This thread is not in contradiction to Dr. Winter's recent thread speaking of worldwide African civilizations with a shared "cultural toolkit" from 3000 BC.
Rather, it looks at cultures that preceded them and will overlap and complement the period he addresses.
. .
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Thanks for the insight, Dr. Winters. I'd agree. In a way, the Anu seem to be the ancient world's version of the innovative, astute Ibo; and their mark is everywhere.
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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Very interesting stuff I have to say and testament to the once world wide prominence of the civilization of black Africans.
The neolithic groups of Africans found in the Balkans, Moldavia, Malta, etc. of so called Chamblandes and Linear BandKeramic (Danubian) cultures have always been noted as originally having African affinities, although it has been covered up with terms like "gracile Mediterranean" or "brown race".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I am not familiar with the literature that the Chamblandes and Linear Band Keramic (Danubian) cultures had originally been known for their African affinities.
Related to this, I believe that the Bronze Age Western and Central European tradition of cremation and the storage of ashes in an urn has been traced from North Africa, maybe even from Carthage.
Your information is also interesting.
Can you share more about that and perhaps suggest some writings?
Marc
.
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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Population continuity, demic diffusion and Neolithic origins in central-southern Germany: the evidence from body proportions.
Gallagher et al.
Homo. 2009;60(2):95-126. Epub 2009 Mar 4.
"The transition to agro-pastoralism in central Europe has been framed within a dichotomy of "regional continuity" versus exogenous "demic diffusion". While substantial genetic support exists for a model of demographic diffusion from an ancestral source in the Near East, archaeological data furnish weak support for the "wave of advance" model. Nevertheless, archaeological evidence attests the widespread introduction of an exogenous "package" comprising ceramics, cereals, pulses and domesticated animals to central Europe at 5600calBCE. Body proportions are under strong climatic selection and evince remarkable stability within regional lineages. As such, they offer a viable and robust alternative to cranio-facial data in assessing hypothesised continuity and replacement with the transition to agro-pastoralism in central Europe. Humero-clavicular, brachial and crural indices in a large sample (n=75) of Linienbandkeramik (LBK), Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age specimens from the middle Elbe-Saale-Werra valley (MESV) were compared with Eurasian and African terminal Pleistocene, European Mesolithic and geographically disparate recent human specimens. Mesolithic Europeans display considerable variation in humero-clavicular and brachial indices yet none approach the extreme "hyper-polar" morphology of LBK humans from the MESV. In contrast, Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age peoples display elongated brachial and crural indices reminiscent of terminal Pleistocene and "tropically adapted" recent humans. These marked morphological changes likely reflect exogenous immigration during the terminal Fourth millennium cal BC. Population expansion and diffusion is a function of increased mobility and settlement dispersal concomitant with significant technological and subsistence changes in later Neolithic societies during the late fourth millennium cal BCE."
"The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to sub-Saharan Africa."
[...]
"The assessment of prehistoric and recent human craniofacial dimensions supports the picture documented by genetics that the extension of Neolithic agriculture from the Near East westward to Europe and across North Africa was accomplished by a process of demic diffusion (11–15). If the Late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, then there was clearly a SubSaharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element. At the same time, the failure of the Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in central and northern Europe to tie to the modern inhabitants supports the suggestion that, while a farming mode of subsistence was spread westward and also north to Crimea and east to Mongolia by actual movement of communities of farmers, the indigenous foragers in each of those areas ultimately absorbed both the agricultural subsistence strategy and also the people who had brought it. The interbreeding of the incoming Neolithic people with the in situ foragers diluted the Sub-Saharan traces that may have come with the Neolithic spread so that no discoverable element of that remained. This picture of a mixture between the incoming farmers and the in situ foragers had originally been supported by the archaeological record alone (6, 9, 33, 34, 48, 49), but this view is now reinforced by the analysis of the skeletal morphology of the people of those areas where prehistoric and recent remains can be metrically compared."
- Brace et al 2005
[i]“one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians"
- Larry Angel
This one's pretty thourough:
F. X. Ricaut M. Waelkens Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
Abstract:
"Since the beginning of the Holocene, the Anatolian region has been a crossroads for populations and civilizations from Europe, Asia, and the Near to Middle East, with increasing interactions since the Bronze Age. In this context, we examine cranial discrete traits from a Byzantine population from southwest Turkey, excavated at the archeological site of Sagalassos; the site displays human occupation since the 12th millennium b.p. To investigate the biological history of this population, we analyzed the frequency distribution of 17 cranial discrete traits from Sagalassos and 27 Eurasian and African populations. Ward’s clustering procedure and multidimensional scaling analyses of the standardized mean measure of divergence (MMDst), based on trait frequencies, were used to represent the biological affinity between populations. Our results, considered within a large interpretive framework that takes into account the idea that populations are dynamic entities affected by various influences through time and space, revealed different strata of the Sagalassos biological history. Indeed, beyond an expected biological affinity of the Sagalassos population with eastern Mediterranean populations, we also detected affinities with sub-Saharan and northern and central European populations. We hypothesize that these affinity patterns in the Sagalassos biological package are the traces of the major migratory events that affected southwest Anatolia over the last millennia, as suggested from biological, archeological, and historical data."
"Keeping in mind these three elements, if we consider the affinity of the Sagalassos population with the sub-Saharan populations from Gabon and Somalia, a recent direct contact between these populations and regions probably can be excluded because they are seperated by significant geographic distances. However, indirect contacts through geographically intermediary populations carrying "sub-Saharan" biological features in the late Pleistocene-Holocene period are discussion points."
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Saharan genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2004) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey(E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinnioglu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinnioglu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintanna-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic. Indeed, the rare and incomplete 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semal 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile Valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980)-show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic-early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations."
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004)following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
"Following the numerous interactions among eastern Mediterranean and Levantine populations and regions, caused by the introduction of agriculture from the Levant into Anatolia and southeastern Europe, there was, beginning in the Bronze Age, a period of increasing interactions in the eastern Mediterranean, mainly during the Greek, Roman, and Islamic periods. These interactions resulted in the development of trading networks, military campaigns, and settler colonization. Major changes took place during this period, which may have accentuated or diluted the sub-Saharan components of earlier Anatolian populations. The second option seems more likely, because even though the population from Sagalassos territory was interacting with northeastern African and Levantine populations [trade relationships with Egypt (Arndt et al. 2003), involvement of thousands of mercanries from Pisidia (Sagalassos region) in the war around 300 B.C. between the Ptolemaic kingdom (centered in Egypt) and the Seleucid kingdom (Syria/Mesopotamia/Anatolia), etc.], the major cultural and population interactions involving the Anatolian populations since the Bronze Age occured with the Mediterranean populations form southeastern Europe, as suggested from historical and genetic data."
"Consequently, one may hypothesize as the most parsimonious explanation that sub-Saharan biological elements were introduced into the Anatolian populations after the Neolithic spread and have been preserved since this time, at least until the 11th-13th century A.D., in the population living in the Sagalassos territory of southwestern Anatolia. This scenario implies that the affinity between Sagalassos and the two sub-Saharan populations (Gabon and Somalia) is more likely due to the sharing of a common ancestor and that the major changes and increasing interactions in the eastern Mediterranean beginning in the Bronze Age did not erase some of the sub-Saharan elements carried by Anatolian populations, as shown by genetic data and the morphologivcal features of our southwestern Anatolian sample."
"In this context it is likely that Bronze Age events may have facilitated the southward diffusion of populations carrying northern and central European biological elements and may have contributed to some degree of admixture between northern and central Europeans and Anatolians, and on a larger scale, between northeastern Mediterraneans and Anatolians. Even if we do not know which populations were involved, historical and archaeological data suggest, for instance, the 2nd millenium B.C. Minoan and later Mycenaean occupation of Anatolian coast, the arrival in Anatolia in the early 1st millennium B.C. of the Phrygians coming from Thrace, and later the arrival of settlers from Macedonia in Pisidia and in the Sagalassos territory (under Seleucid rule). The coming of the Dorians from Northern Greece and central Europe (the Dorians are claimed to be one of the main groups at the origin of the ancient Greeks) may have also brought northern and central European biological elements into southern populations. Indeed, the Dorians may have migrated southward to the Peloponnese, across the southern Aegean and Create, and later reached Asia Minor."
I am not familiar with the literature that the Chamblandes and Linear Band Keramic (Danubian) cultures had originally been known for their African affinities.
Related to this, I believe that the Bronze Age Western and Central European tradition of cremation and the storage of ashes in an urn has been traced from North Africa, maybe even from Carthage.
Your information is also interesting.
Can you share more about that and perhaps suggest some writings?
Marc
.
Hi Marc, Well I first learned about these populations by reading Diop and early physical anthropological writings by peoples like Sergi, G. Elliot Smith and pseudoanthropologist/racists like Coon. The latter who says things in his book, Races of Europe, like there "seems to be a perceptible negroid element in the Chamblandes groups, which accentuates their African relationship." and later "these chamblandes people resemble the smaller groups of predynastic Egyptians very closely, but are even closer to Muge."
They were an "excellent example of the small Mediterranean race".
I think one of Diop's books Civilization or Barbarism and one of Dr. Van Sertima's volumes of the Journal of African Civilizations "African Presence in Early Europe" goes into the connection of some of these smaller neolithic people in Europe with the culture of "the Bushmen" as discovered by European archeologists.
Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man published 1958 I think provided Diop his info.
Linear Band Keramic (Danubian) Chamblandes, Long Barrow are all code names for black AFrican looking Neolithic and Mesolithic populations in Europe that Europeans liked to classify into the "Mediterranean" or "brown" race category.
You can find more recent books on archeology in Europe as by Gimbutas but they will of course nowadays not make distinctions in these populations or denote the Africanness of most of the early Mesolithic and Neolithic populations still prefering to blur the obvious.
The best thing to do is to keep up with studies like those posted by Whatbox above. Zarahan's site NileValleyPeoples is also a great source if not the best source of these more recent genetically based studies and articles. They will off and on mention the tropical aspects or traits of these early populations.
I am glad you and MIKE have posted some of the sculptures of these early blacks who were swamped by later brachycephalic and esocranic non black peoples as proven by both phsyical anthropology genetic studies of cranial traits and dna genetic studies.
My suggestion however is that it is always good to post the sources from which they have come from and the time periods. Or else someone can always come back and say they were not early Europeans or that they are bogus.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Rabid Afrocentrism and perhaps Afrocentrism in this day and age are harmfull to legitimate investigations of African historiography and anthropology. We need to be carefull and distinguish between holocene **African** migrations and holocene **Eurasian** populations which retained African phenetic characteristics since OOA.
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Evergreen Writes:
Rabid Afrocentrism and perhaps Afrocentrism in this day and age are harmfull to legitimate investigations of African historiography and anthropology. We need to be carefull and distinguish between holocene **African** migrations and holocene **Eurasian** populations which retained African phenetic characteristics since OOA.
Point well taken. But what specifics do you proscribe?
i.e. Of the half dozen or so Black cultures in Eastern Europe circa 5,000 B.C. Which were derived from the original Africans who entered through Gibraltar. Which were Africans who migrated up from the south. And which were Asians who migrated from the East?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Very interesting stuff I have to say and testament to the once world wide prominence of the civilization of black Africans.
The neolithic groups of Africans found in the Balkans, Moldavia, Malta, etc. of so called Chamblandes and Linear BandKeramic (Danubian) cultures have always been noted as originally having African affinities, although it has been covered up with terms like "gracile Mediterranean" or "brown race". [/QB]
There were called the Moor-Lachs, the Nigri-Latinis, the Iberians or Ibero-Maurisians, the Weallas, and the Romanis.
Place names like Monte-Negro in Serbia bear testament to this once owners of central Europe.
They as you rightly testified were in Europe since the Pleistocene right up to the Neolithic.
Well I say, evidence demonstrates that they were also there in the times of the Greeks, (note the Minoans and the Creteans and the Mycenians); they were there durning the Roman times as (Etruscans, Phoenicians, Sicilians, Iberians, Latinis-Nigris, and Maurs from Alkebulan).
They were the original moors of Europe, the black Europeans, of whom so little is heard amidst such intense skepticism and hostility. We are telling their story...day by day.
The European Moors, eventhough swamped by so-called white immgration, they were there right up to the medieval ages as Marc and Mike have shown many times. They were also there right up to the French revolution as Egmond has ably proven on many occassions.
I recall we had this conversation once in my thread: Was Rome White?. You must have been in your more skeptical mood. I can see you have moved your position since our last conversation.
Its all good. We live and learn.
Lion! Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Evergreen Writes:
Rabid Afrocentrism and perhaps Afrocentrism in this day and age are harmfull to legitimate investigations of African historiography and anthropology. We need to be carefull and distinguish between holocene **African** migrations and holocene **Eurasian** populations which retained African phenetic characteristics since OOA.
I've never associated myself with such groups.
You refer in part (thru your general statement) to Brace's study though?
You know what? I recall Brace in that very study writing something to the effect of this upper paleolithic French and another sample perhaps don't resemble the modern inhabitants but resemble the Natufians who resemble recent SSAfricans, but the affinity is very remote. There could indeed be a murky picture painted by studies of this nature but the "trouble" is in this case we have plenty of supportive genetic evidence of African and Afrocan mixed migrants to SE Europe in the holocene and bronze age. What's more is this confirms what alot of Greco-Roman civilization tales and records indicate. Also, when we have a bright study which reveals transition in an area to a morphology adapting to colder whether than suddenly morphologies with traits reminiscent of folks mroe tropically adapted ....
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Evergreen Writes:
Rabid Afrocentrism and perhaps Afrocentrism in this day and age are harmfull to legitimate investigations of African historiography and anthropology. We need to be carefull and distinguish between holocene **African** migrations and holocene **Eurasian** populations which retained African phenetic characteristics since OOA.
Why is it harmful? Please explain.
Afrocentrism is based on the ancient model of history advocated by the Greeks. The ancient model of history maintained that there were two Kushes one in Africa and the other Asia--both founded by the African Kushites. They also document recent migrations of Africans to Europe, e.g. , Pelasgians.
Adherence to the ancient model makes it clear that civilizations built since 5-6kya were created by Africans who were not related to the OOA event.Since Afrocentrists accept this model we have never been confused about what Blacks built this or that civilization.
There were no movements of "Eurasian blacks" during the Holocene that I know of.The only migration of Blacks during the Holocene came from Africa as the pygmy people carrying the E haplogroup expanded into Asia, the Americas and Europe by land and sea. Please list Black Eurasian if they are known to you.
All movements of non-Black Eurasians are historical. There is no mystery in their migrations out of Anatolia into Europe, the Mid-East and South Asia.
The Eurasian migrations are not prehistoric. We know the present-day Syrians 'white Arabs' go back to the hill people of Mesopotamia called Gutians.
The Indo-Europeans first appear in history around 1600BC in Anatolia as the Hittites.By 1300 BC the Indo-Europeans attacked the Levant and Egypt. The Persians exiled Greeks in Central Asia and Pakistan by 400BC. They are reforced by Alexander, and the Greeks influence the Indian languages and we see the rise of the Indo-European languages.
Following the ancient model Europeans only arrive in Greece with the Ionians. The Turks only enter Central Asia and Anatolia in the past 2000 years.
As a result, I don't understand why you see Afrocentrists as preventing "legitimate" African historical research. Please explain what is "legitimate" vs illegitimate research.
posted
Clyde, Evergreen was just talking out of his butt, in hopes of casting doubt on the things Afrocentric researchers are uncovering. You will note that when asked for specifics, the answer was silence.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: [QUOTE] Of the half dozen or so Black cultures in Eastern Europe circa 5,000 B.C. Which were derived from the original Africans who entered through Gibraltar. Which were Africans who migrated up from the south. And which were Asians who migrated from the East?
Evergreen Writes: There is both cranial facial and osteological evidence that the Iberian Bell-Beaker culture shared traits with recent Africans. But so did the Mesolithic Muge culture. We need to produce carefully detailed analysis to distinguish between holocene migrations and in-situ evolution and trait retention.
Evergreen Posts:
PROFESSOR H. J. FLEIJRE.--
A Comparison of an Ancient and a Surviving Type of Man.--
Man - 1919
Geographical study of anthropological types in modern populations has revealed nests of persons resembling in maniy ways types of pre-Neolithic periods, especially Combe Capelle and closely related examples. A. number of skulls from long barrows in Britain, from certain French dolmens (Bas Moulins and Billancourt) and from Swedish megalithic graves show a grading from Combe Capelle characters to Nordic. Modern representatives of these characters have been found in Somaliland, Abyssinia, and Egypt, Sardinia, Tras-os-Montes, Portugal, North Italy, the Rhone Valley, Austria, Runmania, Russia, and India. About twenty-four cases have been studied in the vicinity of Plynlymon and in remoter parts of S.W. Wales, all men of pure local descent. There is thus a strong presumption that we have a persistent type. Most of the individuals noticed in Wales have the lhair rather straight with low orbital index and prominence of the zygomatics. But rare individuals with marked prognathism have the hair very curly, and suggest a "negroid character." The latter character is emphasized by Giiuffrida-Ruggeri in the name "Eurafrican type."Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Evergreen quote: But rare individuals with marked prognathism have the hair very curly, and suggest a "negroid character." The latter character is emphasized by Giiuffrida-Ruggeri in the name "Eurafrican type."
Evergreen - the fact that you would quote a person who equates prognathism with Black, means that you are a fool. To farther compound it by knowingly quoting some White ass-hole racist from 1919 just digs a deeper hole for you.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
^^ We all know you are a white guy pretending to be a fringe Afrocentrist to discredit legitimate inquries into African history. We're on to you.
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Yea, you caught me. But you will still have to stop trying to slip nonsense into serious conversations.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Evergreen Writes:
Rabid Afrocentrism and perhaps Afrocentrism in this day and age are harmfull to legitimate investigations of African historiography and anthropology. We need to be carefull and distinguish between holocene **African** migrations and holocene **Eurasian** populations which retained African phenetic characteristics since OOA.
What Clyde and Marc are doing is psuedoscience, not Afrocentrism
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Hey Charlie, Wow that came out of nowhere. Is there anything in particular that you have in mind, or is it that you just don't like Black guys getting into the White mans business?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Indo-Europeans first appear in history around 1600BC in Anatolia as the Hittites.By 1300 BC the Indo-Europeans attacked the Levant and Egypt.
Clyde, how could a group first appearing in history in a 300 year period acquire the military technology and means to take on and conquer nations that had been around for thousands of years. You paint the portrait of some miracle supermen actually contributing to
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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[It was asked] how could a group first appearing in history in a 300 year period acquire the military technology and means to take on and conquer nations that had been around for thousands of years. You paint the portrait of some miracle supermen.
[I'd like to attempt an answer] Firstly and initially, many African tribal groups and those in towns and small cities were hospitable to the newcomers as they often were with one another. Stories of coarse behavior of Africans to one another abound but so too does warm hospitality - especially historically and before guns were introduced.
So, initially, whites were welcomed but were contemptuous of this trust and generosity thinking it a human defect and took advantage of it and this played into the following:
Secondly, most of the world before Christ was peopled by negritos whereas whites were relatively towering, Nordic-type peoples.
So, when hostilities ensured, negritos didn't fare well. Towering Goliath before the negrito Hebrew I think captures the reality (see C2 where Celts of Bohemia/Prague had to confront incoming, towering, militaristic Teutonic Knights).
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Hey Charlie, Wow that came out of nowhere. Is there anything in particular that you have in mind, or is it that you just don't like Black guys getting into the White mans business?
I'm wondering if this .CharlieBass. poster is the real Charlie Bass.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Psychosis (from the Greek ψυχή "psyche", for mind/soul, and -ωσις "-osis", for abnormal condition) means abnormal condition of the mind, and is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality". People suffering from psychosis are described as Psychotic.Posts: 644 | Registered: May 2010
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posted
Several years ago I saw a documentary showing how bull jumping also is still found on an islands blacks off the coast of northeast Africa. I can't remember which one it was, but can probably look it up if nobody knows.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Dana. I'd appreciate it if you could come up with the reference or link.
Thanks.
Marc
. .
Will try Marc. SHouldn't be that difficult.
Well I didn't have to look far to find something.
"Bull jumping is known as a fertility ritual East Africa (Beckwith & Fisher 1999)" from African Origins of Classical Civilization by Graham Campbell-Dunn 2008, p. 112.
A summary of the book on the Tower Books site - "This book arose from Graham Campbell-Dunn''s research into Minoan Linear A. See his Who Were the Minoans? (2006). The syllabic sign system used on prehistoric Crete, he discovered, was related to the systems of pictographs found by Marçel Griaule in the Sudan, but also to Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Cretan customs, such as bulljumping, turned out also to have African parallels. Bullfighting took the author to Spain, Greece, Rome, and early India. Wherever bullfighting occurred other African practices such as phallic cults, mysterious mounds (sometimes with breasts) and mask festivals were found. The problem regarding the red flesh of Minoan men, but white flesh of their women on the wall paintings was explained by the Bantu practice of whiting females at puberty. Not only the Minoan language but also Basque and Etruscan show basic vocabulary that is Niger-Congo and all have African hand-based numerals: IIII "four" (fingers), = "tens" (two arms). Even Greek, Latin and Sanskrit showed strong African linguistic connections. See the author''s Comparative Linguistics: Indo-European and Niger-Congo (2006) for a demonstration. Particularly important was the discovery that prominent placenames in the Aegean and Mediterranean came from Africa. Bari and Como are obvious examples, as are Phaistos and Paestum (African Bai, Vai, Pai). The widespread placename Minoa was evidently called after the Nigerian fertility goddess Minona. The author concluded that King Minos of Crete had been invented by the mythographers. In more remote regions such as Sardinia, the Greek Islands, and Troy vestiges were found of African influence. The conclusion that the Greek and Roman Classics came out of Africa, became incontrovertible. Herodotus proved a valuable source and guide in investigating the preclassical civilisations. A map on the back cover of the book shows the World of Herodotus, and the diverse nations and tribes known to him."
The Hamer tribesman of southern Ethiopia share the bull jumping cult with with other tribes of the Omo valley according to the article - the Aari Bashada, Tsamai and Banna and others.
To pass from one age group to another involves complicated rituals. The most significant ceremony for young men is the "jumping of the bull" - the final test before passing into adulthood. from the url
I think the interesting thing is that Campbell-Dunn is from New Zealand and a white scholar while Clyde was talking about the relationship of Minoan to the Africans many, many years ago.
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