posted
Why would this be a ''Nubian'', The land south of Kemet whas never being conuered by the Persians, So why is this figure called a ''Nubian'' is it not an Kemetian..
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quote:Originally posted by MONTU: Why would this be a ''Nubian'', The land south of Kemet whas never being conuered by the Persians, So why is this figure called a ''Nubian'' is it not an Kemetian..
This is a great question. Hopefully someone will do a paper on this topic.
The literature suggest that this man was a Kushite, as you know most researchers like to call them Nubians, eventhough the Kushites (Meroites) and Nubians (Nuba) were usually enemies.
Here is an interesting piece on this topic you may like to read.
(Lifted from Realhistoryww.com) On the great stairways of Apadana, are relief's of Persian, Median, and Elamite officials. Additionally, there are twenty three scenes, separated by cypress trees, depicting representatives from the twenty three vassal kingdoms of the empire. They are being led by a Persian or Mede, as they come to made offerings to the king at the festival of the vernal equinox. The various delegates are shown in great detail, giving insight into the costume and equipment of the various peoples of the Persian Empire in the 5th century B.C. But, there is NO inscription to identify who these people are!
About eight miles northeast of Persepolis, on the opposite side of the Pulvar River, rises a cliff-face in a place called Naqsh-e Rostam. Four tombs are carved out of the cliff-face, the first and oldest is the tomb of Darius I, which is identified by inscriptions. The other three tombs have no inscriptions to identify them, but are believed to be the tombs of Achaemenian kings Xerxes I, Artaxerxes I, and Darius II.
The facade of Darius' tomb is divided into three registers: the bottom register is blank, the middle is sculptured to imitate the front of a palace, and the top shows the monarch at worship on the top of a piece of furniture that is supported by representatives of the nations in his realm.
This top register is adorned with a framed relief panel showing a dais supported by thirty representatives of the nations of the empire. These representatives are identified by cuneiform captions. They are arranged in two tiers of fourteen people with raised arms between the legs, and two people on the outside supporting the feet of the dais.
It is from examination of THIS relief panel, that researchers must infer the identity of the people on Apadana's stairways. Needless to say, the damage done to this cliff-face by two thousand years of weathering, makes inferred identification a very precarious proposition. Additionally, there are thirty peoples represented on the cliff-face, but only twenty-three on the stairway. There is no way to know that the correct twenty-three were extracted.
Another problem is that different names have been assigned to these people by some researchers: there was no place or people called Ethiopians at that time. Ethiopia was a Greek term denoting Africans. Likewise, there was no Libya, this was a Greek term for Africa - and certainly the people identified as Libyans, bear no resemblance to the inhabitants of north Africa at that time - the Berbers.
Then there is Syria, here again, there was no such place. Syria is a Greek term denoting the area north of Arabia and south of Anatolia. At the time of the Persians, this area would have included Hebrews, Canaanite's, Phoenicians, Aramites, Assyrians, and who knows who else. Likewise Indians, who would they have been, Arian's, Dravidians, the mix or who?
As with all things ancient, some people seem bent on distortion. So here we will use the list of vassal kingdoms of the Persian Empire, contained in Darius's Behistun inscription. We can only hope that the translation is accurate and pristine.
Darius the King says: These are the countries which came to me by the favor of Ahuramazda. I was king of them: Persia, Elam, Babylonia, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt, (those) who are beside the sea, Sardis, Ionia, Media, Armenia, Cappadocia, Parthia, Drangiana, Aria, Chorasmia, Bactria, Sogdiana, Gandara, Scythia, Sattagydia, Arachosia, Maka.
Upon quick examination, it becomes apparent that Darius' list and the identifications provided by the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, (the sites original researchers), do not exactly dovetail. Then there is the unfortunate truth that researchers do not always have an agenda that is purely scientific. Consequently, the identifications provided below for the figures on Apadana's stairways are to be taken with a very large bit of skepticism.
Egypt – Those who are beside the Sea (normally titled Ethiopians). It is commonly assumed that this is the depiction of those people - perhaps correctly. Since no Sea is specified, it could be North Africa (the Mediterranean Sea), Eastern Africa (the Red Sea), Canaan (the eastern end of the Mediterranean), or even the Colchis who inhabited the eastern end of the (Black Sea), south of the Caucasus Mountains. Of course this all assumes that the translation is correct, and that the word "Egypt" is part of the “Those who are beside the Sea” sentence.
Earth to Elysian Fields Emathia to Eretria Erginos to Eulimene Eumaios to Exomis
Ethiopians Aithiopians The “long lived” race who lived to the south of Egypt; they are mentioned several times by the historian, Herodotus, and the poet, Homer, but the exact location of their homeland is not made clear.
Herodotus comments that the Ethiopians became more like the Egyptians after the two hundred and forty thousand Egyptian soldiers garrisoned at Elephantine deserted their posts and were given asylum by an Ethiopian king and were assimilated into the native population; Herodotus also reports that of the three hundred and thirty kings of Egypt, one was a woman and eighteen were Ethiopians, the rest were Egyptian men.
During the reign of the blind Egyptian king, Anysis, an Ethiopian named Sabakos (Sabacos) invaded Egypt and ruled for fifty years; Sabakos left Egypt of his own free will because of an oracle and a dream; the oracle said he would rule Egypt for only fifty years and his dream implied that if he did not leave Egypt on the fiftieth year, he would be punished by gods and men; the legacy of Sabakos was that, while king of Egypt, he sentenced criminals to work on civic improvement projects, primarily the building of embankments around cities to protect them from the flooding Nile River.
In the Histories, Herodotus tells how the Persian ruler, Kambyses (Cambyses) sent spies to Ethiopia to see if the Table of the Sun actually existed; the Table of the Sun was a meadow where the Ethiopians in authority would nightly bring food and leave it for anyone who wanted it; the spies that Kambyses sent were Egyptians called Fish-Eaters from Elephantine, a city on the Upper Nile, i.e. the southern portion of the river.
The Ethiopians were reputed to be some of the tallest and most beautiful people in the world and Kambyses was aware that the Ethiopian kings were chosen only from the tallest and proportionally strongest men of their race; he sent beautiful gifts because he wanted to impress them with his generosity and lull them into thinking he was potentially their friend; when the Fish-Eaters gave the Ethiopian king Kambyses’ gifts, the king rejected the cloth, the myrrh and the gold but pronounced the wine to be good; he explained that the Ethiopians only ate boiled meat and drank only milk and that they lived at least one hundred and twenty years; they also bathed in a spring whose water smelled of violets and was so light that nothing would float on the water.
Seeing through Kambyses’ feigned friendship, the Ethiopian king gave the Fish-Eaters an enormous bow and told them that the Persians should not consider attacking them until they could string the bow and to be thankful that the Ethiopians were not greedy and aggressive because, if that was so, the Persians would lose their lives and land to the superior men of Ethiopia.
Herodotus also mentions another aspect of the Ethiopians which would make it seem that he regarded most of the non-Egyptian Africans to be “Ethiopians;” in describing the geography of Libya, Herodotus tells of the cave-dwelling Ethiopians; they ate snakes, lizards and other reptiles; they were fleet of foot and had voices like the squeaking of bats; another tribe of Libyans, the Garamantes, hunted the Ethiopians with four-horse teams but whether the Garamantes hunted the cave-dwellers for sport or food is not clear.
Herodotus also mentions Ethiopians from Asia and their tribute to the Persian Empire; the Asian Ethiopians who fought in the army of Xerxes had straight hair and were teamed with the Indians whereas the Ethiopians who were teamed with the Arabians were from Africa and had wooly hair; other than their hair and speech, the Asian and African Ethiopians seemed to be of the same race; the nation of Cyprus had Ethiopians in its population.
Histories, book 2, chapters 11, 29, 30, 100, 104, 110, 137, 139 and 161; book 3, chapters 17-26 and 94; book 4, chapter 183; book 7, chapter 70 and 90 Return to Ethiopians in the Dictionary How to Cite this Page Cut and paste the following text for use in a paper or electronic document report.
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Stewart, Michael. "People, Places & Things: Ethiopians", <i>Greek Mythology: From the Iliad to the Fall of the Last Tyrant</i>. <a href="http://messagenet.com/myths/ppt/Ethiopians_1.html">http://messagenet.com/myths/ppt/Ethiopians_1.html</a>
Return to Ethiopians in the Dictionary Earth to Elysian Fields Emathia to Eretria Erginos to Eulimene Eumaios to Exomis
Original content Copyright 1996–2005 Michael Stewart. All Rights Reserved. Website design and structure Copyright 2005 Michael Wiik Site development and maintenance by Messagenet Communications Research
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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This is confusing. If there were no Ethiopia, Libya, nor Syria, then neither was there any Hebrews, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Aramites, Assyrians, Indians, Arians, or Dravidians -- or Persia, Elam, Babylonia, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt, Media, Armenia, Cappadocia, Parthia, Drangiana, Aria, Chorasmia, Bactria, Sogdiana, Gandara, Scythia, Sattagydia, Arachosia, or Maka for that matter either as these terms were also most probably unknown to the people to whom they are applied.
Ethiopia has been traced to Etaosh(sp?) or Itiopi Libya has been traced to Lebu/Libu Syria has been traced to Ssur
What makes for the other names as more righteous "at that time" than those three mentioned above?
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Another problem is that different names have been assigned to these people by some researchers: there was no place or people called Ethiopians at that time. Ethiopia was a Greek term denoting Africans. Likewise, there was no Libya, this was a Greek term for Africa - and certainly the people identified as Libyans, bear no resemblance to the inhabitants of north Africa at that time - the Berbers.
Then there is Syria, here again, there was no such place. Syria is a Greek term denoting the area north of Arabia and south of Anatolia. At the time of the Persians, this area would have included Hebrews, Canaanite's, Phoenicians, Aramites, Assyrians, and who knows who else. Likewise Indians, who would they have been, Arian's, Dravidians, the mix or who?
Darius the King says: These are the countries which came to me by the favor of Ahuramazda. I was king of them: Persia, Elam, Babylonia, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt, (those) who are beside the sea, Sardis, Ionia, Media, Armenia, Cappadocia, Parthia, Drangiana, Aria, Chorasmia, Bactria, Sogdiana, Gandara, Scythia, Sattagydia, Arachosia, Maka.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Quote from above post: There was no place or people called Ethiopians at that time. Ethiopia was a Greek term denoting Africans. Likewise, there was no Libya, this was a Greek term for Africa - and certainly the people identified as Libyans, bear no resemblance to the inhabitants of north Africa at that time - the Berbers.
What makes those terms "Less Righteous" is their lack of specificity . If you would care to look-up the other names, you will find it quite easy to know who they were. After doing that, then look up Ethiopia, Libya, Syria. When you have completed this test, then I am sure that you will understand.
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Done that a long time ago as my sourcing of the three terms should tell you. I don't understand so please explain one by one each of the other terms' etymologies. Is any of them the authentic word used by the people so named? Highly doubt it.
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When Herodotus was speaking of the Long Living Peoples of Ethiopia who were Tall and Handsome U know what comes into my Mind the Jenub the Tallest Sudanese and they are from South of Khartoum Maybe they Lived in the North in the Past. When Herodotus speaks of Tall Ethiopians i dont think he was talking about the Nubians of Today more like the Southern Sudanese peoples i think they use to live in Southern Egypt before because Nubians in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan dont get tall like Jenub in middle Sudan
Posts: 68 | Registered: Nov 2007
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^ I don't think you can make any accurate identification of a people in ancient times based on their height alone. The height of a people can change in any given time with some growing shorter while others growing taller depending on environmental factors such as nutrition.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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My question whas simply, The Persian never conquered the land south of Egypt, So why would a nubian breing tribute to a Persian king while it whas the Egyptian who where conquered by the Persian..
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quote:Originally posted by MONTU: My question whas simply, The Persian never conquered the land south of Egypt, So why would a nubian breing tribute to a Persian king while it whas the Egyptian who where conquered by the Persian..
posted
i read lower nubia was conquered by persia for a short time.rememeber persia invaded kush but were stoped at lower nubia only in the north and they could not conqurer all of kush.they failed but they held the northern part of lower nubia only.later persia lost the northern part too.
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quote:Originally posted by MONTU: My question whas simply, The Persian never conquered the land south of Egypt, So why would a nubian breing tribute to a Persian king while it whas the Egyptian who where conquered by the Persian..
Well you can still bring tribute as a diplomatic gesture of goodwill.
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MONTU – I think that we have been victimized by carelessness by either Herodotus or the translator Mr. George Rawlinson. The word Ethiopian is used indiscriminately by one of them, and that has been carried forward by all others, and that is the source of the problem.
The Histories of Herodotus - The Persian Wars
1) In Book 2 – EUTERPE [2.137] We read: He was succeeded on the throne, they said, by a blind man, a native of Anysis, whose own name also was Anysis. Under him Egypt was invaded by a vast army of Ethiopians, led by Sabacos, their king.
Here the reference is obviously to Nubia.
2) In Book 3 – THALIA [3.17] We read: After this Cambyses took counsel with himself, and planned three expeditions. One was against the Carthaginians, another against the Ammonians, and a third against the long-lived Ethiopians, who dwelt in that part of Libya which borders upon the southern sea.
Here he seems to be talking about a mysterious people who live by the sea. Two things here; the Nubians were not strange to the Persians, and the Nubian capitol Meroe is on the Nile river, why would there be a reference to the red Sea?
3) Book 3 – THALIA [3.19] We read: When Cambyses had made up his mind that the spies should go, he forthwith sent to Elephantine for certain of the Icthyophagi who were acquainted with the Ethiopian tongue; and, while they were being fetched, issued orders to his fleet to sail against Carthage.
Definition: Icthyophagi Now there was, far up the Nile, near the cataracts, at a place where the river widens and forms a sort of bay, a large and fertile island called Elephantine, which was inhabited by a half-savage tribe called the Icthyophagi. They lived mainly by fishing on the river, and, consequently, they had many boats, and were accustomed to make long excursions up and down the stream. Their name was, in fact, derived from their occupation. It was a Greek word, and might be translated "Fishermen."
If Nubians were the people in question; any Egyptian would know their language.
4) Book 3 – THALIA [3.21] We read: The Icthyophagi on reaching this people, delivered the gifts to the king of the country, and spoke as follows:- "Cambyses, king of the Persians, anxious to become thy ally and sworn friend, has sent us to hold converse with thee, and to bear thee the gifts thou seest, which are the things wherein he himself delights the most." Hereon the Ethiopian, who knew they came as spies, made answer:- "The king of the Persians sent you not with these gifts because he much desired to become my sworn friend - nor is the account which ye give of yourselves true, for ye are come to search out my kingdom. Also your king is not a just man - for were he so, he had not coveted a land which is not his own, nor brought slavery on a people who never did him any wrong. Bear him this bow, and say - 'The king of the Ethiops thus advises the king of the Persians when the Persians can pull a bow of this strength thus easily, then let him come with an army of superior strength against the long-lived Ethiopians - till then, let him thank the gods that they have not put it into the heart of the sons of the Ethiops to covet countries which do not belong to them.'
These people did not invade other countries: the Nubians obviously did.
5) Book 3 – THALIA [3.25] We read: When the spies had now seen everything, they returned back to Egypt, and made report to Cambyses, who was stirred to anger by their words. Forthwith he set out on his march against the Ethiopians without having made any provision for the sustenance of his army, or reflected that he was about to wage war in the uttermost parts of the earth.
Uttermost parts of the earth? That can’t be Nubia, Meroe would be closer than the north coast of Egypt.
Like a senseless madman as he was, no sooner did he receive the report of the Icthyophagi than he began his march, bidding the Greeks who were with his army remain where they were, and taking only his land force with him. At Thebes, which he passed through on his way, he detached from his main body some fifty thousand men, and sent them against the Ammonians with orders to carry the people into captivity, and burn the oracle of Jupiter. Meanwhile he himself went on with the rest of his forces against the Ethiopians. Before, however, he had accomplished one-fifth part of the distance, all that the army had in the way of provisions failed; whereupon the men began to eat the sumpter beasts, which shortly failed also.
Here we are to believe that Cambyses was a Fool; I doubt that. No mention is made of the timeframe, but if they ran out of food after covering only 20% of the distance, then it was a long journey indeed.
If then, at this time, Cambyses, seeing what was happening, had confessed himself in the wrong, and led his army back, he would have done the wisest thing that he could after the mistake made at the outset; but as it was, he took no manner of heed, but continued to march forwards. So long as the earth gave them anything, the soldiers sustained life by eating the grass and herbs; but when they came to the bare sand, a portion of them were guilty of a horrid deed: by tens they cast lots for a man, who was slain to be the food of the others. When Cambyses heard of these doings, alarmed at such cannibalism, he gave up his attack on Ethiopia, and retreating by the way he had come, reached Thebes, after he had lost vast numbers of his soldiers. From Thebes he marched down to Memphis, where he dismissed the Greeks, allowing them to sail home. And so ended the expedition against Ethiopia.
My own thinking is that Cambyses was attempting to conquer “Punt” which was on the Red Sea in modern Ethiopia or Eritrea or perhaps even Somalia. Punt was well known for it’s exotic goods and wealth. As to the Persian relief, it could be anybody.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I say the topic question is a good one. What constitutes the man in the artwork to be 'Nubian'. What evidence is there to suggest he was African in the first place?
By the way, speaking of blacks in Persia...
LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Following up; It could be that the reference "Egypt, those by the Sea" made by Darius; referrers to Berbers, and the Sea is the Mediterranean. Cambyses was attacking Carthage, so perhaps he had already taken (modern Libya) the land in between. The Berbers could legitimately be considered Egyptians, they were completely Egyptianized and had ruled Egypt many times. So perhaps the relief is of a Berber.
Djehuti: By the way, speaking of blacks in Persia...LOL
What do you mean by that?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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^ I just pointed that silly scene of Leonidas kicking a black Persian emmisary down a well. We made fun of that movie alot already. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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