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I know this issue has been discussed before, but I am continuing my debate with these people at the CivFanatics forum, and they insist that Copts (who they think are pure-blooded AEs) look like this:
Do Copts really look like this, or was the person who made the collage cherry-picking photos of the whitest-looking Copts?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Copts vary. The population, in the Western case, would not be considered white. That includes the light skinned ones. Their Christian faith would make it easier for the group to associate with whites, but that wouldn't apply to their Muslim counterparts.
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quote:Originally posted by Dirk8: Fool, I think King is talking about Egyptian Copts, not Ethiopian Copts! [/QB]
They're Egyptian Copts you racist, moron. Atleast According to the websites I found them on.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Dirk8: If you're even a little intelligent, you would know that Egyptians Never Dress like these people you have selected. That is why the Afronuts are considered unworthy of any meaningful debate with the mainstream folks.
I'm not an Egyptian so I will have to rely on Egyptians for info on authentic Egyptian images.
Perhaps Ausar can provide a more neutral insight on the images.
You may be correct but because of your trolling I don't trust you. Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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Actually, I posted some pictures of Copts in a thread entitled Do you hate these people. Most of the people presented neither look like western Africans nor like ''white'' Europeans. Yes, there are many Copts who would be considered white but most look like Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. Many would even be considered ''black'' by the western sense of the word. As a Coptic Christian, I can assure you I am not white.
Frank Joseph Yurco View profile More options Apr 24 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology From: fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu (Frank Joseph Yurco) Date: 1998/04/24 Subject: Re: The Royal Mummies Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author What the Coptic correspondent stated is true certainly of Copts found in the northern part of Egypt, and in Middle Egypt. However, there is a large Coptic population in Luxor, as well as Aswan, and those Copts are brown complexioned just like the other, Muslim Egyptians of those parts of Egypt. So, it is not true that all Copts are light complexioned.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
-- Frank Joseph Yurco fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Copts are not a racial or genetic group, it is a religious grouping. Their commonality stems from their Greek Christianity.
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Bogle - You really haven't been here long enough for that.
Please wait until you have actually tried to contribute something to the forum. Of course it will be completely stupid, and then of course, I will rip you a new asshole. THEN and only THEN, will you then have the right to make snide little girl comments.
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Actually, the Coptic Christian church is not apart of the Greek Orthodox. A schism exists between the two churches and have nothing to do with each other.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually, I posted some pictures of Copts in a thread entitled Do you hate these people. Most of the people presented neither look like western Africans nor like ''white'' Europeans. Yes, there are many Copts who would be considered white but most look like Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. Many would even be considered ''black'' by the western sense of the word. As a Coptic Christian, I can assure you I am not white.
Frank Joseph Yurco View profile More options Apr 24 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology From: fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu (Frank Joseph Yurco) Date: 1998/04/24 Subject: Re: The Royal Mummies ---- What the Coptic correspondent stated is true certainly of Copts found in the northern part of Egypt, and in Middle Egypt. However, there is a large Coptic population in Luxor, as well as Aswan, and those Copts are brown complexioned just like the other, Muslim Egyptians of those parts of Egypt. So, it is not true that all Copts are light complexioned.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
-- Frank Joseph Yurco fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu
Indeed. Good quote by Yurco, a respected Egyptologist.
Copts differ, and genetic data links some of them with the Sudan. quote:
"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation, something that conforms both to recorded history and to Egyptian mythology." Source: (Hisham Y. Hassan 1, Peter A. Underhill 2, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza 2, Muntaser E. Ibrahim 1. (2008). Y-chromosome variation among Sudanese: Restricted gene flow, concordance with language, geography, and history. Am J Phys Anthropology, 2008.)
Older analyses also link Copts with "darker" groups. Of course in today's Egypt with its heavy Arab influx these older links have weakened, but they are still part of the historical record.
"In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human")
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually, the Coptic Christian church is not apart of the Greek Orthodox. A schism exists between the two churches and have nothing to do with each other.
LOL poor Mike consistency was never his strong suite.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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A European obeservation of the Copts Nepoleonanic era..Volney had gone to Egypt between 1783 and 1785, while Negro slavery flourished. He reported as follows on the Egyptian race, the very race that had produced the Pharaohs: the Copts.
{quote} ... all have a bloated face, puffed up eyes, flat nose, thick lips; in a word, the true face of the mulatto. I was tempted to attribute it to the climate, but when I visited the Sphinx, its appearance gave me the key to the riddle. On seeing that head, typically Negro in all its features, I remembered the remarkable passage where Herodotus says: "As for me, I judge the Colchians to be a colony of the Egyptians because, like them, they are black with woolly hair. ..." In other words, the ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native-born Africans. That being so, we can see how their blood, mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost the intensity of its original color, while retaining nonetheless the imprint of its original mold. We can even state as a general principle that the face is a kind of monument able, in many cases, to attest or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of peoples. {endquote}
After illustrating this proposition by citing the case of Normans who still resembled the Danes 900 years after the conquest of Nor- mandy, Volney adds:
{quote} But returning to Egypt, the lesson she teaches history contains many reflections for philosophy. What a subject for meditation, to see the present barbarism and ignorance of the Copts, descendants of the alliance between the profound genius of the Egyptians and
{p. 28} the brilliant mind of the Greeks! Just think that this race of black men, today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences, and even the use of speech! Just imagine, finally, that it is in the midst of peoples who call themselves the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that one has approved the most barbarous slavery and questioned whether black men have the same kind of intelligence as Whites. www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs.../1624 - Cached - Similar
The same can be found in Diops classic African origin of civilization.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Get lost you lonely pathetic pathological liar... sucicide...."THINK ABOUT IT"... ...^^
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually, the Coptic Christian church is not apart of the Greek Orthodox. A schism exists between the two churches and have nothing to do with each other.
ausar - I believe my statement was "Their commonality stems from their Greek Christianity".
I don't see "part of" or "same as" in my statement.
If I said that the commonality of Australian and American law was in it's British heritage, would you also assume that I was saying that Australia and America are "Part" of Britain?
Bogle the Beagle is clueless, you should be able to read better.
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^ no matter how you try to save face fact remains Coptic isn't Greek Christianity. lol
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Beagle - What, are you auditioning to be a part of the Dirkie and Afronut cabal of ignorance?
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What fughking "WE". Who are you kidding? Never came across an Egyptian who dis-liked other Africans. Most prefer to be called Arab.
Even some of the other north Africans I came across, Algerian, Moroccan and the few Kuwaitees showed affinity to us diasporans.
You are no fughking rab. neither egyptian. You are not even one person.
May be one or two white boys getting their jollies off.
quote:Originally posted by Dirk8: We, Egyptians destroyed Israel's Bar-Lev Fortification Line on October 6, 1973 and made Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan resign the following year.
This year, we focus our attention on the easy task of destroying the insidous Afronuts, once and for all. ;
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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xyyman - The really funny thing about White propaganda, is that they do not discriminate with it, it's not like they take White kids aside and tell them: hey look this is the sh1t that we are feeding them, but you shouldn't believe it; they tell the same thing to everybody.
So you have dumb-assed White kids on Jersey farms or Simi Valley suburbs, thinking that there is a whole world of almost White, non-Whites just waiting and willing to do anything for White acceptance. Their ignorance is a joy to behold, as is Afronuts and Dirkies new found Blackness. When you have White kids THAT stupid in America, then you know that America is in really serious trouble.
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Coptic Christianity and Greek Orthodoxty did not stem from the same source. Christinaity in Egypt was introduced by St. Mark. In later periods the church remained controversial because of their views on the divinity of Christ. Thus, both are completely different from each other. If you know of any similairites then please feel free to mention them.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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ausar - The fact is that I don't give a sh1t either way; but I do like to be accurate. Please tell me which parts you feel are inaccurate.
According to the Coptic church, Saint Mark was born in the Pentapolis of North Africa. This tradition adds that he returned to Pentapolis later in life after being sent by Saint Paul to Colosse (Colossians 4:10) and serving with him in Rome (Phil 24; 2 Tim 4:11) ; from Pentapolis he made his way to Alexandria. When Mark returned to Alexandria, the people there are said to have resented his efforts to turn them away from the worship of their traditional Hellenistic gods. In AD 68 they placed a rope around his neck and dragged him through the streets until he was dead.
So, from the above I take it that everyone concerned is a Greek or a Roman, since Copts are not Catholics that leaves what?? How about you, do you see any other people mentioned???
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ausar - To further illuminate for you, Marks running buddy Paul, was the one who brought Whites into the Christian church. That was his whole function in life, bringing Whites in that is. Against Jesus' wishes I might add. It took a special dispensation from James, AFTER Jesus' death, no doubt with pressure from the Romans, to get it done.
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ONE dead give away. He speaks about the Arab/Isreal conflict and there is no passion. His weak ass attempt at enthusiasm on such a fiery subject.
Most Arabs, excuse the term Mike, either don't talk about it, or are blowing themselves and others up about it. Those who don't talk about it do so because they wish to remain calm and don't want to be stereotyped as a terrorist.
Me, as an Afrocentric can get worked up(and it is not my fight) because of the parallels with South Africa, even with the treatment if Mexicans here. Less than 150 yo these people owned half the current US. That is how quickly populations can change.
My brother, visited the pyramids less than a year ago. One of my old squeeze also. The common theme is the nubians don't like to be classified as the foreigners ie Arabs.
Is it all show???
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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xyyman - A Black man really shouldn't have a dog in that fight. Black lands went from one to the other. For sure, over many Black bodies.
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Rev. Energy - Are you lurking? What's the story with Paul, coming from Cilicia at that time, he could be Black or White. You got any info? I'm going with White until proved otherwise, his actions and motivations seem very fishy. It seems strange that as soon as Jesus brother James dies, all of a sudden Christianity becomes a White religion, headed by Whites and headquartered in a land conquered by Whites - Rome.
Saint Paul, the Apostle
born AD 10?, Tarsus in Cilicia [Turkey] - died 67?, Rome
Original name Saul of Tarsus, 1st-century Hebrew who, after first being a bitter enemy of Christianity, later became an important figure in its history.
Converted only a few years after the death of Jesus, he became the leading Apostle (missionary) of the new movement and played a decisive part in extending it beyond the limits of Judaism to become a worldwide religion. His surviving letters are the earliest extant Christian writings.
Paul himself claimed the title of Apostle, apparently on the ground that he had seen the Lord and received a commission directly from him. This appears to be in agreement with the condition in Acts that a newly appointed Apostle should be capable of giving eyewitness testimony to the Lord's Resurrection. According to some early Christian writers however, some were called apostles after the period covered by the New Testament.
In the first Christian generation, authority in the church lay either in the kinsmen of Jesus or in those whom he had commissioned as Apostles and missionaries. The Jerusalem church under James, the brother of Jesus, was the mother church. Paul admitted that if they had refused to grant recognition to his Gentile converts; he would have labored in vain. If there was an attempt to establish a hereditary family overlordship in the church (by James’ descendants), it did not succeed, although among the Gentile congregations, the Apostles sent by Jesus enjoyed supreme authority. As long as the Apostles lived, there existed a living authoritative voice to which appeal could be made. But once they all had died, there was an acute question: who is in charge? The earliest documents of the 3rd. and 4th. Christian generations are mainly concerned with this issue: what is the authority of the ministerial hierarchy?Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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For the most part you are right,Mike. I don't believe that the initial movement of Christianity was not indigenous but many indigenous Egyptians did embrace the concepts because they saw the similairites between Christian and their own concept of Ausar(Osiris). The first christians in Upper Egypt had their own brand of Christianity which was based primarily off monasiticism. (such as Shenoute,Anthony and others)
Also, the Copts subscribe to a doctrine set in place by St Cyril. So maybe or maybe not there were some Hellonistic influence but overall Coptic Christians and Greek Orthodoxy are not really the same. Like I mentioned a doctorial schism exists between the two.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Bogle is right about this check out Ashra Kwesi's books.lectures and videos..plus all the Kemetic symbolism in America and around the world.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Doesn't anybody on the forum bother to give it some thought, rather than post the first thing that comes to their mind?? And another thing, sourcing a video or a book without quoting from it is really bad form. What, is everybody supposed to just run out to buy the book, or watch the video?
What part Egyptian and Sumerian, and even Zoroastrianism religion played in the development of the Hebrew religion is another issue entirely.
Here we are discussing is the genesis of what is called the Coptic religion in Egypt. And even that is a misnomer. Copt is a post 7th. century Arab word for Egyptians. By the time of Christ, Egypt had been a Greek country for over three hundred years. (As a point of reference, America has been a White country for about the same time). And before that, it had been a Persian or Berber (Libyan) country for almost as long. Point being that authentic Egyptian had been long lost.
That which we call Copt, was simply an acceptance of reality for Egyptians (both real and imagined). They had to learn how to write their language in the script of their rulers. And for the Greeks, it was a way to bring everyone into the fold.
The Egyptian language began to be written using the Greek alphabet in the first century. The new writing system became the Coptic script, an adapted Greek alphabet with the addition of six to seven signs from the demotic script to represent Egyptian sounds the Greek language did not have.
But though Coptic IS Egyptian, the genesis of the Egyptian Christian religion does not appear to be.
Under late Roman rule, Diocletian persecuted many Egyptian (Greeks and everyone not Roman), converts to the new Christian faith. This forced new converts to flee to the Egyptian deserts. In time, the growth of these communities generated the need to write Christian Greek instructions in the Egyptian language.
The early Fathers of the Egyptian Church, such as Anthony the Great, Pachomius, Macarius and Athanasius, (these guys sound Greek to me), who otherwise usually wrote in Greek, addressed some of their works to the Egyptian monks in Egyptian. The Egyptian language, now written in the Coptic alphabet, flourished in the second and third centuries.
However, it was not until Shenouda the Archimandrite that Coptic became a fully standardized literary language based on the Sahidic dialect. Shenouda's native Egyptian tongue and knowledge of Greek and rhetoric gave him the necessary tools to elevate Coptic, in content and style, to a literary height nearly equal to the position of the Egyptian language in pre-Christian Egypt.
BTW - The Mysteries of Osiris is a book series by Frenchman Christian Jacq. These books are typically classed as historical fiction; many of them delve into the supernatural powers given to the Pharaoh, however, and could be considered fantasy by loose definition.
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Local legends aside, the genesis of the Christian religion is from AE. So-called "Greek Chritianity" is nothing more than the Mysteries of Osiris. Your attempt to fictionalise it only confirms your amateur "scholarship" Mike.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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osirion - You are only adding to the ignorance of people; especially the weak minded like our old friend Sundjata who has morphed into Bogle the Beagle, and who thinks Hebrews had no history other than that which was related to Egypt, (a mind can be a terrible thing).
What you are saying is equally ridiculous; according to you, Copts are really Christian Hebrews who moved to, and crossed-bred with Egyptians.
And the only near descendants to the Egyptians are the Haratin of North Africa, who are in fact the original Berbers.
Very neat scenario, all the Blacks in Egypt came from somewhere else, thus by default, Copts who are at least part Egyptian, have to be accepted as the true representatives of Ancient Egyptians.
Well, I am not surprised by that pile of Bullsh1t, the Turks have been feeding the world similar sh1t for centuries. Just one question, has anyone passed this nonsense under the noses of Egypt's Blacks (curious to know if they pass out from the stench).
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Black Egyptians? Aren't most Black Egyptians Copts? Likely to be closely related to Haratins and of the same origin - Nubia. Remember, Mediterranean people have a recent Sub-Saharan origin - likely Nubian.
This is clearly what genetic research shows.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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^Sorry pal, that bullsh1t doesn't fly. Please see my new post "Who are these Modern-day Egyptians? by Moustafa Gadalla".
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^ I don't buy into this Turk conspiracy theory stuff. I would agree that I think that the Fellahin and the Black Copts of Egypt are the best representatives of the ancients but its hard to say.
So much mixture.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Copts are descended from Greek and other populations and Egyptians. Greek thought played a tremendous role in the development of Christianity in Egypt and elsewhere in the East. And there were many sects and branches of Greek thought that caused many of the early controversies in Christianity, like Adoptionism and Gnosticism. But at the same token these heresies came about as CERTAIN Greek influenced theological ideas becamed "doctrine" while the others were labeled heresy. Generally all of it comes from the same body of Greek theological discourse which in turn was inherited from more ancient traditions in Africa and the Levant. The image of Christ is based on the image of Serapis which was a Greek deity, but the image of Christ in the West we see today is also likely heavily influenced by Zoaraster in Persia. Greeks were a major force in the Byzantine Empire and they had a major influence in the spread of Christianity throughout the Eastern Empire. Many of the early Christian fathers whose works define much of what we call Christian doctrine were Greeks and lived in and around Northern Africa.
Keep in mind that there were also Africans in this early Christian period, but the doctrine was primarily defined by non Africans.
posted
Nice post Doug: - From the early Christianity link: Quote - "In 70 the Second Temple was destroyed, and in c. 135 Jews were expelled from the renamed pagan city after the Bar Kokhba revolt. Among those who left the city were most of the Christian population. Following this time, early Church historian Eusebius of Caesarea records that ethnically Jewish leadership of the church in Jerusalem (literally those "of the circumcision") was replaced by Gentile leadership."
Isn't it easier and clearer to just say "the Black Hebrews were replaced by White Greeks"?Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: A History of Christianity in Egypt The Theologians
Perhaps the greatest contribution of Egypt to early Christianity was the Catechetical School of Alexandria, called the Didascalia. The oldest school of Christian religion in the world, it was founded around AD 190 by the scholar Pantaenus, who became its first dean. It soon proved itself to be the most important institution of religious learning at the time. Alexandria had always been on the forefront of great thought, and with the Didascalia, it had moved into the sphere of religious thinking. Many bishops of the Christian Church, both in Egypt and abroad, were educated at the Didascalia under such great theologians as Clement, Origen (called the "Father of Theology"), Didymus the Blind, and Athenagoras. Even Saint Jerome, the man who translated the Bible into Latin, visited the school to exchange ideas and converse and debate with the great Christian scholars of his time. The Didascalia gave Christian thinkers the opportunity to discuss and interpret their beliefs amongst the philosophical and intellectual environment of Alexandria.
But the school was not limited simply to the study of Christianity, nor was it limited to Christians. Science, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy, and medicine were only a few of the subjects taught. Additionally, many Greek and Roman students and scholars, who held to their own religions, attended the school. The Didascalia was open to everyone who wanted to learn. Catechumens (followers of Christianity who had not yet been baptized) studied alongside members of the clergy and students of Greek philosophy. Even blind students were able to attend and learn, thanks to a raised-alphabet system using carved wood, fifteen centuries before Braille.
According to tradition, Saint Mark founded the original Christian school as a tool for instructing new converts, and it was this school that Pantaenus expanded on to create his Didascalia. Immediately the school established itself as a powerhouse of theological studies. Under the supervision of Pantaenus and his assistant Clement (who would later succeed him as dean), the New Testament was translated from Aramaic and Greek into Coptic, the language of the Egyptian Christians. Classes were taught in Greek and Coptic so that anyone who wanted to could learn how to read, opening up the scriptures to all Christians in the area. The effectiveness and fame of the Didascalia is apparent in the fact that many of its faculty and finest students also became Popes of the Egyptian Church.
For centuries the Didascalia was the seat of Christian learning. After the Council of Chalcedon the Emperors of Constantinople, as part of their persecution against the Egyptian Christians, or Copts, ordered the closing of the school and carried away most of the books. Rather than let this put a damper on their learning, the Coptic Church simply transferred its school to the Monastery of St. Macarius in the Wadi el-Natroun desert. This was yet another persecution weathered by the school and the Christians of Egypt, having survived through those of the Roman emperors Septimus, Decius, Diocletian, and many others.
One of the greatest members of the school was Clement, who succeeded Pantaenus as dean. Clement is most famous for his Trilogy, a lengthy three-volume work in the style of similar works issued by the Greek philosophers. The first volume, the Protreptikos (Exhortation), was an invitation to conversion; the second was the Paidagogos (Tutor), a manual of Christian ethics and morals; and the third volume, the Stromateis (Miscellanies), was a long and rambling work on just about every subject Clement could think of. Clement's whole thought was that Christian theology and Greek philosophy could be combined and reconciled to yield a method of scholarship unmatched by the rest of the world. His ability to refute his critics with quotations and allusions to the classic poets and philosophers made him a powerful force for intellectual Christianity, as many of the non-Christians of his day saw Christians as a largely uncultured and unintelligent group. Clement's writings also helped new converts feel at home in their new religion by showing that one could be learned and intelligent and be a Christian at the same time, a factor important at a time when the intellectual elite were all throughout Alexandria.
Another great Egyptian theologian was Origen, Clement's successor. While Clement had been a convert, Origen was born into Christianity, the son of devout Christian parents. The death of his father in 203 during one of the many persecutions gave him a bitter hatred of the established state religions, which combined with a rare talent for philosophical debate and a thorough knowledge of his theology to create an intellectual force unmatched by his peers. He is also said to have had a eidetic memory, and so was able to quote at length from scriptures, from the works of the philosophers, and from the classics when constructing his arguments. After the death of his father, he was taken in by a rich Christian woman, an arrangement he liked not in the least, as she harbored Gnostic beliefs that Origen was adamantly against. Shortly after he left the house and set up his own school and began to lecture on Christianity as well as on philosophy, like Clement, he was able to combine the two. An anti-Christian riot in 215 forced him to leave Egypt and take refuge in Palestine, but Demetrius, Pope of Alexandria, convinced him to come back and become the head of the Didascalia two years later.
The Didascalia is a valuable part of Christian history, but it has no less a bearing on the present, as it is still very much alive. The Theological College of the Catechetical School of Alexandria was re-founded in 1893 and today has campuses in Cairo, New Jersey and Los Angeles.
Basically they laid the foundation of Christian doctrine based on 'theological' argument. In other words they made it up using a hodge podge of philosophical, religious, cosmological and spiritual concepts. As a matter of fact most of their philosophical arguments were in the form of "the Apologies of the Early Christian Fathers", where they had to argue why Christianity was not simply made up from older religions. This is in addition to the various debates and arguments over what should be considered Christian doctrine to begin with.
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Doug is correct. Coptic is merely a Christian denomination that began in Egypt and spread throughout the rest of northeast Africa through Sudan and Ethiopia. Anyone in Egypt who became Christian was a Copt not just indigenous Egyptians and so it was true for Syrians, Greeks, Romans etc. By and large the Coptic communities in Egypt are no different in appearance from the greater Muslim communities. Thus, Sa'idi Copts are no more black than Sa'idi Muslims. The converse is true with fairskinned peoples in Delta cities.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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No Doug, I didn't ask for the Greek theologians or historical figures who were involved in early Chritainity, I asked for you to define this "Greek thought" that was suppose to have played a "tremendous role" in the development of Christianity in Egypt. What is this "Greek thought"?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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In my opinion the Copts, especially the priests, look more mixed with Greeks than anyone else. Again, I believe part of this is due to the history and role of Greek thinkers in Christian doctrine and Egypt in particular.
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Doug instead of spamming the thread in your signature style, please outline this "Greek thought" that was to have such a tremendous influence on early church. I am getting from your constant editting (your attempt to indirectly answer my question) that it is "proper argumentation" i.e. rationalism: logical deductive arguments from first principles. Is this the "Greek thought" you are referring?
quote:This is in addition to the various debates and arguments over what should be considered Christian doctrine to begin with.
If what constitutes "Christrian doctrine" is up for debate because it's important concepts are so similar to other concepts that predate it then couldn't this be said of so-called "Greek thought" as well? So again I ask, what is "Greek thought" Doug? Come on don't run away.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Doug is correct. Coptic is merely a Christian denomination that began in Egypt and spread throughout the rest of northeast Africa through Sudan and Ethiopia. Anyone in Egypt who became Christian was a Copt not just indigenous Egyptians and so it was true for Syrians, Greeks, Romans etc. By and large the Coptic communities in Egypt are no different in appearance from the greater Muslim communities. Thus, Sa'idi Copts are no more black than Sa'idi Muslims. The converse is true with fairskinned peoples in Delta cities.
Exactly plus the notion that the Copts are the purest Egyptians may not be true...The closest to the Ancient population are the Rual Sa-idid Egyptians.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Nice post Doug: - From the early Christianity link: Quote - "In 70 the Second Temple was destroyed, and in c. 135 Jews were expelled from the renamed pagan city after the Bar Kokhba revolt. Among those who left the city were most of the Christian population. Following this time, early Church historian Eusebius of Caesarea records that ethnically Jewish leadership of the church in Jerusalem (literally those "of the circumcision") was replaced by Gentile leadership."
Isn't it easier and clearer to just say "the Black Hebrews were replaced by White Greeks"?
The White Greeks were likely converts by the early Hebrew Christians like Paul and other Jews that chose to accept Christ after the crucifixion. Read Acts and you will see that the Hebrews traveled and spread the doctrine to many Greeks and Greek speaking people.(Athenians, Ephesians, Macedonians.etc.)Also like Doug said the image of Christ as we know it comes from the image of Serapis....
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The image of Christ is based on the image of Serapis which was a Greek deity,
Doug, I thought Serapis was a syncretic Hellenistic-Egyptian deity? Sorry Doug, you have to cross out that "Greek" influence. But I'm still waiting on you to outline this "Greek thought" you suggest had a tremendous impact throught the ancient world.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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