quote:Originally posted by Swenet: BTW, anyone think it was a coincidence that Lazaridis et al didn't publish Hotu's Y-DNA? Keep in mind that Lazaridis et al used the lack of E in Iran Neolithic (as well as the lower proportion of Basal Eurasian in Natufians compared to Iranian samples) as evidence against an African origin of Basal Eurasian. What a coincidence that the sample their argument hinges partly hinged on, is the same sample that now turns out to be E-M2.
Actually the sample is not Hotu and Hotu did have his Y-DNA published. I see I still didn't learn after the mistake yesterday and my intention to refrain from talking before reading the paper. I guess that means I won't be commenting on this paper then because I'm likely not going to read it. Most of these papers are sh!t anyway. The E-M2 in the Iranian sample (which were supposed to be high in Basal Eurasian, but low in Y-DNA E) proves it.
I bet a lot of aDNA samples with no Y-DNA listed, with 'CT' listed, with suspiciously low sample sizes, with dubious sampling choices (e.g. in the far north in the case of the recent Natufians and Abusir), or suspiciously not including skeletal remains of Eurasians with known African affinities when taking samples at the same site are just indications of manipulation somewhere along the chain of command. Somebody is steering clear of some skeletal remains and I know because I know when it looks suspicious because I know about these skeletal remains.
If you doubt what I'm saying, and you know how to read skeletal data, go read about the cranial features of some skeletal remains in the Hotu cave (see the paper below) and tell me why there is only one Hotu genome. And tell me why there is no justification given for why there is only one Hotu sample.
Tukuler
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I thought you meant Iron Age by that map, considering the legend's AD delimited shapes (though the map's primary focus is 2000 BC) and the increase in E1 from Iran/Turan Bronze to South Asia Iron as Elite Diasporan posted
What do you mean? I see exclusively AD/near AD symbols of Sahelian crops in Egypt and southern Africa. In India and Pakistan I see Bronze Age to AD/near AD symbols.
Haven't read the map's source article. So partially interpreting it with W Sahel & Senegambian blinders on.
Left end of unidirectional eastbound arrowline lies in Mali.
Now I'm not giving overriding significance to that or this, the arrow butt is nearest to an Asterisk flanked by two Diamonds.
A = 2500-1500 BCE D = 400-1000 CE
It's mostly A in India at the arrowhead but there's a D at 4 o'clock from that cluster.
I was trying to blaze an E-Z60nn Iron Age trail to South Asia E1b in particular on the Crops Out path.
So that's where I was coming from. Trying to tie the different posters' strands into a multidisciplinary cord.
No, positive Z scores statistically reflect the amount of standard deviations the test populations are towards the reference(neanderthal). The dataset for this run caps at 579,888 snps so populations with more individuals who share closer to that amount will have inflated Z-scores relative to others. You have to use the weighted F4 stat for an easy digest. The higher the f4 the more neanderthal.
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Here for the sake of pushing scholarship on ES. Being that later studies shy away from mentioning any anthropological similarities between samples of these regions and Africa.
posted
Ok. I don't think I completely understand, but to address the other part of your post:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I thought you meant Iron Age by that map, considering the legend's AD delimited shapes (though the map's primary focus is 2000 BC) and the increase in E1 from Iran/Turan Bronze to South Asia Iron as Elite Diasporan posted
I posted that map because it went along with what el Maestro posted about E-M2. If I knew the Indus Valley E carriers were listed as 'E-Z830' I would have never posted that map.
A migration out of Africa to India during Bronze Age, Iron Age or AD times would be unlikely to be detected in aDNA as E-Z830* (although there are some exceptions where I can see that happening). The closer we get to modern times, the more we would expect OOA migrations to bring something more modern with them. For instance, one of the Bronze Age Armenians belongs to E-Z830, but his Y-DNA was narrowed down to E-Z830→E-M123→E-M34→E-L795 (IIRC). Something like E-L795 is appropriate for a Bronze Age migration out of Africa (or out of an African 'enclave' in Sinai or Negev, which E-M123 and/or E-M34 just might be), not upstream E-Z830.
This is one of the reasons why I said that these samples likely have nothing to do with the Sahelian crops. These E carriers are much more likely to derive from the same OOA waves as the recently sampled Natufians.
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Here for the sake of pushing scholarship on ES. Being that later studies shy away from mentioning any anthropological similarities between samples of these regions and Africa.
I am now getting my head around this new analytical technique. I am under the impression that DNATribes is currently using a similar technique
=======
Inference of Population Splits and Mixtures from Genome-Wide Allele Frequency Data - Joseph K. Pickrell (Nov2012)
Author Summary
However, it has long been recognized that, since populations from the same species exchange genes, simple bifurcating trees may be an incorrect representation of population histories. We have developed a method to address this issue, using a model which allows for both population splits and gene flow. In application to humans, we show that we are able to identify a number of both previously known and unknown episodes of gene flow in history, including gene flow into Cambodia
We infer that the Mozabite are the result of admixture between an African and a Middle Eastern population (with about 33% of their ancestry from Africa), and that Middle Eastern populations also have African ancestry (Palestinians and Bedouins: w~13% from Africa; Druze: w~6%). This is consistent with previously reported admixture proportions from these populations [43,55]. Additionally, we identify the known European ancestry in the Maya (w~12%) [21], and infer that the Uyghur and Hazara populations are the result of admixture between west Eurasian and East Asian populations (w~46% and 47% from west Eurasia, respectively) [20,21,56]. Several additional migration events in the human data have not been previously examined in detail, but are consistent with previous clustering analysis of these populations [7,20,21]. These include migration from Africa to the Makrani and Brahui in Central Asia (w~5%) and from a population related to East Asians and Native Americans (which we interpret as likely Siberian) to Russia (w~11%). Two inferred edges were unexpected. First, perhaps the most surprising inference is that Cambodians trace about 16% of their ancestry to a population equally related to both Europeans and other East Asians (while the remaining 84% of their ancestry is related to other southeast Asians). This is partially consistent with clustering analyses, which indicate shared ancestry between Cambodians and central Asian populations [7]. To confirm that the Cambodians are admixed, we turned to less parameterized models. The predicted admixture event implies that allele frequencies in Cambodia are more similar to those in African populations than would be expected based on their East Asian ancestry. To test this, we used three-population tests [37]. We tested the trees [African, [Cambodian,Dai]] for evidence of admixture in the Cambodians (Methods). When using any African population, there is [u]strong evidence [/u]of admixture (when using Yoruba, Z~{7:0 [p~1|10{12]; when using Mandenka, Z~{7:3 [p~1|10{12]; when using San, Z~{4:8 [p~8|10{7]).
Finally, we infer an admixture edge from the Middle East (a population related to the Mozabite, a Berber population from northern Africa) [font color="e63219"]to[/font] southern European populations (w~22%). This migration edge is the one edge that is not consistent across independent runs of TreeMix on these data (Figure S8). In particular, an alternative graph (albeit with lower likelihood) places the Mozabite as an admixture between southern Europe and Africa [font color="e65219"](rather than the Middle East and Africa[/font]), and does not include an edge from the middle East to southern Europe. We thus hesitate to interpret this result, except to note that the relationship between northern African, the Middle East, and southern Europe involves complex patterns of gene flow that merit further investigation [43,57].
For example, in the human data, note that we see no evidence of the documented gene flow from Neandertals to all non-African populations [39] (Figure 3B). The reason for this is that the large number of populations with admixture can be accommodated in the tree by allowing the branch from Neandertals to Africans to be slightly underestimated (additionally, by using ===
What does it all mean? The researchers are getting really good at deciphering direction of migration. From the above they concluded “recent” Africans migrated to Cambodia, Bedouins, Druze, Makrani and Brahui(Harrapan Valley of India).
For the Mozabite, they see evidence of North Africans to Europe. There ares also similarities between North Africans and some Middle East Populations. Thery are unsure on the direction. They are leaning towards the Saharan/Basal EEF as DNATribes.
This is going to be a great year. A revealing year.
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Tukuler
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posted
Yepper that TreeMix shows Mandenka (W Sahel) into (IndoPak) Makrani. 10 migration events is really running TreeMix past full throttle.
posted
That is NOT true! Lazaridis and Skoglund both admit the possibility of an African origin of EEF/Basal Eurasian.
Do you want me to quote it. ... from the quote-miner.
Can you not openingly lie young man.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Lazaridis et al used the lack of E in Iran Neolithic (as well as the lower proportion of Basal Eurasian in Natufians compared to Iranian samples) as evidence against an African origin of Basal Eurasian.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Yepper that TreeMix shows Mandenka (W Sahel) into (IndoPak) Makrani. 10 migration events is really running TreeMix past full throttle.
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posted
As of yesterday a lot of the Y SNP calls are supposed to be bogus. They were using some new automatic caller that apparently sucks. They were alerted to it and are supposedly going to “check” their data.
See the comments on the original twitter post.
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Here for the sake of pushing scholarship on ES. Being that later studies shy away from mentioning any anthropological similarities between samples of these regions and Africa.
I thought you had uploaded a genetic analysis relating to the Hotu genome. Hence my previous comment of reading it later.
If lay people want to read this paper, that's good. Certainly beats listening to what the anthro blogs say. Angel points out some important things that are easy to understand for lay people. But the paper is too difficult for most people, as far as understanding the full picture of what I was pointing to when I posted that link. The Hotu sample is not obviously strongly African in phenotype because its hybridized and because of some of the generalized features are not diagnostic of any one particular population.
One day I will give my full take on this sample for people who don't know what to look for.
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Swenet don't feed him.
It's not that serious with me and gramps. But this is why the Funkflex clip was so relevant. Gramps and others will go to weird lengths to defend him. Lazaridis co-authored the paper in the OP. Look at the maps depicting geneflow. Africa is completely empty of geneflow that originated in Africa, while Eurasia is buzzing with geneflow involving African ancestry. The wtf moments just keep piling up with these papers. They are going to keep doing this and gramps is just getting played defending people who want to keep Africa out of the conversation. Meanwhile gramps is content with the few bones he's thrown.
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Actually! this is complete calls for each specimen... Some people might be able to understand how to interpretit so I won't delete it, but this is a raw output from YHaplo.
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So who are the folks calling out the errors in this DNA analysis in the papers and why is it significant?
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: So who are the folks calling out the errors in this DNA analysis in the papers and why is it significant?
It's not really even that deep. Some of the haplogroups assigned are younger in age that the samples themselves, not only that but some pre-sequenced samples have been reassigned using this method... so people are on edge.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: So who are the folks calling out the errors in this DNA analysis in the papers and why is it significant?
It's not really even that deep. Some of the haplogroups assigned are younger in age that the samples themselves, not only that but some pre-sequenced samples have been reassigned using this method... so people are on edge.
Thats cool. But who is questioning these results? Are any of YOU guys the source or is it other scholars or other laymen?
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That’s right Oshun. Nothing personal between Swenet and I. We both know it. He is a big boy and he has some. Why don’t you grow some. That said, this has nothing to do with “throwing bones”. Yes, they have totally disregarding the African haplgroups in their conclusion but we should realize by now they have lost. Ignoring fundamentally AFRICAN haplogroups in South Asia is bordering on absurd now. They are frantically avoiding the elephant in the room. It is really hilarious when you read their conclusion/discussion and interpretations. Reich is “sticking to his story” at all cost. He is “going down with the ship”…eh Steppes. Lol! “That’s my story and I am sticking to it”. Theys guys got big egos and they will twist the data to suit their views regardless as to how ludcuors the hypotheisis is. Did you look at their migration map? It is too funny…like a spider web. GTFOH!!!! Steppes??!!
No Dr Reich (Lazaridis boss?) Sergi, DNATribes and xyyman got it correct. Neolithic Africans seems to be very late to the Harrapan Valley. As I said before regarding the haplogroups age. AMH, both waves, left Africa very recently.
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@Doug Everybody's questioning them tbh. And looking at the output I posted above they have reason to. When sequencing the did a poor job of targeting Y-Snps. This is surprisingly bad for an aDNA paper. We might have to eat these calls.
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You know I almost crapped myself looking at the data this morning. The idea came to my head that “did AMH originate in Asia and not Africa?”(Dienekes)…..This dataset is disturbing and all levels. Is that an A00(I6118) am I seeing in that packet that ELMaestro posted. Beyoku brought up the point about the Age. Should I go where the data takes me?
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: @Doug Everybody's questioning them tbh. And looking at the output I posted above they have reason to. When sequencing the did a poor job of targeting Y-Snps. This is surprisingly bad for an aDNA paper. We might have to eat these calls.
Thanks. The reason I asked is because there has to be a process for submitting feedback. And I assume anybody can't just respond to their papers any kind of way. Just curious if any of you guys have tried to submit feedback. The point being that most people reading these papers aren't going to go through the effort to try and reproduce their results or double check their work by running their own DNA analysis programs. And of those who are doing it, it certainly would be a waste of time if such irregularities and inconsistencies cannot be reported to the authors.....
Edit: Seems xxyman provided the info.
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This is a first? "*****In the spirit of open science****,
"*****In the spirit of open science****, the authors of this study are inviting anyone who wishes to look carefully at this manuscript to write to us to let us know (a) if you find any errors, and (b) if you have any suggestions for changes that we could incorporate in the revision. We are also posting the data for the 362 newly reported ancient samples on our website and are open to suggestions for new analyses to include in our final submitted manuscript. If you wish to access the full analysis dataset including previously published samples some of which require a signed letter affirming certain conditions before for data release, please write to David Reich (reich@genetics.med.harvard.edu)"
from a commentor "Share › − Avatar Shi Huang • a day ago Why no discussion at all on Y and mtDNA data? May be something inconvenient? Why were Y chr haplotype A and BT so commonly found in ancient Turkmenistan (in supplementary table), when only CT are thought to have left Africa in the OOA model?"
so...do we have West Africans carrying A00 into the Indus Valley? This is getting good. He! HE! He! The shyte has really hit the fan.
@ED..yep, it is not a good year for Eurocentrics and those "pretending" to be AfroCentrics indeed.
To those who are into geography(remember I said genes always mimic geography or was it Sforza who said that?), anyways, Turkmenistan is NORTH of Iran/Persia. Meaning? 2000BC Obviously these Africans also occupied Iran. Right? Or maybe they “teleported” by-passing Persia. Keep in mind Persia is right connect to Yemen. Significance?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: So who are the folks calling out the errors in this DNA analysis in the papers and why is it significant?
It's not really even that deep. Some of the haplogroups assigned are younger in age that the samples themselves, not only that but some pre-sequenced samples have been reassigned using this method... so people are on edge.
Thats cool. But who is questioning these results? Are any of YOU guys the source or is it other scholars or other laymen?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Anyweay the authors invite corrections to any of that massive set of data realizing it takes mode one mod one data peeling to catch unintentional errors or omissions.
No, I wasn't making an April's Fool. I personally know how hard it is to maintain massive data transfer integrity .
Without a seperate IT team to scrub the data, error can go undetected.
Realizing they have errors VNM put out a call for readers, everyday layman like me and you, to alert the authors of possible entry mistakes.
If you wish to access the full analysis dataset including previously published samples some of which require a signed letter affirming certain conditions before for data release, please write to David Reich (reich@genetics.med.harvard.edu)
Wanted to include R errors one guy found but it wouldn't allow me to copy. Try again later.
Fucking oversize image stretching this page too wide for my phone. Image hosts can resize for you, try using their message board option.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You know I almost crapped myself looking at the data this morning. The idea came to my head that “did AMH originate in Asia and not Africa?”(Dienekes)…..This dataset is disturbing and all levels. Is that an A00(I6118) am I seeing in that packet that ELMaestro posted. Beyoku brought up the point about the Age. Should I go where the data takes me?
There's only 18 alleles on the Y-chrom available for I6197 ...18
This man could carry alien DNA and we would even know. Matterfact outside of the E1b1b samples all of the African Haplogroups as well as the CT's and BT's are low coverage and probably wrong af.
Welp..That'll probably be all from me as it relates to this study. I said my pieces, gg's.
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posted
This is what I think Beyoku was alluding to..
Sample I2312_D is dated as 12000-8000 BCE Belt Cave Alborz Iran. But carry a young Bantu African haplogroup E1b1a1c2c3c. Younger than Mota. Also Gonur(Turmenistan) samples dated at 2500BCE carry a heavy dose of African yDNA A. As I mentioned This land mass is North of Persia. So do we have a heavy African presence right around the time of the Indus Valley Civilization? They were probably imported as slaves to help build irregardless their skeleton were draped as High Officials. Wink! Wink!
Period: Bronze Age Dates: c. 3300 – c. 1300 BCE Geographical range: South Asia
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Tukuler
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Thx
Coulda swore Maestro was onto E-Z60nn (6006,6019) so your Z830 is got me dazed.
This's why nrY must ID by LABmutation# I get dizzy figrin out what E1b1a1a1c2c3c is supposed to be.
Will review when sober.
Help! Is Z6008 a typo for Z16008? It's all dwnstrm CTS6649?
All E samples, haplogroups and mutations that they have ^
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Thx. That capsule saves me jumping screens and jumbling dislexia.
So unfortunately the Atlantic African E1b1a might be ??? What exactly does poor cov mean as far as accuracy of assignment?
Still concerned with W Sahel people with their crops in IndoPak as far as the article may imply some minor W Sahel peopling apparently from two sources since the Western Division has Atlantics and Mandenkas.
posted
So some of these resreachers read the blogs....
from Davidski...on the paper.. "Lenny Dykstra said... No IVC samples....
Reich definitely got fed up with the Indians that had custodianship over those IVC samples, trying to contort the data to fit with an "Mesolithic North Indian Continuity" model or some such BS.
Reich releasing this paper without their input forces the hand of the would-be saboteurs. Now if they try to release an IVC paper without mentioning BA steppe input into modern Indians, or even more absurd they leave the door open for an Out of India IE model etc and then refuse to publicly release the sample data, then we'll all know the jig is up.
April 2, 2018 at 7:56 AM Blogger Nick Patterson (Broad) said... @Lenny Dykstra:
I am extremely grateful to my South Asian collaborators (and this goes for the whole Reich lab.); they are honest, excellent scientists. There's a simple reason we have not published on DNA from the IVC proper -- we have no useful DNA, and as you might guess this is not from lack of trying.
Nick"
April 2, 2018 at 8:15 AM Blogger Mr Snow said... @Nick Patterson Stop giving legitimacy to this garbage blog. Actually considering how your paper tried so hard to push a Kurganist agenda in spite of the data pointing to the contrary looks like you're a big fan of Davidski's delusions.
April 2, 2018 at 8:36 AM Blogger Dude ManBro said... Mr. Snow, really? You're going to insult an authority in the field because you don't like, what you assume to be, his interpretation of the data? C'mon, man...
April 2, 2018 at 8:49 AM Blogger Kurti said...
-------------
BTW Mr Snow was informally "banned" like your truly..
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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To those who are confused(ahem! Oshun) and wondering what is going on here? What ? where? and when? These samples are not really of the Indus Valley Civilization from my understanding BUT we can infer based upon..
WHEN the samples represent WHERE the samples were taken, WHAT were the haplogroups …and of course WHO
WHO were the samples. Elite or l lumpenproletariat?
What was the dominant haplogroup arriving in the area immediately before, during and near the IVC
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: So unfortunately the Atlantic African E1b1a might be ??? What exactly does poor cov mean as far as accuracy of assignment?
In this particular case in means that they lack basically all relevant upstream mutations.
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So some of these researchers do participate in the blogs AND DO READ THEM…T-Rex?
--------------------------------- Nick Patterson
PUBLICATIONS Reich D, et al. Genetic history of an archaic hominin group from Denisova Cave in Siberia. 2010 December 23. Nature. 468, 1053–1060.
Green RE, et al. A draft sequence of the Neandertal genome. 2010 May 7. Science. 328 (5979): 710-722.
Reich, D, et al. Reconstructing Indian population history. 2009 September 24. Nature 461, 489-494.
Nick Patterson, Ph.D., is a senior computational biologist in the Medical and Population Genetics Program at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard. His work involves applying new statistical methodologies to complex genetic data, focusing on human medical genetics. His work at the Broad has ranged widely, encompassing the study of the medical genetics of African American, Latino, and Indian populations, to understanding the evolutionary path of modern humans from the time of the Neandertals.
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posted
Suffice to say it helps that people are "paying attention" to these papers and spotting the inconsistencies.
And there are political agendas all over the place. India being one example, with issues surrounding "decolonization" of history being dominant today.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: India being one example, with issues surrounding "decolonization" of history being dominant today.
what you call decolonization of history is intertwined with Hindu nationalism that has it's own political agenda
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The finding of Y-DNA E in some of the ancient South Asian samples aside...
quote:Instead, Steppe communities integrated farther south throughout the 2nd millennium BCE, and we show that they mixed with a more southern population that we document at multiple sites as outlier individuals exhibiting a distinctive mixture of ancestry related to Iranian agriculturalists and South Asian hunter-gathers. We call this group Indus Periphery because they were found at sites in cultural contact with the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) and along its northern fringe, and also because they were genetically similar to post-IVC groups in the Swat Valley of Pakistan.
I've felt for a while now that the actual Indus Valley people would be at least predominantly Ancestral South Indian (ASI) since the first admixture event between ASI and Ancestral North Indian (ANI) has been dated sometime after the IVC/Vedic period transition. The finding that people immediately to the northwest of the IVC territory had ASI ancestry in addition to Iranian would be consistent with this, since it would show that ASI once spread further north than it does today. Any thoughts on this?
Tukuler
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posted
All that A. None of it in the summary chart. Hmm. Good looking Mensa. You done it again. The A, I'm assuming is African, is all dated c. 2500-1600 BCE except one c. 400 BCE. One of the others' lower range is 1700 BCE.
A00? Today in Mbo. Yesterday in transSahel to transIndian Ocean introduction and assimilation of Pearl Millet in India?
Atlantic-Mandenka downstream CTS6649 is at c. 10000 BCE in Iran and c. 2000 BCE Turkmenistan. Too far apart for regional continuity or fossil gap or something like we saw E-M2 do with it's 'Berber' branches?
Is 3800 BCE Ukraine E1b1b1 E-M5108 E-M5021 and does it evidence a 3000 year NW SE continuity slope and direction of secondary movement as further downstream E1b1b1 hints?
Are we seeing expansion of West African Farmers commencing just before the Monsoon Age retreat and congealing with iron's invention and new and improved farming methods spread to 1400-800 BCE Arabian Sea India?
That summary chart indicates 33% E1 for S Asia IA. That's the E1a and all the E1b1b1b2(a) samples and they all date 1400-800 BCE in the Indo-Pak region. Is this our familiar M35 Z830 pre-M123 as much or more AME* than continental? E1a is a much neglected haplogroup.
An African, way post-OoA, front migration into Eurasia first by one people 'A00' bringing at least Pearl Millet and later probably a different people 'E1a' transplanting crop and cultivation improvements from the westernmost Sahel.
No. I'm not looking forward to no retraction of no E and A data. A precision or three will be just fine. Got mi buds a ready for cachaça, na gimme bacardi.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [...] This dataset is disturbing and all levels. Is that an A00(I6118) am I seeing in that packet that ELMaestro posted.
There's only 18 alleles on the Y-chrom available for I6197 ...18
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: All that A. None of it in the summary chart. Hmm. Good looking Mensa. You done it again.
The A, I'm assuming is African, is all dated c. 2500-1700 BCE except one c. 480 BCE. Some of the others' lower range is closer to 1500 BCE.
A00? Today in Mbo. Yesterday in transSahel to transIndian Ocean introduction and assimilation of Pearl Millet in India?
Atlantic-Mandenka downstream CTS6649 is at c. 10000 BCE in Iran and c. 2000 BCE Turkmenistan. Too far apart for regional continuity or fossil gap or something like we saw E-M2 do with it's 'Berber' branches?
Is 3800 BCE Ukraine E1b1b1 E-M5108 E-M5021 and does it evidence a 3000 year NW SE continuity slope and direction of secondary movement as further downstream E1b1b1 hints?
Are we seeing expansion of West African Farmers commencing just before the Monsoon Age retreat and congealing with iron's invention and new and improved farming methods spread to 1400-800 BCE Arabian Sea India?
That summary chart indicates 33% E1 for S Asia IA. That's the E1a and all the E1b1b1b2(a) samples and they all date 1400-800 BCE in the Indo-Pak region. Is this our familiar M35 Z830 pre-M123 as much or more AME* than continental? E1a is a much neglected haplogroup.
An African, way post-OoA, front migration into Eurasia first by one people 'A00' bringing at least Pearl Millet and later probably a different people 'E1a' transplanting crop and cultivation improvements from the westernmost Sahel.
No. I'm not looking forward to no retraction of no E and A data. A precision or three will be just fine.
It would be even worse if they suddenly claimed all this data should be removed. That would be an even bigger red flag that this data is "cooked".
It would be unfortunate if this is not simply a technical glitch but some kind of wilful omission. Given the political states involved one cannot simply rule that out. We don't live in an ideal world. It would be nice if people were purely objective and told the truth but we know this is not always the case.
But I am definitely overjoyed that this is not the result of Africans scholars and their "messy" politics at work.....
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posted
So do we have another Luxmanda in Persia 2500BCE? Luxmanda carried African mtDNA L2a with 60% "Eurasian" ancestry. Or do we have Abusir with "Eurasian" ancestry and no SSA lineage..keeping in mind Gonur samples carried DEEP African lineage A0(0)? Can't get more African or deep than A00. Right? Did AMH originate in Asia?
They don't mention it because it will mess up their hypothesis and delusion. I am surprise it was actually published. But they did say.."in the interest of science" or something like that, they are trying to come clean. I think. Now the cat is out the bag will this trend continue? Will they continue to come clean? Although I do find it odd that no mtDNA L was found in prehistoric Persian region but yDNA A and E/PN2 is present. Did the African mtDNA L come later? Also why would E-M2 be present in pre-historic North Africa and Persian region and not be in Europe. We know the Sub-Saharan Sickle Trait/Genes are in Indus Valley , Greece, southern Europe etc. So where are the matching haplogroups? Logic is a bitch ........to dogma
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Oh! I don't think the Mbo people migrated to Turmenistan....Geographically ...nah! It is more likely we are back to Sudan who also carry a high frequency of yDNA A albeit not A00...not discovered ..yet.
Quote " E1a is a much neglected haplogroup.". This I agree with. IIRC E1a has been isolated in certain Italian populations. Dating back to pre-history. Sources cited(ED?).
African haplogroups in the paper. I believe E1b1b* is expected but YDNA A(ancient) and E1a is a shocker in the modern population. E1a is also a very African haplogroup. Race is not we make it out to be.
Irula of Indo/Pak
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Elmaestro is correct, the haplogroup assignments are way off. check the dropbox spreadsheet.
the A is not A(xBT), it is just completely unidentifiable because the coverage is so low. it's a null result.
the E1a is not E1a - it has one positive call and four negative calls for that level - but it is E. (well technically it could be some crazy pre-E1a, but far more likely it's just E1b1b1b2 like everything else at that site.)
the E1b1a1a1s are bogus too, they have contradictory upstream markers. the younger one is not even E. the older one (Belt Cave) is unidentifiable below the BT level, but there is no evidence it's E either.
the E1b1b1-M35 *is* legit though. all but one of them are from 1 cemetery in northern Pakistan - the other 6 sites Iron Age Swat Valley have none, so it seems to be a local thing. still, intriguing. the other is from Bronze Age Turkmenistan.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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posted
Are you being "disingenuous" again Capra?? SMH. Maybe you should be working on that team of researchers after all that is their profession and not yours...I think. We all agree they don't shyte about history and have their political agenda with interpreting but at least we expect them to know the basics in their field and have correct "assignment" of haplogroups. That is the least they can do and we expect of them. Leave the data interpretation to the experts which they are not.
Some of you Europeans are so dis-honest. Tsk! Tsk!
That said.
My understanding is( xBT)..is A. So we are back to as many as seven African yDNA A in the prehistoric Persian area and you do know that it still exist up today in the modern popualtions....the current study shows that. Typical Euroepan and your deflection. We have eyes to see for ourselves Capra. But lets supposeyou don't believe it...here is another. SMH. Europeans!!!
Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians- Viola Grugni,
The calls are real Capra. Man! You people just won't stop!!
quote:Originally posted by capra: Elmaestro is correct, the haplogroup assignments are way off. check the dropbox spreadsheet.
the A is not A(xBT), it is just completely unidentifiable because the coverage is so low. it's a null result.
the E1a is not E1a - it has one positive call and four negative calls for that level - but it is E. (well technically it could be some crazy pre-E1a, but far more likely it's just E1b1b1b2 like everything else at that site.)
the E1b1a1a1s are bogus too, they have contradictory upstream markers. the younger one is not even E. the older one (Belt Cave) is unidentifiable below the BT level, but there is no evidence it's E either.
the E1b1b1-M35 *is* legit though. all but one of them are from 1 cemetery in northern Pakistan - the other 6 sites Iron Age Swat Valley have none, so it seems to be a local thing. still, intriguing. the other is from Bronze Age Turkmenistan.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Assuming some of you newbies don't get it. Yes, there is an indigenous African presence in Iran, Pakistan area. A few studies have hypothesize about that. The OP has provided direct evidence by sampling these ancient peoples from Turkmenistan which borders with Pakistan and Iran. These African haplogroups were probably dominant from the late Neolithic through the Iron Age. Their high frequency did not just appear suddenly. Sergi was correct.
It looks like these Africans got assimilated or died out but remnants still remain up to today.
As you can see E-PN2 is found wide-spread in Iran, Turkey, Indus Valley Area and modern and now ancient Turkmenistan!!!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
nope, they ran the Y call data through a program which apparently bases its haplogroup assignment on the most downstream positive mutation - even if it's contradicted by 50 negative calls at a dozen levels upstream - and didn't check the results by eyeball. that's okay, it is a preprint not a finished paper, the whole point is to let people review it for errors.
i suppose when they fix the incorrect assignments a number of clowns around here will claim they are covering up all that African DNA again - and will never, ever bother checking the data for themselves.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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posted
The worst part... ...The worst part Is that Uniparentals get sooo much attention here. And no matter how much haplogroups are explained, certain people just keep going on and on with the same narrative. The dropbox file I posted is almost as raw you can get as an output from yhaplo. If you know what you're looking at there's no excuse for pushing certain theories.
...I'm mad that this is the only active thread. Turns out to be the most meaningless one in like 6 months.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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posted
Uniparental markers get the most attention because unlike ADMIXTURE charts the data cannot be misconstrued. You know that! Admixture only shows 'shared" DNA. Uniparental markers shows "origin" ie direction of migration. Albeit there are new tools that can use autosomal markers to infer migration direction. Example GPS and TreeMix and it looks like the new one is MOMI2. But TreeMIx can be manipulated. And of course there is CODIS/STR markers which these racialist researchers run away from.
and @Capra. It is too late. Horse has left the barn. As you can see PN-2 is wide-spread throughout Iran and Turkey and the entire middle East. Along with YDNA A
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians- Viola Grugni,
.
,
quote: Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians-Viola Grugni,
This continuous invasion of populations with different origin and culture created an interesting mix of different ethnic groups speaking a variety of Indo-Iranian, Semitic and Turkic languages and encompassing Arabs, Armenians, Assyrians, Azeris, Baluchs, Bandaris, Gilaks, Kurds, Lurs, Mazandarani, Persians, Qeshm people, Turkmens, Zoroastrians and a group of so-called Afro-Iranians, which might be the result of the slave trade with Zanzibar. Despite the great potentiality of this genetic scenario in providing useful information to reconstruct traces of ancient migrations, only few studies have investigated the multi-ethnic components of the Iranian gene pool [8]–,,,,,,[15].
8. Quintana-Murci L, Krausz C, Zerjal T, Sayar SH, Hammer MF, et al. (2001) Y-chromosome lineages trace diffusion of people and languages in southwestern Asia. Am J Hum Genet 68: 537–542.
9. Nasidze I, Quinque D, Ozturk M, Bendukidze N, Stoneking M (2005) MtDNA and Y-chromosome variation in Kurdish groups. Ann Hum Genet 69: 401–412.
10. Farjadian S, Ghaderi A (2006) Iranian Lurs Genetic Diversity: An Anthropological View Based on HLA Class II Profiles. Iran J Immunol 3: 106–113.
11. Nasidze I, Quinque D, Rahmani M, Alemohamad SA, Stoneking M (2006) Concomitant replacement of language and mtDNA in South Caspian populations of Iran. Curr Biol 16: 668–673.
13. Farjadian S, Ghaderi A (2007) HLA class II similarities in Iranian Kurds and Azeris. Int J Immunogenet 34: 457–463.
14. Lashgary Z, Khodadadi A, Singh Y, Houshmand SM, Mahjoubi F, et al. (2011) Y chromosome diversity among the Iranian religious groups: A reservoir of genetic variation. Ann Hum Biol 38: 364–371.
15. Terreros MC, Rowold DJ, Mirabal S, Herrera RJ (2011) Mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal stratification in Iran: relationship between Iran and the Arabian Peninsula. J Hum Genet 56: 235–246.
_________________________________
^^ damn Europeans and their fake slave trade histories "Zanzibar" tsk tsk !
It's the same thing in America the fake stories about a slave ships from Africa but they can't find the slave ships! Black people was already there before these damn Euros even arrived !!!
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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...I'm mad that this is the only active thread. Turns out to be the most meaningless one in like 6 months.
somebody bumped up a bunch of old dead threads
That was already addressed stop instigating
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Uniparental markers get the most attention because unlike ADMIXTURE charts the data cannot be misconstrued. You know that! Admixture only shows 'shared" DNA. Uniparental markers shows "origin" ie direction of migration. Albeit there are new tools that can use autosomal markers to infer migration direction. Example GPS and TreeMix and it looks like the new one is MOMI2. But TreeMIx can be manipulated. And of course there is CODIS/STR markers which these racialist researchers run away from.
and @Capra. It is too late. Horse has left the barn. As you can see PN-2 is wide-spread throughout Iran and Turkey and the entire middle East. Along with YDNA A
pick one... are you confused? or are you scum? You've been told 4 times now that those assignments are false in part due to extremely low coverage.
Let all of us know from now what your intentions are. Are you thinking of yourself, clout chasing? or are you genuinely not understanding whats going on.
I honestly hope to god it is the latter.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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