posted
some people say some how that hijaab is only a tradtion of some arabian culutue, and it not fard....and so on...
here is sumthing from amr khaled stuff [on eposide 22]
It also has the values of Hijab; Allah says what can be translated as, "And say to the female believers to cast down their be holdings, and preserve their private parts, and not display their adornment except such as is outward, and let them fix (Literally: strike) closely their veils over their bosoms, and not display their adornment except to their husbands, or " (TMQ, 24:31).
quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: "And say to the female believers to cast down their be holdings, and preserve their private parts, and not display their adornment except such as is outward, and let them fix (Literally: strike) closely their veils over their bosoms, and not display their adornment except to their husbands, or " (TMQ, 24:31).
bos·om ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bzm, bzm) n.
The chest of a human: He held the sleepy child to his bosom. A woman's breast or breasts. ___________
How or where does it say a woman should cover her head? Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ok maybe this is a really stupid question but I am still new to this stuff. Can you be muslim and just follow the qur'an?
Posts: 516 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: some people say some how that hijaab is only a tradtion of some arabian culutue, and it not fard....and so on...
here is sumthing from amr khaled stuff [on eposide 22]
It also has the values of Hijab; Allah says what can be translated as, "And say to the female believers to cast down their be holdings, and preserve their private parts, and not display their adornment except such as is outward, and let them fix (Literally: strike) closely their veils over their bosoms, and not display their adornment except to their husbands, or " (TMQ, 24:31).
Amr Khalid is a bean counter. Not a man of theological knowledge.
It might just be me, but as a Lutheran we don't have Televangelists, our Pasters have Bachelors and more often masters or Phds in theology, not accounting.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by minry80: Ok maybe this is a really stupid question but I am still new to this stuff. Can you be muslim and just follow the qur'an?
Hi minry80!
There are some people who do say that this is possible as they say that the Qur'an is the word of Allah, we don't need anything else, and as there are some Hadith that have been misquoted or fabricated they say that none of them can be trusted. {The Hadith are records of what the Prophet said, did, and tacitly agreed to (i.e. they are things people did that he never forbade).}
However, if they actually read the Qur'an properly they would see that on many occasions Allah says in the Qur'an that Muslims should follow what is in the Qur'an and also what Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) also told us. So Muslims should also follow the authentic Hadith that are related from the Prophet too.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: However, if they actually read the Qur'an properly they would see that on many occasions Allah says in the Qur'an that Muslims should follow what is in the Qur'an and also what Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) also told us.
Those who support the opinion that the Qur'an should be the only source of guidance also believe that the the Qur'an "claims legitimacy for itself and within itself".
I'm sorry to disagree with you, Dalia (hi, btw. - don't think we've met ). Snoozin, I would have expected you to know better, by now
The knowledge of deen (way of life) of Islam cannot be gained by reading books alone - even if, it is the Holy Quraan. That is why, in His wisdom, Allah s.w.t. sent not only the Prophet s.a.w. but also 124,000 of his companions to show us how to interpret the Quraan. Just because a person can speak (read, understand) arabic doesn't mean they can "understand" and "interpret" the Quraan (as many on this board do and thus fall into major mistakes). In Virtues of the Quraan, one of the books I suggested to you, the 14 fields of knowledge that one must be competent in in-order to even begin to interpret the Quraan are mentioned briefly.
While the sahaba r.a. were alive the mistake of mis-interpreting the Quraan and taking it's apparent meanining (out of context) arose when some people interpreted the verse which mentions not to put yourself into harms way by your own hands. The newcomers applied it to those who, in a battle, charged into the thick of battle heedless of the consequences. The older sahaba r.a. mentioned that this verse was revealed about them when they wanted to stay at home and excuse themselves of not going out and stiving in the path of Allah s.w.t. - staying home is what is meant by putting yourself into harms way by your own hands !
Thus to interpret passages of the Quraan - we must look at how the prophet s.a.w. and his companions r.a. interpreted and applied them practically.
Was salaam,
Posts: 97 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
Just browsing the "Free-Minds" site - I am hit by the impression that it is yet another site re-inventing Islam, remoulding, and reshaping it "to suit the present day environment."
Either we accept Islam as the final message and the prophet s.a.w. as the final messenger and take is a deen (way of life) which Allah s.w.t. perfected and completed (as is stated in the Quraan) - or discard it (or parts thereof), and try to make our own religion based our own understandings of what is applicable and pertinent in the modern day and go down the road of all the other "religions" that are around today.
Posts: 97 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Pendarth: I'm sorry to disagree with you, Dalia (hi, btw. - don't think we've met ).
Hi Pendarth,
could you clarify what exactly you disagree on? Although I can relate to some of the things written in the link I posted it does not necessarily reflect my personal opinion, if that's what you mean ...
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful.
[Surah al-Ahzaab 33:59]
-------------------- -- here... [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0955020700/qid%3D1133898517/026-7853042-0414807= Recommended...![/url] Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
you should add for non-Arabic speakers that this is not an exact translation but an interpretation of the verse.
I assume you know very well that "juyubihunna" is not translated as "the whole body" but rather a specific part of it, namely the chest area.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
What is your Opinion on Ibn Abbas? I heard that Ibn Abbas was blessed, in particular, with the knowledge and ability to say the meaning of the Quran? would you agree.... so therefore he is the best person to know what an ayah may mean..... if you read on you will find out that in the Quran it does actually say that women are suppose to cover, so therefore it is a commandment from God. I dont know if you wear it ir not, neither do you need to say, but you are defiently opposing hijaab, if you do get any enlightment from the following, the website is below, and also help others to understand the importance of hijaab, as i think this is one thing many muslim women try go around. Refering to Amr Khaled again, in his Seerha during ramadhan, he mentioned how women played an important role in establishing Islam. Even to this day, i do beleive women will play an important role in the revival of islam. so it important for them to be educated and not fooled.
(59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their Jalabib over their bodies. That will be better that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) (60. If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah stop not, We shall certainly let you overpower them, then they will not be able to stay in it as your neighbors but a little while.) (61. Accursed, they shall be seized wherever found, and killed with a (terrible) slaughter.) (62. That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old, and you will not find any change in the way of Allah.)
========================= The Command of Hijab
Here Allah tells His Messenger to command the believing women -- especially his wives and daughters, because of their position of honor -- to draw their Jilbabs over their bodies, so that they will be distinct in their appearance from the women of the Jahiliyyah and from slave women. The Jilbab is a Rida', worn over the Khimar. This was the view of Ibn Mas`ud, `Ubaydah, Qatadah, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ibrahim An-Nakha`i, `Ata' Al-Khurasani and others. It is like the Izar used today. Al-Jawhari said: "The Jilbab is the outer wrapper.
`Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing. Muhammad bin Sirin said, "I asked `Ubaydah As-Salmani about the Ayah:
[يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ]
(to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.) He covered his face and head, with just his left eye showing.''
[ذلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ]
(That will be better that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. ) means, if they do that, it will be known that they are free, and that they are not servants or whores.
[وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً]
(And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) means, with regard to what happened previously during the days of Jahiliyyah, when they did not have any knowledge about this.
My objection regarding your post was that the interpretation of the verse, which is derived from ahadith, is slipped in to make it look like it's a direct translation.
My personal opinion - in short - is that Muslim women (and men) are asked to dress modestly, nothing more. I also think women should be free to decide how they interpret the verse and act accordingly. Nobody should be forced to cover or not to cover.
Regarding Amr Khaled - I wish he would put as much emphasis on the first part of the aya which asks men to lower their gaze. From what I observe in Egypt the problem is not the covering or non-covering of women but the overall behaviour of the men!
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dalia: I also think women should be free to decide how they interpret the verse and act accordingly. Nobody should be forced to cover or not to cover.
Hi
Like how some women do adhere to their religion and wear hijaab, some men too do adhere and lower their gaze.. likewise, how some men disrespect their deen and do not lower gaze, as like women who also disrespect their deen and disregard hijaab.
I quoted the above, cos i'm in 101% disagreement, that i do think that mere muslim who only spend a few hours, if not minutes, of their day studying their religion, are given the authority to interept ayas/issues them selves, is ludicurous!
Its total disrespect to the ulema who give the effort of their whole life to the teaching and understanding of islam, to have some women coming from the blue and saying this means that.
anyhow, i think the reference to Ibn Abbas, [ maybe you dont know who he is, he is a companion of SAWS, his uncles too] is sufficent and strong enough to back the hijaab.
If you would like more info about the companions are how hadiths are compiled or anything let me know. I dont think you understood the importance of the tafsir above?
unless ofcourse u are sumthing else other than the ahlus-sunnah-jama? that will just be another matter altogether. but generally i find egyptian [i think u are] straight in religion, and not grouping themselves with these or that kinda innovation. elhamduilah.
quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: likewise, how some men disrespect their deen and do not lower gaze, as like women who also disrespect their deen and disregard hijaab.
First of all I think you know as well as me that there are way more men not lowering their gaze then women not dressing properly! Strangely enough there are no campaigns addressing men and asking them to lower their gaze, there are no "lower your gaze!"-campaigns or websites dedicated to remind men to lower their gaze and I don't see Mr Amr Khaled constantly dwelling on this subject either. They are all focussing on the hijab instead ... strange!
quote:I quoted the above, cos i'm in 101% disagreement, that i do think that mere muslim who only spend a few hours, if not minutes, of their day studying their religion, are given the authority to interept ayas/issues them selves, is ludicurous!
I find the suggestion that any woman who choses not to wear hijab is "disrespecting her deen" quite annoying. It's a severe accusation suggesting that those women are a) not knowledgeable enough or b) disrespectful by choice. I know lots of Muslim women who take their religion extremely seriously and are very knowledgeable and chose not to cover because they don't see it as a requirement.
You will always have the case of several people studying exactly the same sources, yet arriving at different conclusions. I think it's very dangerous if certain people claim they are the only ones who are guided and on the right path.
quote: Its total disrespect to the ulema who give the effort of their whole life to the teaching and understanding of islam, to have some women coming from the blue and saying this means that.
I always understood that Islam takes pride in the fact that everyone is asked to educate themselves, that there are no priests telling people what to think. But what you are saying here is that people are not supposed to read and think for themselves but should depend on others for guidance.
So if you have to stand up for your actions and decisions on the day of judgement you will say "Someone else who has studied all his life did the thinking and deciding for me, so I didn't regard it as necessary to educate myself and take decisions based on my own knowledge and consciousness."???
quote:anyhow, i think the reference to Ibn Abbas, [ maybe you dont know who he is, he is a companion of SAWS, his uncles too] is sufficent and strong enough to back the hijaab.
That's fine with me. My point of view is different, but as I said, everyone should be entitled to their own conclusions ...
quote: but generally i find egyptian [i think u are] straight in religion, and not grouping themselves with these or that kinda innovation.
I'm not sure I understand this statement, but FYI, I'm not Egyptian.
Oh, and I think you should remove your Kalashnikow when talking to a lady. Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
Ok I think you are typing without thinking.....I will point out a few things, and inshaAllah it will make it clear to you what you are really saying...
1) Our prophets SAW has taught and concluded Islam for us....If you want to make up your own conclusion, then you might of well just make up ur own religion
quote: My point of view is different, but as I said, everyone should be entitled to their own conclusions ...
2) Your willing to follow your own conclusion/knowlege/desire, over a great companion of our beloved Prophet SAW? Or is that you concluded the following: `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing.
to mean..." dont wear hijaab"
I dont mean to be rude but it makes you wonder why the muslims are in the state they are today...
quote: I know lots of Muslim women who take their religion extremely seriously and are very knowledgeable and chose not to cover because they don't see it as a requirement
Knowlegable? from where? Obviouly not from the Prophet SAW or his companion.
I know it almost mandotary in ES that every thread is treating like an argument or sumthing...but here I am only trying to emphasis a point [obligation of hijaab], and [b] help [b] you, so dont see it as an attack.
Infact through out this thread, subhanaAllah, those ayah and tafsir and hadith I never seen before, and they just came up as I was researching at the time of writing. I did once think that hijaab was obligatory, then when I heard the point of views from others, I thought it was only culture of arabia [but was doubtful], and now, subhanAllah, I realise that Hijaab is even more so obligotory, and those evidence above, I will use for sure in the future, becuase they are as clear as daylight, that hijaab is so compulsory.
Of course you might think otherwise, which ir your right, and i'm willing to talk/debate as much needed, or as long as you are willing, to spread this sunnah
ma salama Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: Ok I think you are typing without thinking....
Certainly not! And I think there is no need to insult me and my intelligence just because I don't share your opinion.
I'm familiar with most of your arguments because I've been through this debate before. Despite what you might think I don't enjoy argueing for the sake of argument ... I know that people like you think obeying rules without questioning is a sign of great faith; I'm sorry, but I can't relate to this attitude at all, thus I don't think it makes sense to continue this debate.
quote: Infact through out this thread, subhanaAllah, those ayah and tafsir and hadith I never seen before, and they just came up as I was researching at the time of writing.
Just a comment regarding the ahadith you posted (and I think you're well aware of the fact that they don't only speak about covering the hair but the whole face): If you do your research on the internet it's very easy to get the impression that the matter is very clear. Those who are in favour of covering or completely covering women put way more energy into bringing their point across and trying to convince others than those who adopt a more "liberal" stance towards the subject. So it's very easy to google a bit and come up with several ahadith, sometimes taken out of context, that might appear "clear" at first sight ...
quote: I dont mean to be rude but it makes you wonder why the muslims are in the state they are today...
I don't mean to be rude either but I think part of the problem might be that many Muslims waste a lot of their time debating over a piece of fabric or whether it's haram or halal to pluck your eyebrows or not, sleep on your stomach or not etc. pp. instead of focussing on the things that really matter.
Take yourself, for example. You started this thread about the hijab. Why didn't you start a thread on the importance of prayer or any other thing that's fundamental in Islam? Or as I mentioned before why didn't you start a thread on the importance of lowering your gaze, asking Muslim men to behave modestly? I still feel men's overall behaviour in some Muslim countries is a far bigger problem for the overall morality of society than women's behaviour or dress.
There are so many issues to tackle, yet you chose to start a topic trying to convince women to cover their head. I'd really be interested in knowing why you personally think this issue is more important than so many others ...
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sure I would be more than happy to explain why I chose this.
But firslt, I want to point out that you completely missed out the main point of this thread, and rather replied to the petty points. also that any points/matters in Islaam is not a waste of time wethere it how you sleep, or how you eat, or how you pray.
**It would be interesting for me, to know how you came to the conclusion that hijaab is not obliged in deen.** Was this based on your complete mind? I mean not based on anything, not even a weak hadith???
It alright, if you dont personally wear it, but it is important for you and the like fo you to know that it is obliged.
Now, why I picked this, I have read in thie forum [i think], and i have heard numerous times, that people say hijaab is not obligotroy, This is something that was in my mind, they argue that it not written in the quran to wear it. Infact I asked my friends if it was true that it doesnt say that to cover your hair, rather it says to cover urself. It wasnt only a few days ago, that I was browsing somewhere, and I saw the above how it was written, and it made me think that those people who say "it not written in the quran", that ayah is a very good one t present to them, and see what they say.
So it was very interesting to know what you think, and honestly [being judgemental here], there are only two types of women here, I think you represent half of how women think here quite well. If not, unforntunaly, most common muslimah around the globe.
Women make a certain difference in any civilisation, as I said before, no wonder why we in the state we are as muslim, among many other things:)
wa salam
-------------------- -- here... [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0955020700/qid%3D1133898517/026-7853042-0414807= Recommended...![/url] Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
...The Prophet passed his hands over my head and blessed me. Then he performed ablution and I drank the remaining water, and standing behind him. A saw the SEAL in between his shoulders."
...I stood behind him and saw the SEAL OF PROPHETHOOD between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.)
FuNnY IS'NT iT LOL BLA BLA BLA Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2
Narrated 'Aisha: (...) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, ...
quote:Originally posted by sonomod: Not a man of theological knowledge.
It might just be me, but as a Lutheran we don't have Televangelists, our Pasters have Bachelors and more often masters or Phds in theology, not accounting. [/QB]
I missed you post there. Are you german? I done a search to what a Luthern is, and it is a place in German? I didnt really understand what you said there
where did Dalia disappear off to Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: Now, why I picked this, I have read in thie forum [i think], and i have heard numerous times, that people say hijaab is not obligotroy,
You've also read in this forum that harrassment of women is a big problem in Egypt, yet you chose not to address this but address the covering of women instead.
I think that's a bit weird.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
Scholars have always been discussing what, how and why to cover. Interestingly enough, the discussion used to be way more diverse and open-minded in the past then it is now.
These are footnotes from a text in Khaled Abou el Fadl's "Speaking in Gods Name Islamic Law, Authority and Women" which prove that point.
106 The term 'awrah is defined by referring to those parts of the body that must be covered during prayer and that are prohibited from being seen. Ibn Muflih, al-Mubdi ; 1:359. Linguistically, it refers to something faulty (nuqsān or 'ayb) or repulsive (mustaqbah or qubh). Al-Bahūtī, Kashshāf al-Qinā', 1:312; Ibn Nujaym, al-Bahr al-Rā'iq, 1:467. Generally, jurists provide a definition of the 'awrah when addressing how a Muslim should dress when making obligatory prayers (salāt). Interestingly, the earliest traditions on the subject do not reflect a specific discussion on `awrah. Rather they address different dress styles and, at least in the case of women, draw distinctions between certain classes of women. For instance, early works relate traditions of the Prophet praying while wrapped in a single thawb or garment that draped over his shoulders and covered his front and back (layukhālifu bayna tarafayhi 'alā 'Abd al-Razzāq, al-Musannaf, 1:350, 353. See also, Ibn Abi Shayba, al-Kitāb al-Musannaf, 1:275-277.
Others suggest that it is better to pray with two garments, namely one wrapped around the waist (izār) and another draped around the shoulders (ridā'). Al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, 1:349, 353-354, 356; Ibn Abi Shayba, al-Kitāb al-Musannaf, 1:2'75-276. See also, al-Ramlī, Nihāyat al-Muhtāj (1992), 2:13; al-Bahūtī, Kashshāf al-Qinā', 1:316-317. However, the conflict over men's proper attire arises when one's garment is too small. One set of traditions holds that if a man's garment is large enough, he should drape it over himself (mutawashshih), but if it is small, he should pray with the garment wrapped around his waist (muttazir or yukhālifu bayna tarafayhi). Al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, 1:352, 353; Ibn Abi Shayba, Kitāb al-Musannaf, 1:275, 276, 277. See also, al-Qarāfī, al-Dhakhīrah, 2:112; Ibn Muflih, al-Mubdi,` 1:64. Others argued that he can pray with a single garment as long as part of it can be draped over his shoulder. Al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, 1:353; Ibn Abi Shayba, Kitāb al-Musannaf, 1:278. See also, al-Bahūtī, Kashshāf al-Qinaā', 1:318; Muhammad Amin Ibn 'Abidīn, Hāshiyat Radd al-Muhtār, (1966), 1:404.
According to the Companion Ibn Mas'ūd, if one cannot find sufficient material, then it is permissible to pray with only one garment. However if sufficient material is available, then he should pray with two. However, others such as `Umar b. al-Khattāb disagreed> and held that only one garment wrapped around the waist was sufficient for prayers. Al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, 1:356; Ibn Abi Shayba, Kitāb al-Musannaf, 1:278-279. See also, Ibn Rushd, Bidāyat al-Mujtahid. 1:159.
Incidentally, one report suggests that wearing a garment around the waist was endorsed partly to distinguish the Muslims from the Jews. Al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, 1:352; Ibn Abi Shayba, Kitāb al-Musannaf, 1:278. Notably, the term 'awrah does not appear in this discussion. Likewise, it is not used in the early discussion on women's attire in prayer. The traditions instead address the kinds of clothing a woman must wear in prayer, and distinguishes between the appropriate attire for free and slave women. Specifically, al-San'ānī relates traditions on two issues. The first issue concerns what a free woman must wear when praying. Generally, the items for consideration are a khimār, jilbāb, dir` sābigh, and milhaf. al-San'ānī al-Musannaf, 3:128-129, 131, 135; Ibn Abi Shayba, al-Musannaf, 2:36-37. See also, al-Māwardī, al-Hāwī al-Kabīr, 2:169; Ibn Muflih, al-Mubdi', 1:366; al-Ramlī, Nihāyat al-Muhtāj (1992), 2:13-14; al-Bahūtī, Kashshāf al-Qinā', 1:318; Ibn Hazm, al-Muhallā 2:2:249-250.
The second issues concerns whether a slave woman must also wear a khimār for prayer? The khimār is generally a garment that covers a woman's head. Ibn Manzūr, Lisān al-'Arab, 4:257; Ibn Muflih, al-Mubdi`, 1:366; al-Bahūtī, Kashshāf al-Qinā', 1:318. The meaning of dir` sābigh generally suggests some type of loose-fitting garment that extends to one's feet. The relevant distinction is that a dir` does not necessarily cover a woman's head. Ibn Manzūr, Lisān al-'Arab, 8:81-82; Ibn Muflih, al-Mubdi`, 1:366; Lane, Arabic-English Lexicon, 1:871-872.
Jilbāb refers to a garment that is larger than a khimār and generally covers a woman's head and chest area, but may also cover her entire body. In some cases it is used as a synonym for khimār, and in others for an izār. Ibn Manzūr, Lisān al-'Arab, 1:272-273. And a milhaf is a blanket (dithār) or cover which is wrapped over other clothes. Ibn Manzūr, Lisān al-'Arab, 9:314. Al-San'ānī reports that the Prophet said that menstruating free women must wear a khimār, otherwise their prayer will not be accepted. Al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, 3:130, 131; Ibn Abi Shayba, Kitāb al-Musannaf, 2:39-40.
The reference to menstruation is generally regarded as a reference to adulthood or the age of majority. Al-Marghīnānī, al-Hidāya, 1:43. Women who are not adults are not necessarily subject to this requirement. Al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, 3:132. In another tradition, a woman is supposed to wear a khimār, a dir`, and an izār, although there is some countervailing traditions against this position. Ibn Muflih, al-Mubdi`, 1:366. Some traditions suggest that an acceptable dir` must be long and loose enough to cover the appearance of a woman's feet, although without a khimār, it is insufficient. Al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, 3:128; Ibn Abi Shayba, Kitāb al-Musannaf, 2:36.
One tradition relates that 'A'isha was seen wearing during prayer a garment around her waist (mu'tazirah), a dir`, and a thick khimār. Al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, p. 129. On the other hand, Umm Habībah, a wife of the Prophet, is reported to have worn a dir`, and an izār that was large enough to drape around her and reach the ground. Notably, she did not wear a khimār. Id. Yet another tradition relates that the Prophet's wives Maymūna and Umm Salamah would wear a khimār and a dir` sābigh Ibn Abi Shayba, Kitāb al-Musannaf, 2:36.
107 The issue of 'awrah is complex partly because it is extremely difficult to retrace and reclaim the historical process that produced the determinations as to 'awrah. The conventional wisdom maintains that early on, Muslim jurists held that what should be covered in prayer should be covered outside of prayer. This, however, is not entirely true. The dominant juristic schools of thought argued that the 'awrah of men is what is between the knee and navel. A man ought to cover what is between the knee and navel inside and outside of prayer.
A minority view, however, argued that the 'awrah of men is limited to the groin and buttocks only; the thighs are not 'awrah. The 'awrah of women was a more complex matter. As noted below, the majority argued that all of a woman's body except the hands and face is 'awrah. Abü Hanifa held that the feet are not 'awrah, and some argued that half the arm up to the elbow, or the full arm, is not a 'awrah. A minority view held that even the face and hands are 'awrah and therefore, must be covered as well. An early minority view held that the hair and calves are not 'awrah. In addition, some argued that women must cover their hair at prayer, but not outside of prayer. Importantly, the jurists disgreed on whether the covering of the 'awrah is a condition precedent for the validity of prayer. The majority held that covering the 'awrah is a fard (basic and necessary requirement) so that the failure to cover the 'awrah would invalidate a person's prayers. The minority view (mostly but not exclusively Mālikī jurists) held that covering the 'awrah is not a condition precedent for prayer - accordingly, this school argued that covering the 'awrah is among the sunan of prayer (the recommended acts in prayer), and the failure to cover the 'awrah would not void a person's prayers. A large number of Hanafi jurists argued that as long as three-fourth of the body is covered the prayer is valid. Interestingly, Mālik reportedly allowed people to pray naked ('urāh), if they were unable to procure dressing garments. However he suggested that such people should pray alone so as not to see each other's 'awrah, and remain standing throughout. However if they are praying in the dark of night (layl muzlim), they may pray in congregation with an imām leading them. Sahnūn b. Sa'īd, al-Mudawwana al-Kubrā (Beirut: Dār Sadr, n.d.), 1:95-96. See also, al-Qarāfī, al-Dhakhīrah, 2:106-107; Ibn Muflih, al-Mubdi ; 1:370-374. The Shi'i al-Tūsī adopts the same view and also allows them to pray in congregation during daylight hours, as long as they pray in only one line and in a sitting Position. al-Tūsī, al-Mabsūt, 1:87.
Al-Bahūtī goes so far as to say that even in this case, congregational prayer remains obligatory. Al-Bahūtī, Kashshāf al-Qinā', 1:324. See also, Ibn Hazm, al-Muhallā, 2:255-257. Being unclothed for prayers does not allow one to steal clothes out of necessity, according to al-Ramlī. Since one can pray naked, there is no necessity as in the case of stealing clothes to protect oneself from heat or freezing temperatures, or stealing food to prevent death by starvation. Al-Ramlī, Nihāyat al-Muhtāj (1992), 2:12. See also, al-Bahūtī, Kashshāf al-Qinā', 1:322-324, who addresses the various means by which those without sufficient clothes can pray. The overwhelming majority of jurists held that the 'awrah of a slave-girl, or even a female servant girl, is different. Some jurists argued that the 'awrah of such a woman is between the knee and navel - the same as a man. The other jurists held that the 'awrah of such a woman is from the beginning of the chest area to the knees and down to the elbows. Therefore, the majority agreed that a slave-girl or servant-girl may pray with her hair exposed.
A minority view argued that slave-girls should cover their hair in prayer, but do not have to do so outside of prayer. In short, it seems to me that the conventional wisdom is not exactly correct; there seems to be sufficient grounds for differentiating between the 'awrah in prayer and outside of prayer. Furthermore, as noted below, the 'awrah of slave-girls or servant-girls, inside and outside of prayer, raise serious questions about the basis for the historical juristic determinations regarding the 'awrah of women. See, on the law of `awrah: al-San'ānī, al-Musannaf, 3:128-136 (documents some of the early opinions). For Mālikī school, see: Ibn Rushd (II), Bidāyat al-Mujtahid, 1:156-158; Ibn Rushd (I), al-Muqaddimāt al-Mumahhidāt 1:183-185; Sahnūn, nl-Mudawwana (Dar Sadr), 1:94; al-Hattāb al-Ra'īnī, Mawāhib al-Jalīl 2:177-187; al-Qarāfī, al-Dhakhīrah, 2:101-105. For Shāfi'ī school, see: al-Shāfi'ī, al-Umm (Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, n.d.), 1:109; al-Ramlī, Nihāyat al-Muhtāj (1992), 2:7-8, 13; al-Māwardī, al-Hāwī al-Kabīr, 2:165-171. For Hanafī school, see Ibn Nujaym, al-Bahr al-Rā'iq, 1:467, 469-476; Ibn 'Abidīn, Hāshiyat Radd (1966), 1:405; al-Kāsānī, Badā'i' al-Sanā'i' ; pp. 543-546. For Hanbalī school, see Ibn Qudāmah, al-Mughnī (Dar Ihyā' al-Turāth al-'Arabī), 1:601; Ibn Muflih, al-Mubdi', 1:361-367; al-Bahūtī, Kashshāf al-Qinā', 1:315-317. For Ja 'farī school, see al-Tūsī, al-Mabsūt, 1:87-88.
109 Qur'ān 33:58-60. Reportedly these verses were revealed in response to several incidents in which the hypocrites of Medina harassed and molested Muslim women. Al-Rāzī, al-Tafsīr al-Kabīr (1999), 9:183-184; al-Tabarī, Tafsīr al-Tabarī 6:199-200; al-Qurtubī, al-Jāmi' (1993), 14:157-158; Ibn Kathīr Mukhtasar Tafsīr Ibn Kathīr, 3:114-115.
123 Some of the late jurists argued that if a slave-girl will cause a fitnah she must cover her breasts or hair. Al-Hattāb relates that although a slave woman's 'awrah is the same as a man's, some have said that it is reprehensible for someone who is not her owner to view what is under her garments, or to view her breasts, chest, or whatever else "leads to fitnah" (wa mä yad'ū al-fitnah minhā). Consequently, despite having the same 'awrah as men, it is preferred that she bare her head but cover her body. Al-Hattāb Mawāhib al-Jalīl, 2:180, 184. See also, al-Qarāfī, al-Dhakhirah, 2:103-104. Al-Bahūt relates views suggesting that as a matter of caution (ihtiyät), it is preferrable that the slave-girl cover herself in the Same fashion as an adult free woman, including covering her head during prayer. Al-Bahūtī, Kashshāf al-Qinā', 1:316. Ibn 'Abidīn also argues that most of the scholars of the Hanafī school do not permit a slave woman to have her breasts, chest, or back exposed; however it is said that a slave woman's chest is part of her 'awrah only in prayer but not otherwise. Nevertheless, Ibn 'Abidīn finds this latter view unconvincing. Ibn 'Abidīn, Hūshiya Radd (1966), 1:405. See also, Ibn Nujaym, al-Bahr al-Rā'iq, 1:474; al-Marghīnāī, al-Hidāya, 1:44.
126 Reportedly, the early jurists Dāwūd b. 'Alī and Jarīr al-Tabarī the founder of a now extinct school of jurisprudence, held that the 'awrah of men and women, slave or otherwise, is the same. See al-Māwardī, al-Hāwī al-Kabīr, 2:167.
127 For instance, al-Rustāqī, Manhaj al-Tālibīn, 8:21, 26, argues that every place and time have their own iaws. He states that in some places it is acceptable for women to reveal their hair while in Oman it is considered ugly (qabīh). He concludes by stating that whatever Muslims see as ugly is, in fact, ugly. Al-Marghīnānī, al-Hidāya, 1:44, mentions that slave-girls were not required to wear the veil because they need to work and requiring the veil would cause hardship (daf 'an li al-haraj).
Al-Qarāfī relates a tradition in which `Umar b. al-Khattāb asks his son why he was silent about the fact that the latter's slave woman walked about wearing an izār like a free woman. Reportedly, `Umar then adds that if he were to see her, he would hit her for doing so. Al-Qarāfī explains `Umar's position was relevant only tu a very specific historical situation in Medina, in which crazed men would harass slave women but not Irre women. See al-Qarāfī, al-Dhakhīrah, 129 For the six points above see, al-Tabarī Jāmi' al-Bayān, 18:93-95, 22:33-34 (mentions a variety of early opinions including the up to the elbow and the beginning of cleavage area determinations; also mentions the distinction between free and slave girls; mentions the historical practice); al-Nasafī, Tafsīr al-Nasafī (Cairo: Dar Ihyā' al-Kutub al-Arabiyya, n.d.), 3:140, 313, (mentions 'ādah, jibillah, and hājah; women need to reveal their faces, hands, and feet by custom, nature, and need; mentions the distinction applicable to slavegirls; mentions the historical practice); al-Jassās, Ahkām, 3:409-410, 486, mentions that slave-girls do not have to cover their hair; mentions the historical practice); al-Kiyyā al-Harrāsī, ahkām al-Qur'ān (1974), 4:288, 354 (notes slave-girls do not have to cover their faces or hair); Ibn al-'Arabī', Ahkām al-Qur'ān (n.d.), 3:1368-78, 1586-87 (mentions a variety of details to adornments; discusses the rule as to slave-girls); al-Qurtubī, al-Jāmi'(1993), 12:152-153, 157; 14:156-157 (mentions that the verse was revealed to address the harassment of women, and to differentiate slave-girls from Muslim women; notes the opinion that held that the verse called for the covering of the bosom area); Ibn Kathīr, Mukhtasar Tafsīr Ibn Kathīr, 2:600; 3:114-115, (mentions determinations as to the bosom; also notes that free Muslim women must cover their faces); Abū Hayyān al-Andalusī, Tafsīr al-Bahr al-Muhīt, 6:412; 7:240-241 (mentions custom, nature, necessity; mentions the historical practice as to revealing the bosom; mentions the distinction as to slave-girls); al-Zamakhshari, al-Kashshāf, 3:60-62, 274 (mentions the historical practice, distinction as to slave-girls, the rules as to functionality and custom, mentions that covering ought not cause hardship); Ibn al-Jawzī, Zād al-Masīr fī 'Ilm al-Tafsīr, 5:377-378; 6:224 (mentions mashaqqah - hardship); al-Māwardī, al-Nukat wa al-'Uyūn, 4:90-93, 424-425, (notes the opinion that the purpose of revelation was to instruct women to cover their bosoms; mentions the differentiation as to slave-girls); al-Shinqītī, Adwā' al-Bayān, 6:192-203, 586-600 (mentions a variety of positions; mentions determinations as to revealing the arm up to the elbow and the view that the point is to cover the bosom; mentions the historical practice and differentiation as to slave-girls; author supports covering the face); Ibn Taymiyya, al-Tafsīr, 6:23, (notes that the law of veiling does not apply to slave-girls); Fakhr al-Dīn Muhammad al-Rāzī, al-Tafsīr al-Kabīr (a.k.a Mafātīh al-Ghayb), 23:176-179; 25:198-199, (mentions al-'ādah al-jāriyah (the habitual custom) and functionality as the focal issues in determining what women ought to cover; mentions the historical practice and the distinction as to slave-girls); Ibn 'Atiyya, al-Muharrar al-Wajīz, 4:178, 399 (mentions the determinations as to the bosom and arm up to the elbow; mentions the rule of functionality and custom; mentions the historical practice and the distinction as to slave-girls); al-Suyūtī, al-Durr al-Manthūr, 5:45-46, 239-241 (mentions the determinations as to the arm up to the elbow and the bosom; notes the discussion regarding the beginning of the cleavage area; mentions the historical practice and the distinction as to slave-girls); al-Burūsī, Tanwīr al-Adhhān, 3:57-59, 254-255, (mentions the determinations as to the arm up to the elbow and the bosom; mentions the historical practice and distinction as to slave-girls); Abū Hafs `Umar b. 'Alī Ibn 'Adil al-Dimashqī al-Lubāb fī 'Ulūm al-Kitāb 14:355-358; 15:588-590 (mentions that according to some reports the verse was revealed to vindicate 'Alī's family.
Also mentions that other reports contend that hypocrites of Medina would solicit women at night. Girls who practiced prostitution would respond to their solicitation. The verse was revealed partly to end this practice. Mentions the rule of practice and custom (mā u'tīda kashfuh), and functionality and rule of necessity; mentions the distinction as to slave-girls); al-Alūsī, Rūh al-Ma'ānī (1985), 18:140-142; 22:89, (mentions the issue of functionality and that slave-girls lead an active economic life; mentions custom, habit, and nature; mentions the historical practice); al-Sāwī, Hāshiyat al-'Allāmah, 3:136-137, 288-289 (mentions various positions).
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: Are you going to just critise why I picked this subject, rather than actually talk about it?
Yes, I'll keep criticizing your choice of subject because you're a man, so I think you should focus on the behaviour of your own gender first, rather than trying to focus on what you percieve as a wrongdoing on the part of women.
I don't see any social problems arising from women not covering their hair, yet I do see many problems created by men's behaviour, so I think I raised a very valid point.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here are some extracts from your post, which was kinda interesting.....
quote:
A minority view, however, argued that the 'awrah of men is limited to the groin and buttocks only; the thighs are not 'awrah. The 'awrah of women was a more complex matter. As noted below, the majority argued that all of a woman's body except the hands and face is 'awrah. Abü Hanifa held that the feet are not 'awrah, and some argued that half the arm up to the elbow, or the full arm, is not a 'awrah.A minority view held that even the face and hands are 'awrah and therefore, must be covered as well. An early minority view held that the hair and calves are not 'awrah. In addition, some argued that women must cover their hair at prayer, but not outside of prayer. Importantly, the jurists disgreed
Your conclusion is obviusly an early minority, you do need to update urself.....
quote:
Qur'ān 33:58-60. Reportedly these verses were revealed in response to several incidents in which the hypocrites of Medina harassed and molested Muslim women. Al-Rāzī, al-Tafsīr al-Kabīr (1999), 9:183-184; al-Tabarī, Tafsīr al-Tabarī 6:199-200; al-Qurtubī, al-Jāmi' (1993), 14:157-158; Ibn Kathīr Mukhtasar Tafsīr Ibn Kathīr, 3:114-115.
wow, you find it too, ayah number 33:58-60.... i gave u the tafsir of this above.... [see the question on the post above too, it relates to this]
quote:
Some of the late jurists argued that if a slave-girl will cause a fitnah she must cover her breasts or hair. Al-Hattāb relates that although a slave woman's 'awrah is the same as a man's, some have said that it is reprehensible
Al-Marghīnānī, al-Hidāya, 1:44, mentions that slave-girls were not required to wear the veil because they need to work and requiring the veil would cause hardship (daf 'an li al-haraj).
Are you a slave women,,,,?
Finally, I think maybe you posted all that because you had enough .... or maybe you angry or sumthing...
I dont think there any point in going any further becuase there is no way you can support your argument, and you just strenghed my views that hijaab is 100% fard. as i said before, it really is disrespect to God not to follow His commandment.... [yea and for men too, for whatever they dont follow].
hmm, anyone else with any other radical views Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
If all women where in abbiya... all in plain colored, only showing their faces.. and wearing very looose overalls...[not the modern version, of a hijaab, and tight shirt/trousers]... infact if we take it even further, to Ibn abbas definition.. of women only showing their one eye...
what then will those men have to "hoot" or "whistle" at? do u think the sight of one-eyed women society will get men's desires racing around?
-------------------- -- here... [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0955020700/qid%3D1133898517/026-7853042-0414807= Recommended...![/url] Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: A very valid point indeed....
do you think this "behaviour" of men will a)increase or b)decrease,
if more women covered their hair?
Hi Kamal,
My (and many other women's) personal experience in different countries shows that the more women are covered the worse the behaviour of the men.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: Finally, I think maybe you posted all that because you had enough .... or maybe you angry or sumthing...
As I said above, I posted this text not because I agree with everything written in there but to show you that there used to be way more diversity in the debate about covering or non-covering.
Besides, I doubt you even took a look at the links I posted.
quote:Originally posted by Kamal211: I dont think there any point in going any further becuase there is no way you can support your argument, and you just strenghed my views that hijaab is 100% fard.
I am not trying to convince you of my point of view, I wrote in one of my earlier posts that I think debates with people like you lead nowhere. I was simply showing that the matter is not as black and white as you make it out to be. Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dalia: I wrote in one of my earlier posts that I think debates with people like you lead nowhere. I was simply showing that the matter is not as black and white as you make it out to be. [/QB]
Of course it aint going to go anywhere. Cos the evidience I provided is un-debatable.... and actually, your post showed even more so that the matter is black and white.
I dont know you very well to say that u seeem a bit un-intelligent...or maybe your havein a stressful time at work Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I leave the judgement as to who is exposing limited intellectual abilities in this debate to the readers of this thread. Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
you said you should not obey only but quran, ok so let us see what quran said: "Say (i.e Mohamed) if you do love god then follow me so may god love you" "You have had in your prophet (Mohamed) an idol"
if we didn't follow sunnah , then please dalia tell me where in quran do we get to know how to pray and when just tell me the versus, or how to fast where is it in the quran.
I believe that we should follow the sunnah 'cause simply it shows what was meant in quran, as we have followed it in praying, fasting and many other things, then i believe that women should also follow it in hijab "because simply hijab is what those versus above meant". and if you don't believe in Mohamed's sunnah then why should you believe in the quran because the quran come through him, if you don't believe in him then why should you stick with the quran... I only wanna demonstrate what you are saying. I don't mean that you don't believe in'em .. I only want to show the meaning that lies beneath.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: you said you should not obey only but quran
If you read my posts carefully you will see that I did say no such thing.
My personal opinion is that ahadith are important in order to determine and clarify the circumstances of things written in the Qur'an. I'm getting the impression, though, that many Muslims are putting the ahadith above the Qur'an. There are so many fatwas that are solely based on ahadith, some of them even contradicting what's written in the book.
I also think there is a reason why some verses in the Qur'an are clear and others are not and that reason might be that human beings are supposed to think, learn, question and then decide according to their best knowledge and consciousness.
I think God speaks to us directly through our heart and we have to learn to listen. If people stick to fatwas word by word without examining their own heart and consciousness they ignore this fact and put their fate in the hands of others whom they deem more authorized to make moral decisions.
Again, that's my personal opinion, I hope it makes sense to you.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
yes you didn't said so.. I am sorry. but I believe that you believe so, do you ?
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
so ur not a muslim after all... that is a releif in some ways... i was getting shocked, to think that this is how muslim women think these days.....phew..
cos alot of the time u were just contradicting urself and wondering if u even knew wat u talking about, but it all makes sense now...
well, mashaAllah, u seem to know quite a bit about islam.... sometimes it seems you trying to give the wrong image about Islaam, by acting as a muslim, especually with that name "Dalia" [ I guess it an arabic name for christain and muslim]...
p.s. do happen to have any relations with Morgan and/or kafir4ever
quote:Originally posted by Dalia: I also think there is a reason why some verses in the Qur'an are clear and others are not and that reason might be that human beings are supposed to think, learn, question and then decide according to their best knowledge and consciousness. [/QB]
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic