posted
Well of course they don't use today the term Negro as William Ripley did. But you will see my point.
The below study was thankfully just posted by L', and I want people to make note of how Eurocentric views are being challenged by modern EUROPEAN scientists along with so called "Afrocentrics". The importance of this study is that it asserts that the most likely scenario wasn't diffusion of culture during the Neolithic into Europe but immigration and diffusion of populations of tropical affiliation into Europe.
It also confirms or reaffirms what earlier investigators knew but couldn't accept and tried to hide or couch under terms like "Mediterranean race", "brown race", "hamitic caucasoid", "Eurafrican" etc.
See "The Myth of the Mediterranean Race" by Dana Reynolds-Marniche in Egypt Child of Africa, Journal of African Civilizations Vol. 12 Spring, 1994.
----- Article title: "Population continuity, demic diffusion and Neolithic origins in central-southern Germany: The evidence from body proportions
School of Anatomical Sciences, University of the Witwatersrand, 7 York Road, Parktown, Johannesburg 2193, Republic of South Africa
Department of Human Anatomy & Cell Biology, University of Liverpool, Ashton Street, Liverpool L69 3GE, UK
Institut für Humangenetik und Anthropologie, Friedrich-Schiller-Universität, Kollegiengasse 10, 07740 Jena, FRG Received 21 January 2008; accepted 13 May 2008. Available online 4 March 2009.
Abstract
"The transition to agro-pastoralism in central Europe has been framed within a dichotomy of “regional continuity” versus exogenous “demic diffusion”. While substantial genetic support exists for a model of demographic diffusion from an ancestral source in the Near East, archaeological data furnish weak support for the “wave of advance” model. Nevertheless, archaeological evidence attests the widespread introduction of an exogenous “package” comprising ceramics, cereals, pulses and domesticated animals to central Europe at 5600 cal BCE.
Body proportions are under strong climatic selection and evince remarkable stability within regional lineages. As such, they offer a viable and robust alternative to cranio-facial data in assessing hypothesised continuity and replacement with the transition to agro-pastoralism in central Europe. Humero-clavicular, brachial and crural indices in a large sample (n=75) of Linienbandkeramik (LBK), Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age specimens from the middle Elbe-Saale-Werra valley (MESV) were compared with Eurasian and African terminal Pleistocene, European Mesolithic and geographically disparate recent human specimens.
Mesolithic Europeans display considerable variation in humero-clavicular and brachial indices yet none approach the extreme “hyper-polar” morphology of LBK humans from the MESV. In contrast, Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age peoples display elongated brachial and crural indices reminiscent of terminal Pleistocene and “TROPICALLY ADAPTED” recent humans. These marked morphological changes LIKELY REFLECT EXOGENOUS IMMIGRATION DURING THE TERMINAL FOURTH MILLENIUM cal BC. Population expansion and diffusion is a function of increased mobility and settlement dispersal concomitant with significant technological and subsistence changes in later Neolithic societies during the late fourth millennium cal BCE...."
"Discussion
Current data support the view that body proportions [n]are under strong genetic mediation ([Schultz, 1923], [Schultz, 1926a] and [Schultz, 1926b]; Warren et al., 2002) and that allometric trajectories of the distal segments are remarkably homogeneous over prolonged temporal sequences within a region[/b]. The comparative studies of (Schultz, 1923), (Schultz, 1926a) and (Schultz, 1926b) remain definitive. African and European foetuses differ significantly in the relative proportions of the proximal and distal segments of the limbs and in the relative breadth of the hip and shoulder and these mirror those witnessed during ontogeny and in adulthood (Eveleth and Tanner, 1990; [Schultz, 1923], [Schultz, 1926a] and [Schultz, 1926b]; Warren et al., 2002). (Eveleth and Tanner, 1976) and (Eveleth and Tanner, 1990) compendia of worldwide growth data and their analyses of regional patterns confirm the existence of adult-like body proportions during early and adolescent growth (Bogin, 2000).
Zakrzewski (2003) found no significant changes in brachial and crural indices in pre-Dynastic ancient Egyptians through their descendants in the Old and New Kingdoms over three millennia. With one significant exception, crural indices of New Kingdom Pharaoh's (1570–1070 BCE) are remarkably consistent and fall within 2SD units of the Naquada pooled-sex mean (Warren, 1897). The extremely low crural index of Ramesses II (“Ramesses the Great”) is unusual and contrasts with those seen in his father (Sety 1), his son (Merneptah) and with other New Kingdom Pharaohs (Fig. 7)..."
"Conclusions:
Analyses of body proportions in chronologically successive samples from the middle Elbe-Saale-Werra valley, central-southern Germany (c5500–1800 cal BCE) reveal a marked disjunction in brachial and crural indices of the earliest LBK agro-pastoralists and Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age populations (c3200–1800 cal BCE). Body proportions of the earliest LBK farmers can be characterised as “hyper-polar” (Ruff, 1994; Ruff and Walker, 1993) with proportionally elongated clavicles which exceed the range of variation of Upper Pleistocene and recent Homo sapiens. Brachial and crural indices are substantially abbreviated compared to terminal Pleistocene humans and even recent Europeans. The brachial index of the Mesolithic specimen from Schellnecker Wand also displays marked abbreviation and is consistent with hypothesised regional continuity during the transition to agro-pastoralism.
We interpret marked changes in body proportions as reflecting the immigration of agro-pastoralists during the terminal fourth millennium BCE. These populations retain body proportions characteristic of their terminal Pleistocene predecessors with elongate brachial and crural indices. Increased mobility and concomitant changes in settlement pattern, social structure and economic subsistence are characteristics of early “Copper Age” societies of south-west and central-southern Europe during the late fifth–early fourth millennium BCE. While we sympathise with (Anthony, 1990) and (Anthony, 1992) position that the “migrant baby” has been too zealously discarded with its bathwater (see also Shennan, 2000), we suggest that such migrations reflect cumulative pressures of increased population mobility, demographic growth and technological/subsistence innovations. Evidence supports the introduction of the plough, yoke and perhaps the wheel in central-southern Germany during the terminal fourth millennium. While the significance of milk consumption remains the focus of intense debate, the significance of domestic pigs in facilitating population expansions and migrations HAS BEEN COMPARATIVELY UNDERRATED."
A. Gallaghera, Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author, M.M. Guntherb and H. Bruchhausc
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posted
The facts pointed out about likely immigration can not be understated.
All these new studies are confirming what Diop explained so long ago that "the Mediterranean Race" of neolithic Europe was in fact a euphemism for "the black race" - or les NEGRES.
This is in agreemnt with findings of anatomist G. ELLIOT SMITH, - “a description of the bones of an Early Briton of that remote epoch might apply in all essential details to an inhabitant of Somaliland… The people were longheaded of small stature, skull is long, narrow and coffin shaped, brow ridges poorly developed, forehead is narrow, vertical and often slightly bulging…”.
The dolichocephalic neolithic Europeans were indistinguishable from Somali and East Africans - albeit he called them "the brown race."
It was in generally acknowledged by Haddon, Krogman, and the early physical anthropologists and now Brace and by Ricaut etc. are just supporting the earlier findings.
Early U.S. anthropologist William Ripley being an American uses the term "Negroes".
The fact that Nabta Playa of Nubia was "the proto-type" of the later Stone Henge and other megalithic sites found in the Levant also suggest the gracile dolichocephalic so-called "Mediterranean Caucasoid" was one or more immigrant black African population. [Razz]
The art work or paintings of these black populations are found all over Europe and the Levant until the Bronze Age. I would have thought it was rather the late 5th millenium since Coon and others were projecting the presence back that far.
Aside from the earliest LBK or LinearBandeKeramic the early Chamblandes, Swiss Lake Cultures and megalithic cultures of Great Britain, and the early painted pottery culture extending from eastern Europe into Turkestan also fall into this category as well even as certain of the earliest Kurgan cultures (as at Srubnaya). "“Modern Europeans ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to Eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean on to the Middle East show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors ARE NOT CLOSELY RELATED TO THE MODERN INHABITANTS..."
Modern “Basques and Canary islanders are clearly related to modern Europeans.” See, "The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form, C. Loring Brace, Noriko Seguchi, Conrad B. Quintyn,§ Sherry C. Fox, A. Russell Nelson, Sotiris K. Manolis,and Pan Qifeng Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 January 3; 103(1): 242–247.
"The population of both Upper and Lower Mesopotamia in prehistoric times belonged to the brown or Mediterranean race. While this basic stock persisted in historical, times especially in the south, it became increasingly, mixed especially with broad-headed Armenoid peoples from the northeastern mountains owing to the recurrent incursions of mountain tribes into the plain.” In William L. Langer – An Encyclopedia of World History, Houghton Mifflin Company Boston 1972 .
The question is what are the root of the widespread black African affiliated cultures that spread by the Neolithic throughout Europe through Mesopotamia and the Zagros to Central Asia and China by the Neolithic and into early Polynesia and South America.
The question is not whether they were there. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Observed geographical clines in body size and body shape reflect adaptations to climate under Bergmann's and Allen's rules (Bergmann, 1847; Allen, 1877; [Roberts, 1952] and [Roberts, 1978]; Roberts and Bainbridge, 1963; [Ruff, 1991] and [Ruff, 1994]). The prevalence of ecogeographical patterning is inferred to explain physical correspondences in Australian Aborigines, East African Nilotics and Lower Pleistocene African Homo erectus (Coon, 1962; [Roberts, 1952] and [Roberts, 1978]; Roberts and Bainbridge, 1963; [Ruff, 1991], [Ruff, 1993] and [Ruff, 1994]; Ruff and Walker, 1993). Body proportions are pertinent in resolving the question of biological ancestry of early Upper Pleistocene modern humans and their inferred dispersal to Europe prior to the onset of the last glaciation (Churchill and Smith, 2000; [Holliday, 1995], [Holliday, 1997a] and [Holliday, 2000]; Stringer et al., 1984; Trinkaus, 1981).
Observed variance in body proportions has a strong genetic component and adult distinctions are manifest during early foetal development ([Schultz, 1923], [Schultz, 1926a] and [Schultz, 1926b]; Warren et al., 2002). While brachial and crural indices almost certainly respond to ecogeographical selection pressures, distal segment allometric trajectories appear highly conservative in successive generations once fixed (Robins and Schute, 1983; Zakrzewski, 2003). Analyses of brachial and crural indices in ancient Egyptians spanning the Early Predynastic Period to the Middle Kingdom reveal no significant changes (Zakrzewski, 2003). This supports the general consensus ([Holliday, 1995], [Holliday, 1997a], [Holliday, 1997b] and [Holliday, 1999]; Ruff, 1994; Trinkaus, 1981) that distal/proximal limb segment proportions are remarkably conservative in prehistoric and historic lineages. Prehistoric Jomon foragers from Japan display distal segment proportions which are significantly higher than in later prehistoric agriculturists (Yayoi) from mainland East Asia (Temple et al., 2008).
Environmental factors can significantly influence postnatal ontogenetic trajectories of the proximal and distal limb segments. Analyses of body proportions in Peruvian Andean peoples found significant differences in extremely high altitude samples (>3000 m asl) compared with their lowland contemporaries (Weinstein, 2005). Perspectives of the effects of the secular trend (Jantz and Jantz, 1999; Meadows and Jantz, 1995) and the plasticity of relative limb proportions in Japanese migrants (Bennett and Hulse, 1982; Froelich, 1970; Greulich, 1976; Shapiro, 1939) and Mayan children (Bogin et al., 2002; Bogin and Rios, 2003) support the conclusion that environmental stimuli significantly influence body proportions. Recent historical changes in stature and long bone shape in the United States suggest that increases in stature are commensurate with greater allometric growth in the lower limb than in the upper limb (Jantz and Jantz, 1999; Meadows and Jantz, 1995). While significant shape changes occur in the relative proportions of the tibia in US whites during the late 19th century, this has remained remarkably conservative during the 20th century (Jantz and Jantz, 1999). There is no evidence of pervasive positive allometry in the distal limb segments of the upper and lower limbs (Jantz and Jantz, 1999; also see Table 3).
The aim of this analysis is to assess body proportions of the earliest Neolithic peoples of the middle Elbe-Saale-Werra Valley and their implications for the origins of agro-pastoralism. Current evidence supports the view that body proportions are remarkably homogenous in terminal Pleistocene and early Holocene humans (Holliday, 1999). Hypothesised similarities in body proportions of LUP and Neolithic peoples of central Europe could equally reflect genetic diffusion and/or regional continuity. Nonetheless, this should not detract from the utility of such analyses and significant scope exists to explore potential changes within the MESV from the earliest Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age (c3700 yr). Body proportions are a robust alternative to cranio-metric “indices” of regional continuity.
posted
Even though Limb and craniofacial studies are stupid (as there are no consistent differences between Blacks and their Albinos - how could there be?) It just depends on which Black population you are using for comparison. And excuse me, but I got the impression that there was the suggestion that Blacks MIGRATED to Europe during the Mesolithic. If that be the case: what the Grimaldi of 45,000 B.C. wasn't Black?
Clyde, Grimaldi was Kushite?
Anyway, at least this one states the obvious:
"“Modern Europeans ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to Eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean on to the Middle East show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors ARE NOT CLOSELY RELATED TO THE MODERN INHABITANTS..."
Can anyone say IMMIGRANT: Hellene Latin Slav Germanic
quote:Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age peoples display elongated brachial and crural indices reminiscent of terminal Pleistocene and tropically adapted recent humans. These marked morphological changes likely reflect exogenous immigration during the terminal fourth millennium cal BC.
quote:We interpret marked changes in body proportions as reflecting the immigration of agro-pastoralists during the terminal fourth millennium BCE. These populations **retain** body proportions characteristic **of their terminal Pleistocene predecessors** with elongated brachial and crural indices.
^I don't know if I'd give them so much credit. They don't seem to be arguing for a direct migration of tropical Africans, or as they say, "tropically adapted recent humans". Obviously the above statement doesn't even make any sense. If all populations up to that point are recent, why not refer to the immigrants as "tropically adapted recent humans" instead of implying that they were just some relict population that retained archaic ancestral traits?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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The question is what are the root of the widespread black African affiliated cultures that spread by the Neolithic throughout Europe through Mesopotamia and the Zagros to Central Asia and China by the Neolithic and into early Polynesia and South America.
I am talking about the Blacks who entered Europe 6kya not the Grimaldi and Anu.
quote:We interpret marked changes in body proportions as reflecting the immigration of agro-pastoralists during the terminal fourth millennium BCE. These populations **retain** body proportions characteristic **of their terminal Pleistocene predecessors** with elongated brachial and crural indices.
This population represents the Kushites.
.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Even though Limb and craniofacial studies are stupid (as there are no consistent differences between Blacks and their Albinos - how could there be?) It just depends on which Black population you are using for comparison. And excuse me, but I got the impression that there was the suggestion that Blacks MIGRATED to Europe during the Mesolithic. If that be the case: what the Grimaldi of 45,000 B.C. wasn't Black?
Clyde, Grimaldi was Kushite?
Anyway, at least this one states the obvious:
"“Modern Europeans ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to Eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean on to the Middle East show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors ARE NOT CLOSELY RELATED TO THE MODERN INHABITANTS..."
Can anyone say IMMIGRANT: Hellene Latin Slav Germanic
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: One second here:
quote:Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age peoples display elongated brachial and crural indices reminiscent of terminal Pleistocene and tropically adapted recent humans. These marked morphological changes likely reflect exogenous immigration during the terminal fourth millennium cal BC.
quote:We interpret marked changes in body proportions as reflecting the immigration of agro-pastoralists during the terminal fourth millennium BCE. These populations **retain** body proportions characteristic **of their terminal Pleistocene predecessors** with elongated brachial and crural indices.
^I don't know if I'd give them so much credit. They don't seem to be arguing for a direct migration of tropical Africans, or as they say, "tropically adapted recent humans". Obviously the above statement doesn't even make any sense. If all populations up to that point are recent, why not refer to the immigrants as "tropically adapted recent humans" instead of implying that they were just some relict population that retained archaic ancestral traits?
Recent humans in physical anthropology speak is just another way of saying man since homosapiens. They also say "likely reflect exogenous immigration during the terminal fourth millennium cal BC." which is another clear way of stating outsiders came in during the end of the 4th millenium B.C. This marked change is similar to what earlier anthropologists found - populations decidedly similar to those of is East and Nilo-Saharan popoulations.
It is Ricaut and Waelkens that spoke of sub-Saharan populations dispersing in waves into the Near East and eastern Europe.
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that subSanaran genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic...."
From: "Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements"
Ricaut and Waelkens (2008) Human Biology
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quote:“The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians) , previously described virtually only in northeast Africa, upper Nile, gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been. Correlations between human-occupation sites and radiocarbon-dated climatic fluctuations in the eastern Sahara and Nile Valley during the Holocene provide a framework for interpreting the main southeast European centric distribution of E-V13. A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards. Hg E-M78* representatives, although rare overall, still occur in Egypt, which is a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated their regionally distinctive branches.
--Battaglia et al. 2008
Edit: Keep forgetting to post the full text for those who want to read the entire thing
posted
Wow...It sure didn't take those black people long to start morphing into albinos. They stampeded across Europe from Africa setting up copper and bronze shops everywhere,bringing in things like the wheel and other technologies, and yet nothing like it is found in Africa before or at the time of their great stampede across Europe. And then they all just magically morphed into albinos all within the matter of a few centuries. This is all very interesting indeed.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^I don't see what you are trying to say here.
Do you deny the diffusion of northeast Africans with sub-Saharan morphological traits into The Near East etc.,?
If so, I would like to see you provide a counter peer-reviewed studied to contradict it
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
^^Good data all. Does this then mean that the limb proportions correlate with what other scientists have found re skin color? That Europeans only became pale recently, a change from their tropical forbears as a response to cold adaptation? So the limb studies confirm the skin color studies?
So we have skin color, cranial and limb proportion data. Some on the web find this a "dangerous" line of research. It shows that the bringers of the Neolithic Revolution with its advances in animal domestication, agriculture, pottery, metallurgy and other technology were not the touted white cold-climate types of "bio-diversity" lore, but dark-skinned, tropical types. These data contradict the works of "heriditarian" and "bio-diversity" writers like Rushton, Lynn, Kanazawa, et al. who argue for the primacy of "cold climate" peoples not only peoples stretching into pre-history, but on "evolutionary" scales as well. But if this is so, should not the cold climate peoples have first developed advanced agriculture, metallurgy, crafts, animal domestication, weaponry etc etc?
A thorough debunking of assorted "bio-diversity" theories on this score is shown below..
"The authors' hypothesis that it was the challenges to human survival presented by cold, northern winters that resulted in higher IQs in Europe and East Asia is also inconsistent with the inconvenient locations of the first civilizations. Every foundational culture — the Egyptians, the Mesopotamians, the Indians, the Chinese, the Incas, the Mayans — arose in an area where winters were either mild or essentially non-existent, whereas, per our authors' proposal, we should expect that civilization would first appear in Scandanavia, Siberia, and Canada.
But in the recalcitrant world of historical reality, those places were quite the latecomers to civilized society, and their entrance therein did not take place until the influence of the tropical and semi-tropical trailblazers made its way to their laggard climes." [endquote]
ScienceDaily (Nov. 13, 2005) — The farmers who brought agriculture to central Europe about 7,500 years ago did not contribute heavily to the genetic makeup of modern Europeans, according to the first detailed analysis of ancient DNA extracted from skeletons of early European farmers.
The passionate debate over the origins of modern Europeans has a long history, and this work strengthens the argument that people of central European ancestry are largely the descendants of "Old Stone Age," Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who arrived in Europe around 40,000 years ago rather than the first farmers who arrived tens of thousands of years later during the Neolithic Age.
This paper appears in the 11 November 2005 issue of the journal Science published by AAAS the nonprofit science society.
The researchers from Germany, the United Kingdom and Estonia extracted and analyzed DNA from the mitochondria of 24 skeletons of early farmers from 16 locations in Germany, Austria and Hungary. Six of these 24 skeletons contain genetic signatures that are extremely rare in modern European populations. Based on this discovery, the researchers conclude that early farmers did not leave much of a genetic mark on modern European populations.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: ^^Good data all. Does this then mean that the limb proportions correlate with what other scientists have found re skin color? That Europeans only became pale recently, a change from their tropical forbears as a response to cold adaptation? So the limb studies confirm the skin color studies?
The information corresponds to what physical anthropologists like Brace have found that the ancestors of white Europeans so far found are not closely related to the black tropical dolichocephalic mesolithic and gracile neolithic tropical limbed people of Europe and North AFrica who built stone henge and its prototype at Nabta Playa.
The ancestors of modern Europeans were not prevalent in neolithic Europe or even mesolithic Europe and are traceable back tens of thousands of years both genetically and osteologically or phenotypically(whatever color they were). However, red hair dates back some 60,0000 years and as we have all read some other European features may go back to Neanderthaloids.
The ancestors of Basques and Germans and other lateral headed are not closely related to those of Somalians and Bushmen like with NEGROID FACIAL ASPECT people of the LBK and Anatolia who portrayed themselves as black.
This tudy also correlates with the fact that hairsute fair-skinned stocky non-tropically Europeans of Anatolia appear in neolithic rock art along side black tropically adapted people of neolithic and Mesolithic African dispersals with already distinct cultures.
There is also evidence that the black neolithic peoples lasted in a few places in Europe and Asia throughout the historical period until recent times. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^ Let it be known that before Europeans became pale of 'white' they weren't black either. According to experts like Jablonski they were likely already light complected, so it wasn't like they just changed skin color directly from black to white as some automatic ultra Glogger's rule happened as Mike would have you believe via albinism, anymore than a cold adapted population would automatically change their body structures to super-tropical builds via some automatic ultra Allen's rule as Simpleton would have one believe. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Why look at Neolithic Europe? Just look at Middle East/North Africa.
"The statues were discovered in 1984 at the prehistoric site of 'Ain Ghazal, located near Amman, the capital of Jordan. The settlement at 'Ain Ghazal was a village of farmers, hunters, and herders occupied between 7200 and 5000 B.C. E. during the Neolithic period (ca. 8500-4500 B.C.E.). Its inhabitants made objects for daily use, such as stone tools and weapons, and objects that seem to have served symbolic functions, such as small clay figurines of animals and humans. More sophisticated works of art have also been discovered at `Ain Ghazal: large, human-form statues and busts made of plaster, and faces in plaster, which had been modeled on human skulls." - From an Exhibition at the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery
Do they look "Negroid" ?
Neolithic skull from Jericho, modeled as a delicate sculpturine. Posts: 39 | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
Holy moses Batman the anicent Middle Easterners were alien greys some with two heads!!Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Crystall-Balls surely I jest^ but why not post data on the ancient peoples of Jericho instead of relying on art that is almost abstract and drawing conclusions about ethnicity and this skull falls well in the range of some Africans.. If I were you I would start off on the Natufian's remains instead of eyeballing non descript sculptures.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Who is mixed and who is not mixed?Africa like the rest of the globe is filled with folks of different phenotype and coloration some resulted from intermixing with other groups some not,Waris Dirie a Somali her people are generally reported to intermarry the least with others their features maybe due to local adaptation, but non the less wholly African in development.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Its not that hard to look up Somali genetics they are pretty mixed people.
Y DNA E1b1bla - Origins in Egypt and Libya.
In Somalis, the E1b1b1a genetic haplogroup also makes up a significant proportion of the paternal DNA of Ethiopians, Sudanese, Egyptians, Berbers, North African Arabs, as well as many Mediterranean and Balkan Europeans.
mtDNA M1 Haplogroup - Origins in Asia
Significant proportion of the maternal lineages of Somalis consists of the M1 haplogroup [Origin - Asia] which is common among Ethiopians and North Africans, particularly Egyptians and Algerians. M1 is believed to have originated in Asia.
"Somali, as a representative East African population, seem to have experienced a detectable amount of Caucasoid maternal influence... the proportion m of Caucasoid lineages in the Somali is m = 0.46 [46%]... Our results agree with the hypothesis of a maternal influence of Caucasoid lineages in East Africa, although its contribution seems to be higher than previously reported in mtDNA studies."
Overall, these genetic studies conclude that Somalis and their fellow Ethiopian and Eritrean Northeast African populations represent a unique and distinct biological group on the continent.
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posted
^M1 is African and at the time it emerged populations hadn't diverged into differentiated groups so even if it didn't emerge IN Africa it emerged among emigrant African people who simply stopped short of "Caucasian" territory and headed back to Africa..
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Its not that hard to look up Somali genetics they are pretty mixed people.
Of course its not that hard to look up because we presented it to you here a couple of times already, but you ignore it! Their genetics are overwhelmingly AFRICAN!
quote:Y DNA E1b1bla - Origins in Egypt and Libya.
Yes and Egypt and Libya are both in Africa NOT Eurasia. Also the ancestor of E1b1ba found in both Libya and Egypt which is E-M78 originated in Lake Nubia close to the Sudan whose ancestor in turn originated farther south in 'Sub-Sahara', so your point is null.
quote:In Somalis, the E1b1b1a genetic haplogroup also makes up a significant proportion of the paternal DNA of Ethiopians, Sudanese, Egyptians, Berbers, North African Arabs, as well as many Mediterranean and Balkan Europeans.
Correct. This haplogroup is AFRICAN and the only reason why non-African groups like Balkan Europeans and Arabs have it is because THEY are the ones who are mixed, you dummy!
quote:mtDNA M1 Haplogroup - Origins in Asia
Significant proportion of the maternal lineages of Somalis consists of the M1 haplogroup [Origin - Asia] which is common among Ethiopians and North Africans, particularly Egyptians and Algerians. M1 is believed to have originated in Asia.
Inaccurate. M1 is predominantly found in Africa only NOT Asia. Its resemblance to Asian M* only stems from common L3 ancestry which is still African. M1 by the way has its highest frequencies in the Horn so it likely originated there, so how you got the idea that it is immigrant to that region is beyond me.
quote:"Somali, as a representative East African population, seem to have experienced a detectable amount of Caucasoid maternal influence... the proportion m of Caucasoid lineages in the Somali is m = 0.46 [46%]... Our results agree with the hypothesis of a maternal influence of Caucasoid lineages in East Africa, although its contribution seems to be higher than previously reported in mtDNA studies."
More nonsense. There is no such thing as "caucasoid", if so can you please provide us with a valid definition? Let alone "caucasoid genes"! LOL
quote:Overall, these genetic studies conclude that Somalis and their fellow Ethiopian and Eritrean Northeast African populations represent a unique and distinct biological group on the continent.
LMAO There is nothing "unique" about East Africans, they are merely a substratum of the rest of Sub-Saharan African gene-pool. The only thing special about them is that Eurasians form a substratum of them since the first Eurasians were essentially East Africans who left the continent. Enough with the silly pseudo-anthropology. We want real scholarship here.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It's official Crystal_Balls is nothing more than an idiot follower of Dienekes Pontikos.
This moron claims that E1b1b is a "Mediterranean Caucasoid" lineage even though its origins are in Africa and Sub-Sahara no less far from the Mediterranean and its sibling is E1b1a which is the lineage associated with West and Central Africans!
He claims East Africans are "mixed" for having this AFRICAN lineage, but not the Southwest Asians and Europeans who carry it!
LOL The guy is a stooge and not a very bright one at that, but what do you expect. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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LOL. Nope, didn't you see the article I posted on E1b1b1a earlier in this thread? I'll repeat it:
quote:“The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians) , previously described virtually only in northeast Africa, upper Nile, gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been. Correlations between human-occupation sites and radiocarbon-dated climatic fluctuations in the eastern Sahara and Nile Valley during the Holocene provide a framework for interpreting the main southeast European centric distribution of E-V13. A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards. Hg E-M78* representatives, although rare overall, still occur in Egypt, which is a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated their regionally distinctive branches.
--Battaglia et al. 2008
E=M78 has an origins in southern Egypt/Sudan. Egypt and Libya are separated by a genetic discontinuity LOL
An the Somalis Y chromosomes, we have:
quote:We genotyped 45 biallelic markers and 11 STR systems on the Y chromosome in 201 male Somalis. In addition, 65 sub-Saharan Western Africans, 59 Turks and 64 Iraqis were typed for the biallelic Y chromosome markers. In Somalis, 14 Y chromosome haplogroups were identified including E3b1 (77.6%) and K2 (10.4%). The haplogroup E3b1 with the rare DYS19-11 allele (also called the E3b1 cluster italic gamma) was found in 75.1% of male Somalis, and 70.6% of Somali Y chromosomes were E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12, DYS437-14, DYS438-11 and DYS393-13. The haplotype diversity of eight Y-STRs ('minimal haplotype') was 0.9575 compared to an average of 0.9974 and 0.9996 in European and Asian populations. In sub-Saharan Western Africans, only four haplogroups were identified. The West African clade E3a was found in 89.2% of the samples and the haplogroup E3b1 was not observed. In Turks, 12 haplogroups were found including J2*(xJ2f2) (27.1%), R1b3*(xR1b3d, R1b3f) (20.3%), E3b3 and R1a1*(xR1a1b) (both 11.9%). In Iraqis, 12 haplogroups were identified including J2*(xJ2f2) (29.7%) and J*(xJ2) (26.6%). The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population – closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya – with predominant E3b1 cluster italic gamma lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000–5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa.
--Sanchez et al. 2005
Although the wording in Sanchez et al. is terrible, as Somalia is in sub-Saharan Africa, so that means that 80% of Somalis males had Y chromosomes from sub-Saharan Africa, while only 15% of males studied had Eurasian Y chromosomes, you should get the point.
quote:mtDNA M1 Haplogroup - Origins in Asia
The following was posted quite recently
quote: Macrohaplogroup M in Arabia Macrohaplogroup M is particularly abundant and diverse in South and Southeast Asia, reaching frequencies above 60% in some regions (Metspalu et al., 2004). However, it is practically absent in western Asia (Quintana-Murci et al., 2004). In Africa, only one autochthonous basal branch of M, named M1, has been detected (Quintana-Murci et al., 1999). In this continent it has a predominant northern distribution. M1 is particularly abundant in Ethiopia (20%). From there, frequencies significantly diminish forming decreasing gradients westwards and southwards. It has been proposed that the presence of M1 in Africa and surrounding Mediterranean areas can be explained as result of two expansion centers situated in East and Northwest Africa which are marked by the radiation of subhaplogroups M1a and M1b respectively (Olivieri et al., 2006; González et al., 2007). Although the coalescence age of M1 is Paleolithic it seems that the most important expansions occurred in Neolithic times when the Sahara was a more hospitable region. Some authors consider that the presence of M1 in Africa supports the idea that macrohaplogroup M originated in eastern Africa and was carried towards Asia with the out of Africa expansion (Quintana-Murci et al., 1999), others think that the distribution of M1 in Africa traces an early human backflow to this Continent from Asia (Maca-Meyer et al., 2001; Olivieri et al., 2006; González et al., 2007).
In Arabia, M lineages account for 7% of the total and half of them belong to the M1 African clade. M1 frequencies are significantly greater in western Arabian regions than in the East (Abu-Amero et al., 2008). As the majority of the M1 haplotypes in Arabia belong to the East African M1a subclade, it seems that, likewise L lineages, [b]the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards
--Vicente M. Cabrera et al. 2009
quote:It's official Crystal_Balls is nothing more than an idiot follower of Dienekes Pontikos.
LOL. He is also a wikipedia copier Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
The coalescence age of the African haplogroup M1 is younger than those for other M Asiatic clades. In contradiction to the hypothesis of an eastern Africa origin for modern human expansions out of Africa, the most ancestral M1 lineages have been found in Northwest Africa and in the Near East, instead of in East Africa. The M1 geographic distribution and the relative ages of its different subclades clearly correlate with those of haplogroup U6, for which an Eurasian ancestor has been demonstrated.
posted
I'll give you this one clue. It appears that you left this out of boldtype, which all of us can only wonder why.lol...There's really more to it,but I want to see how my two laboratory rats are going to respond to this.lol....do see below:
Although the coalescence age of M1 is Paleolithic it seems that the most important expansions occurred in Neolithic times when the Sahara was a more hospitable region.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ Why bother? According to Cabrera's latest paper, he agrees that M1 originated in the Horn of Africa. The Sahara is in Africa. It's as easy as 2 times 1. Surely the Simpleton couldn't be this stupid? Could she?? Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ Lmfao @ you people get over it M1 originated in Asia and E1b1bla originated in North Africa and neither of those people are Negroid.
Afrocentrics are getting way to desperate now somehow you people believe Caucasoid features of East Africans appeared out of thin air without any Asiatic influence Bahaha.
Stop using them as poster child for Afrocentric Propaganda they have their own identity and culture and by most Anthropological and genetic studies they are considered a unique and distinct biological group of people on the continent.
Posts: 39 | Registered: Apr 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Crystal_Ball: ^ Lmfao @ you people get over it M1 originated in Asia and E1b1bla originated in North Africa and neither of those people are Negroid.
Afrocentrics are getting way to desperate now somehow you people believe Caucasoid features of East Africans appeared out of thin air without any Asiatic influence Bahaha.
Stop using them as poster child for Afrocentric Propaganda they have their own identity and culture and by most Anthropological and genetic studies they are considered a unique and distinct biological group of people on the continent.
What I like to know from you is. How did the Asiatics you mentioned get their "so-called caucasoid" features?
Can give a physical anthropological description?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ LOL Indeed. So are we to believe "caca-soid" features appeared out of thin air among Eurasians?? How do any facial features come about, fool??
quote:Originally posted by Crystal_Balls: ^ Lmfao @ you people get over it M1 originated in Asia and E1b1bla originated in North Africa and neither of those people are Negroid.
You're right about one thing. E1b1b1a did originate in North Africa, but what's your point? It's still Africa, plus the area where it's said to originate is in Nubia in southernmost Egypt close to the Sudanese border. The ancestor of this haplogroup E1b1b* is still Sub-Saharan in origin and is a sibling of E1b1a which is associated with West and Central Africans.
As for M1, you can read more about that in this thread here.
quote:Afrocentrics are getting way to desperate now somehow you people believe Caucasoid features of East Africans appeared out of thin air without any Asiatic influence Bahaha.
Read the first sentences of this post. Since when do Asiatics have to do with Cay-zoid features or any features for that matter??
quote:Stop using them as poster child for Afrocentric Propaganda they have their own identity and culture and by most Anthropological and genetic studies they are considered a unique and distinct biological group of people on the continent.
Who is 'them'? You mean East Africans?? Exactly what is so "distinct" or "unique" about them?! They are Africans who are closely related to and form continuity with the rest of Africans! And last time I checked 'Afrocentric' by definition means centered on AFRICA. So how is this "propaganda" as opposed to FACT?! LMAO
You are an idiot.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Crystal_Ball: ^ Lmfao @ you people get over it M1 originated in Asia and E1b1bla originated in North Africa and neither of those people are Negroid.
Of course it originated in north Africa, SUDAN/Southern Egypt north Africa. Not Egypt/Libya, that's impossible as northeast Africa is genetically separated from northwest Africa. How can you have genetically separated populations both being Caucasian if the latter is the one with significant and ancient Eurasian ancestry?
Yelling Negroid is a strawman.
quote:Afrocentrics are getting way to desperate now somehow you people believe Caucasoid features of East Africans appeared out of thin air without any Asiatic influence Bahaha.
Idiot. East African features are a result of in situ evolution. West and Central Africans can have similar features in similar environments
quote:Stop using them as poster child for Afrocentric Propaganda they have their own identity and culture and by most Anthropological and genetic studies they are considered a unique and distinct biological group of people on the continent.
Who said they are considered a unique and discrete biological group? Did I not just show you the genetic evidence that Somalis are a subset of East Africans? How can that be "distinct and unique"? All Africans are connected via PN2 if you didn't know Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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Analysis of 29 Y-chromosome SNPs in a single multiplex useful to predict the geographic origin of male lineages M. Brio´n et al. 2006
"The major Y-chromosome haplogroup typing kit seems to have utility to make inferences about the possible geographic origin of any sample of interest (Table 1).With this first panel of SNPs, it can be possible to discriminate only between the major human groups present all around the world. It is evident, however, that a Y haplotype based prediction will always be limited to the elucidation of the patrilineage and thus could be quite misleading regarding the phenotype of a given individual. It cannot be excluded that a person exhibiting a European phenotype may carry a sub-Saharan or Asian Y-chromosome which has been passed on over many generations."
posted
^ Yes. The converse is also true. You can have people who look stereotypically "negro" yet carry European lineages.
This is besides the point however that Cavilli Sforza's findings on the European gene pool still hold true: "Europeans are two-thirds Asian and one-third African". Yet the Crystal_Balls keeps yelling about Africans being "mixed". Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Crystal_Ball: Bhaha more Afrocentric lies.
Why look at Neolithic Europe? Just look at Middle East/North Africa.
"The statues were discovered in 1984 at the prehistoric site of 'Ain Ghazal, located near Amman, the capital of Jordan. The settlement at 'Ain Ghazal was a village of farmers, hunters, and herders occupied between 7200 and 5000 B.C. E. during the Neolithic period (ca. 8500-4500 B.C.E.). Its inhabitants made objects for daily use, such as stone tools and weapons, and objects that seem to have served symbolic functions, such as small clay figurines of animals and humans. More sophisticated works of art have also been discovered at `Ain Ghazal: large, human-form statues and busts made of plaster, and faces in plaster, which had been modeled on human skulls." - From an Exhibition at the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery
Do they look "Negroid" ?
Neolithic skull from Jericho, modeled as a delicate sculpturine.
Somalians and other Cushites weren't called "the Mediterranean Race" by Sergi and others for nothing.
Iraqw woman - Cushite of Kenya
Their features were not different from that specialized types that appeared along the Mediterranean coastal area as represented by Bronze Age (Chalcolithic Naqqada)and Pre pottery Neolithic as at Ain Ghazal in Jordan. The pastoral herders and nomads of the Levant during that period and those of the deserts of Arabia and the Sahara were all one and the same black people.
I would like to see anyone find a modern Levant person with nose as small and delicate as many of the modern Somali and other Cushites.
Dijibouti women of the Horn
YOU WON'T.
Axumite head
It may not look Negroid but it sure was black. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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