posted
Of course whenever there is OBVIOUS evidence of ancient linkages between KMT and Africa, many scholars claim it is "mysterious". There has never been a myserty about the Land of Punt in my book. It is clearly documented in the temples of Hatshepsut as located in Africa.......
quote: DARTMOUTH COLLEGE—Ancient Punt was a major trading partner of Egyptians for at least 1,100 years. It was an important source of luxury goods, including incense, gold, leopard skins, and living baboons. Located somewhere in the southern Red Sea region in either Africa or Arabia, scholars have debated its geographic location for more than 150 years. A new study tracing the geographic origins of Egyptian mummified baboons finds that they were sourced from an area that includes the modern-day countries of Ethiopia, Eritrea, Dijbouti, Somalia, and Yemen, providing new insight into Punt’s location. Published in eLife, the results also demonstrate the tremendous nautical range of early Egyptian seafarers. A Dartmouth-led team of researchers including primatologists, Egyptologists, geographers, and geochemists, worked together to analyze the isotope composition of baboons discovered in ancient Egyptian temples and tombs, and modern baboons from across eastern Africa and southern Arabia.
Also, you can see the image has been color corrected to look more red than it is in real life.
A lot of the images on Wikipedia for the Hatshepsut expedition have multiple versions with the true colors and another color corrected version.
Such as:
quote: The Egyptians left us mountains of evidence for Punt, none more so than Hatshepsut, whose 3,500-year-old temple at Deir el-Bahri near Thebes contains a veritable book in stone describing Punt. Hatshepsut and other pharaohs sent huge expeditions to Punt—flotillas of robust, seagoing ships with thousands of men. But neither Hatshepsut nor anyone else from ancient times left us any map, any directions or distances, or anything else that definitively pinpoints Punt's location.
So elusive is the answer that, since the mid-19th century, a procession of scholars have, like erudite dart-throwers, stippled the map of the Red Sea area with their often strongly argued proposals for where Punt lay. (Refer to map below throughout this article.) Syria. Sinai. Southern Arabia. Eastern Sudan. Northern Ethiopia. Somalia. Kenya. Each was Punt, insists this or that Egyptologist. New papers continue to appear regularly that try to put this question to bed once and for all. So far, all have failed.
As one scholar who has ventured into this labyrinth, Dmitri Meeks, has phrased it, "Punt 'exists' as if in a void ... the exact whereabouts of which remain more or less unknown."
Why? How can an entire realm or region go missing, as it were? With a steady stream of references across nearly 2,000 years of ancient Egyptian history and highly focused scholarship for 150 years, how can we not know? Where is Punt?
Mummified baboons reveal the far reach of early Egyptian mariners
Nathaniel J Dominy Is a corresponding author, Salima Ikram, Gillian L Moritz, Patrick V Wheatley, John N Christensen, Jonathan W Chipman, Paul L Koch
Spatial estimation of isotope ratios and their differences from target values using Empirical Bayesian Kriging. (a) Specimen locations of modern baboons (black points; source: Appendix 1—table 1) and the normalized difference values for δ18O against our target tissue, the hair of EA6736. (b) Specimen locations of modern baboons (black points; source: Appendix 1—table 2) and the normalized difference values for 87Sr/86Sr ratios against our target tissue, the enamel of EA6738. (c) The combined normalized difference of both isotope ratios against both target tissues. The black line bounds the area within 1 SE. Some points in panels (a) and (b) include multiple samples.
To investigate, Dominy et al. examined the mummies of baboons present in ancient Egyptian tombs, and compared the strontium compositions of the bones, hair and teeth of these remains with the ones found in baboons living in various regions across Africa. This shed a light on the origins of the ancient baboons: while some were probably raised in captivity in Egypt, others were born in modern Ethiopia, Eritrea, Djibouti, Somalia and Yemen – areas already highlighted as potential locations for the Land of Punt.
Baboon a symbol of Thoth, holy figure of Wisdom, Photo by amira el noshokaty
Large 35-ton statue at Hermopolis Magna erected by Amenhotep III, New Kingdom, 18th Dynasty, ca. 1370 BC.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Steatopygia in an overly obese adult female isn't limited to Africans.
The blackness of Queen Hadyo's skin does remind me of Middle Kingdom art.
What is the Euro/Arab level of self-esteem and black hatred to turn this
into that?
=-=
In my mind where a baboon was raised/captured does not tell me where its captors came from.
Hi-lites by me
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber in 2010: Men of Punt
At a recent meeting in Oakland of the American Research Center in Egypt three scientists announced with confidence they had ruled out all of those five locations, and there was no disagreement from the 300 archaeologists there.
quote: Baboon mummy analysis reveals Eritrea and Ethiopia as location of land of Punt
Analysis of mummified baboons in the British Museum has revealed the location of the land of Punt as the area between Ethiopia and Eritrea. To the Egyptians, Punt was a place of fragrances, giraffes, electrum and other exotic goods, and was sometimes referred to as Ta-netjer, or 'God’s land'.
There are several ancient Egyptian texts that record trade voyages to the Land of Punt, dating up until the end of the New Kingdom, 3,000 years ago. But until now scholars did not know where Punt was. Ancient texts offer only vague allusions to its location and no 'Puntite' civilization has been discovered. Somalia, Ethiopia, Yemen and even Mozambique have all been offered as possible locations.
However, it appears that the search for Punt may have come to an end according to new research which claims to prove that it was located in Eritrea/East Ethiopia. Live baboons were among the goods that we know the Egyptians got from Punt. The research team included Professor Salima Ikram from the Egyptian Museum, Cairo, and Professor Nathaniel Dominy and graduate student Gillian Leigh Moritz, both from the University of California, Santa Cruz.
The team studied two baboon mummies in the British Museum. By analysing hairs from these baboons using oxygen isotope analysis, they were able to work out where they originated. Oxygen isotopes act as a 'signal' that can let scientists know where they came from. Depending on the environment an animal lived in, the ratio of different isotopes of oxygen will be different. “Oxygen tends to vary as a function of rainfall and the water composition of plants and seed,” said Professor Nathaniel Dominy of UC Santa Cruz.
Only one of the two baboons was suitable for the research – the other had spent time in Thebes as an exotic pet, and so its isotopic data had been distorted. Working on the baboon discovered in the Valley of the Kings, the researchers compared the oxygen isotope values in the ancient baboons to those found in their modern day brethren. Although isotope values in baboons in Somalia, Yemen and Mozambique did not match, those in Eritrea and Eastern Ethiopia were closely matched. “All of our specimens in Eritrea and a certain number of our specimens from Ethiopia – that are basically due west from Eritrea – those are good matches,” said Professor Dominy.
The team were unable to compare the mummies with baboons in Yemen. However, Professor Dominy reasoned that “We can tell, based on the isotopic maps of the region, that a baboon from Yemen would look an awful lot like a baboon from Somalia isotopically.” As Somalia is definitely not the place of origin for the baboon, this suggests that Yemen is not the place of origin either.
He concluded that “We think Punt is a sort of circumscribed region that includes eastern Ethiopia and all of Eritrea.”
Next, the team hopes to get the British Museum’s permission to take a pea-sized sample of bone from the baboon mummy and use it strontium isotope testing. This would hopefully confirm Eritrea/Eastern Ethiopia as the baboon’s origin and narrow down its location more specifically.
The Queen of Punt, detail scene depicting the expedition to the Land of Punt, painted relief, colonnade of Punt, the mortuary temple of Hatshepsut, Deir el-Bahari, the necropolis of Thebes
I wonder if someone could match this to an ancient necklace, the man has a similar smaller version
this is the controversial part from the above PBS Nova article:
quote: Back to Arabia?
Other experts, while acknowledging the p problem, are not so quick to dismiss Arabia as the Land of Punt. In a 2003 paper—one that Kitchen himself called "a brilliant, most impressive tour de force" even as he challenged its premise—Dmitri Meeks advanced the notion that Punt lay along the entire western coast of the Arabian Peninsula, from the Gulf of Aqaba to Yemen. Meeks says that when one takes all ancient references to Punt into account, the picture becomes clear. "Punt, we are told by the Egyptians, is situated—in relation to the Nile Valley—both to the north, in contact with the countries of the Near East of the Mediterranean area, and also to the east or southeast, while its furthest borders are far away to the south," he writes. "Only the Arabian Peninsula satisfies all these indications."
In one of the most recently proposed hypotheses, Stanley Balanda, in a 2005-2006 paper, offers a sort of compromise between the Kitchen and Meeks theories. Balanda argues that a key expression within Hatshepsut's text has been misinterpreted as saying "by the sea" or "along the sea front" when it really means "on both sides of the sea." If Hatshepsut's expeditionaries had indeed, as Balanda translates one bit of hieroglyphs, "pitched tents for the king's representative and his expedition to the myrrh terraces on both sides of the sea [my italics] in order to receive the chiefs of this land," then one place on the Red Sea presents itself above all others. This is the straits of Bab el Mandeb at the sea's southern end, where today Djibouti and Yemen face each other across narrows no wider than the English Channel. Punt, Balada proposes, was a region of indeterminate size stretching out on both sides of the strait, which lay at the heart of Puntite commercial activities.
the new baboon analysis:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Queen of Punt, looking obviously almost stereotypically African, with Steatopygia:
wikipedia:
Steatopygia, a genetic characteristic leading to increased accumulation of adipose tissue in the buttock region, is found in women of Sub-Saharan African origin, most notably (but not solely) among the Khoisan of Southern Africa and Pygmies of Central Africa. It has also been observed among the Andamanese people, such as the Onge tribe, in the Andaman Islands. This genetic characteristic is prevalent among women but also occurs to a lesser degree in men. __________________________
The baboon's range extends from the Red Sea in Eritrea to Ethiopia, Djibouti and Somalia. Baboons are also native to and live in the Sarawat region of southwestern Arabia, in both Yemen and Saudi Arabia. ____________________________
So what we have above is this peculiar looking Queen of Punt. Her body has flaps of fat. She is obese and her body shape might be one of Steatopygia or a medical condition of some type or an exaggeration by the Egyptian artist. And this body shape is characteristic of some pygmies and khoisan.
But at the same time she appears to have straight hair with a slight wave. The relief nose is broken at the tip and appears to resemble the males of her entourage. So we have a body seemingly characteristic of some pygmies or Khoisan but a head not resembling them at all.
What does it all add up to?
It adds up to a combination of head an body not corresponding to a known population. It doesn't add up
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Baboon a symbol of Thoth, holy figure of Wisdom, Photo by amira el noshokaty
Actually the baboon represents the god Aani the netjer of measurment and balance who is a companion of Tehuti.
Baboons aren't the only animals associated with Punt. There are giraffes, hippopotami, leopards, and the Puntite beast of burden is non other than the donkey. All are African animals.
What's more is that back in 1967, Eva Danelius and Heinz Steinitz wrote the paper 'The Fishes and Other Aquatic Animals on the Punt-Reliefs at Deir el-Baḥri' in which they consulted ichthyologists confirming that not only are the marine fish depicted found in the Red Sea but the freshwater fish are native to Nile tributaries found in East Africa.
So why is there still debate about Punt's location??
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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There is a discussion of a woman’s physique in Maxim 37 of The Instruction of Ptah-hotep, which dates to the Old Kingdom period in Kemet (ca. 2686–2181 BCE).8 The description has been difficult for European translators. Observe the difference in the English translation and the Jamaican translation. There are two Jamaican translations given in two different orthographies. The top translation uses the Jamaican Language Unit (JLU) orthography and the bottom is in an English-approximate orthography:
Instructions of Ptahhotep, P. Prisse 15.6-15.89 If you take to wife a Spn.t* Who is joyful and known by her town If she is fickle and likes the moment Do not reject her, let her eat Joyfulness brings happiness (Lichtheim Translation)10
Ef yu tek a waif wid a tik badi uu aat api an ar tong piipl dem ehn nuo ar Shi a piki-piki, bot api fi ar taim Duohn dash ar we, mek ar nyam fram yu! Di api aat uman shi bring out di kaam waata
If you tek a wife wid a tick baaddy Oo art ‘appy an ‘ar town people en know ar She ah picky-picky but ‘appy fe ‘ar time Don’ dash ‘ar ‘way, make ‘ar nyam fram yuh De appy art ooman she bring out di calm water
~Undoing the Hottentoting of “the Queen of Punt” A Jamaican Afronography on the Kemetiu Depiction of Ati of Punt Tristan Samuels Journal of Black Studies
____________________
* [Spnt] a measure of beer
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back in 1967, Eva Danelius and Heinz Steinitz wrote the paper 'The Fishes and Other Aquatic Animals on the Punt-Reliefs at Deir el-Baḥri' in which they consulted ichthyologists confirming that not only are the marine fish depicted found in the Red Sea but the freshwater fish are native to Nile tributaries found in East Africa.
So why is there still debate about Punt's location??
there is debate because that is a lot of territory, various countries by the Red Sea and Nile tributaries
This new article purports to refine the region by certain baboon types but still doesn't refine the area that much:
quote: wo New Kingdom specimens of P. hamadryas were sourced to a region that encompasses much of present-day Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Djibouti, and portions of Somalia and Yemen. This result is a testament to the tremendous reach of Egyptian seafaring during the 2nd millennium BC. It also corroborates the balance of scholarly conjecture on the location of Punt.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Wow man. When I was much younger and believed there was an ancient Azania I seriously asked Kenyan friends about the sea creatures depicted in Punt.
Haha
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually the baboon represents the god Aani the netjer of balance who is a companion of Tehuti.
What's more is that back in 1967, Eva Danelius and Heinz Steinitz wrote the paper 'The Fishes and Other Aquatic Animals on the Punt-Reliefs at Deir el-Baḥri' in which they consulted ichthyologists confirming that not only are the marine fish depicted found in the Red Sea but the freshwater fish are native to Nile tributaries found in East Africa.
So why is there still debate about Punt's location??
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: there is debate because that is a lot of territory, various countries by the Red Sea and Nile tributaries.
No. There is only ONE region that is both coastal to the Red Sea and has Nile Tributaries and that is the Ethio-Eritrean region which was once one country of Ethiopia now divided into two-- Ethiopia and Eritrea.
quote:This new article purports to refine the region by certain baboon types but still doesn't refine the area that much:
quote: wo New Kingdom specimens of P. hamadryas were sourced to a region that encompasses much of present-day Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Djibouti, and portions of Somalia and Yemen. This result is a testament to the tremendous reach of Egyptian seafaring during the 2nd millennium BC. It also corroborates the balance of scholarly conjecture on the location of Punt.
Yes but I'm making assessments not just on baboon species but all the other fauna I mentioned including riverine fish not to mention the flora.
By the way, I find it funny how some of these experts who make an Arabian argument do so by claiming [African] animal species who live on both sides of the Bab-el-Mandeb but don't mention the [black/African] humans who do the same.
Yet they like to focus on the style of huts.
However the ones depicted in Egyptian murals of Punt were on stilts as they were built on river floodplains, which Yemen does not have.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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A lot of the images on Wikipedia for the Hatsheput expedition have multiple versions with the true colors and another color corrected version.
before we even get to editing photos after taking them in the above youtube videos, it shows how lighting can effect the color of photos and also how settings on the camera can effect the color of photos. This is before you even download it to a photo editor program and make adjustments. So there are three variables right there: 1) lighting 2) camera setting controls 3) photo editing programs
So even without out modern digital editing, older non-digital photos can vary greatly according to lighting and the camera settings
But aside from that that a looking at the above photos from the temple of Hatsheput
when you look at these two photos they are framed exactly the same so that means it could it's probably not two separate photos made by different photos So if we go to the second photo, the one that is not washed out looking and has the intense blue in it, the intensity of that blue paint is not so believable that it could stay that intense for a couple of thousands years
Derivative works of this file: Hatshepsut temple4 b.jpg
_______________________________________^
that goes to the "b" version, you can see the "b" in the file name
So the one that looks like a better photo with the more intense color is the color corrected one. I suspect it was done on a photo editor by increased contrast and heavier color saturation controls.
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If these are the men of Punt the skirt has these two pieces of cloth hanging down the center. I wonder if that is anywhere else in Egyptian art. It has to be tow, not one
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Relief depicting Queen Hatshepsut, dressing as a Pharaoh and offering incense to Min, god of fertility. Detail of a wall carving from the Red Chapel of Hatshepsut, Karnak Open Air Museum.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
I forgot to mention that the Hamadrayas baboon also called the 'white baboon' was the likely totem of the god Aani who is nicknamed 'Hedj-wer' or 'Great White'.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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In the thread about Björn Landstöms book Ships of the Pharaohs also the distribution of Secretary birds are discussed as hinting to where Punt was located.
quote: Science in Poland reports that depictions of secretary birds have been identified in the Temple of Hatshepsut at Deir el-Bahari by Filip Taterka of the Polish Academy of Sciences. There are two images of the bird of prey, also known as Sagittarius serpentarius, on the walls of the temple’s upper Portico of Punt, among other images of ebony, gold, resins, ivory, leopards and leopard skins, cheetahs, and giraffes given to the Egyptians by the people of Punt.
quote: The new information offers a clue to where the so-called “Land of Punt” may have been located. In the past, scholars have suggested the mysterious place was in Africa or the Arabian Peninsula, but the secretary bird lives only in Africa.
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