posted
I have just been looking at a site that shows how the prophet did his prayers and find this very ODD.
12- The First Tashahud:
The prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) would sit for Tashhud after finishing the second rak'ah and say : At-Tahiy-yatu lil-lahi was-salawatu wat-tay yibatu, As-Salamy 'alika ay-yuhan-nabiy-yu wa rahma tullahi wa barakatu, As salamu 'alayna wa 'ala 'ibadil-la his-saliheen , Ash hadu al la ilaha illal lahu, wa ash hadu an-na Muhammadan 'abduhu wa rasuluh
This means: All compliments, all physical prayer , and all monetary worship are for Allah. Peace be upon you, O Prophet, and Allah's mercy and blessings. Peace be on us and on all righteous slaves of Allah . I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah. I bear witness that Muhammad (peace be upon him ) is his slave and Messenger.
13- The Second Tashahud The prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) would sit for the second Tashhud after finishing the last rak'ah and would say the first Tashuhud which is in step 12 and then say :
Allah humma sal-li 'ala Muhammadin wa 'ala aali Muhammadin, Kama sal-layta 'ala Ibraheema wa 'ala aali ibraheema innaka hameedum majeed, wa barik 'ala Muhammadin wa 'ala aali Muhammadin, Kama barakta 'ala Ibraheema wa 'ala aali ibraheema innaka hameedum majeed
This means: O Allah, send Grace and Honour on Muhammad (peace be upon him) and on the family and true followers of Muhammad (peace be upon him) just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim (peace be upon him) and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim (peace be upon him). Surely, you are praiseworthy, The Great . O Allah, send blessings on Muhammad (peace be upon him) and on the family and true followers of Muhammad (peace be upon him) just as you sent blessings on Ibrahim (peace be upon him) and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim (peace be upon him). Surely, you are praiseworthy, The Great
What I find odd is that we are being told that prophet Muhammed (pbuh) spoke of himself as a third person. Why didnt he say 'me' where we are told he said 'Muhammed'? Why does HE need to bear witness that he is the messenger of Allah?
Why are we told this is part of the prayer of worship to Allah when it clearly gives Allah a partner in worship?
Muhammed would NEVER have done this, NEVER. What we are told is part of the prayer to Allah is NOT. This last part is more of a Dua'a where one asks for whatever at the end of the WORSHIP, where we can ask for something for ourselves, and if Muhammed said anything LIKE this it would have been in that way. He would NOT speak about himself as a third person and would have said ME, and he would NOT have to bear witness that HE was the messenger.
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posted
Muhammad did not say worship me because no one would have followed him. No cult leader would say worship me because he will not be believed. They all claim to be the messenger of God and then demand obedience and respect because they are the only representatives of God. The Quran is full of exhortations of Muhammad demanding his followers to obey him. If I want to fool you, I will never say I am God worship me. You will never do that. But I can fool you and say I am a messenger of God and now do as I tell you. That is much easier to do.
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posted
undercover you obviously did not read all my post. When you have and want to comment on it I will be happy to answer you.
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posted
From what I have read thus far. I beleive that you call yourself a Moslem am I correct?
You have previously stated that you have been a Moslem for more for quite some time. During this time how have you been praying? I mean, have you been praying differently from what you have discovered on the website in which you found this information on?
Please send us the link for information which you are questioning so that it can be looked at and verified by other Moslems here.
Also may I ask why you said that the Prophet (SAW) would have NEVER said that? What evidence to you have to support this type of statement?
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Why do I say the prophet would never have said that? Did you read what I posted? The prophet is claimed here to be asking God to send blessings on a third person, IF he did include someone else in his worship of God then he was going against what God told him to do in the first place and also he would have said 'me' and not spoken of himself as a third person. The 'evidence' is common sense.
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posted
I was thinking about this and this is a strange question and it may show the weakness in one's faith or the weakness in understanding one's faith or at worst someone trying to place a seed of doubt for other Moslems, I sincerely hope that this is not the case especially from someone who has been a Moslem for quite some time.
It is imperative that we learn our religion without any doubt.
Most Moslems know that Allah speaks in the 3rd person and often times He (Allah) say's "We" and for example Allah says:
"Verily, WE have sent you (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And you will not be asked about the dwellers of the blazing fire." Surah 2:V120
Whatever a Verse do WE abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you that Allah is able to do all things. Surah 2: V106
What do you think happened when the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) recited Al Koran and he came to verse that mentioned his name specifically i.e. "Muhammad" for example):
Muhammad is no more than a Messenger, and indeed many Messengers hav passed away before him. Surah 3:V144
Do you think that Muhammad (SAW) would say "I" instead of saying Muhammad? I don't think so.
Do you think he would change the words of the Koran to reflect speaking in the 1st person? Again I don't think so. But I will give you the opportunity to support your position inshaAllah.
I will post a reply once I have read a reply from you regarding the tashahud InshaAllah.
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Why do I say the prophet would never have said that? Did you read what I posted? The prophet is claimed here to be asking God to send blessings on a third person, IF he did include someone else in his worship of God then he was going against what God told him to do in the first place and also he would have said 'me' and not spoken of himself as a third person. The 'evidence' is common sense.
So when Allah says WE in the following verses:
quote:"Verily, WE have sent you (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And you will not be asked about the dwellers of the blazing fire." Surah 2:V120
Whatever a Verse do WE abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you that Allah is able to do all things. Surah 2: V106
Who is Allah including when we speaks of the 3rd Person. Does Allah need help in sending verses or the permission of someone other than himself to do things? I don't think so.
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quote:Originally posted by Superman to Man: I was thinking about this and this is a strange question and it may show the weakness in one's faith or the weakness in understanding one's faith or at worst someone trying to place a seed of doubt for other Moslems, I sincerely hope that this is not the case especially from someone who has been a Moslem for quite some time.
Sands, I resent you saying that asking a question like this is showing weakness in faith, nor is it showing weakness in understanding my faith. Lets make it clear NOW that my faith in Allah is not weak. Nor am I trying to plant any seeds of doubt in anyones mind about their faith in whoever. Just because I have been a Muslim for some time does not mean that my learning stops EVER and I will continue to question whatever 'the Islamic majority' tell me if I feel it contradicts Quran, which I believe to be the absolute Word of God.
I find it odd that other 'Muslims' have not also asked this question. Maybe it has something to do with the reaction of people like yourself who will accuse them also of having weakness of faith.
quote:It is imperative that we learn our religion without any doubt.
absolutely, and I find learning it easy by reading Quran as then I am getting the PURE message and not the diluted one which includes other mens thoughts, interpretations and ideas.
quote:Most Moslems know that Allah speaks in the 3rd person and often times He (Allah) say's "We" and for example Allah says:
"Verily, WE have sent you (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And you will not be asked about the dwellers of the blazing fire." Surah 2:V120
Whatever a Verse do WE abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you that Allah is able to do all things. Surah 2: V106
What do you think happened when the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) recited Al Koran and he came to verse that mentioned his name specifically i.e. "Muhammad" for example):
Muhammad is no more than a Messenger, and indeed many Messengers hav passed away before him. Surah 3:V144
Do you think that Muhammad (SAW) would say "I" instead of saying Muhammad? I don't think so.
Do you think he would change the words of the Koran to reflect speaking in the 1st person? Again I don't think so. But I will give you the opportunity to support your position inshaAllah.
I will post a reply once I have read a reply from you regarding the tashahud InshaAllah.
Firstly Allah speaks in the 'Royal WE'. That is only for Allah and not for us or His prophets. When Muhammed came to the verses that said his name of course he wouldnt change it to 'me' or 'i' as he was reciting the words of Allah and not his own. This is NOT the case in the prayer as I said. Those words used in Tashahud are NOT from Quran therefore NOT from Allah and not to be used as the 'Royal WE', Unless of course you are claiming Muhammed to be the author of Quran and God in mans body?
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Why do I say the prophet would never have said that? Did you read what I posted? The prophet is claimed here to be asking God to send blessings on a third person, IF he did include someone else in his worship of God then he was going against what God told him to do in the first place and also he would have said 'me' and not spoken of himself as a third person. The 'evidence' is common sense.
So when Allah says WE in the following verses:
quote:"Verily, WE have sent you (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And you will not be asked about the dwellers of the blazing fire." Surah 2:V120
Whatever a Verse do WE abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you that Allah is able to do all things. Surah 2: V106
Who is Allah including when we speaks of the 3rd Person. Does Allah need help in sending verses or the permission of someone other than himself to do things? I don't think so.
I think I have answered your question in my previous post, unless you are saying that Allah does have partners of which Muhammed was one which entitled him to use the Royal 'WE' or speak of himself in the third person that only Allah used?
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posted
I will just point out that using the plural 'We' is not the same as speaking about oneself in the third person.
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posted
Pluralis majestatis ("majestic plural") is the plural pronoun where it is used to refer to a single person holding a high office, such as a monarch, bishop, pope, or university rector. It is also called the "Royal 'we'" or the "Victorian 'we'." The more general word for the use of we to refer to oneself is nosism.
The idea behind the pluralis majestatis is that a monarch or other high official always speaks for his or her people. For example, the Basic Law of the Sultanate of Oman opens thus: On the Issue of the Basic Law of the State We, Qaboos bin Said, Sultan of Oman…
Famous examples of purported instances:
~We are not amused. — Queen Victoria (in at least one account of this quotation, though, she was not speaking for herself alone, but for the ladies of the court.)
~ The abdication statement of Nicholas II of Russia uses the pluralis majestatis liberally, as in "In agreement with the Imperial Duma We have thought it well to renounce the Throne of the Russian Empire and to lay down the supreme power."
Another view of the form is that it reflects the fact that when a monarch speaks he speaks both in his own name and in the name of his function, office or status.
United States Navy Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, most likely quoting Mark Twain, told a subordinate who used the royal we: "Three groups are permitted that usage: pregnant women, royalty, and schizophrenics. Which one are you?" This was said as the subordinate was speaking for superiors without authority as well as in an unofficial capacity.
It is to be distinguished from pluralis modestiae, also pluralis auctoris (inclusion of readers or listeners, respectively), often used in mathematics. For instance:
Let us calculate! — Leibniz
We are thus led also to a definition of "time" in physics. — Albert Einstein
The tradition of the Royal We may be tracked to the same origins as of the Mughals of India and Sultans of Banu Abbas and Banu Umayyah. This tradition use "Royal We" to express their dignity or highest position either understood as strictly hierarchical or as referential to an alternate "higher" than ego identity. This use of "Royal We" has been understood as totally different from the concept of its Western, or Occidental use. Western use here denotes a "Royal We" used by Kings / Queens speaking on behalf of their people, in other words modernized to a secular symbolic. The distinction between Oriental and Occidental Monarchic traditions seem to be superfluous as these monarchic, and wider cultural traditions (i.e. Indo-European) seem to go along the similar genealogical lineages, traces as the linguistic and genetic evolutions.
posted
From the information below you will notice that the companions of the Prophet (SAW) taught them various tashaud:
The Obligation of the First Tashahhud, & theValidity of Supplication during it "He (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) would recite the Tahiyyah after every two rak'ahs"; "the first thing he would say in this sitting would be: All compliments be to Allaah. "When he forgot to perform the tashahhud after the first two rak'ahs, he would prostrate (twice) for forgetfulness.
He used to order them to perform tashahhud, saying, When you sit after every two rak'ahs, then say: All compliments ... and then each of you should select the supplication he likes best and supplicate Allaah, Mighty and Sublime, [with it] in another version: Say, All compliments ... in every sitting, and he also ordered "the one who prayed badly" to do so, as has been mentioned.
"He (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) would teach them the tashahhud the way he taught them Soorahs of the Qur'aan, and "the Sunnah is to say it quietly.
The Manner of Tashahhud He taught several ways of tashahhud: The tashahhud of Ibn Mas'ood, who said, "The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) taught me the tashahhud, [with] my palm between his palms, the way he taught me Soorahs of the Qur'aan:
All compliments, prayers and pure words are due to Allaah. Peace be on you, O Prophet, and also the mercy of Allaah and His blessings. Peace be on us, and on the righteous slaves of Allaah. [For when one says that, it includes every righteous slave in the heaven and the earth.] I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and messenger.
[This was while he was among us, but after he was taken, we would say:
The tashahhud of Ibn 'Abbaas: "The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) used to teach us the tashahhud the way he taught us [soorahs of] the Qur'aan; he used to say,
All compliments, blessed words, prayers, pure words are due to Allaah. Peace be on you, O Prophet, and also the mercy of Allaah and His blessings. Peace be on us and on the righteous slaves of Allaah. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah, and [I bear witness] that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah (in one narration: ... is His slave and messenger).
The tashahhud of Ibn 'Umar, who reported the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) as saying in the tashahhud:
All compliments, prayers and good words are due to Allaah. Peace be on you, O Prophet, and also the mercy of Allaah - Ibn 'Umar said, "I add: ... and His blessings. - Peace be on us and on the righteous slaves of Allaah. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah - Ibn 'Umar said, "I add: ... alone, He has no partner, - and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and messenger.
The tashahhud of Abu Moosaa al-Ash'ari, who said that the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, ... when you are sitting, the first thing each of you says should be:
All compliments, good words and prayers are due to Allaah. Peace be on you, O Prophet, and also the mercy of Allaah and His blessings. Peace be on us, and on the righteous slaves of Allaah. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah [alone, He has no partner], and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and messenger - seven phrases, and they are the greetings in the prayer.
The tashahhud of 'Umar ibn al-Khattaab, who would teach the people the tashahhud while on the pulpit, saying, "Say:
All compliments are due to Allaah; all pure titles are due to Allaah; all good words [are due to Allaah]; all prayers are due to Allaah. Peace be on you, O Prophet, and also the mercy of Allaah and His blessings. Peace be on us and on the righteous slaves of Allaah. I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and messenger.
As-Salaah 'alaa an-Nabiyy(Sending Prayers on the Prophet) - Its Place & Manner He (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) used to send prayers on himself in the first tashahhud as well as the other. He also established it for his ummah, ordering them to send prayers on him after sending peace on him, and he taught them several ways of doing so:
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on his household, and on his wives and progeny, as you sent prayers on the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory. And send blessings on Muhammad, and his household, and his wives and progeny, as you sent blessings on the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory.
This supplication he would use himself.
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent prayers on [Ibraaheem, and on the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory. O Allaah! send blessings on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent blessings on Ibraaheem, and on the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory.
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent prayers on Ibraaheem, [and the family of Ibraaheem]; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory. And send blessings on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent blessings on [Ibraaheem, and] the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory.
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad [the Unlettered Prophet], and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent prayers on [the family of] Ibraaheem; and send blessings on Muhammad [the Unlettered Prophet] and the family of Muhammad, as you sent blessings on [the family of] Ibraaheem among the nations; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory.
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, Your slave and messenger, as You sent prayers on [the family of] Ibraaheem. And send blessings on Muhammad [Your slave and messenger], [and the family of Muhammad,] as you sent blessings on Ibraaheem [and on the famly of Ibraaheem
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad and [on] his wives and progeny, as You sent prayers on [the family of Ibraaheem]. And send blessings on Muhammad, and [on] his wives and progeny, as You sent blessings on [the family of] Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory.
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, and send blessings on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent prayers and sent blessings on Ibraaheem and the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory.
Important Notes about as-Salaah 'alaa an-Nabiyy - Sending Prayers on the Prophet of the Ummah 1) It can be seen that in most of these ways of sending prayers on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), there is no mention of Ibraaheem separate from his family, the wording being, "... as you have sent prayers on the family of Ibraaheem." The reason for this is that in 'Arabic, the family of a man includes the man as well as his dependants, e.g. in the words of the Exalted, "Allaah has chosen Aadam, Nooh, the family of Ibraaheem and the family of 'Imraan above all people" (al-'Imraan 3:33);
"We sent against them a violent tornado with showers of stones, except the family of Loot - We delivered them by early dawn" (Qamar 54:34); similar is his saying (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), O Allaah! send prayers on the family of Abu Awfaa. The phrase Ahl al-Bayt (people of the house) is also like this, e.g.
"Allaah's grace and His blessings be on you, O people of the house" (Houd 11:73). Hence, Ibraaheem is included in "the family of Ibraaheem".
Shaikh-ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah says,
"Most of the versions have, 'as you sent prayers on the family of Ibraaheem' and 'as you sent blessings on the family of Ibraaheem'; some have 'Ibraaheem' himself. This is because he is the cause of all prayers and purifications on them; the rest of his family are secondary recipients of all that. To show these two points, both wordings have been employed separately." Further, there is a well-known question among the people of knowledge: about the nature of the comparison in his statement, "as you sent prayers on ...", for it is true that the model for comparison is normally superior to the one being compared; here, the opposite is the case, since Muhammad (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is greater than Ibraaheem, and so his superiority dictates that the prayers requested are more excellent than any prayers received or to be received by anyone else. The people of knowledge have provided many answers to this, and these can be found in Fath al-Baari and Jalaa' al-Ifhaam. They amount to about ten views, all of which are unsubstantiated, some weaker than others, except one, a well-supported view, and adopted by Shaikh-ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn al-Qayyim. This view is: "The family of Ibraaheem includes many prophets; none like them is found in the family of Muhammad. Therefore, when prayers on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his family are sought similar to that bestowed on Ibraaheem and his family, which includes prophets, the family of Muhammad receives out of that what is appropriate for them. Since the family of Muhammad does not reach the rank of the prophets, the extra blessings and benefit given to the prophets, including Ibraaheem, are left for Muhammad (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam). Thus he gains a distinguished position which others cannot reach."
Ibn al-Qayyim says,
"This is the best of all the previous views: that Muhammad (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is one of the family of Ibraaheem; in fact, he is the best of the family of Ibraaheem, as 'Ali ibn Talhah has related from Ibn 'Abbaas (radi Allaahu 'anhu) about the saying of the Exalted, "Allaah has chosen Aadam, Nooh, the family of Ibraaheem and the family of 'Imraan above all people" (aal-'Imraan 3:33); Ibn 'Abbaas said, "Muhammad is among the family of Ibraaheem". This is text for the fact that if other prophets descended from Ibraaheem are included in his family, then the inclusion of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is more fitting. Hence our saying, "... as you sent prayers on the family of Ibraaheem", includes the prayers sent on him and on the rest of the prophets descended from Ibraaheem. Allaah has then ordered us to specifically send prayers on Muhammad and his family, as much as we send prayers on him, along with the rest of Ibraaheem's family generally. Therefore, the Prophet's family receives out of that what is appropriate for them, leaving all of the remainder to him (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam). There is no doubt that the total amount of prayers received by Ibraaheem's family, with the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) among them, is greater than that received by the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) alone. Therefore, what is sought for him is such a great favour, definitely superior than that sought for Ibraaheem. Hence, the nature of the comparison and its consistency become clear. The prayers sought for him with these words are greater than those requested any other way, since what is requested with the supplication is that it be as much as the model of comparison, and that the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) receive a large portion: the comparison dictates that what is requested is more than what was given to Ibraaheem and others. Thus, the excellence and nobility of Muhammad (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), over and above Ibraaheem and his family, which includes many prophets, is evident, and is as he deserves. This sending of prayers on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) becomes evidence for this excellence of his, and this is no more than he deserves. So, may Allaah send prayers on him and on his family, and send peace on them, many greetings of peace, and reward him from our supplications better than He has rewarded any prophet from his people. O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent prayers on the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory. And send blessings on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent blessings on the family of Ibraaheem; You are indeed Worthy of Praise, Full of Glory." 2) The reader will see that this part of the Prayer, with all its different types, is always a sending of prayers on the family of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam): on his wives and children as well as himself. Therefore, it is neither from the Sunnah, nor carrying out the Prophet's command, to leave it at "O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad" only. Rather, one of these complete types of supplication must be used, as is reported from his action (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), whether in the first or the last tashahhud. There is text about this from Imaam Shaafi'i in al-Umm: "The tashahhud in the first and second instance is the same thing; by 'tashahhud', I mean the bearing of witness and the sending of prayers on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam): neither will suffice without the other." In fact, one of the most amazing things to arise from this age and its intellectual anarchy is that one person, Muhammad Is'aaf Nashaasheebi, in his book al-Islaam as-Saheeh ("The Correct Islaam"), has the audacity to reject the sending of prayers on the family of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) when sending prayers on him, despite it being firmly established in the Saheehs of al-Bukhaari and Muslim, and elsewhere, on the authority of several Companions, e.g. Ka'b ibn 'Ujrah, Abu Humaid as-Saa'idi, Abu Sa'eed al-Khudri, Abu Mas'ood al-Ansaari, Abu Hurairah and Talhah ibn 'Ubaidullaah! In their ahaadeeth, it is found that they asked the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), "How do we send prayers on you?", so he taught them this way of doing so. Nashaasheebi's argument for his view is that Allaah the Exalted did not mention anyone else with the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) in His saying:
"O you who believe! Send prayers on him, and salute him with all respect." (Ahzaab 33:56) He then goes on to say in his refutation that the Companions asked him (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) that question because the meaning of "salaah" was known to them as "supplication", so they were asking: "How can we supplicate to you?"!
This is a clear deception, for their question was not about the meaning of "salaah" on him, in which case he would have a point, but it was about the manner of doing the salaah on him, as is found in the narrations to which we have referred. Thus it all fits, for they asked him about the way of doing it according to the Sharee'ah, something which they could not possibly find out except from the guidance of the All-Knowing, All-Wise, Giver of the Sharee'ah. Similarly, they could also ask him about the way of performing the Salaah made obligatory by words of the Exalted such as "Establish the Salaah (Prayer)"; for their knowledge of the literal meaning of "Salaah" could not remove their need to ask about its manner according to the Sharee'ah, and this is crystal clear.
As for Nashaasheebi's argument referred to, it is of no consequence, for it is well-known among the Muslims that the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is the expounder of the words of the Lord of the Worlds, as He says:
"And We have sent down to you the Message that you may explain clearly to the people what is sent for them" (Nahl 16:44). Hence, the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) explained the way of doing salaah on him, and it included mention of his family, so it is compulsory to accept that from him, due to Allaah's saying:
So take what the Messenger gives you (Hashr 59:7), and the well-known authentic hadeeth, Verily, I have been given the Qur'aan and something similar to it.225
I really wonder what Nashaasheebi and those taken in by his pompous words would say if someone were to reject the tashahhud in prayer altogether, or reject the menstruating woman's abstaining from prayer and fasting, all with the argument that Allaah the Exalted did not mention the tashahhud in the Qur'aan; He only mentioned bowing and prostration, and He did not exempt a menstruating woman from prayer and fasting in the Qur'aan!! So, do they agree with such arguments, which are along the lines of his original one, or not? If they do, and we hope not, then they have strayed far, far away from guidance, and have left the mainstream of the Muslims; if they do not, then they are correct in agreeing with us, and their reasons for rejecting those arguments are exactly the same as our reasons for rejecting Nashaasheebi's original pronouncement, which we have explained clearly.
Therefore beware, O Muslims, of attempting to understand the Qur'aan without recourse to the Sunnah, for you will never be able to do that, even if you were the Seebawaih226 of the age, the expert of the age in the 'Arabic language. Here is an example in front of you, for this Nashaasheebi is one of the leading scholars of the 'Arabic language of this period; you have seen how he has strayed, after being deceived by his knowledge of the language, by not seeking the aid of the Sunnah in understanding the Qur'aan; in fact he has rejected this aid, as you know. There are many other examples of this - there is not enough room here to mention them, but what we have mentioned will suffice, and Allaah is the Granter of all capability.
3) The reader will also see that in none of these types of salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is there the word sayyid (chief, leader). The later scholars have differed about the validity of its inclusion in the Ibraaheemee salaah. Due to lack of space we will not go into the details of that nor make mention of those who rejected its validity in keeping with the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam)'s complete teaching to his ummah when he instructed, "Say: O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad ..." on being asked about the manner of salaah on him, but we will quote the Haafidh Ibn Hajr al-'Asqalaani on this, bearing in mind his position as one of the great Shaafi'i scholars of both hadeeth and fiqh, for contradiction of this teaching of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) has become widespread among Shaafi'i scholars!
Haafiz Muhammad ibn Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Ghuraabeeli (790- 835 AH), a companion of Ibn Hajr, said, and I quote from his manuscript227:
He (i.e. Ibn Hajr), may Allaah benefit us with his life, was asked about the features of salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), whether during prayer or outside it, compulsory or recommended: Is one of its conditions that the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) be attributed with sayaadah (leadership), e.g. 'O Allaah! send prayers on sayyidinaa (our leader) Muhammad ...' or 'the foremost of creation', or 'the leader of the children of Aadam' etc.? Or should one stick to 'O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad'? Which of these two is the better approach: including the word sayyid, due to it being an established attribute of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), or leaving it out due to the absence of it in the narrations? He (Ibn Hajr), may Allaah be pleased with him, replied: "Yes, to follow the narrated wording is superior. It cannot be said, "Maybe the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) himself did not say it out of modesty, just as he did not say (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) on mention of his name, although his ummah has been encouraged to do so" - for we say that if that were superior, it would have been quoted from the Companions and then from the Successors, but we do not come across it in any narrations from any Companion or Successor. This is despite the volume of quotations from them. We have Imaam Shaafi'i, may Allaah exalt his rank, one of the foremost among men in his respect for the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), saying in the preface to his book which is a base for the people of his madhhab: "O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad ..." etc. until the end of what his judgment dictated, "... every time one of the rememberers remembers him, and every time one of the heedless fails to remember him", which he seems to have deduced from the authentic hadeeth which has in it that the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) saw the Mother of the Believers engaging in long and numerous glorifications, so he said to her, "You have said words which, if weighed against the following, would be balanced: Glorified be Allaah, as many times as the number of His creation"; he (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) used to like supplications which were concise, but exhaustive in meaning. Qaadi 'Iyaad set out a chapter about salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) in his book ash- Shifaa' (The Book of Cure), quoting in it narrations from the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) on the authority of several Companions and Successors; in none of these is the word sayyid reported: a) The hadith of 'Ali, that he used to teach them the manner of salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) by saying, O Allaah, Spreader of Plains, Originator of Heights, send the foremost of Your prayers, the most fertile of Your blessings, and any remaining compliments, on Muhammad, Your slave and messenger, the opener of what is closed. b) Again from 'Ali, that he used to say, "The prayers of Allaah, the Beneficent, the Merciful, of the Angels nearest (to Allaah), of the Prophets, of the Sincere ones, of the Witnesses, of the Righteous, and of whatever glorifies You, O Lord of the Worlds, be on Muhammad son of 'Abdullaah, Seal of the Prophets, Imaam of the Godfearers, ... etc." c) On the authority of 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood, that he used to say, "O Allaah! send Your prayers, Your blessings and Your mercy, on Muhammad, Your slave and messenger, the imaam of goodness, the messenger of mercy, ..." etc. d) From al-Hasan al-Basri, that he used to say, "Whoever wants to drink from the cup which quenches, from the fount of the al-Mustafaa, should say: O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on his family, his Companions, his wives, his children, his descendants, his household, his in-laws, his helpers, his followers, and all those who love him." This is what he (Qaadi 'Iyaad) has written in ash- Shifaa', regarding the manner of salaah on the Prophet, on the authority of the Companions and those who succeeded them, and he also mentioned other things in it. Yes, it is related in a hadeeth of Ibn Mas'ood that in his salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), he would say, "O Allaah! send the best of Your prayers, mercy and blessings on the leader (sayyid) of the messengers ..." etc., transmitted by Ibn Maajah, but its isnaad is weak, so the hadeeth of 'Ali, transmitted by Tabaraani with a acceptable isnaad, takes precedence. This hadeeth has difficult words, which I have reported and explained in the book Fadl an-Nabi (Excellence of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam)") by Abul Hasan ibn al-Faaris. Some Shaafi'is have said that if a man took an oath to send the best salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), the way to fulfil his oath would be to say, "O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad every time the rememberers remember him or the heedless fail to remember him"; Nawawi said, "The one which is most fitting to be designated as correct is that one should say: O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad, as you sent prayers on Ibraaheem ..." Several of the later scholars have replied to this by saying that in neither of the two ways mentioned above is there anything to prove which is superior as regards narration, but as regards the meaning, then the former is clearly superior. This issue is well-known in the books of fiqh, and of all the scholars of fiqh who addressed this issue, without exception, in none of their words does the word sayyid appear. Had this additional word been commendable, it would not have escaped all of them, leaving them ignorant of it. All good is in following what is narrated, and Allaah knows best." Ibn Hajr's view of the unacceptability of describing the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) as sayyid during the salaah on him in accordance with the Qur'aanic order, is also that of the Hanafi scholars. It is the view which must be adhered to, for it is a true indication of love for him, (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam); "Say: If you do love Allaah, then follow me: Allaah will love you." (aal-'Imraan 3:31)
Because of this, Imaam Nawawi said in Rawdah at-Taalibeen (1/265), "The most complete salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is: O Allaah! send your prayers on Muhammad ..." etc., corresponding to type no. 3 given, in which there is no mention of sayyid!
4) It should be known that types nos. 1 and 4 are the ones which the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) taught his Companions when they asked about the manner of salaah on him, so this has been used as evidence that these are the best ways of doing the salaah on him, for he would not choose anything for them or himself except the best and noblest. Imaam Nawawi, as mentioned, endorsed (in Rawdah at- Taalibeen) that if a man were to take an oath to do the best possible salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), this could not be fulfilled except in these ways.
Subki has given another reason: whoever does salaah with those types has made salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) with certainty, and whoever does so with other words is in doubt whether or not he has performed the prayers as requested. This is because they said, "How do we send prayers on you?" and he replied, "Say: ...", thus defining their salaah on him as their saying such-and-such. This was mentioned by Haitami in ad-Darr al-Mandood (25/2); he then said (27/1) that the objective is achieved with all the types which have occurred in authentic ahaadeeth.
5) It should be known that it is not valid to combine all these way into one way of salaah, and the same goes for the different tashahhuds given previously. In fact, that would be an innovation in the religion; the Sunnah is to say different ones at different times, as Shaikh-ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah has explained in his discussion of the takbeers of the two 'Eids (Majmoo' al-Fataawaa 29/253/1).
6) 'Allaamah Siddeeq Hasan Khaan says in his book Nuzul al- Abraar bil 'Ilm al-Ma'thoor min al-Ad'iyah wal-Adhkaar, after giving many ahaadeeth about the excellence of repeated salaah on the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) (p. 161):
"There is no doubt that the foremost among the Muslims in sending salaah on him (sall-Allaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) are the People of Hadeeth and the narrators of the purified Sunnah, for it is one of their duties in this noble branch of learning to make salaah on him before every hadeeth, and so their tongues are always engaged in his mention, may Allah grant him mercy and peace. There is no book of Sunnah or collection of hadeeth, be it a jaami', musnad, mu'jam, juz', etc., except that it comprises thousands of ahaadeeth; even one of the least bulky ones, Suyooti's al-Jaami' as-Sagheer, contains ten thousand ahaadeeth, and the rest of the collections are no different. So this is the Saved Sect: the body of the People of Hadeeth, who will be the closest among men to the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) on the Day of Resurrection, and the most likely to be rewarded by his intercession (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), may my mother and father be sacrificed for him! This excellence of the People of Hadeeth cannot be surpassed by anyone unless he does more than what they do, something which is well-nigh impossible. Therefore, O desirer of good, seeker of salvation, no matter what, you should either be a muhaddith, or be close to the muhadditheen; do not be otherwise ... for apart from that there is nothing which will benefit you."
I ask Allaah, Blessed and Exalted, to make me one of these People of Hadeeth, who are the closest among men to the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam); perhaps this book will be a testimony to that. May Allaah shower His mercy on Imaam Ahmad, who recited:
The religion of Muhammad is in narrations, The best mounts for a young man are the traditions; Turn not away from Hadeeth and its people, For Opinion is night, while Hadeeth is day, A young man can be ignorant of the guidance ... Although the sun is shining in all its splendour !
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Pluralis majestatis ("majestic plural") is the plural pronoun where it is used to refer to a single person holding a high office, such as a monarch, bishop, pope, or university rector. It is also called the "Royal 'we'" or the "Victorian 'we'." The more general word for the use of we to refer to oneself is nosism.
The idea behind the pluralis majestatis is that a monarch or other high official always speaks for his or her people. For example, the Basic Law of the Sultanate of Oman opens thus: On the Issue of the Basic Law of the State We, Qaboos bin Said, Sultan of Oman…
Famous examples of purported instances:
~We are not amused. — Queen Victoria (in at least one account of this quotation, though, she was not speaking for herself alone, but for the ladies of the court.)
~ The abdication statement of Nicholas II of Russia uses the pluralis majestatis liberally, as in "In agreement with the Imperial Duma We have thought it well to renounce the Throne of the Russian Empire and to lay down the supreme power."
Another view of the form is that it reflects the fact that when a monarch speaks he speaks both in his own name and in the name of his function, office or status.
United States Navy Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, most likely quoting Mark Twain, told a subordinate who used the royal we: "Three groups are permitted that usage: pregnant women, royalty, and schizophrenics. Which one are you?" This was said as the subordinate was speaking for superiors without authority as well as in an unofficial capacity.
It is to be distinguished from pluralis modestiae, also pluralis auctoris (inclusion of readers or listeners, respectively), often used in mathematics. For instance:
Let us calculate! — Leibniz
We are thus led also to a definition of "time" in physics. — Albert Einstein
The tradition of the Royal We may be tracked to the same origins as of the Mughals of India and Sultans of Banu Abbas and Banu Umayyah. This tradition use "Royal We" to express their dignity or highest position either understood as strictly hierarchical or as referential to an alternate "higher" than ego identity. This use of "Royal We" has been understood as totally different from the concept of its Western, or Occidental use. Western use here denotes a "Royal We" used by Kings / Queens speaking on behalf of their people, in other words modernized to a secular symbolic. The distinction between Oriental and Occidental Monarchic traditions seem to be superfluous as these monarchic, and wider cultural traditions (i.e. Indo-European) seem to go along the similar genealogical lineages, traces as the linguistic and genetic evolutions.
If you have visited Alexandria, Egypt you will notice that the Arabs there speak commonly in the 3rd person. It is very normal for them and strange for Egyptians.
Just food for thought someone can confirm this as well.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Superman to Man: This supplication he would use himself.
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad,
Allah who will send prayers on Muhammed !! Shouldn't the human who send prayers to his God?
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Superman to Man: I you have visited Alexandria, Egypt you will notice that the Arabs there speak commonly in the 3rd person. It is very normal for them and strange for Egyptians.
Just food for thought someone can confirm this as well.
So Allah is from Alexandria!you still batman not superman Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Superman to Man: This supplication he would use himself.
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad,
Allah who will send prayers on Muhammed !! Shouldn't the human who send prayers to his God?
"O you who believe! Send prayers on him, and salute him with all respect." (Ahzaab 33:56)
No sands, the first part here you are saying that the prophet asked Allah to pray to him, the second part is Allah telling us to send prayers for Muhammed. there is a BIG difference.There is also a very big difference in your translation, the actual word used is not 'prayer' in the verses you quoted, its 'Blessings' which is different to prayers.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Superman to Man: This supplication he would use himself.
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad,
Allah who will send prayers on Muhammed !! Shouldn't the human who send prayers to his God?
"O you who believe! Send prayers on him, and salute him with all respect." (Ahzaab 33:56)
This for people or for God?
Allah order the entire world to send prayers on Muhammad (SAW) and those who believe in the Koran must obey this verse becasue Allah does it and orders Moslems to do it:
"Allah send his Salat upon the Prophet and also His angels. O you who believe! Send your Salat on him." Surah 33:V56
Now if Allah sends Salat on the Prophet(SAW) you better humble yourself and do the same and what better place to do it then in the 5 daily fard prayers, the sunnah prayers and the nawafil prayers?
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"Allah send his Salat upon the Prophet and also His angels. O you who believe! Send your Salat on him." Surah 33:V56
Now if Allah sends Salat on the Prophet(SAW) you better humble yourself and do the same and what better place to do it then in the 5 daily fard prayers, the sunnah prayers and the nawafil prayers?
what do you mean by SALAT?
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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"Allah send his Salat upon the Prophet and also His angels. O you who believe! Send your Salat on him." Surah 33:V56
Now if Allah sends Salat on the Prophet(SAW) you better humble yourself and do the same and what better place to do it then in the 5 daily fard prayers, the sunnah prayers and the nawafil prayers?
what do you mean by SALAT?
It is a very vast Arabic word i.e. Salaat. In this ayat Allah says:
innallaha wa malaaekatuhu yusalluna alannabii.
Your task, should you accept Freshone! Is to find out what the word Salaat in Arabic means. I'm not gonna give you that answr easily Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: There is also a very big difference in your translation, the actual word used is not 'prayer' in the verses you quoted, its 'Blessings' which is different to prayers.
In Arabic translation it's PRAYER nut in English translation is BLESSING, they used to change the meaning of such words like this to avoid non Arabic speakers understand how much value of Muhammed which is equal to God in some verses like 48:13 ,58:20
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Superman to Man: This supplication he would use himself.
O Allaah! send prayers on Muhammad, and on the family of Muhammad,
Allah who will send prayers on Muhammed !! Shouldn't the human who send prayers to his God?
"O you who believe! Send prayers on him, and salute him with all respect." (Ahzaab 33:56)
This for people or for God?
Allah order the entire world to send prayers on Muhammad (SAW) and those who believe in the Koran must obey this verse becasue Allah does it and orders Moslems to do it:
"Allah send his Salat upon the Prophet and also His angels. O you who believe! Send your Salat on him." Surah 33:V56
Now if Allah sends Salat on the Prophet(SAW) you better humble yourself and do the same and what better place to do it then in the 5 daily fard prayers, the sunnah prayers and the nawafil prayers?
So now you have Allah praying to Muhammed? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: So now you have Allah praying to Muhammed?
I think now you can understand why Jesus as God's word to humans,spoke behalf of God,rised deads,heales sickness,deserves to be follow than a normal human killed people,married many women and wanted to recieve the same value of JESUS.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: So now you have Allah praying to Muhammed?
I think now you can understand why Jesus as God's word to human deserves to be follow than a normal human who wanted to recieve the same value.
well no fresh because Jesus was a human being also. But it is becoming clearer how Muhammed is being put in the same postion by Muslims as Jesus was put by Christians, and they dont even see it, which is also what Allah warned about.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: well no fresh because Jesus was a human being also. But it is becoming clearer how Muhammed is being put in the same postion by Muslims as Jesus was put by Christians, and they dont even see it, which is also what Allah warned about.
If he was only Human being,how he is still living up to now and will come back on Judgment day?
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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Does God sleep, eat, drink, get tired, use the bathroom? Did Jesus?
sands you didnt answer me. Does Allah pray to Muhammed? Do God and the Angels supplicate to Muhammed?
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
The Quran Positioned Mohammed As The Center Of Praise In Heaven, And On Earth
Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the prophet. O ye who believe? Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worth salutation (Surat Al-Ahzab 33:56 MPT)
The literal translation of this verse is:
Allah and His angels pray on the prophet. O ye who believe pray on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: So where is Jesus living now fresh?
Answer me this
Does God sleep, eat, drink, get tired, use the bathroom? Did Jesus?
It's good that you asked this question,in heaven no food,no sex,no marriage or bathroom these are the requirement to live on earth and were given by from p.Muhammed about paradise to tempting people who were living in desert to join him,but in Heaven no need for food and sex as it's an eternal life no need for food to live.
Jesus said in Luke 20:34-36 34 "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage."
35 "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"
36"and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection."
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: So where is Jesus living now fresh?
Answer me this
Does God sleep, eat, drink, get tired, use the bathroom? Did Jesus?
Very often one finds Muslims arguing that Jesus could not be the eternal, divine Son of God since he was a human being and, as such, needed to sleep (Mark 4.38), became hungry (Luke 4.2) and thirsty (John 19.28), and so on. Because he needed to eat, drink and sleep like all other men it is claimed he could not have been divine for God is self-subsistent and depends on nothing.
These are the requirement to live on earth although when the disciples invited Jesus to eat he said in John 4:34 "My food is to do the will of the one who sent me and to finish his work"
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: So where is Jesus living now fresh?
Answer me this
Does God sleep, eat, drink, get tired, use the bathroom? Did Jesus?
It's good that you asked this question,in heaven no food,no sex,no marriage or bathroom these are the requirement to live on earth and were given by from p.Muhammed about paradise to tempting people who were living in desert to join him,but in Heaven no need for food and sex as it's an eternal life no need for food to live.
Jesus said in Luke 20:34-36 34 "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage."
35 "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"
36"and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection."
Fresh you misunderstood my question. I asked DID Jesus sleep, eat, drink, get tired, use the bathroom? meaning when he was on Earth.
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posted
The Bible teaches that the eternal Word became flesh and took on a real human nature.
What this basically means is that Christ is both God and man, having all the attributes belonging to both Deity and humanity at the very same time. Jesus is truly God in every way, and is also a real human being in every sense with the exception of sin. The things he experienced as man did not affect the integrity of his Deity, and yet at the same time his Divine abilities and qualities were not part of his human nature. He had (and continues to have) two distinct natures, two distinct sets of attributes simultaneously without either of them fusing in or mixing with the other.
Thus, since Jesus became a real human being he truly hungered and thirsted like all men. Yet since he is also truly God he is the Bread of Life and the Living Water:
"Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, "Give me a drink,"you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.’ … Jesus said to her, ‘Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I WILL GIVE HIM will never be thirsty forever. The water that I WILL GIVE HIM will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.’" John 4:10, 13-14
"Jesus then said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God IS HE WHO COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN and gives life to the world.’ They said to him, ‘Sir, give us this bread always.’ Jesus said to them, ‘I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.’" John 6:35-38
"‘This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I WILL RAISE HIM UP on the last day.For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, AND I IN HIM. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.’" John 6:50-58
"On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, ‘If anyone thirsts, let him come TO ME and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."’ Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." John 7:37-39
And being a real human Jesus got tired and slept. Yet since he is also truly God, he is the very Rest and Comfort of all those who are weary:
"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30
That is why the Holy Bible has no problem portraying the Lord Jesus as truly human and also as true Deity, as the very Sovereign Sustainer of all creation:
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and IN HIM all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him," Colossians 1:15-22
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," Colossians 2:9
"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Hebrews 1:2-3
Now about Jesus weeping, Christ is only visibly expressing as a man what God himself feels over the plight of sin and human pain:
"The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, ‘I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.’" Genesis 6:5-7
"How often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved him in the desert!" Psalm 78:40 "Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations to which they will be carried captive, how I have been hurt by their adulterous hearts which turned away from Me, and by their eyes which played the harlot after their idols; and they will (C)loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed, for all their abominations." Ezekiel 6:9
"My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all. How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my burning anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not a man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath." Hosea 11:8-9
Jesus is basically giving a human expression to God’s emotions, visibly revealing the very heart and deep compassions of God for the plight of fallen humanity.
To conclude, Jesus became a true human being and in so doing experienced the weaknesses, limitations, and temptations that are common to humanity with one sole exception; Jesus was absolutely sinless and perfect. Thus, the statements that speak of Jesus’ human limitations do absolutely nothing to refute the clear Biblical witness that Jesus was also God. The Holy Bible teaches that Jesus is God and man. It is not that Jesus has to either be God or man but that he is both God and man at the same time. What was true of his humanity didn’t apply to his Deity and vice-versa, i.e. as man he tired but as God his energy and power are infinite and inexhaustible.
The testimony of the Holy Bible is clear. It states both, that Jesus is the eternal Son of God (one of the Persons of the eternal Triune God), and that this eternal Word of God, who was involved in all of creation, by whom everything was created, and who sustains all of creation to this day, himself entered creation by becoming a human being.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. …The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3, 14
Does the Muslim objector really want to say: God is not able to become man? God cannot take on human nature? According to the Bible God is able to do more than many Muslims would want to give him permission for.
Posts: 156 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Fresh you misunderstood my question. I asked DID Jesus sleep, eat, drink, get tired, use the bathroom? meaning when he was on Earth.
I answered as you meant how jesus living in Heaven,but if you meant on earth so you shall ask what if Jesus did drink or eat could he died?? Jesus called himself the heaven bread and the living water and aslo said "For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.’" John 6:35-38
Jesus might be got tired and slept but he said to the people "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you REST" Matthew 11:28-30 no problem portraying Jesus as truly human and also as true Deity and when you dive or fly to space you have to follow the rules of Oxygen and pressure of these environments,Jesus was also fully human as he came from Mary,Christians understand this fact and when God spoke to Moses throught a tree how you think about that?
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Fresh you misunderstood my question. I asked DID Jesus sleep, eat, drink, get tired, use the bathroom? meaning when he was on Earth.
I answered as you meant how jesus living in Heaven,but if you meant on earth so you shall ask what if Jesus did drink or eat could he died?? Jesus called himself the heaven bread and the living water when he said"For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.’" John 6:35-38
Jesus might be got tired and slept but he said to the people "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you REST" Matthew 11:28-30 no problem portraying Jesus as truly human and also as true Deity and when you dive or fly to space you have to follow the rules of Oxygen and pressure of these environments,Jesus was also fully human as he came from Mary,Christians understand this fact.
Jesus didn't say that. Some guy they called Matthew said Jesus said that, and christian scholars have already established that Matthew wasn't even a disciple of Jesus and he never heard Jesus say anything and there is no isnad from Matthew to Jesus to authentic it.
So just say some guy named Matthew said Jesus said that and you Christians are running around talking about what Jesus said and not one of those gusy: Mark, Matthew, Luke or John met Jesus! Not one!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I have to go. You 3 kaffirs aruging over Islaam and Christianity is amusing!
Chow..Cheers! Adios!
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
The early Christians were as anxious as we are to know what Christ has said and done. The Greeks and Romans had developed quite high standards of historical writing. They knew this should report objective facts, proved by eyewitness accounts and original documents.
Modern scholars judge that several of the ancient historians were trustworthy and accurate in the writings which they left us. Herodotus, Thucydides, Polybius and Tacitus were outstanding; Josephus, Caesar, Polybius and Livy note-worthy. Even if some people were careless about it the early Christian writers certainly knew what accurate recording involved.12 Consequently, we should take Luke's claim seriously when he says he has consulted eyewitnesses (Lk. 1:2) and then continues: `Because I have carefully studied all these matters from their beginning, I thought it would be good to write an orderly account of them for you. I do this so that you will know the full truth about everything which you have been taught (Lk. 1:3-4).
Many of the great Muslim thinkers have, indeed, accepted the authenticity of the New Testament text. Listing the names of these men seems a fitting conclusion to this essay. Their testimony proves that Christian-Muslim dialogue need not for ever be stymied by the allegation introduced by Ibn-Khazem. Two great historians, Al-Mas'udi (died 956) and Ibn-Khaldun (died 1406), held the authenticity of the Gospel text. Four well-known theologians agreed with this: Ali at-Tabari (died 855), Qasim al-Khasani (died 860), 'Amr al-Ghakhiz (died 869) and, last but not least, the famous Al-Ghazzali (died 1111).14 Their view is shared by Abu Ali Husain Ibn Sina, who is known in the West as Avicenna (died 1037). Bukhari (died 870), who acquired a great name by his collection of early traditions, quoted the Qur'an itself (Sura 3:72,78) to prove that the text of the Bible was not falsified.15 Finally, Muhammad Abduh Sayyid Ahmad Khan, a religious and social reformer of modem times (died 1905), accepted the findings of modern science. He said:
As far as the text of the Bible is concerned. it has not been altered ... No attempt was made to present a diverging text as the authentic one.16
May God be praised for the witness of these honest men.
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: So just say some guy named Matthew said Jesus said that and you Christians are running around talking about what Jesus said and not one of those gusy: Mark, Matthew, Luke or John met Jesus! Not one!
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Fresh you misunderstood my question. I asked DID Jesus sleep, eat, drink, get tired, use the bathroom? meaning when he was on Earth.
I answered as you meant how jesus living in Heaven,but if you meant on earth so you shall ask what if Jesus did drink or eat could he died?? Jesus called himself the heaven bread and the living water and aslo said "For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.’" John 6:35-38
Jesus might be got tired and slept but he said to the people "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you REST" Matthew 11:28-30 no problem portraying Jesus as truly human and also as true Deity and when you dive or fly to space you have to follow the rules of Oxygen and pressure of these environments,Jesus was also fully human as he came from Mary,Christians understand this fact and when God spoke to Moses throught a tree how you think about that?
You still didnt answer my question fresh
DID Jesus eat. drink, sleep, get tired, go to the bathroom?
DOES God do any of the above?
Superman/sands/like it or not, you avoided my question. Are you telling me that Allah and the Angels pray to Muhammed?
You PROVE this to me without any doubts and I will happily give up my 'Im a Muslim' badge.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Jesus didn't say that. Some guy they called Matthew said Jesus said that, and christian scholars have already established that Matthew wasn't even a disciple of Jesus and he never heard Jesus say anything and there is no isnad from Matthew to Jesus to authentic it.
So just say some guy named Matthew said Jesus said that and you Christians are running around talking about what Jesus said and not one of those gusy: Mark, Matthew, Luke or John met Jesus! Not one!
LOL you will happliy say Muhammed said or did this or that when Bukhari or someone else tells you so! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: You still didnt answer my question fresh
DID Jesus eat. drink, sleep, get tired, go to the bathroom?
I answered you,Christian say God's word appeared in human's flesh,this flesh on earth eat,drink,tortured,pain....etc but the divine nature doesn't need to drink,eat,sleep...etc you can't hit the sun ray but you can feel it's warmth,when Christians follow Jesus they follow his divine nature and his divine words but when Jesus was acting as humans he had to do what humans do this was the requirement to be qualified for his redemption on behalf men, the story is deep and need if you intrested to read about the trinity and who is Jesus and why he came? but to label you as Muslim just to avoid reading and understand,it doesn't give you more value as we know that Muslims world is the third world.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [qb]You still didnt answer my question fresh
DID Jesus eat. drink, sleep, get tired, go to the bathroom?
I answered you,Christian say God's word appeared in human's flesh,this flesh on earth eat,drink,tortured,pain....etc but the divine nature don't need to drink,eat,sleep...etc you can't hit the sun ray but you can feel it's warmth,when Christians follow Jesus they follow his divine nature and his divine words but when Jesus was acting as humans he had to do what humans do this was the requirement to be qualified for his redemption on behalf men, the story is deep and need if you intrested to read about the trinity and who is Jesus and why he came?
Fresh, Jesus was a prophet sent by God as he himself said and you have also said here: "For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.’" John 6:35-38 It is clear that his will and Gods will are 2 different things and that Jesus is abiding by the Will of God. I have read about the trinity fresh, I know where it came from and I know that Jesus himself never said he was God or the Son of God. He was a prophet of God just like all the other prophets were but the difference was he was created by a WORD from God, that word was BE as God only needs to say the word BE and it IS. But this topic is not about Jesus it is about the prayer of the Muslims. I am not saying you cannot continue to discuss Jesus or Christianity here, you are welcome to do so, but the question I asked still has not been answered.
quote: but to label you as Muslim just to avoid reading and understand,it doesn't give you more value as we know that Muslims world is the third world.
I have never claimed to have 'more value' than anyone. There is no need to try to insult me personally as that wont really work with me and Muslims 'world' as you put it is THE world, there are muslims in every part of this Earth, so no need to try insulting me with 'third world' stuff. And why insult anyone in the third world anyway? that doesnt give you 'more value' either.
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I don't remember reading if he did those things but I know he wept. The New Testament doesn't say things like Jesus went to the bathroom. It is not a guide on how to wash or care for your flesh. Jesus is totally about serving God and your fellow man in spirit.
Jesus came to show how keeping the law has nothing to do with what is in a persons heart. How someone may look good on the outside and make long prayers but their hearts are evil. He made reference to the scribes and phariseas. Which were the pious of their day.
I will point out that during his life on this earth, Jesus served. He did not exalt himself or call himself the prophet of God or ask that others serve him. He even washed his disciples feet. He never forced himself or his beliefs on anyone. He did not have an army or ever use weapons. He walked and talked of peace. Yet through his love and peaceful spirit, multitudes followed him.
Can you imagine such a sight? No weapons drawn to persuade nor wealth acquired. Yet people heard of his good works and where ever he went horde's followed.
One instance he was walking with a crowd around him and he turn around and said "who touched me". I love the disciples response being astonished they said "thou see the multitude thronging the and you say, who touched me? Jesus replied "I perceive that virtue has gone out of me" A woman replied that if she just touch the hem of his garment she shall be whole. He told her to go in peace, her faith has made her whole.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Fresh, Jesus was a prophet sent by God as he himself said and you have also said here: "For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.’" John 6:35-38 It is clear that his will and Gods will are 2 different things and that Jesus is abiding by the Will of God. I have read about the trinity fresh, I know where it came from and I know that Jesus himself never said he was God or the Son of God. He was a prophet of God just like all the other prophets were but the difference was he was created by a WORD from God, that word was BE as God only needs to say the word BE and it IS.
And Jesus also said who has seen me has seen the father,I am in the Father, and the Father in Me and "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" "No one comes to the Father except through Me" ....etc don't neglect all these.
And to correct yourself,Jesus said I am son of God and blamed the jews who didn't believe him in John 10:36 Jesus asked the Jews "Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does
Regarding the word be and God needs to say the word BE and it IS,it means the WORD is exist first then God says to the word to be and this what mentioned in John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
And also he said "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."JOHN 8:23
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Hi of_gold, I know he wept and he also did other 'human' things because he was human, born of woman.
Jesus was a great prophet and Quran also speaks highly of him. All prophets were sent to different lands, times and people but all had essentially the same message.
Jesus never did fight, that is true, but he did have those that fought against him as all the prophets have had, their different ways in dealing with this were part of Gods message of course.
In this sense I can understand Jesus being mistaken for God as he was the message of Gods love and compassion in his life. But logic tells me that he was not God and the only way he could be called a 'son' of God is if we are ALL children of God, which doesnt mean God 'begat' any of us in the true sense of the word as we know it.
He was sent with a message FROM God, he gave that message and was the living example of that message.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Hi of_gold, I know he wept and he also did other 'human' things because he was human, born of woman.
Jesus was a great prophet and Quran also speaks highly of him. All prophets were sent to different lands, times and people but all had essentially the same message.
Jesus never did fight, that is true, but he did have those that fought against him as all the prophets have had, their different ways in dealing with this were part of Gods message of course.
In this sense I can understand Jesus being mistaken for God as he was the message of Gods love and compassion in his life. But logic tells me that he was not God and the only way he could be called a 'son' of God is if we are ALL children of God, which doesnt mean God 'begat' any of us in the true sense of the word as we know it.
He was sent with a message FROM God, he gave that message and was the living example of that message.
so why you don't follow the great prophet Jesus as you say he never did fight,why you follow someone had no roots and came from nowhere,is not Jesus at least more guarantee than Muhammed at least you can know where you are going at the end instead of being Muslima and don't sure your place in heaven at least Jesus is living now and said He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live while Muhammed's tomp is in Madina,Muslims are wishing to him God's merciful everyday 5 times for what he had done in his life.when Muslim will wake up from this coma? Read what Muhammed Abdullah said about himself http://hadith.al-islam.comPosts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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I agree that Jesus was/is the living example of Gods message. That's why I believe his teachings, because I see them as truth.
I see your point about beget in the true sense of the word if you mean by sexual intercourse. The definition of beget is not intercourse. It is: make children; bring into existence; bring forth or yield.
I have no problem with seeing us as children of God. We were created in his likeness. Slaves are not in the likeness of their owner but children are. Even though they are completely different individuals and can have a totally different appearance than their parents.
I have also struggled with is Jesus God in the almighty sense, so I can understand what you mean about what logic tells you. But then again, is God logical?
What I have never been able to deny or question about Jesus are his works, his life example, his teachings. His life is above reproach. How many men do you know who have lived a life like that? I totally believe that he knew/knows God.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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