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Found this photo today. Very surprised. Who are these people and their history? From REUTERS/Athar Hussain (PAKISTAN)
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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^ it is this kind of picture that I really get angry the amount of time I have spent watching Hollywood movies and how much the Western education shaped my world-view. I really need to get out of Europe and travel
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Descendants of warrior slaves as well as Habesh that readily sold themselves onto merchant ships for work.
They are an impoverished people by enlarge. Not indigenous if that was your point.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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How can you say that not knowing who that person really is...are Black folk living i In the Solomon Islands decendants of worrior slaves..or those living in "Melen"-Asia (black Asia)...slaves or anything of the sort..not discounting the Siddis slave origins why does everything have to be neat and tidy for you people history does not work like that it is often messey and contradictory.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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The indigenous Melanesian people have long ago mixed with the influx of people from Asia minor. Not likely you are going to find an ancient Melanesian person in Northern India (Pakistan). The people of the Andamans were isolated which prevented normal admixture that would occur. Basically it is almost statistically impossible for this person to be an indigenous Melanesian/Austronesian person in Northern India.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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HISTORY NOTES: CASTE AND RACE IN INDIA LECTURE NOTES: THE AFRICAN PRESENCE IN INDIA - A PHOTO ESSAY HISTORY NOTES: THE AFRICAN PRESENCE IN INDIAN ANTIQUITY NOTES FROM A BROTHER IN INDIA: HISTORY AND HERITAGE NOTES FROM A BROTHER IN INDIA: THE BIGOTRY OF HINDUS WITH REGARD TO SKIN COLOUR HISTORY NOTES: DR. CHEIKH ANTA DIOP AND THE CULTURAL ROOTS OF THE DALITS: INDIA'S BLACK UNTOUCHABLES NOTES FROM A BROTHER IN INDIA: BIGOTRY OF HINDUS WITH REGARD TO SKIN COLOUR & HISTORY AND HERITAGE HISTORY NOTES: A PLEA FOR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION AT THE WORLD CONFERENCE AGAINST RACISM HISTORY NOTES: PAN-AFRICANISM IN SOUTH ASIA HISTORY NOTES: THE BLACKS OF THE EAST BENGAL: A NATIVE'S PERSPECTIVE.
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See the bellow quotes on Bantu language. An important thing to note is this ease of inter-communication had to be because of extensive travel and trade. Why wouldn't they also travel to Pakistan and India on their own?
Al-Jahiz (776-869) (the prides of blacks over the whites)
A careful reading of "The prides of blacks over the whites" shows that it is just one work by Jahiz amongst many about different races bragging about how great they are. The Zanj that Jahiz is quoting from make it very clear they were not being oppressed.
quote:They say; If a Zanji and a Zanji women marry and their children remain after puberty in Iraq, they come to rule the roost thanks to their numbers, endurance, knowledge, and efficiency. On the other hand, the child of an Indian and an Indian woman, or of a Greek and a Greek woman, or of a Khurasani and a Khurasani women remain among you and in your country in the same condition as their fathers and mothers
quote:The Bantu languages, in fact, are rather more closely related one to the other—even in their extremest forms—than are the Aryan languages. This is so much the case that a native of Zanzibar can very soon make himself understood on the Congo, while a man of the Cameroons would not be long before he grasped the vocabulary of the Zulu. This interesting fact must play a certain part in the political development of Africa south of the fifth degree of north latitude. The rapidity with which the Kiswahili tongue of Zanzibar—a very convenient, simple, and expressive form of Bantu speech— has spread far and wide over East Central Africa, and has even gained a footing on the Congo, hints at the possibility of the Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication.
quote:In the development of Africa the Bantu is the weightiest native factor. His language is a speech whose dialects—through derivation forming a common original—are so analogous in type, that the Kongoan of West Africa, the Swahili of the eastern coast, the Ugandan of the Lakes, and the Zulu of the south, have little difficulty in understanding each other. The meaning of this momentous fact will make itself clearer when it is recalled that Kongo and Zululand are thousands of miles apart, and that for centuries the Kongolese and the Kaffir have had no intercourse. Yet, in 1890, to express the idea differently, the Zulus in Stanley's expedition quickly found themselves able to converse easily with Bantu natives of the districts around Lake Albert Edward.
The beauty, plastic power and richness of the Bantu languages amaze scholars. Their principle of alliterative concordance between the parts of speech is in itself a most astonishing phenomenon. Their flexibility, pliancy and softness are almost limitless; their grammatical principles founded on the most philosophical and systematic basis; their vocabularies susceptible of infinite expansion, offering an opportunity for the expression of the most delicate shadings of elevated thought and Christian feeling.
Livingstone characterized men who complained of the alleged severity of the Bantu languages as proving themselves paupers in attainment. The breadth of the domain over which the Bantu languages extend their sway; their unexceeded capability of definiteness 'and precision, unsurpassable power of forming derivatives— not even Greek or German surpassing in this faculty—and subtlety of idea and wealth of expression, will cause the Bantu and his speech to become of measureless importance to the future of Christianity and civilization. Zulu, Swahili and Ngolan, or Mbundu, form the English tongue of their respective spheres.
These, respectively, for the South, the East and the West, are the representative and standard languages. The Bantu unity in variety, plasticity and power of growth constitute ground for hope that the best elements of the best languages may be embodied in a classic, a complete and single speech. Zulu, by the survival of the philologically fittest, has for a century been displacing its neighbors. To aid Swahili and Angolan, peaceably in such a linguistic trend, that the fifty million Bantu of the coming century shall speak one speech, chaste and simple, expressive, rich and strong, is among the high callings of the Christian missionary. For the realization of this ideal, the translation of the Scriptures into the Bantu vernaculars is the supreme means and opportunity.
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: "They are not negroids! They are black caucasiods"
"They are not blacks." Colour is not real neither race. They are just Haplogroup Ds, O, E-M78, and MtDna M1"
Seen?
Lion!
SO WHAT.
They still have beautiful hides. Lineage is good to help you know your brothers... but I'm not going to start a crusade over other lineages just because. Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Problem is most folks want history to be either or iether...black folks can't be living in a spot for 20,000yrs only to be joined by blacks who arrived 2000yrs ago and yet another group came as Slaves 300yrs ago...people hates complexity.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources.....The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the; Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans who had made their homes in the region.....
...If more proof is needed that it was not a slave revolt, it is to be found in the fact that it had a highly organized army and navy which vigorously resisted the whole weight of the central government; for almost fifteen years. Moreover, it must have had huge resources that allowed it to build no less than six impregnable towns in which there were arsenals for the manufacture of weapons and battleships. These towns also had in their mammoth markets prodigious wealth which was more than the salt marshes could conceivably produce. Even all the booty from Basra and the whole region could not account for such enormous wealth. Significantly the revolt had the backing of a certain group of merchants who preserved with their support until the very end. Tabari makes it very clear that the strength of the rebels was dependent on the support of these merchants
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: The Problem is most folks want history to be either or iether...black folks can't be living in a spot for 20,000yrs only to be joined by blacks who arrived 2000yrs ago and yet another group came as Slaves 300yrs ago...people hates complexity.
I suppose you have a point. Haratins feel the same way. If you are Black North African you must be a Sub-Saharan slave which is not true for the Haratins.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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In the second half of the 18th century, the slave trade expanded and became more organized. There was also a huge demand for ivory, and slaves were used as porters to carry it.
There were three main reasons why more slaves were required:
1. The clove plantations on Zanzibar and Pemba set up by Sultan Seyyid Said, needed labour.
2. Brazilian traders were finding it difficult to operate in West Africa because the British navy was intercepting slave ships. The Brazilians made the journey round the Cape of Good Hope, taking slaves from the Zambezi valley and Mozambique.
3. The French had started up sugar and coffee plantations in Mauritius and Reunion.
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: ^ it is this kind of picture that I really get angry the amount of time I have spent watching Hollywood movies and how much the Western education shaped my world-view.
Thanks for sticking up for ya L1/L2 boy
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:"Waash-Mallay" they shout in unison. And then they jump. It's an impressive sight. Their black bodies glisten in the sun as they dance to a rhythm that is both South Asian and African. These are the Makranis, the people from the coastal Makran district of Balochistan, most of whom are of African origin. The Makranis are known for the dance and music, their love for football and their loyalty to one party — the PPP of Benazir Bhutto. Most Makranis now live in Lyari, one of the oldest areas of Karachi, and one of its poorest as well. In the seventies, then prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto gave them ownership rights to their houses and properties in Lyari. Since then, they have known only one party. "She is considered our sister and our daughter," says Ishaq Baloch, of Makrani who lives in Kharadar, next to Lyari
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Doug M - Thank you for saving me the trouble. The ignorance of these people is starting to get on my nerves - it's like they don't even try.
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While a few black Pakistanis may be Habesh (descendants of East African slaves sold to Arabs, Persians, and Indians), the vast majority of them are in fact aboriginal.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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It seems a shame that I have to point this out:
Until India's independence from Britain in 1947, India and Pakistan were the SAME country - INDIA.
The area now called Pakistan is the home of one of the worlds ORIGINAL BLACK civilizations - the Indus valley Dravidian's of Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa. Non-Black Indians and Pakistanis are the result of admixture with invading Whites (Arians) around 1000 B.C.
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Saying that people are shocked to see a "Black" Pakistanis is kind of weird. I mean Indians, Pakistanis are some of the Darkest people in the world. I understand that people are use to seeing the "Bollywood" indians in power and in front of the more Aboriginal Indians but really can't most Pakistanis, and Indians be labeled "Black". People seem to want to keep the Label "Black" only for Africans when there is Black people the world over.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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King - That really speaks to the quality of the forum more than anything else. BTW - I don't know what your experience is, but most Indians that I know, describe themselves as Black.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Yeah I here what you are saying. The Black label though seems to be something that can change at the whim of whoever is in power of a certain country.
Take Cuba for example. It was allways thought that Cuba was home to a Majority Black, Mullato Country yet in there latest census, they claim that Cuba is 65% White. It was thought by most people that Cuba was around 67% African or greater, yet we have the Cuban Government not only Downplaying how much Africans they have but changeing the Census to fit a Majority White Country. I noticed this when I was looking at the demographics of countries with a large African Population and realized that Cuba was not in the grouping:
Just scroll down to the Ethnicity part. It's sad that in this day and age that hatred for being African can lead a country to Bold Face Lie about the people in there country and claim that a country like Cuba is mostly white. The Next thing you will see Colombia follow Cuba and downplay how much Africans they have in there Country. To me this is just a shame. Also not many people are making anything out of the Lie the Cuban government pulled over on there own people.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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I am a bit confused. Are you folks talking about India or are you talking about Pakistan. Pakistan is Northern India. India in general has a lot of aboriginal Black people that are similar to Australian and Melanesian people. I am not aware of these people being found in Pakistan other than the Habesh.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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King - That one is very surprising indeed. And I really do not know what it means. One possibility is that Cubans are like many Black people in the Caribbean who simply refuse to identify themselves as Black, even when they are very dark skinned.
That dynamic also plays out in something that you alluded to in your prior post. Quote: "I understand that people are use to seeing the "Bollywood" indians".
I'm sure that you have noticed that on Spanish TV, like Indian TV, the majority of the people are of European extraction. And though these people are a minority in the population, all appear quite satisfied with the arrangement. So if it's good enough for them, far be it from me to complain for them.
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osirion - Curious as to why you refer to Dravidian's as like Australian and Melanesian people?
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There is nothing called a stupid question! Capish?
Anyway, thank you all for your replies. I knew there were Black Indians (close to Yemen and East Africa), but I did not expect in Pakistan which is far away from Indian ocean (but have Reed Sea coast, or maybe it there where they came from? Via Oman and Yemen?)
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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India and Pakistan have been severely white washed by foreign invaders over the last 2500-3000 years. This has nothing to do with pre-history. Most of the white washing is more recent, starting with the Greeks (Bactrians), then the Persians, then the Muslims and then the British. The Muslims and the British being the most destructive of them all.
As an example, check out the performers of the national dance of India, called Bharatanatyam. This dance originates in Tamil Nadu, among the BLACK aboriginal populations there, yet almost ALL of the dancers in this national troupe are damn there white, just like bollywood. Also if you notice almost all the ancient deities look like the normal brown skinned Indians, where as the more modern portraits of these same deities are made to look almost PURE WHITE.
Note the jet black deity in the background.
Search the web for classical Indian dance and see how many black Indians you see.
quote: Bharatanatyam is thought to have been created by Bharata Muni, a Hindu sage, who wrote the Natya Shastra, the most important ancient treatise on classical Indian dance. It is also called the fifth Veda in reference to the foundation of Hindu religion and philosophy, from which sprang the related South Indian musical tradition of Carnatic music.
Surviving texts of the golden age of Tamil literature and poetry known during the Sangam Age such as the Tolkappiyam, as well as the later Silappadikaram, testify to a variety of dance traditions which flourished in these times. The latter work is of particular importance, since one of its main characters, the courtesan Madhavi, is a highly accomplished dancer. The Silappadikaram is a mine of information of ancient Tamil culture and society, in which the arts of music and dance were highly developed and played a major role.
In ancient times it was performed as dasiattam by mandir (Hindu temple) Devadasis. Many of the ancient sculptures in Hindu temples are based on Bharata Natyam dance postures karanas. In fact, it is the celestial dancers, apsara's, who are depicted in many scriptures dancing the heavenly version of what is known on earth as Bharatanatyam. In the most essential sense, a Hindu deity is a revered royal guest in his temple/abode, to be offered the "sixteen hospitalities" - among which are music and dance, pleasing to the senses. Thus, many Hindu temples traditionally maintained complements of trained musicians and dancers, as did Indian rulers.
In Kali Yuga, the center of most arts in India is Bhakti (devotion) and therefore, Bharata Natyam as a dance form and carnatic music set to it are deeply grounded in Bhakti. Bharata Natyam, it is said, is the embodiment of music in visual form, a ceremony, and an act of devotion. Dance and music are inseparable forms; only with Sangeetam (words or syllables set to raga or melody) can dance be conceptualized. Bharata Natyam has three distinct elements to it: Nritta (rhythmic dance movements), Natya (mime, or dance with a dramatic aspect), and Nritya (combination of Nritta and Natya).
There is nothing called a stupid question! Capish?
Anyway, thank you all for your replies. I knew there were Black Indians (close to Yemen and East Africa), but I did not expect in Pakistan which is far away from Indian ocean (but have Reed Sea coast, or maybe it there where they came from? Via Oman and Yemen?)
India and Pakistan were once the same Country.
The the ruins of the Indus Valley civilization are actually in Pakistan. India, Pakistan and Bangladesh were all one nation. The British broke them up and made them separate only less than 100 years ago.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: I am a bit confused. Are you folks talking about India or are you talking about Pakistan. Pakistan is Northern India. India in general has a lot of aboriginal Black people that are similar to Australian and Melanesian people. I am not aware of these people being found in Pakistan other than the Habesh.
Pakistan has the same aboriginal population as India. They are part of the same geographic land mass. The boundary between the two is fake as the people all have the same historical roots. Pakistan is where the Indus Valley civilization is located, which by all definitions was made up of aboriginal South Asians. The reason Pakistan has more lighter skinned people is that this is the area that was most often conquered by foreigners in Ancient times, which includes the Persians, the Greeks, Muslims and so forth. Most of those people did not make it into the sub continent itself. That has produced a stratified society, where most of the darkest people are at the very bottom of the social ladder. If you want to see some jet black Pakistanis, look at the hard laborers from Arabia to Iraq to Iran and within Pakistan itself and you will see them in higher percentages than the general population overall. The UAE, Kuwait and other Arabian countries have a lot of these dark Pakistanis doing their hard labor. In general many of the modern power elite of India and Pakistan are British educated and accented due to the legacy of colonialism which has had the biggest impact on social stratification of all.
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^ Its not what I was told by the Pakistani themselves. They told me that people in the Southern parts of India looked like African Americans. Though they often think my brother is from Pakistan.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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What he meant is black Pakistanis. They aren't African so there is no need to call them Afro-Pakistani. Those black people in Indian don't look nothing like East Africans they look like Indians. You've been drinking too much Afro-centric kool-aid.
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My Pakistan friend actually does notice that Ethiopians look a lot like Indian people.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Absolutely. Of course you are talking some of the billion plus people in India that look like East Africans, not just Ethiopians but Kenyans as well.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: My Pakistan friend actually does notice that Ethiopians look a lot like Indian people.
You're lying. You can't tell the difference between Indians and Pakistanis. East Africans and Indians look nothing alike.
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Absolutely. Of course you are talking some of the billion plus people in India that look like East Africans, not just Ethiopians but Kenyans as well.
Those pics look nothing like Ethiopians. There are a lot of Indians in Kenya and Tanzania so that is why some Kenyans look like Indians. It's because they are.
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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I would like to add a note to an entry by: markellion
The URL he provides for the translation of the Book The Superiority of the Black over the whites is not correct anymore. The site has moved. New adress: http://sites.google.com/site/historyofeastafrica/
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East Africans and Indians usually don't look alike at all. South Indians look more or less identical to North Indians and very dark skin tones are very common in Pakistan as well.
That shouldn't be surprising as the people are ultimately the same people. Those indigenous people living on the Andaman Island or rural India tend to look akin to Africans. That is, a cranio-facial profile that tends to be common amongst Africans and Melanesians.
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