posted
great picture doug the syria sunni viligaer look like me i wonder if he is e3b3 like me it does exist in syria mainly on the coast great much apricate it ps. i mean the third picture under the picture of the iraninan visiting in syria e3b1c1
Posts: 371 | From: egypt | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Would a better question be how many in Moorish Spain were Sudan?
The Moors actually seemed to look up to the Sudan the way Ibn Khaldun describes it Page 99 from Ibn Khaldun, Abu’l-Hasan is the king of Morocco
quote:Sultan Abu’l-Hasan was well known for his ostentatious ways and his presumption to vie with the mightiest monarchs and adopt their customs in exchanging gifts with their peers and counterparts and dispatching emissaries to distant kings and far frontiers. In his time the king of Mali was the greatest of the kings of the Sudan and the nearest to his kingdom in the Maghrib. Mali was 100 stages distant from the southern frontiers of his realms
posted
Sudan was a name for areas with blacks in Africa. Therefore West Africa was also considered as Sudan by some Muslim scholars. It has nothing to do with the modern country of Sudan in East Africa other than the name having the same derivation meaning "land of the blacks".
Posts: 8907 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Again for the tenth millionth time, the "Moors" is simply a term referring to the African population that made up the invading armies of Spain. This invasion unleashed a wave of migrations from throughout north and west Africa into Southern Europe and Spain. However, the culture and population of what became Moorish Spain and Southern Europe was not all African. Primarily most of the populations were European and many converted to Islam. There were also Arabians, Syrians, Persians and people from Baghdad. There were even people from across Asia in small numbers. The material culture of the Moorish empire was a combination of all these populations, from West African traditions, to Egyptian traditions, to Roman traditions, Greek traditions, Persian traditions, Chinese and Asian traditions, Indian traditions and so on. But the core of what is referred to as the "Moorish" element of this culture is the black African element that played a significant role, especially in terms of soldiers, but also as scholars and rulers.
But even though the term Moor refers to this initial African component, by the time the Moorish period ended many "Moors" were primarily mulattoes, as a result of the mixture of populations, especially those of Europe. The next few hundred years in Northern Africa only amplified this through movements of Turks, Arabians, Europeans and others into North Africa. And this is almost 1000 years after the initial invasions of Spain and a lot of things had changed. From then to now there were even more changes as populations expanded and migrations in and around north Africa continued, producing the types of populations you see in North Africa today.
And this shouldn't be shocking as much of the African diaspora in the Americas also has large numbers of such mulatto types as well and many people who today could pass for white have a lot of African ancestry, even though you wouldn't know it from looking at them. This includes populations from both the Anglo and Hispanic diaspora in the Americas. In fact it is the Hispanic African diaspora that has the most similarity to the populations of North Africa and Southern Europe, because of a similar combination of populations and cultures.
The primary difference between modern Northern Africa and ancient Northern Africa over 1500 years ago is that there were no barriers to Africans from the interior moving north and they did so quite often, as there were many black African populations from the interior clear up to the coasts of North Africa.
The Africans among the African component included many from the Sahel, Sahara and West Africa, who shared many common bonds of trade and culture from long before the arrival of Islam. And it is to the surviving cultures of West Africa that one should look at to see the best example of the remnants of some aspects of "Moorish" culture.
quote: Fit For A King
Horses are rare in some parts of Africa—in damp, tropical climates, they are often done in by disease. But the West African grasslands just south of the Sahara Desert are horse country. Around a thousand years ago, powerful empires arose in this region. Their rulers traveled on horseback and commanded large armies with thundering cavalry.
Though these empires have faded, West African leaders still keep horses as tokens of status and authority. On formal occasions, many rulers dress their horses in lavish trappings and display their wealth as they ride.
Again, this is over 1500 years of history covering an area almost 1 1/2 times the size of the U.S. It is impossible to understand all the cultural and physical aspects of the peoples in a simple term "moorish". And the further back you go the more sophisticated things get, especially in Western Africa.
Another key to note is where does this horse attire come from?
Also, if one wants to see more examples of such Moorish traditions from North And West Africa one can look at the International Festival of the Sahara in Tunisia which is a showcase for such things.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Sudan was a name for areas with blacks in Africa. Therefore West Africa was also considered as Sudan by some Muslim scholars. It has nothing to do with the modern country of Sudan in East Africa other than the name having the same derivation meaning "land of the blacks".
Correct, though in isolation it just means 'Black'. Bilad al-Sudan signifies the 'area' or land i e., 'Land of the Blacks'.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
When people in America say something about "African" culture or "black"/"Negro" culture what they really mean is Sudan culture. Most people in the Maghrib don't consider themselves Sudan so when someone talks about black Moors they should really be asking about Sudan (plural) who were in Moorish Spain
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bellow is an example of the use of the word Sudan. From what I've read Sudan is used generically for Africans south of the Maghrib (West) but Sudan in the East are usually referred to by more specific names (becasue they are more well known by the Arabs) the most powerful being the Zanj, Ethiopians and Nubians and are all Sudan as those in the west.
I wanted to clear that up because in the book page 110 Shaban goes on to say the Zanj are equally as Negro as the Sudan. Edit: When he uses the word here the Sudan mercenaries could be a mixture of Zanj mercenaries and other ethnicities since Zanj are Sudan?
If any of this is wrong please tell me
"Islamic History a new Interpretation" by M. A. Shaban
quote:The sudden and conspicuous appearance of Sudan amongst the armies of Ibn Tulun in Egypt calls for an explanation. Some sources like us to believe that he bought as many as 40,000 Negro slaves and made soldiers out of them to build up an empire of his own. Buying such a number of slaves, let alone training them to be an effective fighting force in a completely unfamiliar territory, would certainly have required more time than the few years that preceded their appearance in Egypt and subsequently in Syria on the Byzantine borders in the early years of Ibn Tulun’s rule 868-884. Other sources more accurately inform us that he enlisted Sudan in his army.
posted
The blacks of Moorish Spain came from Africa. It is that simple. Some came from North Africa and the Sahara, some came from West Africa and some from the Maghreb. Like I said, prior to Islam there were no barriers against Africans moving freely between Northern Africa and the interior or from East to West and they have been doing this for thousands of years.
You are talking about 1500 years of history and an area larger than the continental U.S. That covers a lot of people, cultures and movements that have taken place and cannot be fully understood by latching onto simple terms like Sudan. Especially because such terms lump together ethnic groups and identities that have real meaning and replaces them with something vague and superficial. Prior to Islam most of North West Africa was called Mauretania and the natives Maure and this covered the many indigenous blacks of these areas and also provided the basis and derivation for the term Moor. Sudan is an Arabic term but that term was never a pejorative term used by Europeans who saw black Africans in Europe. They called them Maure or Moors.
The generic terms found in old books does not help anything because they are so superficial. In this sense the term Sudan is meaningless considering that it only means "black African" and does not describe a particular ethnic group or place in Africa. Therefore the idea that Ibn Tulun had Sudanese soldiers in his army does nothing to actually define where in Africa these people came from as there are blacks all over Africa and many ethnic groups. Just as the term Moor does not really describe where the blacks who entered Spain actually came from. Suffice to say they came from various parts of North West Africa and the Sahara.
It is like saying that "the Whites" of Europe invaded the Americas. Which whites of Europe and from where? Conversely, when people talk about the whites in North Africa they also don't say when and where they came from. What Eurasians, when and from where did they originate? That kind of detail actually has more value historically and anthropological than vague descriptions of whole populations simply based on skin color. Just as the blacks who entered Spain came from specific ethnic groups and places in Africa, so too with those whites who entered Africa. In my mind, Greece and Eastern Europe are two specific places that had impacts at different times, along with other populations from other places at other times as well.
Posts: 8907 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: prior to Islam there were no barriers against Africans moving freely between Northern Africa and the interior or from East to West and they have been doing this for thousands of years.
There were definitely no barriers during the Islamic era either in fact trade and migrations increased people going north south east west from everywhere to everywhere (although this was happening since forever)
T. Rex was asking about black Moors and going off of what the people at that place and time saw the world you can look at where Sudan is described. We already have an account 40,000 Sudan soldiers as shown above
The opposite of what Osirion said was true the American one drop rule would have us calling people black who didn't consider themselves as such. It would be inappropriate to call someone a black African who didn't consider themselves as such (consider themselves Sudan)
quote:Originally posted by osirion: A lot of people back then were called Black that we wouldn't consider to be Black today.
The very topic is black Moors and despite whatever any modern person defines that as I think the most appropriate thing would be to go by what the natives themselves thought. Based on Jahiz in his book on the boasts of the Sudan I think the Arabs got the entire concept from Sudan themselves
quote:And you mentioned that you would like me to write to you the boasts of the Sudan, so I have written what I recall of their boasts.
In this the Sudan he is quoting are giving their opinion on the word Sudan
quote:Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us. Therefore we are the first people to whom he was missioned. Thus the appellation of the Arabs is predicated on ours, since we alone are designated dark-skinned, and they are not so designated unless they are part of us.
Some people over a thousand years ago were arguing over it its good fun if its not taken seriously I suppose. If anyone thinks the concept should be abandoned then why talk about anything like African history existing Africa is a continent. What the hell is an African American it is some people in America that want to identify as Negro or black or African. The western concept of Negro (not using as biological race) comes from Ethiopian and Sudan which came from the people they referred to
quote:Many other things are also told by them concerning their own antiquity and the colony which they sent out that became the Egyptians, but about this there is no special need of our writing anything.
Ibn Battuta Lived in Africa and he used the word Sudan. Now the majority of Africans didn't/don't even have such a concept but if certain people in the United States are going to keep using the concept and if there are people who keep calling themselves African American and identify themselves with African/black/Negro they should be courteous enough to respect how other people thought of the word. Anyone in the United States who calls themselves African (Sudan) American is an African American solely because they identify themselves as such.
quote:It goes thence to Yu.fi (Nufi), one of the greatest states in Negroland (Sudan), and the Sultan of which is among the most powerful princes of that quarter of the earth. No white man can reach that country, for sure death awaits him from the natives before he penetrates so far.
posted
A great Muslim scholar called himself Ahmad Baba al-Sudani (Ahmad Baba the black man) it was a foreign concept but its also a foreign concept to the Americas that many use
quote:Descendent of Umar ibn Mohammed Aqit the Tuareg. He liked to be called Ahmed Baba, the black. At an early age, he dedicated time to learning until he surpassed peers and contemporaries. He was the matchless jurist, scholar and Imam of his time. His reputation spread all over Sub-Sahara Africa and North Africa. The jurists of Timbuktu sought his advice in matters pertaining to legal decisions. He was a storehouse of Islamic knowledge. He firmly stood on truth in face of the Amirs and Kings. He had a library of 1600 manuscripts that was plundered during the Moroccan invasion of Timbuktu. He was deported to Fez in 1593. He authored 60 books (more than Shakespeare had written) and was called “Standard of Standards” by the Moroccans. He was also the student of the eminent Black scholar Mohammed Bagayogo. He wrote excellent books on theology, grammar, history and jurisprudence.
posted
Someone told me awhile ago (stranger over the internet) that many Egyptians (mostly in the south) today still consider themselves decedents of Nubia. Kemet of course meaning black
[Edit] I'm not confirming that to be true but its something to look into
I actually find that depressing that people were referring to themselves by color
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The point I am making is that using the term Sudan as if it is especially meaningful in Africa were MOST people are black is not really saying anything. It is like saying the black blacks. Simply put, the black Africans of Moorish Spain came from Africa. No other special qualifiers and foreign terms are needed to clarify this at all. That is unless people here feel that black Africans are only limited to certain parts of Africa, which they certainly are not especially more so 1500 years ago.
When talking of the actual groups involved in the Moorish conquest hardly ever will an Islamic scholar call them Sudani. Most often the peoples involved were called by their clan or family association. In fact there were other terms used within Moorish Spain to refer to the various ethnicities there during the Islamic era. Aswad is one example. Across the Islamic world various terms were used to signify blacks and it was not always Sudani. Abyssinian, Zanj and other terms were used to refer to black African people from various parts of Africa.
Simply put the blacks of Islamic Spain came from various parts of North and West Africa. No further clarification based on foreign terminology is needed.
Just as Ahmed Baba using the term Sudani is not significant considering almost ALL the people around him were also black (and also referred to themselves as Sudani in some cases).
posted
But yes, Sudan is the strongest term for referencing "pure" or very dark black Africans of Africa, from medieval Islamic literature. However, that does not change the fact that black Africa has never been limited to the darkest Africans of the continent. Just like the African diaspora there are a range of black African features from very dark to medium and light and those who have primarily African ancestry as well as those who are also mixed due to non African ancestry. When you talk of Moorish Spain or Islamic North Africa especially one must keep this in mind as this time period is by definition one where various populations and cultures were interacting.
The simple point is that many of the communities around Africa have African ancestry and have communities that still have darker skin. This is only the historic legacy of the fact that Africa is where all humans originated and that these populations are all the result of ancient migrations out of Africa. The various ways different societies describe or identify skin colors is only a superficial reflection of identity that obscures this core fact.
Berbers from Tataouine in Southern Tunisia. Tataouine is possibly the basis of the planet named Tatooine in Star Wars as much of the scenes for the desert planet were filmed in Tunisia.
quote: Tatooine's namesake
The planet is not actually named in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope; according to Lucas he intended to name it Utapau but finally he named it retrospectively after the movie's desert location, Tataouine (French spelling) or Tataween (تطاوين) (Arabic spelling) in Tunisia. Tataouine was a French penal colony until 1938. Utapau however was given to a different planet, in Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith.
posted
Much of what we call Medieval European culture is based on Persian, Syrian, Egyptian, Asian, Indian, African and other cultural elements, which is why it is unlike the preceding Roman period.
The Persians were a major factor as the last Persian empire did not end until the 7th century B.C. This empire was a constant threat and presence in Eastern Europe and Western Central Asia. It is from the Persians that many traditions of "knights" originate, as well as the style of castles seen in Europe as well as some of the more colorful traditions of dress and adornment. From Northern Africa also comes traditions of cavalry, dress and custom that hark back to the various cultures of the area. From West Africa came many additional cultural and material traditions from warriors to craftsmen to steel and other commodities. From Syria also came many cultural elements including housing styles, artistic styles and fashion and other elements. At this time these areas were much more advanced culturally than what we see today in many ways.
And there is also a lot of influence from India, especially in the way that many churches are covered in images of various saints and priests, which strongly echoes similar traditions found on Indian and South Asian temples.
posted
This is a good find and makes up for the gibberish you posted just previous to it.
I do find, despite what your sources say, that es~Sudane literally means 'of Blacks' in a geographic sense. Yet and still it presupposes the blackness of its user since one would naturally assume that somebody from the Beled es Sudan (the Land of Blacks) would indeed be black.
quote:Originally posted by markellion: A great Muslim scholar called himself Ahmad Baba al-Sudani (Ahmad Baba the black man) it was a foreign concept but its also a foreign concept to the Americas that many use
quote: Descendent of Umar ibn Mohammed Aqit the Tuareg. He liked to be called Ahmed Baba, the black. At an early age, he dedicated time to learning until he surpassed peers and contemporaries. He was the matchless jurist, scholar and Imam of his time. His reputation spread all over Sub- Sahara Africa and North Africa. The jurists of Timbuktu sought his advice in matters pertaining to legal decisions. He was a storehouse of Islamic knowledge. He firmly stood on truth in face of the Amirs and Kings. He had a library of 1600 manuscripts that was plundered during the Moroccan invasion of Timbuktu. He was deported to Fez in 1593. He authored 60 books (more than Shakespeare had written) and was called “Standard of Standards” by the Moroccans. He was also the student of the eminent Black scholar Mohammed Bagayogo. He wrote excellent books on theology, grammar, history and jurisprudence.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^I've read elsewhere also that he was "Tuareg", which would be a slap in the face to those who assort all those of the Berber-speaking lineage to the 'Bidan'. Assuming of course that he liked to be identified as such according to his own preference. I remember some troll asking (in an attempt to marginalize West African achievement), where is our Black Shakespeare? Well, given the work of this majestic scholar I'd be inclined to say that Shakespeare was the White Ahmed Baba. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
It is only a slap in the face if you presuppose that blacks as the primary population of Africa is contradicted or defined by a bunch of extra labels provided by foreigners. Sudan, Bidan and other sorts of "ethnonyms" only reinforce a fact that most Africans should already understand, which is that blacks were native to Africa since prior to the existence of such terms.
When you boil it down to the simplest common denominator, blacks have been part of Islam in Africa since it arrived there as they were and still are the primary population of Africa. However, as I said before, when looking at Arabic literature on the subject, you cannot always expect to find labels that are convenient to understanding the extent of the black populations among mixed ethnicities in Islamic North Africa and Spain. This is precisely because there were so many ways such scholars referred to such populations and it wasn't always clear who was black, as in dark ebony black, who was brown, who was light brown and who was white. Often such understandings cannot be expected to the level of understanding the composition of such features at an individual or percentage level in populations of mixed backgrounds. Therefore, clan and family associations become the pejorative association and identifier, followed by ethnic associations and then labels based on physical appearance. Not always in that order and not always inclusive.
As an example, how many references can you identify from Medieval Islamic works that describe in detail the physical attributes of groups like the Sanhaja or other Berber clans? Therefore, identification of the clan is often the most you will see, with other sorts of descriptions often being less important. The question is whether lacking such descriptions puts into doubt the fact that there were a large number of very black people among these groups. http://www.scribd.com/doc/8205879/Muqaddamah-Ibn-Khaldun
While Islamic scholars in North Africa were the forerunners of modern anthropological and historical writing in many ways, they were not as thorough and exhaustive on such ideas as identity and physical affiliation. Part of this is due to the fact that Islamic art often omitted the human form, which is a principal way that such characteristics are transmitted from ancient times to the next. And there texts were nowhere near as descriptive as the more modern "anthropological" works which often included extensive imagery to support the text.
Not to mention that the works of Kaldun have been bastardized in translation by various later sholars for various reasons:
quote: Many translations of Ibn Khaldun were translated during the colonial era in order to fit the colonial propaganda machine [54] The Negro land of the Arabs Examined and Explained was written in 1841 and gives excerpts of older translations that were not part of colonial propaganda
When the conquest of the West (by the Arabs) was completed, and merchants began to penetrate into the interior, they saw no nation of the Blacks so mighty as Ghanah, the dominions of which extended westward as far as the Ocean. The King's court was kept in the city of Ghanah, which, according to the author of the Book of Roger (El Idrisi), and the author of the Book of Roads and Realms (El Bekri), is divided into two parts, standing on both banks of the Nile, and ranks among the largest and most populous cities of the world. The people of Ghanah had for neighbours, on the east, a nation, which, according to historians, was called Susu; after which came another named Mali; and after that another known by the name of Kaukau ; although some people prefer a different orthography, and write this name Kagho. The last-named nation was followed by a people called Tekrur. The people of Ghanah declined in course of time, being overwhelmed or absorbed by the Molaththemun (or muffled people;that is, the Morabites), who, adjoining them on the north towards the Berber country, attacked them, and, taking possession of their territory, compelled them to embrace the Mohammedan religion. The people of Ghanah, being invaded at a later period by the Susu, a nation of Blacks in their neighbourhood, were exterminated, or mixed with other Black nations. [[55]]
Ibn Khaldun suggests a link between the decline of Ghana and rise of the Almoravids. however, there is little evidence of there actually being an Almoravid conquest of Ghana
Which means that in order to get a better understanding of what was originally written and what meanings are intended, you would need to be well versed in Arabic literature and able to read the originals directly.
Posts: 8907 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
One note on the Muqaddimah and its relationship to the history of North Africa and the Berbers. According to some scholars, it was intended to be a history of the Berber people themselves, which would have quite likely been the kind of detailed account some would love to have today. However, it gradually became a more general compendium on the rise and fall of various dynasties in north Africa, the nature of the rise and fall and what it takes to establish a dynasty and the backdrop of the cyclical nature of such dynasties. In this sense, it is much more of a description of HOW history is written from the perspective of the forces that shape the writing of history, which coincide with the forces that cause the cyclical nature of societies rising and falling to begin with. That makes it more of a reflection on the difficulty in accurately reconstructing a people or culture as things are constantly changing and cultures rise one day only to be completely obliterated the next.
In terms of physical anthropology, however, I doubt that such Islamic works would help with providing appropriate labels to describe the features of the Africans below, even though some are are simply black Africans to me, other scholars and observers may use different terminologies. But again, this is the difficulty in trying to reconstruct identity in places where things are changing so quickly along with so many different populations.
Many towers and defensive walls are still found throughout Spain from the Islamic period.
One feature of such defensive structures is the torre alberrana or exterior towers. These towers are credited with having been introduced by the Almohads in the 12th century:
Keep in mind that it was the influx of the Huns who were responsible for the Great Migrations of the Germanic tribes into Western Europe. And this is one of the major means of central Asian culture being spread into Europe, along with the Islamic invasions and later Mongol invasions. This is also when many actual Aryan (Persian) elements arrived as well.
posted
One thing I have been looking into recently are the various musical traditions of Morocco. In looking at this I notice that there is a very strong African nature to much of this music in many of the indigenous musical styles. These traditions seem easy to trace back to the various interactions between African peoples across North West Africa. And the modern Chaabi of Morocco is very infused with modern synthesizers as well as traditional elements. I wouldn't doubt some similarities to Ethiopian pop and traditional as well.
And one aspect of the modern pop sound popular across Africa is the synthesizer, which is something seen prominently in 80s Ethiopian pop. Note the sax element that became popular between the 50s and 70s and has largely been replaced by the Synthesizer.
But again this reflects the fact that when talks of the "Islamic World" you are talking of a mixture of populations, from Caucasians (Caucasus Moutains) to Africans to Asians.
Posts: 8907 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Another but fuller recital of our scholar's name is Abu al-Abbas Ahmad ibn Ahmad al-Takruri Al-Massufi al-Tinbukti
Note that al~Takruri is tantamount to es~Sudani, in that both refer to countries inhabited by blacks.
See too, that he never forgets his ancestry -- al~Massufi.
Also that he resided at Timbuktu -- al~Tinbukti.
Thanx kin folk. I'm still trying to understand all of the relevant nisbas of that time. What exactly does "al-Massufi" signify, if you don't mind me asking?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
That was his 'Tuareg' ethny. Well, actually his second generation Sanhadja kabila, which along with the Lemtuna and Djuddala formed Anbiya a confederacy spanning territory between the Senegal and the Wadi Dar'a (southern Morocco) -- the Massufa ranging from Tegdaoust to Teghaza particulary. The term derives from Mastuf, their eponymous ancestor.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: What exactly does "al-Massufi" signify, if you don't mind me asking?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey Doug,If you could,would you please post a repo of the Moors heads from J.A Rogers Book,Nature knows No Colour Line complete with family names,I no longer have the book in my position so i can't do it,and even if I did I wouldn't know how.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
OH Man, If you do you will be greatly rewarded as there are hundreds of Moors Heads with accompanying family names,pages after pages of this stuff,in vertually every major country in Europe some with family bio's Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Oh my! Look at all those European depiction of Moors as blacks even in caricature 'Sambo' forms. I'm sure 'Professor' Pat thinks these Medieval Europeans contemporary to and actual witnesses to the Moors are somehow mistaken. LOLPosts: 26470 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well DJ,the Moors in that book has been founders of European Families,some of them carry names like Blackman,blackson,morris,murryman,morrison,Brown, nigro,nigroson,mohr,mor,saracen,saraceni,musillman and so on.plus the book gives first hand account of what the Greeks and Romans had to say about such populations living in North Africa and Europe,very intreasting read indeed. Hey DJ I don't think that the Moors head was meant to be anything negative like sambo or such, because such heads was commissioned by the said Moors.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
ugg stiefel Europe,very intreasting read indeed. Hey DJ I don't uggthink that the Moors head was meant to be anything ugg boots negative like sambo or such, because such heads was commissioned by the said
Posts: 1 | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ackee: Well DJ,the Moors in that book has been founders of European Families,some of them carry names like Blackman,blackson,morris,murryman,morrison,Brown, nigro,nigroson,mohr,mor,saracen,saraceni,musillman and so on.plus the book gives first hand account of what the Greeks and Romans had to say about such populations living in North Africa and Europe,very intreasting read indeed. Hey DJ I don't think that the Moors head was meant to be anything negative like sambo or such, because such heads was commissioned by the said Moors.
I have that book - Brada lets not forget Moreno, Mora, Morisco, Morelli, Swartzmore.and Moorman. Will scan the photos and post this weekend if I can. I don't think there was a nigroson though.
According to Jack Forbes in Africans and Native Americans: The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black Peoples, 1993:
"The term 'more' and its equivalents were widely used in late-medieval and early modern Europe. According to Siomonet in his study of the language spoken by the Mozarabes (Christian Spaniards under Muslim rule before 1492), mauro meant negro and corresponded to Catillian usage in which moro was applied to horses whose color was negro. The cooresponding more (French), maurus (Hispanic Latin), and moro (Valencian) were derived from Latin morus (negro) and ultimately from a Greek word meaning oscuro. Similarly, Mozarabic mauro was related to moro (Sapnish and Italian), mouro (Portuguese and Gallego), mor (Provencal), maure and more (French), meaning 'Moro; negro; hombre de color'..."
Contrary to what has been spread over the internet in recent years. In Spain Moro was a color term until the 16th century as Simonet proved. Simonet had already proved the word Moro as used by Spanish Christians (Mozarabs) was only a synonym for their word Negro.
Therefore Moor meant black among Spaniards, not Muslim and not Moroccan and not North African or Arab. It referred to black or Negro wherevere they were from and whatever religion they practiced. Has anyone yet proven "Negro" was not a synonym for "Moro". The answer - No.
Moro lived in Spain along with other kinds of Muslims and Middle Easterns but the word "Moorish" only refers in that time to one type of person - one who is "Negro". Period.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Sahrarawis, Trarza and Hassaniyya are descendants of Maures (Berber and Arab-Yemenite people) who sometimes were mentioned even in colonial writings as dragging blue-eyed Christian slaves through the desert area. So the photos you have posted of Sahrawis are mainly of Berber-Arab people who have absorbed European blood and probably some sub-Saharan blood as well.
This woman and her family shows the mixture. The music is also undoubtedly very ancient as well.:
Of course most European writers have tried to make such people into Caucasians that have abosrbed African blood, but it was mainly the other way around.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... This invasion unleashed a wave of migrations from throughout north and west Africa into Southern Europe and Spain. However, the culture and population of what became Moorish Spain and Southern Europe was not all African. Primarily most of the populations were European and many converted to Islam. There were also Arabians, Syrians, Persians and people from Baghdad. There were even people from across Asia in small numbers. The material culture of the Moorish empire was a combination of all these populations, from West African traditions, to Egyptian traditions, to Roman traditions, Greek traditions, Persian traditions, Chinese and Asian traditions, Indian traditions and so on. But the core of what is referred to as the "Moorish" element of this culture is the black African element that played a significant role, especially in terms of soldiers, but also as scholars and rulers.
But even though the term Moor refers to this initial African component, by the time the Moorish period ended many "Moors" were primarily mulattoes, as a result of the mixture of populations, especially those of Europe. The next few hundred years in Northern Africa only amplified this through movements of Turks, Arabians, Europeans and others into North Africa. And this is almost 1000 years after the initial invasions of Spain and a lot of things had changed. From then to now there were even more changes as populations expanded and migrations in and around north Africa continued, producing the types of populations you see in North Africa today.
And this shouldn't be shocking as much of the African diaspora in the Americas also has large numbers of such mulatto types as well and many people who today could pass for white have a lot of African ancestry, even though you wouldn't know it from looking at them. This includes populations from both the Anglo and Hispanic diaspora in the Americas. In fact it is the Hispanic African diaspora that has the most similarity to the populations of North Africa and Southern Europe, because of a similar combination of populations and cultures.
The primary difference between modern Northern Africa and ancient Northern Africa over 1500 years ago is that there were no barriers to Africans from the interior moving north and they did so quite often, as there were many black African populations from the interior clear up to the coasts of North Africa.
The Africans among the African component included many from the Sahel, Sahara and West Africa, who shared many common bonds of trade and culture from long before the arrival of Islam. And it is to the surviving cultures of West Africa that one should look at to see the best example of the remnants of some aspects of "Moorish" culture.
[QUOTE]
Again, this is over 1500 years of history covering an area almost 1 1/2 times the size of the U.S. It is impossible to understand all the cultural and physical aspects of the peoples in a simple term "moorish". And the further back you go the more sophisticated things get, especially in Western Africa.
I agree with much of what was said here except for a lack of reference to the Arabian component which probably made up the bulk of the early "Moors" or "black complexioned populations" in Spain - from the 8th until the 10th century.
The Arabian tribes that came to North Africa and settled in Chad and Sudan are the same tribes people that conquered North Africa and Spain. The people that moved against the French in Toulouse were Arabs of the Azd (led by al Ghafiqi from a well known Ghafiq a well known tribe of the Azd ) and other well-documented black skinned tribes, not Africans.
The Muslim Conquest and Settlement of Northern Africa and Spain shows that the Arabians in Spain were very numerous and belonged to the Quda'a, Qays, Rebi'a, Azd, Maddhij, Bakr bin Wa'il and other blacks. It was these Arabian clans or Moorish Arabs who colonized many of the areas that were known as Moorish. Many of the towns of Iberia are named by these men.
"Banu Ghafiq from Udthan (Ethan) bin Hazzan b. al Azd had at one time settled 35,000 strong in Egypt. Their principle settlements in Spain were in the region of Seville, Cordoba and to some extent Toledo, Elvira, Granada and Al Sharaf west of Seville and the place known as al Ghafiq. It was a Ghafiqi named Abdu’l Rahman who led the men of Andalusia in the battle against Charles Martel the Belgium born ruler the tribes of Franks at the Battle of Tours or Poitiers. Thus, the 17,000 Saracens Europeans fought and mentioned in their texts and their famous leader Abdu’l Rahman were of Azd stock."
This is just one of dozens of black or Arabian clans that colonized Spain.
Of course, Syrians, Kurds, Baghdadi's and Khorasanis/Central Asians entered Spain as well as they did North Africa, but the word "Moro" did not refer to them.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ackee: Hey Doug,If you could,would you please post a repo of the Moors heads from J.A Rogers Book,Nature knows No Colour Line complete with family names,I no longer have the book in my position so i can't do it,and even if I did I wouldn't know how.
Greetings.
I have said book, but no way to scan the pages in to then upload and post....
pp 76, 78, 83-86, 88-91, 95-98, 100-107, are the pages you want...
I have his complete Sex and Race series, as well as As Nature Leads...
htp
Posts: 3446 | From: U.S. by way of JA by way of Africa | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Sahrarawis, Trarza and Hassaniyya are descendants of Maures (Berber and Arab-Yemenite people) who sometimes were mentioned even in colonial writings as dragging blue-eyed Christian slaves through the desert area. So the photos you have posted of Sahrawis are mainly of Berber-Arab people who have absorbed European blood and probably some sub-Saharan blood as well.
This woman and her family shows the mixture. The music is also undoubtedly very ancient as well.:
Of course most European writers have tried to make such people into Caucasians that have abosrbed African blood, but it was mainly the other way around.
Keep in mind also that a lot of that Arab blood is relatively recent, as in after the expulsion of the Moors from Spain.
Anyway, more Mauritanian musicians (primarily African descent):
posted
Oh and by the way, one group I distrust the most among the Mauritanian mulatto Arab usurpers in the Northwest of Africa is the Saharawi, who I view as nothing more than Arabs using a front story to obtain land in Africa as native "Africans", when they aren't. Yet they try and rep African culture and traditions that they have usurped as their own, while at the same time enslaving and oppressing the native Africans.
quote: One of the most controversial films shown at the recent Los Angeles Pan African Film Festival (PAFF) was "Stolen," which had its U.S. premier at the festival. The film tells the story of slavery in the Polisario-governed refugee camps in Algeria.
Polisario (Popular Front for the Liberation of Saguia el-Hamra and Río de Oro), the nationalist movement fighting for the independence of the Western Sahara from Morocco, has operated out of Tindouf, Algeria, since the 1970s. The refugee camps at Tindouf now house an estimated 100,000 refugees.
The filmmakers, Violeta Ayala and Daniel Fallshaw, initially planned a film about a family reunion involving a black Saharawi family that became separated when some of its members moved into the camps while others remained in the Moroccan-held territories of Western Sahara. While shooting the original story, the filmmakers stumbled upon evidence of slavery in the camps.
The resulting film is an exposé of slavery in Saharawi society featuring interviews with black Saharawis about life in servitude. The compelling, yet heartbreaking, stories unveil the racial and class divisions within an African society that is home to both blacks and Arabs.
The story of black Africans being enslaved by Arab Africans has been told by human rights organizations and journalists working in Sudan and Mauritania, but "Stolen" is the first documentary to deal with the issue in Saharawi society. The film also reveals that slavery is found not only in Polisario-controlled refugee camps but also in Moroccan-controlled Western Sahara.
The film details the experience of Fatim, a black Saharawi, and her family. Initially one assumes that Fatim is a servant. While the practice of hiring servants is common in many countries, the difference between working as a servant or a slave is often in the treatment and pay. In Fatim’s case, it becomes clear in the film that she and many other black Saharawis are considered slaves.
An important element of the film is the experience of the filmmakers themselves. While documentary filmmakers often do not themselves become part of the film, "Stolen" is different - it features attempts by authorities to confiscate their footage as well as their success in getting it out of North Africa.
Since "Stolen" has been released, the filmmakers say there have been intense efforts to discredit the film. During a discussion after it was shown at PAFF, festival organizers indicated that they had been contacted over their decision to show the film.
The cut shown at PAFF added footage from the European premiere, including interviews accusing the filmmakers of paying for or coercing black Saharawis to say that they were enslaved. Critics of the production also contend that it was both translated and edited in a way that shows a false image of Saharawi society.
At the very least, "Stolen" exposes a racial hierarchy within Saharawi society - a hierarchy that finds black Saharawis economically and politically oppressed. Individuals interviewed tell of black Saharawis forced to work for Arab Saharawi families. The film notes there are laws prohibiting slavery in the region, although the filmmakers show that local attitudes and customs often prevent enslaved individuals from trying to secure their freedom.
However, the filmmakers’ decision to film portions of conversations without the consent or knowledge of those being filmed does raise ethical questions. Including such scenes - which were not needed to tell the story - in the final cut showed a lack of good judgment.
Nevertheless, the interviews and footage constitute a strong story, as well as justification for more campaigning on the issue. The film elicits a strong emotional response from viewers and deals with serious racial, social and economic divisions in Africa and the controversy it has generated will likely bring attention not only to the film, but also to the issues it film highlights.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... This invasion unleashed a wave of migrations from throughout north and west Africa into Southern Europe and Spain. However, the culture and population of what became Moorish Spain and Southern Europe was not all African. Primarily most of the populations were European and many converted to Islam. There were also Arabians, Syrians, Persians and people from Baghdad. There were even people from across Asia in small numbers. The material culture of the Moorish empire was a combination of all these populations, from West African traditions, to Egyptian traditions, to Roman traditions, Greek traditions, Persian traditions, Chinese and Asian traditions, Indian traditions and so on. But the core of what is referred to as the "Moorish" element of this culture is the black African element that played a significant role, especially in terms of soldiers, but also as scholars and rulers.
But even though the term Moor refers to this initial African component, by the time the Moorish period ended many "Moors" were primarily mulattoes, as a result of the mixture of populations, especially those of Europe. The next few hundred years in Northern Africa only amplified this through movements of Turks, Arabians, Europeans and others into North Africa. And this is almost 1000 years after the initial invasions of Spain and a lot of things had changed. From then to now there were even more changes as populations expanded and migrations in and around north Africa continued, producing the types of populations you see in North Africa today.
And this shouldn't be shocking as much of the African diaspora in the Americas also has large numbers of such mulatto types as well and many people who today could pass for white have a lot of African ancestry, even though you wouldn't know it from looking at them. This includes populations from both the Anglo and Hispanic diaspora in the Americas. In fact it is the Hispanic African diaspora that has the most similarity to the populations of North Africa and Southern Europe, because of a similar combination of populations and cultures.
The primary difference between modern Northern Africa and ancient Northern Africa over 1500 years ago is that there were no barriers to Africans from the interior moving north and they did so quite often, as there were many black African populations from the interior clear up to the coasts of North Africa.
The Africans among the African component included many from the Sahel, Sahara and West Africa, who shared many common bonds of trade and culture from long before the arrival of Islam. And it is to the surviving cultures of West Africa that one should look at to see the best example of the remnants of some aspects of "Moorish" culture.
[QUOTE]
Again, this is over 1500 years of history covering an area almost 1 1/2 times the size of the U.S. It is impossible to understand all the cultural and physical aspects of the peoples in a simple term "moorish". And the further back you go the more sophisticated things get, especially in Western Africa.
I agree with much of what was said here except for a lack of reference to the Arabian component which probably made up the bulk of the early "Moors" or "black complexioned populations" in Spain - from the 8th until the 10th century.
The Arabian tribes that came to North Africa and settled in Chad and Sudan are the same tribes people that conquered North Africa and Spain. The people that moved against the French in Toulouse were Arabs of the Azd (led by al Ghafiqi from a well known Ghafiq a well known tribe of the Azd ) and other well-documented black skinned tribes, not Africans.
The Muslim Conquest and Settlement of Northern Africa and Spain shows that the Arabians in Spain were very numerous and belonged to the Quda'a, Qays, Rebi'a, Azd, Maddhij, Bakr bin Wa'il and other blacks. It was these Arabian clans or Moorish Arabs who colonized many of the areas that were known as Moorish. Many of the towns of Iberia are named by these men.
"Banu Ghafiq from Udthan (Ethan) bin Hazzan b. al Azd had at one time settled 35,000 strong in Egypt. Their principle settlements in Spain were in the region of Seville, Cordoba and to some extent Toledo, Elvira, Granada and Al Sharaf west of Seville and the place known as al Ghafiq. It was a Ghafiqi named Abdu’l Rahman who led the men of Andalusia in the battle against Charles Martel the Belgium born ruler the tribes of Franks at the Battle of Tours or Poitiers. Thus, the 17,000 Saracens Europeans fought and mentioned in their texts and their famous leader Abdu’l Rahman were of Azd stock."
This is just one of dozens of black or Arabian clans that colonized Spain.
Of course, Syrians, Kurds, Baghdadi's and Khorasanis/Central Asians entered Spain as well as they did North Africa, but the word "Moro" did not refer to them.
You are absolutely correct. Many people think that Arab means white, when in reality that is a recent concept. Many Arabs in history from the land of Arabia were and are black. The white skin primarily comes from Asian (hence the origin of the term Asiatic) and European admixture, such as from the Turks, the Armenians, the Eastern Europeans and other populations who have become part of the "Arab world". Even many of the ancient Egyptian depictions of Asiatics shows this African/Asian blend of features.
Northwest Africa is a hodgepodge of Aboriginal African, European, Asian and Arab (all colors). I call it the land of the Obamanoids, meaning Africans of mixed descent, some of whom do resemble Obama. And this is from a history of interaction with various populations.
Islamic Spain and the golden Age of the Islamic world was the prototype for the "multicultural" Western World. It was the Muslims who controlled the trade routes from Africa and Europe to Asia, which provided the basis of the wealth of the time for the Muslims. From Africa, Arabia, South Asia into the Far East there was exchange and commerce between all different kinds of cultures and peoples that formed the backdrop of a multi-ethnic identity. And many of these people were indeed black, many coal black. The diverse Afro, Arab and European blend became the basis of Andalusian identity and from this came the concepts of the concepts of ethnic stratification seen most strongly in the Spanish and Portuguese colonies, not to mention many of these Spanish and Portuguese were mulattoes themselves in the first place. But anyway the colonization of the Americas and other parts of the world began the process of intermixing of European, Arab, Asian and Native American that is similar in many ways to the Islamic world 1000 years ago.
Posts: 8907 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: The Spanish and Portuguese word muladi is derived from Arabic muwallad. The basic meaning of muwallad is a person of mixed ancestry, especially a descendant of an Arab and a non-Arab parent, who grew up among Arabs and was educated within the Arab–Islamic culture.
"Muladi" has been offered as one of the possible etymological origins of the still-current Spanish and Portuguese term "Mulato", denoting a person of mixed European and non-European ancestry. In the Basque language, the word mairuak (builders of semi-circular Arches) referred to Muladi merchants and travelers who built Mosques in the rural regions of Iberia.
posted
The Sahrawis are supposed to be descendants ofthe Sulaym or Soleim group of Arabs described as "black as lava" and "extremely black" that mixed mainly with the early Berbers and then their European and then sub-Saharan African slaves. They are not descendants of Muslim people pushed from Spain, but of those that moved south into the Maghreb and were called Moors or Moorish Arabs by the Portuguese and other Europeans.
Interestingly - the Mauritanian woman on Oprahs show in the video claims woman have the power in families her culture. This is the position of women in early Arabian and Berber (Afro-Asiatic) societies the exact opposite among European and Eurasiatic-looking Arab and Berbers.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Sahrawis are supposed to be descendants ofthe Sulaym or Soleim group of Arabs described as "black as lava" and "extremely black" that mixed mainly with the early Berbers and then their European and then sub-Saharan African slaves. They are not descendants of Muslim people pushed from Spain, but of those that moved south into the Maghreb and were called Moors or Moorish Arabs by the Portuguese and other Europeans.
Interestingly - the Mauritanian woman on Oprahs show in the video claims woman have the power in families her culture. This is the position of women in early Arabian and Berber (Afro-Asiatic) societies the exact opposite among European and Eurasiatic-looking Arab and Berbers.
This may be true but you also have to remember that there have been movements of Arabs since the fall of Islamic Spain, especially by those called the Beni Hassan who have decimated and intermarried with many of the people of the Western Sahara and "Moorish" Mauritania. It is this Arab element that forms the basis of the Arab elite in Saharawi society that is the basis of the ongoing slavery in Mauritania and within Saharawi society. As a matter of fact there are still movements of Arabs from Arabia into this area who integrate themselves as "natives" of the region.
Posts: 8907 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Bani Hassani i.e. Sahrawi are descendants of the BLACK and PURE Arabs KNOWN as SULAYM AND MAQIL and nearly BLACK Berbers who moved into the western Sahara and became known under the colonialist term Moorish Arabs . The latter who were noted as dragging their "Christian" green and blue eyed slaves through the desert. This black or original Arab/Berber element that combined with their European CHistian slaves now forms the basis of the Arab elite in Sahrawi society. Most of the Arabs moving from Arabia look not unlike like the natives of Sudan and southern Egypt and descend from the ORIGINAL ARAB populations. They are called Haweitat, Masruh and Hawazin and come from Jordan and Sinai.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The term "Moor" has been used in different contexts over the past several centuries. In Europe especially in the last 3 centries it came to be used for modern Muslim North Africans in a generic way - just as "Turk" came to be used for any European turned Muslim.
A better or more relevant question for a new post would have been, was Simonet correct in his conclusions that Mozarabs in Spain used the word "Moro" as a synonym for word "Negro".
Apparently until the Moro were kicked out of Spain that is what the word meant - Negro the black . Hence the term is still used exclusively for black people today in certain South American countries.
The term Morocco of course comes from the Moors and not vice versa, but most of todays Moroccans of course are not representative of people who typified the Muslim Moors during their rule in Spain.
In that period the word Moor or Moro did not mean Moroccan, Muslim North African or tanned man. As scholars like Simonet have already shown it meant "Negro" - the Spanish term for "black" or black man (derived from Latin Nigri of course).
The word in Africa "Moor" is of course used for darker skinned and mulatto people in Morocco and the Western Sahara who are of Berber and Arab blood. However, it was mainly Berbers and Arabs before intermingling with European/Eurasiatic peoples that became the predominant black-skinned people of Spain and thus were called Moros. These groups were thus not originally of sub-Saharan or West African origin.
Muslim Spain of course was composed of the Moors and "Moorish Arabs" as well as various Middle Eastern and East European people who had turned Muslim.
That does not mean they were all called "Moors" or "Moro", i.e. "Negro" in Spain during the period of Moorish ascendancy.
Comedian Eddie Griffin - USA
Riff Berber of the Guelia in Morocco
Yes - the Moors were black during the period of their ascendancy in Spain - and apparently among Eddie Griffin's ancestors.lol!
The Guelaia apparently were divided into 5 tribes like the ancient Afro-Asiatics, and some prefix their names with Ait or Ad like Beja, south Arabians, Tuareg and other Afro-Asiatics. The tribes mentioned in this Guelaia area include the Beni Sicar and the Beni abu-Ifrur who may be the Berber tribe known as the "Haskura" a branch of the Masmuda occupying the coast of Morocco during the "Moorish ascendancy in Spain - and the Ifuren of the Zenata (Tuareg) pehaps the ancient Perorsi of "Mauritania".
See The Passing of the Shereefian Empire By E. Ashmead-Bartlet 1910.
From such depictions of the Riff Berbers we can see why early Syrians and Iranians simply refered to the Masmuda Berbers as "black Africans".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
The Tuareg received a lot of press and fame due to the French occupation of North Africa and the Sahara. One person most notable for admiring their culture (and trying to convert them) was Charles de Foucauld. He wrote many stories about them. And the French had much trouble with the Tuaregs and their chiefs.
Note too that many of the fine features (thin noses etc) can be found among the Saharan tuareg and are part of the feature set ancestral to those who occupied coastal North Africa and traces back to their roots in East Africa.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic