posted
Headscarf ban is judged success as hostility fades From Adam Sage in Aubervilliers
FATHIMA stood outside her lycée chatting and joking with friends. She paused briefly to lift a long, beige scarf off her head and then walked into the playground — an excited teenager back in class after the two-month French summer holidays.
Yet a year ago here, at the Lycée Henri Wallon in Aubervilliers, north of Paris, the mood was very different.
France’s centre-Right Government had passed a law banning religious symbols from schools and girls such as Fathima were at the centre of a fierce national controversy.
The law applies to all visible symbols, including kippas, turbans and large Christian crosses. But no one ever had any doubt about its main target — the Muslim headscarf that was the focus of a long and bitter struggle between Islamic extremists and the secular state.
At the Lycée Henri Wallon, where Alma and Lila Levy were expelled for refusing to remove their scarves, the debate was heated. Most teachers backed the law on the ground, hoping that it would end a drift towards multiculturalism that was separating pupils along ethnic and religious lines.
But leaders of France’s five million Muslims denounced it as an attack on religious freedom and parents expressed fears that children would be driven out of school because of “a bit of cloth on their heads”.
Twelve months on, the row has subsided and the law is being hailed by the Government as a success that has stemmed the Islamic fundamentalist tide and brought calm to the nation’s lycées.
Fathima, who is 16, agrees. “In the end I really don’t think it was a bad law at all. I wear my voile until I get to the school gates and then I take it off. School is not a place for religion. It is a place where we are all French and we are all equal. After lessons, I put the scarf back on again. There’s no difficulty.”
Standing across the road in a light-green tunic and cream-coloured headscarf was Sarra, a tall, self-assured 16-year-old. Last year she took part in demonstrations against la loi sur le voile and had considered defying the authorities by refusing to remove hers.
Today her anger is subdued. “We had our rebellion and it didn’t work, so I’ll take my scarf off before I go into the lycée. It was difficult at first but I’ve learnt to accept it.”
In the year since the law was implemented 626 girls have arrived for lessons wearing a Muslim headscarf — compared with 1,465 over the previous 12 months and more than 5,000 at the start of the decade.
Of these, 496 agreed to remove them when summoned for a talk with the headteacher. A further 45 refused and were expelled — as were two Sikhs who said that they could not attend school without a turban. The other pupils left the state eduction system — some for correspondance courses, some for religious schools in France and some for schools abroad, including ten or so in Britain.
posted
'undercover' is Anti-Islam, anti-Muslim, anti-Egyptian spammer on ES ( check her profile, 62-70 spam posts a day ) who hates Muslims.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Kuala Lumpur - Malaysia's government has endorsed a university's ruling that requires non-Muslim women to wear headscarves on its campuses, a report said on Wednesday.
posted
Prohibition of the wearing of hijab (Muslim headscarves) in France is well known.
In the mid 1990's, religious freedom in France was restricted by a law which outlawed religious proselytizing by persons of all faiths.
The French Minister of Education strictly interpreted this law as prohibiting the wearing of the hijab.
This is a scarf that covers a woman's head, neck and throat. It is traditionally worn by teenage and adult Muslim women for protection, and to display modesty.
It is not simply an expression of religious affiliation, like a Christian cross or crucifix. It is considered an obligatory covering for devout Muslim women.
The Minister of Education ordered the expulsion from schools of all female students who wore the hijab.
The French government took no action against Roman Catholic students wearing a crucifix, Protestant students wearing a cross, Sikh male students wearing a turban, or Jewish male students wearing a yarmulke (skullcap).
Some of the students who were expelled from school because they wore the hijab successfully sued the French government and were reinstated.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: Non-Muslims 'must wear scarves'
Kuala Lumpur - Malaysia's government has endorsed a university's ruling that requires non-Muslim women to wear headscarves on its campuses, a report said on Wednesday.
I know it is two years old exiled. I just wanted to point out to living that it is unfair for Muslims to demand recognition and preferential treatment, without feeling any obligation to reciprocate.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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I know it is two years old exiled. I just wanted to point out to living that it is unfair for Muslims to demand for recognition and preferential treatment, without feeling any obligation to reciprocate.
Another fallacy believed by Undercover because women who do not meet the attire in Iran are:
1 - Approached by female police officers and female police officers only.
2- They are asked to abide and put on their head covering. If they do it then they are free to go as they please. And if they do not then they are taken to the Police station where charges are formally filed against them and a court date is given them.
I see that Undercover and TigerLilly scour the internet to feed their hate - It's Christmas time - i would think you two were complacent at such a time Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Oh don't be surprised, I am sure what they do is not what would Jesus do.
French Bigotry
A Muslim girl today won her battle to wear traditional "head-to-toe" dress in the classroom after the Court of Appeal ruled her school had acted unlawfully in barring her.
Shabina Begum, 15, accused the head teachers and governors of Denbigh High School, Luton, Beds, of denying her the "right to education and to manifest her religious beliefs".
Lord Justice Brooke, vice president of the civil division of the Court of Appeal, called on the Department of Education to give schools more guidance on how to comply with their obligations under the Human Rights Act.
He ruled that that her school had:
# Unlawfully excluded her
# Unlawfully denied her the right to manifest her religion
# Unlawfully denied her access to suitable and appropriate education.
The US justice department has filed a complaint on behalf of a Muslim girl who was twice sent home from school for wearing a headscarf.
The education authorities said the hijab breached the dress code of the school in Oklahoma.
But the justice department says it amounts to religious discrimination.
America has a long history of giving refuge to immigrants who "dress funny"
Unlike some places, like No Human Rights for Muslims in France.
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posted
I started this thread because of what you wrote in another thread:
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: France is not tolerant of Muslims. That's why as we see, nuns can wear a head scarf, and the French are not complaining, but the same story doesn't go for Muslim women wearing a head scarf.
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: They should no go to Islamic country on vacation. Why go there? So if something should be 'braking story', this fact should be braking story.
If French hate Muslims, French should not go to Islamic country on vacation. Simple as that.
quote:Originally posted by Undercover: One could use the very same argument with Muslims. If the Muslims don't want to become fully integrated French citizens - what are they doing in France? Let them go somewhere else. A Muslim girl recently took the Italian authorities to court because she was offended at so many crosses on display!
And what about Tunisia, Turkey? Do they hate Muslims too? It's pretty funny how an Islamic country like Tunisia or Turkey has a law banning headscarves while Europe can't have such a law. Funny how some condemn the ban of the headscarf in the name of "religious freedom," but when every woman is forced to wear the headscarf in other islamic countries, they don't complain at all. Funny thing how they scream about muslims being discriminated against yet the saudi goverment is one of biggest suporters and one of the harshest opprestors of christianity in the middle east that jails rapes and kills any christians that oppenly practice their faith.
quote:Originally posted by Undercover: Habib Bourguiba, the founder and first president of Tunisia, made the legendary statement to young Tunisian women after he became president in 1957 that "it is intolerable that girl pupils should go into school rigged out in a dishcloth!"
quote:Originally posted by Undercover: The Hijab in Pakistan and Norway
quote:Sanctioned by the holy text of the Quran, hijab, or any item of woman's clothing, especially that which cancels her beauty, is assumed to protect women from men's unpleasant advances in the public sphere, where she might be seen as a sexual object if she roams around without hijab. The real-life experiences of millions of Muslim women show that the hijab provides no protection against unpleasant sexual advances of men and that a variety of social consequences result when women in different cultures are made to wear hijab. The two different cultures that I am going to consider here are those of Pakistan and Norway...
In Pakistan the hijab is simply unable to protect women from being seen as sexual objects in public. Women with or without hijab, any kind of hijab, are stared at, followed and harassed by men on roads and streets and at bus stations, shopping malls, and other public places. This harassment of women in public places is known in Pakistan as "Eve-teasing." Women in Pakistan experience Eve-teasing wherever they go in the country, although there are variations from region to region, city to city, and even within regions and cities. For example, in the northwestern region, the conservative and supposedly most Islamic region of Pakistan, women without or with any kind of hijab are likely to be stared at by nearly ten out of every ten men on roads, streets, shopping malls, etc., while in such cities as Islamabad and Lahore women are likely to be stared at by, for example, four out of every ten men. Similarly, women in some regions are most likely to be followed by strange men almost from their doorsteps to their destinations and then back to their doorstep every time they leave their homes. Women in some other regions of the country might not be followed every time but often, occasionally, or at least sometimes when they go out in public places. When these women are in a good mood, they jokingly say that they've acquired a free escort or bodyguard. But in fact this is no joke. It scares women to death. If their father, brother, or husband comes to know about their "escort or bodyguard," the women must surely expect that limitations will be placed on their right to movement outside the home, or, even worse, that they will be the victims of honor killing...
When I came to Norway in 2002, the first cultural shock I got was that men in public places did not stare at women. I had observed and even experienced so much staring by men in Pakistan that I thought it was a universal reality. When I found that it was not so in Norway , I was upset for some time. I thought; "Am I so ugly that Norwegian men don't even give me a second look?" Soon I realized that men in Norway just don't stare at any women in public places. Imagine my feeling of excitement in my exposure to Norwegian society when I discovered that Eve-teasing is not a universal reality. This is one of the most cherished discoveries I have ever made whole my life...
In short, hijab is neither a universal instrument to protect women from men’s unwelcome sexual advances in public places, nor it is a universal mark of identity for a Muslim woman. It is certainly not an obligation. At best, it is an option. All those who respect human rights must condemn those who promote hijab as identity of or an obligation for a Muslim woman. Similarly, all those who seek to impose hijab on Muslim women need to be prevented from doing so by state intervention. The requirement of the hijab removes personal responsibility from men and choice from women.
It was shocking to note how men in Muslim countries can stalk women with impunity as is described in the practice of "Eve teasing" described in the article. Modesty is demanded of women, but men are allowed just about anything. In any case, when you look at the likes of Abu Hamza, Omar Bakri and Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, you wonder why it isn't the men who should have to put a sack over their heads!
posted
2004-OCT-22: France: The Associated Press reported that some school officials were expelling Muslim female students who wore printed bandannas in place of hijabs. "Several girls have been expelled from school this week for breaking the ban, including two yesterday." The Union of Islamic Organizations of France (UOIF) urged the girls to take their cases to court.
On 2003-DEC-08, a group of religious leaders from
the Roman Catholic Church, Protestant denominations and Eastern Orthodox Churches
in France sent a message to President Chirac, asking him to not enact a law banning the wearing of a hijab
in public schools and other public institutions.
They based their request on the 1995 law guaranteeing freedom of religion, and the historical neutral position that the state has taken on religion.
They argued that the principles of secularism should ensure freedom of speech and guarantee religious tolerance. Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I showed and I proved with above postings that you hate Muslims.
If you were religious and good Christian you would not do what are you doing.
You are spreading hate on this message board and your own Church would vomit on your hateful articles.
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posted
The hijab is not a religious obligation. Besides, the ban only applies to public schools, to avoid young girls to be forced to wear headscarves. Outside of public school, they can express their religion as they want. And please take note that lots of Muslims in France agree with this law, especially women, because the scarf is exploited by some fundamentalists who try to make the Muslim women who don't wear scarves to feel guilty.
France is a secular country and intends to remain so. It separated the church and government in 1905 after fierce clashes with the Catholic Church. Don't forget that this law was originally brought in by the French to prevent the Catholic church from regaining its grip on the country. This is not simply Christians against Muslims. Turkey, a Muslim country has already banned the wearing of the scarves in their public schools. France is only enforcing its laws to ensure the separation of church and state. Leave your religion at home when going to school practice it on Fridays, Sundays or not at all, but not in the school. School is for learning.
What is really interesting though is that everyone seems to be jumping all over France for considering this measure, yet no one is censuring any Arab country for not allowing women out in public without being covered up. The Taliban used to publicly whip women unless they were "properly attired." It seems that tolerance is a one-way street. They can institute extremely oppressive measures, but God forbid that any western country do likewise. Perhaps that is why in no small measure millions of Muslims have emigrated to the West, and why it has not been reciprocated by Westerners emigrating to Muslim countries.
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: Non-Muslims 'must wear scarves'
Kuala Lumpur - Malaysia's government has endorsed a university's ruling that requires non-Muslim women to wear headscarves on its campuses, a report said on Wednesday.
Why not cut and paste the entire article like you normally do Because this only pertains to IIUM formally known as:
International Islamic University Malaysia
This news is like 2 years old
This rule was part of the university's policy from the day it was opened, and non-Muslims are made aware of it before they are accepted in the university.
But they choose to go to that specific university, despite having to do Islamic studies as a major part of their graduation requirements, because the university has one of the best reputations in the country.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
France is struggling under a raising level of intolerance between their civilians. Of course France has a history in colonialisation, and there are many people originating from of the former colonies living there. These people were placed together in separated area's, and right that this are a sort of no-go-area's where even the police doesn't show up, because it's dangerous. This anarchistic free-states into a state became hotbeds of criminality. The people are poor, many of them are unemployed, and stigmatised. Just having an Arabic familyname is enough to limit your futurious prospects, and during the last year this has been causing major violent expressions of discord. It was almost a civilian war in these parts... So, YES, France has been separated church and state, but they didn't follow the right way in their integration-policy, as so many European countries are dealing with exactly the same problems... The state of mind by the immigrants, the high rate of maladjusted behaviour, the intolerance from both sides, the hatred preaching imams from one side against the hided hatred expressions from certain political parties, they are all working in the opposite way, they reinforce the contradistictions. An Arabic name and appearance are enough to shorten peoples future. It is this way in the whole of Western Europe...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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^^This is true – I am pleased to read a European admit the blatant racism and stigmatization that North Africans suffer in France. About 6 or 7 months ago I was in a debate with some member here and despite posting a report from The UN Special Rapporteur on racism in France I was told that such was nonsense and that the Rapporteur is biased.
Furthermore there was also a report conducted by a special investigator sponsored by the interior ministry which concluded the same. France unlike other Eurpoean nations has 6 or so million Muslims and so this situation needs to be resolved fairly.
Blaming the weak and the minority for injustices committed against French Citizens who are Muslims is definitely counter productive. There is incivility and there must be a reason why?!
France needs ‘affirmative action’ that allocates government jobs to Minorities, Muslim or not. This is just a start but to blame crime and poverty on the poor is ridiculous.
Legislation must also change to persecute to the extent of the law police officers who abuse minorities. Discrimination laws must also be exercised and not simply collect dust in law books.
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It is one of the basic laws of democracy to protect minorities, and in more and more countries right now, the opinion of the majority rules, even when it means that minorities are discriminated. The cause is, in my opinion, caused by a complicated mix; not enough capacity to overlook long term impact, not enough attention to integration, language skills, making both cultures known to each other, and certainly also misjudgement of the impact which you get inevitable, when you get large quantities foreigners of a lower social class. There is a much higher percentage fraud, swindle, and crime in this group, and when gouvernments mentioned this, their answer was to make it more difficult to enter. The result was that a kind of illegal circuit arised, with the aim to getting in people against payment of large sums of money, and a vague circuit which one lost controll over, because its illegal. There are very rich foreigners who still are trying to get people in, and that illegals are under their power and dominance for several years. When the ultimate aim has been reached; a second nationality, the one who has been under power and controll, wants to earn that money back, and gets in a new one by the same method as he/she came in. Just because of the illegality, they are becoming part of a criminal circuit, and are causing problems. Majority of the people is only seeing the problems, and blame the foreigners for that...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Look, no one should want church and state mixed. That is the only way to keep liberty and justice for all.
My family on my dads side came to America in the 1600's to escape religious persecution in France. There was a massacre of the Huguenots which my family was. Two brothers escaped but their dad and other brother were killed because they did not believe in Catholicism. We need seperation of church and state.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
In 1685 the former King Louis XIV stopped the Edict of Nantes, and protestants could choose: convert to catholicism or leave France. A small group left for America, and founded New Rochelle, near New Amsterdam, whuch later became New York. Majority of the French went to Germany, England and Holland. A lot of them were publishers, they had their own churces named "refugee", and had a big influence on the traditional societies, untill today. When my grandmother was young, speaking French was considered as higher class, and children learned French as a second language on the better elementary schools. Etiquette was French, and in spite of the fact that I am living in a catholic society, also there the French Hugeonots ( and later Napoleon Bonaparte)left their traces. It comes back in names, external looks, and language. The French are chauvistic, but always have been 'big' thinking,otherwise they wouldn't have been able to leave such a stamp on a society. This historical religious wars, and above that, the French Revolution: "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" French for "Liberty, equality, fraternity (brotherhood)",is the basis of the current European democracies. Unfortunatly right now there isn't much left from that noble principles...
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Something 'left' in you, because of that background, of_gold? Maybe a trace of sportive talent, because the French are having THE best training-methods of the world!
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Yes, I'm sure. I still have my French last name through all these years. Even though I'm half Italian I am more often told that I look French. I don't know much about the French or the culutre though.
Are you French?
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
No, but it's near by. Enough to mention the French influences from the past. When making a family pedigree, one forefather was killed in war in the French army, and from the other side they were Italians, with a splitting to Russia. Right now there are people with the same name in Turkey and it seems also in Egypt. I am looking Italian, defenitly not French. My father is looking Mediterrean and my mother South-East-European. ( Greec nose!) But the countries in Europe have been under influence of Romains, French, Spanish, so there probably will be so many foreign bloodstreams, its difficult to find them all. Birth-registration became official during the time of Napoleon, before there were only church-administrations. We never managed to get before that time.
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quote:Originally posted by Exiled: Blaming the weak and the minority for injustices committed against French Citizens who are Muslims is definitely counter productive. There is incivility and there must be a reason why?!
French minister says polygamy to blame for riots LOL By Martin Arnold in Paris Published: November 15 2005 20:30 | Last updated:
France’s employment minister on Tuesday fingered polygamy as one reason for the rioting in the country.
Gérard Larcher said multiple marriages among immigrants was one reason for the racial discrimination which ethnic minorities faced in the job market. Overly large polygamous families sometimes led to anti-social behaviour among youths who lacked a father figure, making employers wary of hiring ethnic minorities, he explained.
French riots
The minister, speaking to a group of foreign journalists as the government stepped up efforts to improve its image with the foreign media, said: “Since part of society displays this anti-social behaviour, it is not surprising that some of them have difficulties finding work ... Efforts must be made by both sides. If people are not employable, they will not be employed.”
The riots, and the government’s slow reaction to the violence, has led to widespread criticism that France’s ruling class is out of touch with the rest of the country. Mr Larcher’s comments could further fuel the debate and are likely to outrage Muslim and anti-racism groups in France.
They also come as the government considers tightening visa-granting rules and a possible clampdown on polygamous families already living in France.
Although polygamy is illegal in France, visas were granted freely to family members of immigrants until 1993, when visas were banned for more than one spouse. Many wives continued to enter illegally, however and a clampdown, if enforced, could affect families that entered the country before 1993.
Politicians estimate there are 10,000-20,000 polygamous families in France, most from North and sub-Saharan African countries such as Algeria, Mali and Senegal, where the practice is legal.
Polygamy is a taboo subject for most mainstream French politicians. Far-right groups, however, have seized on it to argue that immigrants abuse the French social security system by collecting state benefits for several wives. Financial TimesPosts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: It is one of the basic laws of democracy to protect minorities, and in more and more countries right now, the opinion of the majority rules, even when it means that minorities are discriminated. The cause is, in my opinion, caused by a complicated mix; not enough capacity to overlook long term impact, not enough attention to integration, language skills, making both cultures known to each other, and certainly also misjudgement of the impact which you get inevitable, when you get large quantities foreigners of a lower social class. There is a much higher percentage fraud, swindle, and crime in this group, and when gouvernments mentioned this, their answer was to make it more difficult to enter. The result was that a kind of illegal circuit arised, with the aim to getting in people against payment of large sums of money, and a vague circuit which one lost controll over, because its illegal. There are very rich foreigners who still are trying to get people in, and that illegals are under their power and dominance for several years. When the ultimate aim has been reached; a second nationality, the one who has been under power and controll, wants to earn that money back, and gets in a new one by the same method as he/she came in. Just because of the illegality, they are becoming part of a criminal circuit, and are causing problems. Majority of the people is only seeing the problems, and blame the foreigners for that...
I think the reason for such racism and discrimination is also attributed to the majority's original ethnicity. France is French, Germany is German, Portugal is Portuguese, and these are of course examples. So the mentality will always be “Us and them”. This also hinders integration and progress and ultimately it also hinders true justice.
In America it is not like that at all and if someone claims otherwise it would be for certain neighborhoods in cities but definitely not on a national scale because America is a melting pot. I mentioned this to put on record the difference in democratic western societies.
The French Muslims are going no where and they will remain in France for good and they will continue to increase in numbers. We are talking about roughly 10% of a population that are Muslims and Africans.
The solution is a hard one, a very hard one in fact, and it is for the older generation French to accept newer generation French people.
The only way to do this is to implement laws to protect newer generation French peoples' rights. When a landlord refuses to rent to a Muslim there must be a plausible way to file a complaint one that would be taken seriously and not merely dismissed.
The same with Jobs – it will be difficult but commercial and the public sector must allocate a percentage of their jobs to minorities. I know this is difficult because France is suffering from unemployment but the alternative will be increased incivility and increased segregation.
The issues you mentioned such as visa irregularities and fraud are minuscule. Let us focus on the big picture, the big problem and that is the French government’s insincerity when it comes to integrating the newer generation immigrants.
Mandating a law that requires Muslim women to take off the Hijab is a smack in the face to muslim immigrants and only furthers the divide. This law was something for French pride, French power, French Ego but also ultimately it is also about French hate as the new generation would look at it. And it really does not in the least make situation better for the entire country.
Anyone stating otherwise is indeed volatile and transgressing towards peoples' beliefs. They are also insensitive to the feelings of the minority. And not only that but their position contradicts the merits of a true secular and democratic nation. Advocating changing laws hundreds of years after the formation of constitution to suit their biases truly counters the integrity of harmonious society.
The laws should be tangible steps to facilitate the integration of new generation French to mainstream French society and the only way to do that is to offer them equal jobs, equal rights, equal opportunities, equal protection and most of all equal respect.
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posted
Okay, lets turn the subject.When I'm in Egypt, I take care of my clothes, I know some clothes I can wear in Europe are not appreciated in Egypt. When I visit a mosque, I cover my hair. Out of respect to the Egyptian culture. Nevertheless, men who don't know me at all, strangers on the street, in the coffeeshops, while driving a car, show no respect at all. At the time I didn't understand Arabic I didn't expierence it, but after time I learned, so now it's bothering me a lot. What right do these men think to have to disrespect me, only because I'm European??? They don't even know me! Only the fact that I'm foreign makes some people think to mark me... They are not the most civilised part of the nation, of course, but they are there... It's the same in Europe. Exactly the same...
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: Okay, lets turn the subject.When I'm in Egypt, I take care of my clothes, I know some clothes I can wear in Europe are not appreciated in Egypt. When I visit a mosque, I cover my hair. Out of respect to the Egyptian culture. Nevertheless, men who don't know me at all, strangers on the street, in the coffeeshops, while driving a car, show no respect at all. At the time I didn't understand Arabic I didn't expierence it, but after time I learned, so now it's bothering me a lot. What right do these men think to have to disrespect me, only because I'm European??? They don't even know me! Only the fact that I'm foreign makes some people think to mark me... They are not the most civilised part of the nation, of course, but they are there... It's the same in Europe. Exactly the same...
Your argument has all of a sudden turned petty and as such I have no further interest in discussing it. We are not talking about a tourist visiting France or Egypt. We are talking about MILLIONS of FRENCH MUSLIM CITIZENS a 10% MINORITY! Who have been violated despite the fact that France is a secular nation and as such one of the main tenets of a secular state is:
Neutrality in Religion and such is not the limitation because a secular state safeguards the freedom of religion and the freedom to express religion.
Furthermore a secular nation is one that does not allow interference from Religion with regards to governmental matters and VICE VERSA or do people forget this part.
A secular state protects minorities – France was doing that for centuries but NOW all of a sudden they have changed the ball game and people like you and others who are volatile towards minorities’ beliefs and minorities attire will say anything to justify such transgression, even if it means making a pathetic analogy about Egyptian males going after a tourist's derriere stories.
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I don't understand why you see it this way, in my opinion it is the same! Of course France in political aspect is not as Egypt. But by law is something different as the behaviour of the average civilian... France still is a state where there is freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and equal rights for all. The muslim part of the society is a minority, and they face the fact that these rights are not for them, because they expierence injustice and unequality. Not by law, but by the people! In Egypt there is a sharia-based law, with much more equality for women then there is in real. Because also there are differences: European women are not the same as Egyptian... I'm not justifying anything, of course its wrong, but this is how the mass acts and thinks...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Exiled: one of the main tenets of a secular state is:
Neutrality in Religion and such is not the limitation because a secular state safeguards the freedom of religion and the freedom to express religion.
Furthermore a secular nation is one that does not allow interference from Religion with regards to governmental matters and VICE VERSA or do people forget this part.
Actually, according to an interview I saw the other week, you are using the American definition of "secular", which is that secularism protects religion from the state, however, France is, and always has, viewed it differently. Laïcité, the French version of secularism, apparently is there to protect the state from religion, which is a completely different kettle of fish.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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Of course when religion becomes a treat to the national security, and the gouvernment is not able to protect their people against this, gouvernments have to take measures. I think in France, but also in other countries in this part of the world ( Belgium, Holland, Germany, Austria..) in the late seventies/early eighties a new kind of nationalism arised. In first instance they were having problems to keep their feet on the ground and they were critised by media, politicians etc... but slowly the situation changed. There were problems with immigrants, there still are, the economical situation changed and so was also the political situation, from social and democratic majority suddenly ultra-right nationalistic parties arised and got enough votes to keep their feet on the ground. At the same time the world situation also changed, terroristic attacks became a serious treat for national security, and there we go... People are mixing all the negative in terrorism, islam, immigrants,problematic groups, feelings of unsafety on one big complainment against muslims. So, right now you only have to look foreign to expierence the consequences. A muslim has to work twice as hard to prove hisself. He has to be clear in his opinion about their bad compatriots and take distance. When he isn't doing that, he can forget it! Is this fair? No, of course it isn't! But it is this way...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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France is struggling under a raising level of intolerance between their civilians. Of course France has a history in colonialisation, and there are many people originating from of the former colonies living there. These people were placed together in separated area's, and right that this are a sort of no-go-area's where even the police doesn't show up, because it's dangerous. This anarchistic free-states into a state became hotbeds of criminality. The people are poor, many of them are unemployed, and stigmatised. Just having an Arabic familyname is enough to limit your futurious prospects, and during the last year this has been causing major violent expressions of discord. It was almost a civilian war in these parts...
I was brown and raised in those areas and I am actually right now on holiday there to see my family. What you have said is not 100% right. Bear in mind that in those areas you can fin a lot of very poor people immigrants originally from North Africa but also a lot of French who are unemployed and who also struggle to find job. Immigrants are not the only one who suffer, and when I come back home and see what have became some of my friends whom I grow up with, is not very nice at all, and when I read what you have wrote I said to myself is not very fair. Indeed, a lot of guys whom I was at school with are now hanging around in the slum, boasting themselves that they do not need to work as the French government pay everything for them. ( Rent, food, and some little extra for their pocket money) . Some of their parents have gone back to their originally country and have left their children in France with nothing, in the hope that they would change. Unfortunately Most of them have already been to prison and simply are unable to keep a job more than 1 week; “ I have tried said one of my friend, but Ian too lazy to wake up to work so early “. Some of them have many children from different girl friends living a little bit everywhere, they drive with not license, steal, sell drugs and so and so. Unfortunately, there is as well an other part of immigrants who also live in those slums and who are very well educated and struggle to find a job. They often pay for the bad reputation of their compatriots who badly behave and who put the rest of them to shame. It is very sad and yes in this case having an Arabic name is not an advantage at all. The thing is that for some French now is difficult to make the difference between the good and the bad and I am sorry but French are not responsible for the lack of education of some of those people and if they refuse to work, because they simply cannot wake up on the morning what can the French do about this?
Posts: 1182 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by *Souri*: France is struggling under a raising level of intolerance between their civilians. Of course France has a history in colonialisation, and there are many people originating from of the former colonies living there. These people were placed together in separated area's, and right that this are a sort of no-go-area's where even the police doesn't show up, because it's dangerous. This anarchistic free-states into a state became hotbeds of criminality. The people are poor, many of them are unemployed, and stigmatised. Just having an Arabic familyname is enough to limit your futurious prospects, and during the last year this has been causing major violent expressions of discord. It was almost a civilian war in these parts...
I was brown and raised in those areas and I am actually right now on holiday there to see my family. What you have said is not 100% right. Bear in mind that in those areas you can fin a lot of very poor people immigrants originally from North Africa but also a lot of French who are unemployed and who also struggle to find job. Immigrants are not the only one who suffer, and when I come back home and see what have became some of my friends whom I grow up with, is not very nice at all, and when I read what you have wrote I said to myself is not very fair. Indeed, a lot of guys whom I was at school with are now hanging around in the slum, boasting themselves that they do not need to work as the French government pay everything for them. ( Rent, food, and some little extra for their pocket money) . Some of their parents have gone back to their originally country and have left their children in France with nothing, in the hope that they would change. Unfortunately Most of them have already been to prison and simply are unable to keep a job more than 1 week; “ I have tried said one of my friend, but Ian too lazy to wake up to work so early “. Some of them have many children from different girl friends living a little bit everywhere, they drive with not license, steal, sell drugs and so and so. Unfortunately, there is as well an other part of immigrants who also live in those slums and who are very well educated and struggle to find a job. They often pay for the bad reputation of their compatriots who badly behave and who put the rest of them to shame. It is very sad and yes in this case having an Arabic name is not an advantage at all. The thing is that for some French now is difficult to make the difference between the good and the bad and I am sorry but French are not responsible for the lack of education of some of those people and if they refuse to work, because they simply cannot wake up on the morning what can the French do about this?
There is no 100% suitable situation for all these people, of course. I know these neighbourhoods, and I know how it is in France. Since the new president came, people even got less trust in their gouvernment. They expierence their situation as hopeless and futureless....
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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