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I always thought blond-haired, blue-eyed, and pasty-pale Northern Europeans were among the modern humans most physically adapted to a cold, sub-polar environment. But some recent reading has made me wonder if that record actually goes to so-called "Mongoloid" people (e.g. East Asians, Native Americans, and Polynesians). For instance, this study on ear wax from 2006 suggests that the drier, lighter-colored ear wax found in "Mongoloid" groups may be an adaptation to colder environments, along with a number of other distinctive characteristics we associate with those populations.
quote:Earwax comes in two types, wet and dry. The wet form predominates in Africa and Europe, where 97 percent or more of the people have it, and the dry form among East Asians, while populations of Southern and Central Asia are roughly half and half. By comparing the DNA of Japanese with each type, the researchers were able to identify the gene that controls which type a person has, they report in the Monday issue of Nature Genetics.
They then found that the switch of a single DNA unit in the gene determines whether a person has wet or dry earwax. The gene's role seems to be to export substances out of the cells that secrete earwax. The single DNA change deactivates the gene and, without its contribution, a person has dry earwax.
The Japanese researchers, led by Koh-ichiro Yoshiura of Nagasaki University, then studied the gene in 33 ethnic groups around the world. Since the wet form is so common in Africa and in Europe, this was likely to have been the ancestral form before modern humans left Africa 50,000 years ago.
The dry form, the researchers say, presumably arose later somewhere in northern Asia, because they detected it almost universally in their tests of northern Han Chinese and Koreans. The dry form becomes less common in southern Asia, probably because the northerners with the dry earwax gene intermarried with southern Asians carrying the default wet earwax gene. The dry form is quite common in Native Americans, confirming other genetic evidence that their ancestors migrated across the Bering straits from Siberia 15,000 years ago.
The Japanese team says that the earwax-affecting gene, known to geneticists as the ATP-binding cassette C11 gene, lies with three other genes in a long stretch of DNA that has very little variation from one person to another. Lack of variation in a sequence of DNA units is often the signature of a new gene so important for survival that it has swept through the population, erasing all the previous variation that had accumulated in the course of evolution.
But earwax seems to have the very humble role of being no more than biological flypaper, serving to prevent dust and insects entering the ear. Since it seems unlikely that having wet or dry earwax could have made much difference to an individual's fitness, the earwax gene may have some other, more important function. Dr. Yoshiura and his colleagues suggest the gene would have been favored because of its role in sweating.
They write that earwax type and armpit odor are correlated, since populations with dry earwax, such as those of East Asia, tend to sweat less and have little or no body odor, whereas the wet earwax populations of Africa and Europe sweat more and so may have greater body odor. Several Asian features, such as small nostrils and the fold of fat above the eyelid, are conjectured to be adaptations to the cold. Less sweating, the Japanese authors suggest, may be another adaptation to the cold climate in which the ancestors of East Asian peoples are thought to have lived.
Myles Axton, the editor of the journal that is publishing the report, said he was not persuaded by the argument that the dry earwax gene had been favored by natural selection. New versions of a gene can also become universal in a population through a random process known as genetic drift. The dry form of the gene could have become universal in the ancestral population of northeast Asia by drift alone, and then spread to other regions of the world by migration, he said.
The single mutation in the earwax gene is one in which a G (for guanine) is replaced with an A (for adenine). People who inherit the version of the gene that has A from both parents have dry earwax. Those who carry two of the G versions, or one G and one A, are destined to live with wet earwax.
The suggestion that the distinctive "Mongoloid" eye shape may be another example of a cold adaptation was particularly intriguing to me. We don't tend to consider these populations to be "white" in the European sense, yet they might actually be better suited to cold climates than less pigmented Europeans!
The next time Djehuti has time to visit this forum, I wonder if he has any insight into this topic.
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I always thought the Pale Skin in Europeans was an adaption to the Cloudy and Forested enviroments of Europe rather than to just the cold, for example you have folks like the Eskimo who have brown to yellowish-white skin and dark hair
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White skin isn't a adaptation but a mutation. The pygmies of central Africa are are anthropologically older than Europeans and aren't particularly light skin also you can develop skin cancer from UV rays reflecting off of snow and most of the countries with the highest skin cancer are populated by whites so it makes no sense to think their lack of melanin was beneficial when all other creatures in the present of the sun has the ability to deal with it.
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: White skin isn't a adaptation but a mutation.
Wrong, adaptions are mutations. Human beings have low level mutations all the time many of them occur randomly. Nature does that "purposely" because some of these small mutations can build up over generations to be an advantage. If one of these traits not advantage then there won't be more offspring being born with it. Mutations most often occur randomly such that offspring of the same parents are a tiny bit different, one a centimeter taller than the other or one with better eyesight than another. This may have no effect. But is some environments it may be an advantage or disadvantage and over generations in slightly more successful offspring the trait accumulates. That is natural selection. At other times a small population migrates and they don't bring with them every variation of their group just who happens to be in the sub group and when the settle somewhere else those people multiply and the populations takes on the character of the small sub group that left. That is called bottle-necking.
In Africa with all the variation of different types of Africans, tall, short, lighter, darker,different features All of that is due to mutations. Some of the mutations are adaptive. Some have no advantage but they still exist due to bottle-necking
Had these mutations not occurred all Africans would look the same
With some exceptions Africans who live close to the equator are darker on average then African who live further away. If a very dark Dinka person of Sudan went to live in Southern Africa many generations later they would probably become lighter. Not necessarily because it would be an advantage. It could be an advantage or it might not be. It could be the result of "relaxing of constraint". That means the sun is not as intense there and their skin does not need to be as dark so the natural selection process stops selecting for skin color so dark. In other words that level of darkness is no longer needed, the person could be the shade of Nelson Mandela and survive just as well.
People all over the Northern Hemisphere are on average (key words on average) much lighter than people to the south. This being multi millions of East Asians, multi millions of Europeans, Central Asians. And both of those groups get progressively darker in the southern regions of their territories. There is a reason for that. So, with some exceptions due to other factors as well the broader pattern is skin darkness is relative to the proximity to the equator.
Some Eskimos are light skinned and others a little darker. Some have not been living that far up north for that many thousands of years, maybe only a few thousand. Others appear darker when you look at their tanned faces but their bodies under the clothes are much lighter. That could also turn into an adaptation itself over thousands of years where their faces would become naturally darker than their bodies due to thousands of years of wearing clothes. Those clothes will be consistently covering their bodies because in those Northern environments they will simply die outside without being well covered. A light skinned person can also absorb sunlight faster into the lower levels of their skin where it can be processed into vitamin D because their skin has less protection. That is an advantage in low intensity sunlight areas. Only a small amount of people in the world live in the far north arctic extremes. The light skin is a disadvantage in high intensity sunlight areas. Dark skinned people's skin is more protective in the high intensity sunlight areas. Only the top layer of their skin contains dead cells of melanin. All the other layers are white but appear red if blood is running through it. A lot of excess sunlight gets absorbed in this top layer with the melanin and is thus is trapped there being neutralized from penetrating deep where it could cause burns or radioactive damage. Only a smaller portion of the sunlight gets beyond that top melanin layer and crosses into the lowest layer of skin where vitamin d is processed . The Eskimos eat a lot of oily fish so they don't even need vitamin D from the sun. Nevertheless only some of them are brown skinned, the average one is definitely not as dark as the average Nigerian and there is a reason for that. However the vitamin D theory is not even needed. One simply does not have to be as dark as someone from Senegal to live in Russia or France so the natural selection process will not keep selecting for that level of dark skin. There are multi millions of light skinned East Asians and light skinned Europeans, their very existence in those large numbers show that the skin cancer rate is not high enough to have kept their population from getting that big. The highest rate of melanoma is in Australia. About 34 people for every 100,000. That is much lower than 1 percent. 1 percent of 100,000 is 1000 not 34. And if we look the 34 people only a fraction are going to die from it. So with many other cancers being more deadly we can see how millions of whites came to be the majority in Australia and that the prevalence of all sorts of cancers is not enough to stop population growth. Long before the invention of sunscreen they had been using a technology called clothing and hats. Also, a lot of world skin cancer rates are driven up by the bizarre historically recent habit of sunbathing on the beach to get a tan.
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How folks interpret mutation is never seen as a positive even though usage doesn't imply something being inherently bad so adaptation vs mutation takes on different depending on the context.
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White Peoples skin color comes in different shades, some, id say the vast majority have the ability to produce some form of Melanin. Also a lot of non Europeans have light skin, your ideology about it not being beneficial makes no sense when so many peoples around the world have light skin, sometimes of the same tone as various Europeans.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: White skin isn't a adaptation but a mutation. The pygmies of central Africa are are anthropologically older than Europeans and aren't particularly light skin also you can develop skin cancer from UV rays reflecting off of snow and most of the countries with the highest skin cancer are populated by whites so it makes no sense to think their lack of melanin was beneficial when all other creatures in the present of the sun has the ability to deal with it.
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The Lioness summed it up well, your assertion has no scientific basis.
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: How folks interpret mutation is never seen as a positive even though usage doesn't imply something being inherently bad so adaptation vs mutation takes on different depending on the context. [/QB]
It does matter what the average folks who don't understand genetics think is a negative connotation on a word.
This is a forum where people know a lot more about genetics than the average person. So there is no excuse for not looking up what "adaptation" and "mutation" mean biologically
Adaptation is a form of genetic mutation, that is not interpretation
Mutation is what creates diversity
. A human being has no way of easily observing adaptations which happen gradually over thousands of years. We can't see the genes by eye. Therefore there is no point in using the words unless you know what the words actually mean
Look at the wide variety of Africans, very tall, very short, some very dark, others not so dark,different facial features
All of that is due to genetic mutations or genetic recombination.
A person's genetic code can have a large number of mutations but only a small percentage of mutations cause genetic disorders—most have no impact on health or development. For example, some mutations alter a gene's DNA sequence but do not change the function of the protein made by the gene. Other can turn out to be an advantage. For some conditions, having one mutated copy of a gene in each cell is advantageous (example, resistance to malaria)while having two mutated copies of the same gene causes sickle cell.
I don't pretend to be an expert but this is basic biology. Popular connotations of words often donit correspond to proper understanding
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: I always thought blond-haired, blue-eyed, and pasty-pale Northern Europeans were among the modern humans most physically adapted to a cold, sub-polar environment. But some recent reading has made me wonder if that record actually goes to so-called "Mongoloid" people (e.g. East Asians, Native Americans, and Polynesians). For instance, this study on ear wax from 2006 suggests that the drier, lighter-colored ear wax found in "Mongoloid" groups may be an adaptation to colder environments, along with a number of other distinctive characteristics we associate with those populations.
Limb ratios are a more fundamental physical adaptation than are things like eye folds
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: [QB] I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.
To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:
quote:Allen's rule is an ecogeographical rule formulated by Joel Asaph Allen in 1877, broadly stating that animals adapted to cold climates have shorter limbs and body appendages than animals adapted to warm climates.
Some Europeans already have a Siberian component in their ancestry.
Looking at this chart we see Koniag, Ipiutak and Tiagra Those are Asiatic Alaskan people, believed to have Siberian roots and they have the corresponding shorter limbs as expected.
They are tiny in population relative to the larger East Asian populations so they are not representative.
Unfortunately, Chinese, Koreans and Japanese are not recorded in this chart of limb ratios that would have done a lot to inform the issue. Maybe they didn't have data for that
We also see the surprising exception the Upper Paleolithic people of Algeria called Afalou, sometimes called Mechtoid or Paleo-Berber.
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Interesting article about how limb ratios of mountain populations can resemble cold adaption effect on limbs but be due to oxygen levels and other factors of the mountain populations
Thrifty phenotype versus cold adaptation: trade-offs in upper limb proportions of Himalayan populations of Nepal Stephanie Payne , Rajendra Kumar BC , Emma Pomeroy , Alison Macintosh
This relative reduction in zeugopod length with altitude has been attributed to a thrifty phenotype mechanism [43], whereby exposure to environmental stress during early life can lead to growth trade-offs between different body elements. In an Andean population, autopod lengths (hands and feet) were seen to be conserved at the expense of other limb segments (forearm and lower leg) [16]
1.2. Potential cold adaptation
While both the Himalayas and the Andes have considerable local variation in temperature and humidity, high-altitude populations in the Himalayas are exposed to lower temperatures on average compared with Andeans due to differences in latitude, topography, rainfall and ecology [45]. The highland populations of Peru, Ecuador and Bolivia, residing up to as high as 4500 m above sea level, are likely to experience limited seasonality, but a significant range in diurnal temperature [46]. During winter, highlanders in cold, arid regions, such as Oruro and Bolivia, will tend to experience daily temperatures such as 5–10°C, with minimum temperatures dropping to approximately −10°C. Minimum temperatures are significantly lower in Himalayan settlements, reaching below −40°C in winter [47,48]. These lower temperatures may be greater selection pressures for good thermoregulation and minimizing risk of cold injury, and thus thermal selection pressures may have shaped the limb morphology of Himalayan populations unlike other high-altitude populations. Himalayan limb morphology may resemble the cold-adapted patterns found in other populations exposed to low temperatures [49], such as shorter and broader first metacarpals in individuals residing in cold climates than individuals from hot climates. This supports Allen's rule [50], where appendage length is reduced and appendage breadth increased to reduce heat loss in a cold climate.
Thus, applying Allen's rule to predict limb proportions in Himalayan populations, we would expect them to have shorter and broader limbs to minimize heat loss. Minimizing heat loss would reduce energetic demands on the body from maintaining body temperature, which may well be selected for as energetic stress is already strong in these populations as a result of multiple altitude-related stresses. Furthermore, low temperatures would also put individuals at greater risk of cold injury in the extremities [51,52]. Although there are individually reported cases of Sherpas with frostbite [51,53], they tend to have a lower incidence than recreational mountaineers [54,55]. These findings suggest that Sherpa hands may be better adapted to life in cold conditions, but whether hand dimensions play a role remains untested. By measuring hand dimensions of a sample of Sherpas, it may be possible to infer whether both their absolute and relative hand dimensions are suited to heat preservation or not.
As the extremity proportions of permanent Himalayan populations remain poorly documented [12,37,56], it is currently not possible to infer the key environmental stresses in Himalayan high-altitude upper limb morphology and how the trade-off is balanced between dexterity and thermoregulation. Thus, the current study investigates the limb proportions of highland and lowland groups from the Himalayas to determine how the multi-stress environment of high altitude influences limb morphology. and Jay Stock Published:20 June 2018https://doi.org/10.1098/rsos.172174
Abstract
The multi-stress environment of high altitude has been associated with growth deficits in humans, particularly in zeugopod elements (forearm and lower leg). This is consistent with the thrifty phenotype hypothesis, which has been observed in Andeans, but has yet to be tested in other high-altitude populations. In Himalayan populations, other factors, such as cold stress, may shape limb proportions. The current study investigated whether relative upper limb proportions of Himalayan adults (n = 254) differ between highland and lowland populations, and whether cold adaptation or a thrifty phenotype mechanism may be acting here. Height, weight, humerus length, ulna length, hand length and hand width were measured using standard methods. Relative to height, total upper limb and ulna lengths were significantly shorter in highlanders compared with lowlanders in both sexes, while hand and humerus length were not. Hand width did not significantly differ between populations. These results support the thrifty phenotype hypothesis, as hand and humerus proportions are conserved at the expense of the ulna. The reduction in relative ulna length could be attributed to cold adaptation, but the lack of difference between populations in both hand length and width indicates that cold adaptation is not shaping hand proportions in this case.
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So called "Mongoloid" traits are the result of certain mutations but to call these traits "cold adaptive" is misleading.
For one, the alleged "mongoloid" cradle is held to be China, yet most of China is in the temperate zone on the same latitude as the Mediterranean with southern China extending into the subtropics.
Second, in the case of earwax type, you have ancient populations like the Ainu of Japan and probably others in the northern Siberian zone who have wet earwax including indigenous groups in South America. Assuming these people stem from a common ancestry in Ice Age Beringia I don't see how you could equate the trait with climate necessarily.
(white- dry earwax; black- wet earwax)
For the record, yes I do have dry earwax, though I've notice northeast Asians tend to have lighter colored wax while southeast ones like myself have darker wax though I'm basing this on my own anecdotal experience. Due to the dry consistency of our earwax, east Asians also tend to have a much higher incidence of impacted cerumen (earwax blockage) than peoples with wet earwax.
In the case of epicanthic eye folds, you do realize that such a trait is common among many disparate populations throughout the globe including Africans both in Sub-Sahara and North Africa. Though the specific eye folds of Asians has been linked genetically to the EDAR mutation yhat gives East Asians many other stereotypical traits called "mongoloid"
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:In the case of epicanthic eye folds, you do realize that such a trait is common among many disparate populations throughout the globe including Africans both in Sub-Sahara and North Africa. Though the specific eye folds of Asians has been linked genetically to the EDAR mutation yhat gives East Asians many other stereotypical traits called "mongoloid"
I see. Sounds like there's a lot of pleiotropy at work here with EDAR.
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^ Yeah, the G-point SNP for EDAR, 370A is affects appocrine gland function including those of the ear canal that produce ear wax. It is also responsible for thicker cuticles of skin, hair, and nails.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yeah, the G-point SNP for EDAR, 370A is affects appocrine gland function including those of the ear canal that produce ear wax. It is also responsible for thicker cuticles of skin, hair, and nails.
Have you seen any limb ratio data for China, Japan or Korea?
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The Ainu are descendants of male "caucasoid" Aynu of Central Asia (Takla Makan, Tarim Basin, Khotan, West China) who expanded northeast to Amur & Sakhalin & Hokkaido where some married Jomon females that descended from Andamanese "Negritos" coming from Okinawa & Taiwan ("Blacks" of Taiwan), [a branch of which had split away and continued canoeing northward and then eastward along the Beringia south coast and then southward along the California current to become the Surui of Brazil who have wet earwax and Andaman genes.]
They would be expected to have mostly wet earwax. The YAP gene is shared between Andamanese & Jomon, perhaps also in the Surui. When I refer to Papuans making canoes from sago palm rind processing, the Jomon are their descendants that followed the northward current to Okinawa, Beringia coast & west US coast to Brazil.
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^ The Ainu have as much in common with the Tarim Basin peoples as the typical Japanese do! The Ainu are aboriginal to the Japanese islands and descend from the neolithic Jomon. Genetically they are an East Asian people albeit outliers and thus are more related to Koreans than they would be to Western Eurasian descended peoples like the Tarim people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Have you seen any limb ratio data for China, Japan or Korea?
No. But I have seen some for Southeast Asians. What's your point?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti, my data is secure, your data is obsolete, see the recent genetics papers. Ancient Jomon woman had Andaman genes. Ainu have been heavily mixed with later Yamato/Yayoi Korean-North Chinese, but the ancient Ainu were primarily Aynu males that mated Jomon females.
Aynu are classed as Uighur but the males speak a non-Uighur language, indicating they mixed into Uighur society just as Ainu men mixed into Jomon society. Khotan is the Ainu word for village.
The Ainu's oral history refer to the Jomon who **preceded** them as Koropokguru, people who live under the butterburr leaves(dome pit houses thatched with large broadleaf butterburr leaves, a Pygmy trademark). Ainu never lived in these huts, they have a different type of house. Jomon used bark canoes, Ainu used log canoes.
Australia had only bark canoes & rafts until Austronesians from Macassar arrived with logboat canoes not too long before Europeans did.
The modern so-called "Aboriginal Taiwanese" were from southern China, though they may have some bit of original Jomon genes.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The Ainu have as much in common with the Tarim Basin peoples as the typical Japanese do! The Ainu are aboriginal to the Japanese islands and descend from the neolithic Jomon. Genetically they are an East Asian people albeit outliers and thus are more related to Koreans than they would be to Western Eurasian descended peoples like the Tarim people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Have you seen any limb ratio data for China, Japan or Korea?
No. But I have seen some for Southeast Asians. What's your point?
The thread is called Are East Asians and related groups the most cold-adapted Homo sapiens?
Then limb ratio data which is related could be compared between East Asians and Europeans
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^ Limb ratio is just ONE set of traits indicative of climate adaptation but it's not the only one. Unless you can elucidate us about the findings of northeast Asian limb ratio data, I don't see what point your trying to make.
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: Djehuti, my data is secure, your data is obsolete, see the recent genetics papers. Ancient Jomon woman had Andaman genes. Ainu have been heavily mixed with later Yamato/Yayoi Korean-North Chinese, but the ancient Ainu were primarily Aynu males that mated Jomon females.
Sorry but I don't take your claim on data seriously considering that you've made other claims in this forum that are rather baseless. Exactly, which "Andaman genes" are you referring to? You do realize that there are autosomal features the Andaman possess that are held by people as far away as Alaska and South American natives? Also, the paternal clade of Andamanese hg D is also held in common with Tibetans as well as Jomon and their Ainu descendants. Modern day Ainu are heavily mixed with Yamato/Yayoi Japanese but that does not change the fact that they are the most pristine descendants of the Jomon of northern Honshu and Hokkaido.
quote:Aynu are classed as Uighur but the males speak a non-Uighur language, indicating they mixed into Uighur society just as Ainu men mixed into Jomon society. Khotan is the Ainu word for village.
What the hell are you talking about? The Uighur are a Turkic speaking people of Western China. Ainu do not speak Uighur or any Turkic language and have NOTHING to do with Turkic or Altaic peoples. Where are you getting your info from? Clyde Winters?! LOL
quote:The Ainu's oral history refer to the Jomon who **preceded** them as Koropokguru, people who live under the butterburr leaves(dome pit houses thatched with large broadleaf butterburr leaves, a Pygmy trademark). Ainu never lived in these huts, they have a different type of house. Jomon used bark canoes, Ainu used log canoes.
You realize that 'Jomon' is a generic term for Neolithic peoples of Japan and is NOT an actual ethnic group. The Jomon peoples lived from Hokkaido in the north all the way to the Ryukyu Islands in the south. There were always differences in Jomon culture that varied from island to island and even within islands like Honshu for example. Also, cultures change over time so modern Ainu culture is not the same as its ancient ancestors. Which Ainu legend are you citing exactly? The one from Hokkaido or the Emishi legends of Honshu??
quote:Australia had only bark canoes & rafts until Austronesians from Macassar arrived with logboat canoes not too long before Europeans did.
What does this have to do with Japan or northeast Asia?
quote:The modern so-called "Aboriginal Taiwanese" were from southern China, though they may have some bit of original Jomon genes.
You are obviously confused and can't tell the difference between cultural grouping, ethnicity, and genetic population. So until you can know what the differences are I won't even bother debating you.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Limb ratio is just ONE set of traits indicative of climate adaptation but it's not the only one. Unless you can elucidate us about the findings of northeast Asian limb ratio data, I don't see what point your trying to make.
Again, the point is the thread is called "Are East Asians and related groups the most cold-adapted Homo sapiens?" and one of most important metric traits related to that are limb ratios and we have seen no data on East Asian limb ratios
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^ No, what you wrote makes no sense. You can do as much research as you want and I also like doing research, but searching for sources and understanding them are two different things that some on this forum (besides yourself) haven't fully grasped.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Again, the point is the thread is called "Are East Asians and related groups the most cold-adapted Homo sapiens?" and one of most important metric traits related to that are limb ratios and we have seen no data on East Asian limb ratios
I've only seen studies that use Siberian groups like Chuckchi and Inpuak as outliers representing the most cold adapted modern humans.
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Djehuti, I was referring to the MtDNA analysis of a Jomon woman, NOT the aDNA of the Hokaido "Jomon" woman (not a pure Jomon AFAICT, but probably a Ainu-Jomon). Original Jomon had no arctic adaptations, they came from tropical SEAsia and lived in endomed pit houses.
(disgusting that to find data on actual Jomon one must go to an Indo-European website!!)
Many studies making claims about ancient Jomon are actually reporting Ainu x Tungusic genomes and calling them Jomon (false!! they are Nivkh/Gilyak). Pure Jomon came ONLY from the south.
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East Asians' (phenotype) primarily descend from temperate-tundra open-plains semi-nomadic steppe herd hunters, (similar to Southern African Bushmen), strong selection for EDAR & skin tone reflects that.
Note that paleo-lithic ostrich eggshell beads have been found in prehistoric contexts in Southern & Eastern (60ka) Africa and in Northern China. The beads were traded for water assurance in large networks, I think they became a form of currency and calculating system (cf abacus) and eventually the base for center-holed Chinese coins.
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: Djehuti, I was referring to the MtDNA analysis of a Jomon woman, NOT the aDNA of the Hokaido "Jomon" woman (not a pure Jomon AFAICT, but probably a Ainu-Jomon). Original Jomon had no arctic adaptations, they came from tropical SEAsia and lived in endomed pit houses.
^ Exactly which Jomon woman are you referring to and why did you put quotations around the Jomon woman of the recent Hokkaido study?? Again you seem to be a rather confused individual. As I told you the name Jomon refers to a neolithic culture not a specific ethnic group so I don't see how you can apply the label of Jomon to one individual or group of Neolithic Japan and not the other. You say "original Jomon" had no arctic adaptations but had what? Tropical adaptations? Can you cite any source saying anything about Jomon physical adaptations to climate? Also, the SE Asian or Austric origins of the Jomon Culture is a hypothesis with little to no evidence especially since archaeology shows that the lithic industry of the Jomon shows more in common to the Late Ordosian Industry than anything else and that its earliest pottery resembles the Osipovka Culture of the Amur River Basin.
Speaking of genetics, if you are referencing mtDNA in regards to haplogroup D then I take it you are referring to the 2008 study by Shinoda et. al which clearly states: Ancient DNA recovered from 16 Jomon skeletons excavated from Funadomari site, Hokkaido, Japan was analyzed to elucidate the genealogy of the early settlers of the Japanese archipelago. Both the control and coding regions of their mitochondrial DNA were analyzed in detail, and we could securely assign 14 mtDNAs to relevant haplogroups. Haplogroups D1a, M7a, and N9b were observed in these individuals, and N9b was by far the most predominant. The fact that haplogroups N9b and M7a were observed in Hokkaido Jomons bore out the hypothesis that these haplogroups are the (pre‐) Jomon contribution to the modern Japanese mtDNA pool. Moreover, the fact that Hokkaido Jomons shared haplogroup D1 with Native Americans validates the hypothesized genetic affinity of the Jomon people to Native Americans, providing direct evidence for the genetic relationships between these populations. However, probably due to the small sample size or close consanguinity among the members of the site, the frequencies of the haplogroups in Funadomari skeletons were quite different from any modern populations, including Hokkaido Ainu, who have been regarded as the direct descendant of the Hokkaido Jomon people. It appears that the genetic study of ancient populations in northern part of Japan brings important information to the understanding of human migration in northeast Asia and America.
Here is a more recent study from 2013 that includes Jomon samples from Tohoku district south of Hokkaido which was home to the historical Emishi people and the results are similar showing closer relation to Siberian peoples than with Southeast Asians.
All of this only supports my point here.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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(disgusting that to find data on actual Jomon one must go to an Indo-European website!!)
Many studies making claims about ancient Jomon are actually reporting Ainu x Tungusic genomes and calling them Jomon (false!! they are Nivkh/Gilyak). Pure Jomon came ONLY from the south.
Again, you are confusing genetic ancestry with populations. The source you cited says the Jomon share an ancient ancestry with Southeast Asians that goes back millennia before the ancestors of the Jomon settled Japan. This does not mean the Jomon themselves were directly from Southeast Asia!
In Brandon's thread here I showed how this same genetic link found in Andamanese of Southeast Asia is also found in Native Americans. Does this mean the Native Americans or their ancestors from Beringia were black Southeast Asian peoples??
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: East Asians' (phenotype) primarily descend from temperate-tundra open-plains semi-nomadic steppe herd hunters, (similar to Southern African Bushmen), strong selection for EDAR & skin tone reflects that.
We don't know exactly how the modern East Asian phenotype developed. The Southern African Bushmen did not live in "temperate-tundra" climate but rather a subtropical to warm Mediterranean on the coast. Assuming the phenotype arose somewhere in China, then there would be a more temperate to cool type during the Late Pleistocene.[/qb][/quote] What does that have to do with the Jomon people who did not have these traits?
quote:Note that paleo-lithic ostrich eggshell beads have been found in prehistoric contexts in Southern & Eastern (60ka) Africa and in Northern China. The beads were traded for water assurance in large networks, I think they became a form of currency and calculating system (cf abacus) and eventually the base for center-holed Chinese coins.
What does this have to do with the topic?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^^ DD'eDeN there is no need to patronize me. I never said I am always right and never wrong but if you are going to bring up sources, you need to get your facts right. If I am mistaken about something then show me, just as I will to you or anyone else. No hard feelings.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ I read your comments, and again the Indo-European speaking peoples of Tarim Basin China have NOTHING to do with the Ainu. Please cite actual evidence of Tarim Basin peoples migrating into Hokkaido and being ancestral to the Ainu. Especially, since Ainu genetics show NO relation to the Tarim Basin or any West Eurasians but on the contrary to East Eurasian with the Japanese first and foremost.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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