I found the video above to be interesting because it made alot of good points about the mental gymnastics Western scholars had to do to deny the Africanity of Ancient Egypt.
But something the speaker in the video said made me think.
They claimed that even today the media and academia are trying to cover up the fact that the Ancient Egyptians were Black. The cited modern movies like the Mummy which depicts Ancient Egyptians as White as well as Nation Geographic's publication of a magazine with the front cover and main article featuring what they called "Black Pharaohs" is reference to the Nubian rulers of the 25th Dynasty.
Now I have read that article and honestly I get the impression that National Geographic was trying to appease African-American readers by acknowledging the role of Black people in Egypt. Nevertheless it does reflect on their perception that the Ancient Egyptians proper were something other than Black.
The suggestion that Queen Tiye's bust darkened over time and that she could have been a Nubian was laughable and something the editors of National Geographic Magazine should be embarrassed by. The video above makes a very good point about NGM's hypocrisy.
But do people really think that the editors are racists in the same vein as the people who created White-history.com?
I think that given the modern demographic of Egypt there is a real perception that Egyptians were not Black and that the modern denial that they were atleast by mainstream scholars and those in the media is due more to ignorance than blatant racism.
National Geographic Magazine did make strides on this subject by consulting Keita to make an authoritative statement on Ancient Egyptian biology and writing essays on the Africanity of Ancient Egypt that are printed on their website. This gives me the impression that there is some legitimate concern and acknowledgment that they need to reconsider how they portray Ancient Egypt.
That Race Quiz they have on their webpage is horrible but they did atleast make an effort to understand Ancient Egyptians perceptions of ethnicity. It doesn't strike me as racist propaganda.
As for Hollywood I am looking forward to seeing Will Smith playing Taharqa in The Last Pharaoh.
Hey, it's a start.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Racism can occur both at the conscious and sub-conscious levels. It doesn't only manifest at the conscious level. If Eurocentrist-thinking people acknowledged "Black African" AE, this pulls the curtain on their false sense of 'racial superiority', which not everyone bearing the thought, will admit to having. Many of the said mentioned things about the persistence in fallacy [e.g. Mummy movie, the "Nubian" Dynasty as the "Black Pharaohs", etc] had been visited upon on this site over the years.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
The guy who made the video is a blundering idiot. Some of the actors in the video he claimed were white, were not (LOL). This video illustrates the classic groupthink of Afroloons, i.e., the Black vs. White dichotomic world-view. They just can't seem to grasp the reality that humanity is not just Black and White.
Posts: 2025 | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: Now I have read that article and honestly I get the impression that National Geographic was trying to appease African-American readers by acknowledging the role of Black people in Egypt. Nevertheless it does reflect on their perception that the Ancient Egyptians proper were something other than Black.
That's why I hate all this "Black Pharaohs" crap. It's good that the Kushites are getting some exposure, but the phrase "Black Pharaohs" implies that normal Pharaohs were not black. And why do you never hear the Ptolemaic Dynasty referred to as the "White Pharaohs"?
In fact, I'm sick of the whole Nubian game in general. Yes, Kushite facial features were more southern Sudanic than those of the Egyptians, but that doesn't mean we should regard the Egyptians as a different race. The facial features on Olmec sculptures are different from those of Plains Indians, yet no mainstream scholar would classify the Olmecs as non-Native American.
Posts: 7075 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I found the video above to be interesting because it made alot of good points about the mental gymnastics Western scholars had to do to deny the Africanity of Ancient Egypt.
But something the speaker in the video said made me think.
They claimed that even today the media and academia are trying to cover up the fact that the Ancient Egyptians were Black. The cited modern movies like the Mummy which depicts Ancient Egyptians as White as well as Nation Geographic's publication of a magazine with the front cover and main article featuring what they called "Black Pharaohs" is reference to the Nubian rulers of the 25th Dynasty.
Now I have read that article and honestly I get the impression that National Geographic was trying to appease African-American readers by acknowledging the role of Black people in Egypt. Nevertheless it does reflect on their perception that the Ancient Egyptians proper were something other than Black.
The suggestion that Queen Tiye's bust darkened over time and that she could have been a Nubian was laughable and something the editors of National Geographic Magazine should be embarrassed by. The video above makes a very good point about NGM's hypocrisy.
But do people really think that the editors are racists in the same vein as the people who created White-history.com?
I think that given the modern demographic of Egypt there is a real perception that Egyptians were not Black and that the modern denial that they were atleast by mainstream scholars and those in the media is due more to ignorance than blatant racism.
National Geographic Magazine did make strides on this subject by consulting Keita to make an authoritative statement on Ancient Egyptian biology and writing essays on the Africanity of Ancient Egypt that are printed on their website. This gives me the impression that there is some legitimate concern and acknowledgment that they need to reconsider how they portray Ancient Egypt.
That Race Quiz they have on their webpage is horrible but they did atleast make an effort to understand Ancient Egyptians perceptions of ethnicity. It doesn't strike me as racist propaganda.
As for Hollywood I am looking forward to seeing Will Smith playing Taharqa in The Last Pharaoh.
Hey, it's a start.
I think its probably both a subconscious and conscious. People are ingrained with certain stereotypes about Africa from the media, people can struggle to link Africa with any type of great civilization because they look at Africa today and think that its always been like that.
Posts: 89 | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ceasar: I think its probably both a subconscious and conscious. People are ingrained with certain stereotypes about Africa from the media, people can struggle to link Africa with any type of great civilization because they look at Africa today and think that its always been like that.
I honestly think it has more to do with their perception of Egypt than of Africa.
They have no problems admitting that Nubians conquered Egypt and glorify this event as a cultural achievement people of African descent can be proud of.
However the labeling of them as "Black" Pharaohs reveals their opinion of Ancient Egyptians themselves. They view them as being non-Black and I think alot of that has to do with their perception of modern Egypt as a non-Black country with a Near Eastern cultural root.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Morpheus, But nobody confuses the populations of present-day Mexico and Peru with existed before the invasions of the Spanish and other Europeans--even though large numbers of modern-day Mexicans and Peruvians have been forcefully miscegenated with the white invaders.
These days Mexico and Peru are designated as Latin American countries where Spanish is the official language the religion European Catholicism. But again, no one confuses Maya, Inca and Aztec cultures and peoples racially with the present populations. And all this took place just 400-500 years ago.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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The designation "black pharaohs" is just a sly ploy to preempt the notion that both the AEs and the Kushites were phenotypically and genotypically African.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ceasar: I think its probably both a subconscious and conscious. People are ingrained with certain stereotypes about Africa from the media, people can struggle to link Africa with any type of great civilization because they look at Africa today and think that its always been like that.
I honestly think it has more to do with their perception of Egypt than of Africa.
They have no problems admitting that Nubians conquered Egypt and glorify this event as a cultural achievement people of African descent can be proud of.
However the labeling of them as "Black" Pharaohs reveals their opinion of Ancient Egyptians themselves. They view them as being non-Black and I think alot of that has to do with their perception of modern Egypt as a non-Black country with a Near Eastern cultural root.
It may be a bit of both. Obviously the modern Egyptians, especially the ones that inhabitants generally don't resemble tropically adapted northeast Africans. For a layperson who doesn't know that much about history I can see how someone may look at the modern population and say that how the ancients look.
Now in my opinion the people who have read the genetic and archeological evidence of ancient Egypt who still try to deny its African roots may subconsciously view black Africans as primitive and not being able to create such an advanced civilization, so they try to look at every other avenue because black Africans creating advanced civilization is so far from their world view.
Then you have the outright euro centric bigots, likes racial-reality and Matilda who purposely distort information to suit there on agenda. The harden euro-centric s like to say the Nubian's aren't even black Africans.
So it may be a bit of both
Posts: 89 | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Here are some examples of Eurocentric tof hinking re Africa:
1) Ancient Ghana was founded by Berbers.
2) The well-known Timboctou scholar Ahmed Baba was of partial Moroccan and Spanish ancestry.
3)The Benin bronzes and the Nok technologies of what is now called Nigeria were the creations of Persians or--Greeks!
4) The stone buildings of Ancient Zimbabwe were the work of Persians or Arabs.
5) The relatively sophisticated governing structures of African peoples such as the Tutsis(Rwanda/Burundi) and Buganda(Uganda) were due to their so-called "caucasoid" ancestry.
So why should it be puzzle that Ancient Egypt and Kush be viewed in the same way.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ceasar: Then you have the outright euro centric bigots, likes racial-reality and Matilda who purposely distort information to suit there on agenda. The harden euro-centric s like to say the Nubian's aren't even black Africans.
So it may be a bit of both
The Dodona crowd are obviously Eurocentric racists who are trying to manipulate academic research to promote their racial theories.
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
So why should it be puzzle that Ancient Egypt and Kush be viewed in the same way.
Without question there was a history of racist ideas about African cultural achievement that became common in Western academia but I'm trying to get opinions on what people think of mainstream scholars and the media when they portray the Ancient Egyptians as not being Black.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Is the author of the video Mike111? The end of a fair analysis of a white racist view of Egypt resolves with more racism, the idea that whites are genetically inferior to blacks. One wonders how a genetically inferior so called race was able to beat us "superior" dark skinned people over and over again.
The video calls this illustration of the attendants of the Nubian Queen of Mentuhotep II "white slaves" Posts: 42925 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ceasar: Then you have the outright euro centric bigots, likes racial-reality and Matilda who purposely distort information to suit there on agenda. The harden euro-centric s like to say the Nubian's aren't even black Africans.
So it may be a bit of both
The Dodona crowd are obviously Eurocentric racists who are trying to manipulate academic research to promote their racial theories.
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
So why should it be puzzle that Ancient Egypt and Kush be viewed in the same way.
Without question there was a history of racist ideas about African cultural achievement that became common in Western academia but I'm trying to get opinions on what people think of mainstream scholars and the media when they portray the Ancient Egyptians as not being Black.
Well I think that the average person on the street would just believe what the media tells them to believe. Only being are are interested in history, would actually have any opinion that they actually put some thought in.
Posts: 89 | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Without question there was a history of racist ideas about African cultural achievement that became common in Western academia but I'm trying to get opinions on what people think of mainstream scholars and the media when they portray the Ancient Egyptians as not being Black.
Well, Western culture is extremely narcissistic--maybe most are. So whenever anything viewed as positive is being portrayed in films and other media, the tendency on the part of the Western media is to recreate that thing so that it becomes palatable to Western tastes and self image. Imagine w hat would happen if all the U.S. soaps and films replaced the white actors with East Asian or African ones. They would be boycotted en masse.
The solution is for blacks/Africans to create their own authentic images of the samePosts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Without question there was a history of racist ideas about African cultural achievement that became common in Western academia but I'm trying to get opinions on what people think of mainstream scholars and the media when they portray the Ancient Egyptians as not being Black.
Well, Western culture is extremely narcissistic--maybe most are. So whenever anything viewed as positive is being portrayed in films and other media, the tendency on the part of the Western media is to recreate that thing so that it becomes palatable to Western tastes and self image. Imagine w hat would happen if all the U.S. soaps and films replaced the white actors with East Asian or African ones. They would be boycotted en masse.
The solution is for blacks/Africans to create their own authentic images of the same
Exactly, as long as Africa in generally is in a a quagmire this situation will always be present
Posts: 89 | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Is the author of the video Mike111? The end of a fair analysis of a white racist view of Egypt resolves with more racism, the idea that whites are genetically inferior to blacks. One wonders how a genetically inferior so called race was able to beat us "superior" dark skinned people over and over again.
The video calls this illustration of the attendants of the Nubian Queen of Mentuhotep II "white slaves"
Lioness my little Albino queen, would you care to list those Black defeats at the hands of Whites?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: I honestly think it has more to do with their perception of Egypt than of Africa.
They have no problems admitting that Nubians conquered Egypt and glorify this event as a cultural achievement people of African descent can be proud of.
However the labeling of them as "Black" Pharaohs reveals their opinion of Ancient Egyptians themselves. They view them as being non-Black and I think alot of that has to do with their perception of modern Egypt as a non-Black country with a Near Eastern cultural root.
We all know the pharoahs over the long span of Egyptian history were a variable lot, but it would kill a lot of fantasies and undermine a lot of ethnocentric edifices if that range of variation were to include tropical Africans, and not just' confine said Africans to the so called "Black" pharoahs of the 25th dynasty. Confining them to the 25th is a neat ploy that avoids acknowledging the whole picture. For example:
1-- we have limb proportion data.. --------------------------------------------
text: "It can be seen that all the pharonic values, including those of 'Smakhare', lie much closer to the negro curve than to the white curve. Since stature equations only work satisfactorily in the individuals to whom they have applied have similar proportions to the population group from which they are derived, this provides justification for using negro equations for estimating stature from single bones of the New Kingdom pharoahs, renforcing the previous findings of Robins (1983). Furthermore, the Troller and Gleser white equations for the femur, tibia and humerus yield stature values that have a much wider spread than those from negro equations with mean values that are unacceptably large."
--Robins and Schute. The Physical Proportions and Stature of New Kingdom Pharaohs," Journal of Human Evolution 12 (1983), 455-465
and
[quote]
"Robins (1983) and Robins & Shute (1983) have shown that more consistent results are obtained from ancient Egyptian male skeletons if Trotter & Gleser formulae for negro are used, rather than those for whites which have always been applied in the past. .. their physical proportions were more like modern negroes than those of modern whites, with limbs that were relatively long compared with the trunk, and distal segments that were long compared with the proximal segments. If ancient Egyptian males had what may be termed negroid proportions, it seems reasonable that females did likewise." From: (Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986. Predynastic Egyptian stature and physical proportions. Hum Evol 1:313–324. Ruff CB. 1994.) --------------------------------------------
2-- So we have limb proportions- and we have x-ray data with that: [quote]
"In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults."
(An X-ray atlas of the royal mummies. Edited by J.E. Harris and E.F. Wente. (The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1980.) Review: Michael R. Zimmerman, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 56, Issue 2 , (1981) Pages 207 - 208)
3-- and on top of that we have the cultural and archealogical data:
"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region.4 As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract. Why would this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
So, "black" pharoahs have "been black" and have been around long before the 25th Dynasty, and the above does not even count the early dynastic kings..
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Hay Mike ain't that your vid!!.
No BlackTruth came here a while back and tried to get us to switch to his site, Black Truth and Mike are totally different in philosophy..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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