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THE BIRTH OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION: GREECE AND ROME (Hardcover) by George, A.R. Burn , H.C. Baldry, W.K.C. Guthrie, john Boardman, F.R. Cowell, R.A.G. Carson, Michael Grant, et al Huxley (Author) No customer reviews yet. Be the first.
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Black Spark White Fire.Poe Civilization OR Barbarism.Diop Golden Age Of The Moors.Van Sertima. Black Jacobiens C.L.R James. The IsIs PaPers. Dr Frances C Welsing The Histories .Herodutos The Holy Bible.GOD!! Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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U better point Hammer to the Audio versions. I don't believe he reads.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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Ackee, You have isted the radical fringe books rejected by cassical schoars with the exception of Herodutos who does not make your point. Diop made so many errors when he wrte on Greece that cassical scholars reject his view.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Indeed; Ackee should know better than list books that present information that don't agree with your personal and narrow opinions about life; is that not so?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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LOL @ "radical fringe". So I take it Herodotus and the Bible are so "radical" to him.
Oh and as for Herodotus, he made it clear when he visited Egypt that their civilization is much older and that his people (Greeks) adopted many things of civilization from them! THAT is what Ackee meant, and this holds true. Unless you can show evidence otherwise..
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Sure Lefkowitz deals with thast issue in detail. I n fact she devotes 30 pages to that issues and festroys the argument. Perhaps I should put her book on a book alert. She notes that other classical scholars agree with her point of view that Herodotus in fact does not know of anything the greeks recieved from Egypt but says he was simply taking the word of Priests he talked to.
This is what I meant earlier when i mentioned 'specialists.' None of the afrocentrics are greek scholars and as a result they make mistakes. If I have cancer I want a cancer specialist to deal with my problem.
Herodotous does not help you.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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^^That doesn't make much sense in the human context. Evidently they must have taken on some of the same infallible attributes as the greek Gods they study. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Let me be as simple as I can so that understanding does not escape us. Obviously the people who are specialist is a particular field undestand that field at its most complex level. I teach 19th century American history. I am not going to argue with Mary Lefkowitz about classical Greece. Now if OTHER classical scholars disagreed with her that might be different. In this case on Herodotus they all seem to agree with her that he was simply saying what Egyptian priests had told him. This is a real simple concept Sundjata. You do not go to a dentist to have your butt examined.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Let me be as simple as I can so that understanding does not escape us. Obviously the people who are specialist is a particular undestand that field at its most complex level. I teach 19th century American history. I am not going to argue with Mary Lefkowitz about classical Greece. Now if OTHER classical scholars disagreed with her that might be different. In this case on Herodotus they all seem to agree with her that he was simply saying what Egyptian priests had told him. This is a real simple concept Sundjata. You do not go to a dentist to have your butt examined.
You can try and be as simple as you'd like which is a task you perform rather effortlessly anyways. What I'm trying to understand is your wacked out claim that classicists don't make mistakes and thus, cannot be challenged on specific issues. It goes without saying that one's qualifications in a given field adds considerable weight to the person's said authority to speak about an issue, but that does not immunize them from error. History in general has to be revised constantly due to new discoveries, new theories, and overwhelming evidence [new or reinterpreted] contrary to old theories or assumptions. Appealing to authority is reserved for the lazy and complacent who lack the critical ability to understand what needs to be challenged or to discern dogmas that don't make sense, from proper evaluation and consideration of all available evidence.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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And why all this talk about "Afrocentrists" when you are obviously an extreme Eurocentrist? Why else would one post seven different thread topics over the course of 3-4 days, all revolving around miscellaneous books covering European history, on an "African-centered" forum? You have some kind of weird agenda going on that nobody truly cares about.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Classicalists can be challenged but not by you. Thsy are challenged by their peers just as in every field. Secondly I am not a Eurocentrist. If you make the case I will support it in every situation. The conversation on this forum in several threads moverd into Europe and impacted it's history. It was my view that if we are to have a conversation about European history perhaps we should know something about it's history. It was clear to me that many of the posters who were making claims about Europe had actually read very little about it. You know how many of the books I have posted you have read or not read. You should not obect to the spread of any kind of historical knowledge.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Previously, Hammer stated he taught "10th grade" American history. I guess he forgot to include that minor item this go around. It would also help if he had actually read the books he has been endorsing.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:You should not obect to the spread of any kind of historical knowledge.
I object to your agenda and arrogance which allows you to assume that intelligent people will be receptive to a disingenuous attempt at being friendly by bestowing upon us your "historical knowledge" in posting random books that you found on amazon. To state that some elite class of people called "classicists" cannot be subject to critique is to reinforce dogmas to the extent where the implications can be disastrous, as history has shown.
I'll be clear, I don't propose much about the origins of the ancient Greeks because honestly I'm not concerned, but your naivette and childlike faith in the status quo is alarming to say the least.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Patriot is the typical cracker and the back and forth between Captain America and American patriot is a lesson in black politics.
Patriot is typical white that operates from a position of power, not facts. So arrogant and dismissive, notice he never engages anyone even on the issues he believes. He merely posts books or say you cant question this or that white scholar and then condescendingly dismisses any contrary source or argument.
Captain America tries to engage him in facts thinking he can reason with the white man and win him over. It shows how pathetic the integrationist negro is when he tries to engage the white through reason and logic. This is why the negro is still a slave in America, he did not concentrate on getting real power but only focused on trying to "reason" with the powers that be so as to be accepted.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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good afternoon A.P you like to appeal to classcial scholors as D.J and others put it how about appeal to the ultimate, Horodotos and Homer? Homer "the greek btw" not Homer Simpson. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by akoben: Patriot is the typical cracker and the back and forth between Captain America and American patriot is a lesson in black politics.
Patriot is typical white that operates from a position of power, not facts. So arrogant and dismissive, notice he never engages anyone even on the issues he believes. He merely posts books or say you cant question this or that white scholar and then condescendingly dismisses any contrary source or argument.
Captain America tries to engage him in facts thinking he can reason with the white man and win him over. It shows how pathetic the integrationist negro is when he tries to engage the white through reason and logic. This is why the negro is still a slave in America, he did not concentrate on getting real power but only focused on trying to "reason" with the powers that be so as to be accepted.
LOL! What a stretch.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Yes well it's always good to laugh at yourself every now and then, istn't that right stankass??
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ I dont have a problem with you laughing at yourself Mary so long as when you're finished you deal with what's haunting you. Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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Yes well it's always good to laugh at yourself every now and then, istn't that right stankass??
What's that; an albino ass; is that what assopen has been reduced to, an albino jackass?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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You do not go to a dentist to have your butt examined.
I have a feeling you've tried it, and found out the hard way that it was a mistake.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sundjata, What you actually object to is anyone who disagrees with you having a platform to speak. You are not required to accept any of my views nor or you required to read any of the books I have posted. Amazon is a wonderful place to get books. Anyone here can build a wonderful library and a very low coast if they are so inclined or bother to read.
Further Classical scholars are nothing more than historians of the period under question. They spend their lives studying and researching Greek history. That does not make them elites it makes them experts in that field. They can be questioned but not by you and I. That bis the way the system works in all fields of study. Aree you going to argue Cosmology with Stephen Hawking or are you more apt to learn from him.
If you guys were REALLY interested in black African history there are a wealth of opportunities to explore. Putting yourself on the same level as those who believe in the flat earth theory by taking on all of these bizarre theories on Greece is a waste of time.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Comparing hard sciences to soft sciences like Classics,Sociology and anthropology is a very bad analogy. Soft sciences are built upon speculation-albeit-- educated speculation but you cannot state they are upon a solid foundation like physics,chemistry or any assortment of hard sciences. All these fields are open to critical anaylsis because nothing is really concrete like other hard science disciplines.
To accept everything within these fields as fact without question is foolish and illgoical. Infact, if many of the heroes of western thought like Socrates and Plato lived today both would question the assertions held true by many classicist.
In the spirit of the ancient Greeks I will gladly refute and question all assertions by classicist. My criticism will probably will never be published but I definately hold the right to question.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Well Ausar You certanily have the right to question as do we all. The question becomes do we have the knowledge base and educational background to deal with those complex issues in a meaningful way without making serious errors. In most cases we do not.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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^ Unfortunately Ausar, what Pat fails to realize is that these soft sciences such as historic studies are being somewhat 'hardened' via multi-disciplined aid of the hard sciences such as bio-anthroplogy and genetics. It is because of these hard sciences that historians are getting a more accurate picture of population movements not only in ancient times but even in prehistoric times when there are no written records! It is laymen like Pat with racial issues who just don't accept them. Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Not to deamean academia but I will take a hand-ons approach over published historical data in a journal. In many ways academia simply trains people in archaeology,anthropology and other disciplines to simply regurgitate what is being taught with them. Most of the great discoveries in archaeology,linguistics and other displines have been made by laymen(i.e. the discovery of ancient Troy )
The problem is most common people have little time to reserch subjects of history. Most of the luxaries of reserch goes to people with very deep pockets and sometimes political agendas(Olion Pioneer fund and Ford foundation)
However, I believe soft sciences should allow imput from people that do not have lettering behind their names. I am all for the peer-review proces but certain fields should not be hearlded like medicine or the hard sciences.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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AmericanPatriot and his books on the Europe is the beginning of the world civilization mythology. The funniest thing is that these books do not even claim this crap. Again history 101:
Art Architecture Math Science Hygiene Medicine Sculpture Law Religion Philosophy Mysticism Music Writing Language Trade Agriculture Paved roads
Do not originate in Europe, which includes Greece or Rome.
Greece and Rome are late civilizations that only benefitted greatly from the 3-4,000 years of development in civilization that mostly took place outside of Europe. Birth of ancient Greece: 1000 B.C. High point of "Classical" Greece: 500B.C.
Those dates 3000 years after the birth of civilization outside of Europe. And at the time there were civilizations thriving all over the planet in Persia, Babylon, Africa, South Asia, East Asia and the Americas. And even then most of Europe was not civilized, at least to the degree elsewhere in the world.
I doubt these books contradict those facts. But I am sure Mr Patriot hasn't read any of them.
Anyone who would teach that trends in civilization started in Greece or Rome in 500 B.C. needs to be banned from teaching.
And if you want to play cheerleader for Western civilization then cheerlead on the fact that so-called Western civilization is beat hands down by Eastern and Southern civilizations by 3000 years. And even after the birth of Greece and Rome most of Europe was not practicing civilization. So the only thing that was born were the cultures of Greece and Rome which were not representative of all Europe.
Timeline of history:
Birth hominids 2,000,000 years ago in Africa.
Birth of toolmaking and hunter gathering: Africa 200,000 years ago.
Birth of modern homo sapiens in Africa 200,000 years ago.
Development of speech, toolmaking, rituals, fire and trade: 100,000+ years ago in Africa.
Migrations to settle the globe: Africa 60,000 years ago.
Rise of pastoral nomadism and the march towards civilization: 10-11,000 years ago Africa and the Levant.
Rise of city states: 8,000 years ago, Africa and the Levant.
Rise of the centralized nation state: 5,000 years ago: Africa.
Rise of civilization: 5,000 years ago, Africa and Asia.
And on top of that the book is old anyway, from the 1960s.
Posts: 8896 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Not to deamean academia but I will take a hand-ons approach over published historical data in a journal. In many ways academia simply trains people in archaeology,anthropology and other disciplines to simply regurgitate what is being taught with them. Most of the great discoveries in archaeology,linguistics and other displines have been made by laymen(i.e. the discovery of ancient Troy )
The problem is most common people have little time to reserch subjects of history. Most of the luxaries of reserch goes to people with very deep pockets and sometimes political agendas(Olion Pioneer fund and Ford foundation)
However, I believe soft sciences should allow imput from people that do not have lettering behind their names. I am all for the peer-review proces but certain fields should not be hearlded like medicine or the hard sciences.
I couldn't agree more, Ausar! I always prefer the hands-on approach better.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I love these conspiracy theories. Are we saying that since there may be some conspiracy we are free to practice careless scholarship by people who lack the background in a field to simly promote any theory that fits their world view?
There are 200-250 classical scholars of note in the world. They do not all agree on every aspect of the discpline BUT there develops a synthesis of their views which becomes the norm. This system may have flaws but it is far superior to a bunch of untrained laymen coming up with ideas without all of the facts to work with.
Doug,again your post makes no sense. First of all the books cover a broad section of European history. Some of them are classics, some are new. The VERY BEST book out there on the build up to WW II is a book called 'On Borrowed Time' and it is 35 years old. Balaced reading leads to greater understanding and the books I have listed offer balanced reading on ancient Europe.
Your list of civilizations is nice but misses the point. Nobody ever said Greece was the first civilization. Nobody claims Greece was anything ECCEPT the creator of WESTERN CIVILIZATION. You know Doug the Aztecs had a civilization as well and Asia and Africa had nothing to do with it.
Djehuti, Hands on is great if the person putting their hands on has any idea of what they are talking about.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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^ LOL!!! It is true, You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
What did Europe's intellectual center, Venice in 1290 label the abundant coal Marco Polo observed the Chinese used for fuel? Magic Black rocks. LMAO!!
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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That is because they spend a life time of study. If we did it your way Sundjata Joe the Plumber would be writing our history books. So tell me why I should listen to you over someone who has been working everyday in a field for 30 years? Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: If we did it your way Sundjata Joe the Plumber would be writing our history books.
Ironically, this is the exact man who your weird forum rants remind me of. lol..
quote:So tell me why I should listen to you over someone who has been working everyday in a field for 30 years?
^I wasn't requesting any audience so the question is why should anyone listen to you?? Ausar's point about Classics being an interdisciplinary field of study (as opposed to a basic science) leaves such a field and specific conclusions drawn within such fields, subject to criticism especially given isolated matters concerning the hard sciences (i.e, Biology/Genetics, etc..)...
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Classics is an IDS field, true. But history is the catch all where all of these discplines end up when all is said and done. If the genetics presented here on this board is correct, and much of it is misinterpreted, then it will find it's way into classical history. Secondly, I do not 'rant.'I suspect that you think anyone who does not agree with you rants.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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But classicists are people who only focus on one part of history. To imply that classicists are the sole bastion of civilization in the ancient world is quite false. During the same time period that the classicists study, there were civilizations in the Americas, China, South Asia and Africa that the classicists do not cover. Also, a key point to remember is that there was no such wide spread civilization in all of Europe at the time. It was mainly in the South East.
Posts: 8896 | Registered: May 2005
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Doug, Historians all deal with small segments of history. You get a general history education until you get to your doctorate. At that point you pick a narrow field to work in. Classical scholars are specialists in Ancient Greek history, not all ancient history. They will determine what is acceptable in ancient Greek history and what is not. the British had a wonderful civilization during the period. I suggested a book on ancient British history which you should read.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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lol ^ what utter rubbish. Besides not being a professor, I'm willing to bet you've never been anywhere near a school in your life.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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^ He teaches welding at a Texas vocational school. They call him the Professor on Stormfront.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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