all the way back to Europe and then Africa to re introduce U to the continent is far fetched and illogical.


No it isn't. If people migrated out of Africa all over the planet that does not mean genes cannot have mutated outside of Africa and over thousands of years people migrating back into Africa pressured to due so due to the ice age or other reasons.

The idea that mutation and drift did not cause some new haplogroups to form outside of Africa is political

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Let me guess. Black European women migrated enmasse, without their men, to Africa from Romania ...no the Levantine....no mid-East...no..eh!...somewhere. lol! stupid people. JUngle fever 350000bc


No, a group comprised of men and women migrate to a new location. They get into a war in that new area and they lose the war. They men are killed and the victors take the women. That is one possibility. It doesn't even have to be in large masses because after thousands of years later a small group can multiply into a new group.
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the lioness,
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 -
Algerian Mozabites, highest frequencies of U6 in Africa

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Tukuler
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Good arguments all around.

A method implied by Swenet will
tell us a lot; line up as much of
the mitogenomes accessible
to ascertain any lineal direct
relationships of Roumania & Maghreb.

Meanwhile are the authors
misleadingly pointing to
PM1 U6 ancestral to U6a'b'd'c?
 -
Figure 2. Distribution of the U6 mitochondrial lineages.
(A)
Phylogenetic analysis and temporal estimates for lineages including the Pestera Muierii-1 (PM1) from the mitochondrial tree.


In lieu of editing my last
post here's some relevant
Hirbo for some reason last
August I took notes on .

Sorry for block of text.
If I underscored points
it'd only take away from
the overall presentation.


"
Middle Paleolithic tool industries of northeast Africa, which might
have served as transition technology to the Near East, have been
broadly classified into two complexes: Nubian that is riverine that
probably expanded northward from the Sudan, and the Lower Nile valley
complex [586]. The Lower Nile valley complex is described as flexible,
which made it possible for its users to adapt and exploit different
environments including the desert [586]. The Lower Nile valley complex
is considered as a continuation of industry practiced by earlier occupiers
of the Nile Valley (from 90 kya), before subsequent transition to Upper
Paleolithic industry around 40 kya [586]. Similarity between stone tool
technologies dated to between 35-44 kya at Nazlet khater 4 in Egypt
and those used at the site in the Levant (Boker Tachtit) [691, 692]
serves as evidence of a transition of modern humans from Africa to Eurasia.
In fact, archeological findings from several 30 - 50 kyo sites in the Levant
have been termed “transitional industries” between the Middle and Upper
Paleolithic [29].


The Upper Paleolithic industries thought to be the work of modern humans
seem to have appeared somewhat earlier in western Asia than in Europe [29].
Some historians argue that the 40 kya common tradition that marks the
behavioral modernity sometimes attributed to Neanderthal (art, personal
decoration, ritualized burials, formal bone tools and gift exchange),
might represent the expansion of Upper Paleolithic anatomically modern
human populations across Europe [393, 685, 693]. Despite the fact that
Europe was settled by modern humans by the end of the Middle Paleolithic
(by 30 kya) [404, 694], the early European modern human fossil evidence
from Mladec (28 kya) [695] exhibit features that support substantial and
relatively recent African ancestry [26]. Moreover, a study of comparison
in body proportions of skeleton samples from the European Early Upper
Paleolithic (30 -20 kya) shows that they cluster with recent African
samples rather than European Late upper Paleolithic (19-10 kya) samples
indicating that there was some gene flow and/or migration from Africa
associated with the emergence of modern humans in Europe [696]. Therefore,
the sequence of historical events and archaeological evidence above,
indicates that the expansion from Africa into Southwest Asia might
have taken place around 40 - 50 kya. This is further supported by
anatomically modern human produced tools shared between North Africa
and the Near east [697].


During two periods, the African faunal zone seems to have extended briefly
into the Near East and allowed modern humans to expand their range out of
Africa into southwestern Asia [698] before contracting back [699]. These
two periods, about 100 kya and 50 kya, coincide with the initial unsuccessful
and the second the later expansion out of Africa, respectively [29, 148, 684, 686].
Therefore, the contiguous area that constitutes part of north Africa,
specifically the Nile valley and near East, might have also acted as
a corridor of human range expansion from Africa and population contraction
back to Africa from 40 kya up to the late Pleistocene (20 kya) [586].


The scenario described above fits the genetic evidence and time period for
modern human dispersal from Africa through the northern route [17], mostly
by individuals with R0 mtDNA lineages (sub-family of the N-clade). Based on
principal components analysis (PCA) of a dataset of 940 individuals from 53
representative global populations typed at ~650,000 SNPs as part of the
Human Genome Diversity Project [343], Reich et al., [555] speculated that
there was sub-Saharan African gene flow into Europe and the rest of Eurasia.
Moreover, based on a novel PCA and clustering method which was used to
determine the phylogeny of 1737 complete human mtDNA sequences, Alexe et al.,
[191] argued that M and N mtDNA clades arose due to two different migration
events that represent the previously described southern and northern routes
respectively. They [191] further argue that the N carrying population that
followed the northern route split along an East-West geographic division,
resulting in a western “European R clade” containing the haplogroups H, V,
H/V, J, T and U, and an eastern “Eurasian N subclade” containing haplogroups
B, R5, F, A, N9, I, W and X. However, considering the distribution pattern of
the „Eurasian N-clades‟ in Southeast Asia, the

408
Pacific and the Americas, some of the N clades might have been present in
individuals who followed the southern route. Interestingly, the R clades
that are found in South/Southeast Asia and the Americas (A, B, F, N9,
R5-R11, P and Y) seem to have split off from other R clades that are mainly
found in the Near East and Europe about 50-70 kya [190]. Such a scenario may
indicate that the N clade split within Africa before its expansion out of Africa.
The M haplogroup, whose M1 haplotype is predominantly East African and whose
other haplotypes are found in the Indian subcontinent and southeastern Asia,
might also reflect a population split just before/or after the out-of Africa
migration, with most of the M haplotype carrying populations expanding through
the southern route. The TMRCA age estimates based on ~4600 sequences – N=3191,
M=1416 (60 from this study and the rest from previously published data) of the
N and M haplogroup lineages are 41 – 67 ky (Kivisild et al., [220] 62.11±6.09 ky
and Mishmar et al., [178] 47.92±6.98 ky) and 41 – 62 (Kivisild et al., [220]
55.76±4.36 ky and Mishmar et al., [178] 45.11±4.53 ky), respectively (Appendix 7b).
These age estimates for the two haplogroups concurs with estimates done using
a corrected time-dependent mutation rate based on the entire mtDNA genome using
a maximum likelihood method which estimated the TMRCA of the N haplogroup to be
76.92±17.53 ky and the TMRCA of the M haplogroup to be 73.3±9.64 ky [190]
(Appendix 7b).

It is still not yet clear whether M and N arose in Africa just before the
exodus, or just after it (as indicated by the close relationship and similar
ages for M and N (as estimated above), but it is highly unlikely that it
happened further east in India as speculated elsewhere [598] based on high
diversity of M [412, 600, 700, 701]. The ages of the haplogroups coupled with
the distribution pattern of N and M haplotypes described above are consistent
with the

409
hypothesis that they diverged prior to migration of modern humans
out of Africa or just after it. This time period coincides perfectly with the
return to warm, moist conditions in global climate after volcanic ash from the
Mt. Toba eruption (which took place 73 kya in modern-day Sumatra) dissipated.
The effects of the eruption on the tropics and sub tropics were reduced temperature,
precipitation and increased aridity, and may have lasted until 60 kya [393]. It
is hypothesized that these events led to a contraction of the human population,
reducing genetic diversity and limiting the distribution of human populations to
areas with climatically favorable conditions and ecologically stable environments
[48, 110, 393]. The climatic conditions improved around 57 kya with increased
insolation (solar radiation received) and precipitation in northern Africa [393].
During dry periods, environmental barriers associated with the severity of the
Sahara desert could have made the northern route difficult, so it is likely
that this route was more suitable during wetter climatic periods [702]; thus
the expansion may have been more likely during the wet periods of 43-57 kya
[393, 592]. Recent study‟s [703] findings of a crude age estimate (13.6 – 108.4 kya)
and distribution pattern of 17q21 inversion (microtubular associated protein
tau (MAPT) inversion), mainly across Europe, Central and southwestern Asia
and Africa [703], also seem to conform to northern route out-of-Africa human
and Neolithic expansion.
"

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xyyman
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Why don't you stick to editing......?

What do you think the discussion is about? Repeating it doesn't clarify anything. Apples and apples is the only way to resolve this.

Because a "dead end" of U6 was found in Romania from 35,000 does mean it originated in Romania ...or the middle East. Might as well make N and all it's sub-clade be of European origin like all those red circles. Even when Africans carry the highest diversity and ancestral clades of all these haplo-groups. SMH. Asses.


Let me read what Sage has to say.



quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
I forgot the study but it was posted on here but it reconfirmed that U6 came from the Middle East...



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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
I forgot the study but it was posted on here but it reconfirmed that U6 came from the Middle East...

There is some data out there claiming it to have entered Africa from the Iberia.
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
There was no "back-migration of mtDNA U from Europe to Africa. It never happened!!!

It is indirectly admitted here.


quote:
Introduction

After the dispersal of modern humans Out of Africa, around 50–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4 or earlier based on fossil evidence5, hominins with similar morphology to present-day humans appeared in the Western Eurasian fossil record around 45–40 ky cal BP, initiating the demographic transition from ancient human occupation [Neandertals] to modern human [Homo sapiens] expansion on to the continent1"

[...]

The haplogroup of PM1 falls within the U clade [Fig. 1B and Supplementary Table 3], which derived from the macro-haplogroup N possibly connected to the Out of Africa migration around 60–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4. In line with this, the Peştera cu Oase individual that lived on the current territory of Romania, albeit slightly earlier than PM1 [37–42 ky cal BP] also displays haplogroup N9.


—Hervella et al. 2016


See a similar trend involving U6a and L1b

 -


 -

—Sarah Tishkoff et al.

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@xyyman

You know you can ignore the post right?

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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm saying the subclade that made its way to Africa stopped in the Levant, first. The Romanian individual belongs to another subclade. Both subclades originate with a parent population that migrated from Asia.

quote:
The analysis of the PM1 mitogenome polymorphisms revealed 15 nucleotide changes with respect to the rCRS28, identifying the PM1 mitogenome as a basal haplogroup U6* (Supplementary Table 1). One of these polymorphisms is a private mutation, T10517A, not previously found in any mitochondrial genome.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep25501

^This individual's mtDNA did not give birth to African U6, if that's what you're thinking.

That's what I heard to and yet some in this thread are acting like I'm smoking crack. There was a recent study that claims U6 migrated from the Levant.

Heck U6 even in very low frequencies is found in the Levant if I remember correctly.

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Don't know if this is the study.


Abstract:
quote:
Complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genome analyses have greatly improved the phylogeny and phylogeography of human mtDNA. Human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U6 has been considered as a molecular signal of a Paleolithic return to North Africa of modern humans from southwestern Asia.
Read more here.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


 -


 -

—Sarah Tishkoff et al.

Is N found in NW Africa?
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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm saying the subclade that made its way to Africa stopped in the Levant, first. The Romanian individual belongs to another subclade. Both subclades originate with a parent population that migrated from Asia.

quote:
The analysis of the PM1 mitogenome polymorphisms revealed 15 nucleotide changes with respect to the rCRS28, identifying the PM1 mitogenome as a basal haplogroup U6* (Supplementary Table 1). One of these polymorphisms is a private mutation, T10517A, not previously found in any mitochondrial genome.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep25501

^This individual's mtDNA did not give birth to African U6, if that's what you're thinking.

You're absolutely right.

 -


PM1 U6 is a sister of the African Root U6,
a great aunt to the eldest African U6a,
great aunt to U6b'd,
and aunt of the young African U6c.

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the lioness,
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 -


If you look at Pestera cu Oase also from Romania on this chart and older than PM1 (Pestera Muieri ) that is haplogroup N. That is ancestral to mtDNA R and R is ancestor to U.

U1 and U5 are older on this chart than U6

If you look at Pestera Muieri that was a woman also found in Romania who carried basal U6*

That haplogroup was formed before it split into
U6a U6b and U6c.

This particular woman was not an ancestor herself to other individuals of these U6 splits but she carried the older basal U6* lineage type.

So her age, 35K is not the age of the basal U6* (50k) she carried

Although the exact origin dates are estimates.
But so far that Romanian specimen is the oldest human remains found bearing U6

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Sometimes it's better to revisit and reread your notes than to speak off the top from what you remember. Above I was arguing that U6 originated somewhere in Central Asia, and that UP European U6* and African U6abcd are two subclades separating from a Central Asian U6 carrying parent population that was on its way to West Eurasia. This is a wrongly remembered version of my original thoughts on U6. In my original notes this is what I had in mind.

U6 is analogous to R-V88, in that the both derive from (Central) Asian parents (mtDNA U and Y-DNA R), but also in that both were originally thought to be African, but have now turned out to have older offshoots in West Eurasia than in Africa. The older West Eurasian offshoots make sense because West Eurasia lies in between Central Asia and Africa.

The credible and latest estimates assign U6 a date of ~37ky old. If this is accurate (a big IF), then the Levantine Aurignacian comes into focus as an archaeological correlate of U6. And if the Levantine Aurignacian really is associated with U6, then U6 must have originated fully inside the Levant as Elite Diasporan was saying (not in Central Asia as I was alluding to above). The Levantine Aurignacian starts exactly around the time the latest research suggests U6 originated. See table 1, fig 2 and fig 3:

Radiocarbon chronology of Manot Cave, Israel and Upper Paleolithic dispersals
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/11/e1701450/tab-pdf

A couple of implications of this scenario that U6 itself (not just a U6 subclade) was spread by the Levantine Aurignacian people:

--In this scenario U6abd and some stage of pre-U6c represent the entry into Africa as two already differentiated branches, not as a single U6abcd clade as I was suggesting earlier
--Since U6abd is 32ky old according Behar et al., the entry into Africa by U6abd and pre-U6c must have taken place around that time. They could have been attracted by the 33ky old wet spell in North Africa. By 32kya the Levantine Aurignacian had changed or declined (depending on how one interprets the archaeological record), which could indicate a partial displacement of Levantine Aurignacian population. This fits the 32ky old backmigration date well
--This relatively late entry into Africa explains why UP European U6* is basal compared to U6abd and U6c
--In this scenario mtDNA U was the Central Asian parent population, not U6 as I was arguing earlier
--In this scenario UP European U6* migrated from the Levant, not directly from the aforementioned Central Asian parent population

I may end up being wrong in my reading, but this is more accurate representation of my original thoughts on Asia, the Levantine Aurignacian and U6.

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xyyman
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My point? Don't just throw things out there without a reference of sort. That is like trolling. If you are not sure and can't back it up keep it to yourself ..until you can.

quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
@xyyman

You know you can ignore the post right?



--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Yeah, you don't own this forum. Sam does. And I already posted one of the studies that state U^ could have come from the Middle East. Many past studies/authors have strongly hinted at U6 coming from the Middle East. Swenet even mentions the Levantine Aurignacian people. And I also mentioned that U6 is still found in parts of the Near East but in small frequencies. And no it is NOT like trolling.

Back on topic?

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
My point? Don't just throw things out there without a reference of sort. That is like trolling. If you are not sure and can't back it up keep it to yourself ..until you can.

quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
@xyyman

You know you can ignore the post right?



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Ase
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I would, but he's already been baiting in this thread multiple times already. Why are you defending yourself against trolling by someone who just finished making multiple (and consecutive) posts flame baiting (calling other people here retarded, etc)? You think he really cares about keeping this thread troll free? He's not going to stop. He'll just find a new way to bait later. If you want him to stop, make him. Don't ask him to get back on topic, finally tell him you'll do something. This has been the second (or fourth time if going by posts?) he's been on his messy diva bait shit.Make him stop it so we can get back to the topic, please.
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Tukuler
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Ah, but what is the age of U6 in the Arabian Plate?

Is AP U6 from pre-history
or from the Amazigh girls
whom one physician ranked
the most perfect slave?

"The Berber women are from the island of Barbara (sic), which is between the west and the south.
Their color is mostly black, though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one
whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you
will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both
to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. Abu
Uthman the slave-dealer says, If it happens that a Berber girl with her racial excellence is imported
at the age of nine, spends three years in Medina and three years in Mecca, comes to Iraq at the age
of fifteen and is educated in Iraq, and is bought at the age of twenty-five, then she adds to the
excellence of her race the roguishness of the Medinans, the languor of the Meccans, and the
culture of the women of Iraq. Then she is worthy to be hidden in the eyelid and placed in the eye."

~ ibn Butlān, a Nestorian Christian physician of Baghdad ~

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
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xyyman
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@ hey Oshun

Here is a quote..
Hervella et al
"The U6 haplogroup is the only sub-haplogroup within the U clade currently present in Africa,.."

"the haplotype of the PM1 individual belongs to the basal U6 haplogroup from which the rest of haplotypes were derived (Fig. 2A). This scenario confirms that the U6 mitochondrial lineage has a Eurasian origin, supporting the hypothesis of an early back-migration from Eurasia to North Africa in the EUP"

"We found a basal U6 in South East Europe, on the current territory of Romania 35 ky BP, suggesting that either the U6 lineage originated in Eastern Europe or the TMRCA of U6 is older than 35 ky. "...(within an African origin-xyyman)

"Given the presence of a basal U6 mitogenome in Romania 35 ky BP, the distance between Western Asia and Romania, and the estimated diffusion pace of hunter-gatherer populations 30 suggest that the early populations carrying haplogroup U6 most likely started their spread*** to*** Eastern Europe before 40 ky BP."


"It is unclear whether the haplogroup U6 diversified in Africa or arrived to the continent as an already diversified lineage."

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xyyman
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So explain to me what I just quoted...that goes for you(Oshun) or ANYONE??!!!!!

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Doug M
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Lets just say we need more aDNA. The problem right now is the current models of the ancient origins of certain DNA lineages are based primarily on remains and DNA samples from said remains which are primarily from Eurasia and far older than any remains that have been sampled in Africa.

Until we get samples from African remains in North Africa, the Nile valley and so forth between 30 and 50 KYA we will never know for certain that migrating Africans were not the basis of these lineages.

This is the only thing I see here. Not necessarily a conspiracy but a model that is based on a lot of speculation, assumptions, missing data and hypothetical models.

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Askia_The_Great
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I don't lnow about the Arabian plate but think more towards the Levant. Maybe 40-30k years. The one found in Romania imo could be of a early split which is why(someone correct) its different from the ones found in the Maghreb.

And the quote you posted I use to post a lot. European female slaves and European Muslim converts slowly started overtaking the indignous North African population due to the Maghreb as a whole being sparsely populated. Which is why they state some pale ones can be found among them. The Masmuda who imo were the main Berber groups who entered Southern Europe and were the main infantry.

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Ah, but what is the age of U6 in the Arabian Plate?

Is AP U6 from pre-history
or from the Amazigh girls
whom one physician ranked
the most perfect slave?

"The Berber women are from the island of Barbara (sic), which is between the west and the south.
Their color is mostly black, though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one
whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you
will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both
to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. Abu
Uthman the slave-dealer says, If it happens that a Berber girl with her racial excellence is imported
at the age of nine, spends three years in Medina and three years in Mecca, comes to Iraq at the age
of fifteen and is educated in Iraq, and is bought at the age of twenty-five, then she adds to the
excellence of her race the roguishness of the Medinans, the languor of the Meccans, and the
culture of the women of Iraq. Then she is worthy to be hidden in the eyelid and placed in the eye."

~ ibn Butlān, a Nestorian Christian physician of Baghdad ~


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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
I would, but he's already been baiting in this thread multiple times already. Why are you defending yourself against trolling by someone who just finished making multiple (and consecutive) posts flame baiting (calling other people here retarded, etc)? You think he really cares about keeping this thread troll free? He's not going to stop. He'll just find a new way to bait later. If you want him to stop, make him. Don't ask him to get back on topic, finally tell him you'll do something. This has been the second (or fourth time if going by posts?) he's been on his messy diva bait shit.Make him stop it so we can get back to the topic, please.

He's not doing anything so far that is breaking the rules. But I did edit out some of his posts.

If I started suspending/banning people that annoy me then half of this forum would be suspended/banned.

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Been busy but I'm back. All the arguments by the ignoramuses in this forum aside, this comment by Beyoku below is also the conclusion I got from the study.
quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:

I have been reading over the data and.....................I dont think Taforalt are "Mixed" in the same way people are thinking they are "partly Natufian partly African".

All the commentary i see outside of ES simply has it wrong. We are going to need MORE ancient DNA to really know what we are looking at. They are all still making the same mistake of not accounting for African substructure. They aint learned shit. In all commentary have seen about the study the word "Substructure" is MIA. Its also not in the article.

Taforlat are not partly Naufian/Hadza/Mende because Dinka are NOT 90% Yoruba. Somali are not a combination of Yoruba and Natufian. Mota do not have more North African ancestry than Mozibites and Saharawi.

Beyoku is absolutely correct. I have read other population genetic studies especially in regards to Asia or Eurasia as a whole they all speak of substructure yet when it comes to African populations this fundamental element is missing despite Africa being the source of all human genetis diversity. This is why people use modern SSA as a strawman for all African when we here in Egyptsearch know that there was more elements to indigenous African populations. Even Swenet makes an excellent argument as to why 'Basal Eurasian' is actually African in origin. This is why when it comes to genetic population structure especially of prehistoric populations I tend to take the interpretations with few grains of salt until as Beyoku says we get more genetic data.
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Tukuler
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Why is someone outside a clique expressing an opinion/interpretation that differs from yours an ignoramus?

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Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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