Are people indigenous South Africans tropically adapted? If so explain why. South Africa is at similar latitude to Chile and Argentina
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It was a stupid question when astenb asked it, it is still a stupid when you ask it.
Don't either of you know how to read a book? Any reasonable source will tell you that ALL modern humans are tropically Adapted, regardless of skin color - they did evolve in Africa, or did you forget that? Yet ass-holes like you two, continually harken back to the myths of Albinos.
That's just plain stupid.
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Anthropology 152 Lecture 16: The Origin of Homo sapiens and the Peopling of the Earth , Part I
university of california davis
Quote: Overall the Neandertalis build for heat retention as we would expect after its 300,000+ year experience in the high latitudes of Europe.
• Homo sapiens is build for heat dissipation as we would expect from a tropically adapted mammal. -Linear body -Long limbs -Relatively long forearms and lower legs -Further support for the view that our people evolved in the tropics.
Ass-hole, unless you are saying that Albinos are not human, they are tropically adapted.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: It was a stupid question when astenb asked it, it is still a stupid when you ask it.
Don't either of you know how to read a book? Any reasonable source will tell you that ALL modern humans are tropically Adapted, regardless of skin color - they did evolve in Africa, or did you forget that? Yet ass-holes like you two, continually harken back to the myths of Albinos.
That's just plain stupid.
I didnt ask the question I only posted the map. Unfortunately with the company that we keep here its rare to catch me asking any type of "questions". Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Are people indigenous South Africans tropically adapted? If so explain why. South Africa is at similar latitude to Chile and Argentina
Evergreen Writes:
The indigenous people of South Africa would be supratropical. Unlike the indigenous people of North Africa there is evidence in South Africa of human habitation of great antiquity. The NE Africans on the otherhand migrated to NE Africa from the tropics during the late pleistocene as evidenced by their osteology.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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The indigenous people of South Africa would be supratropical. Unlike the indigenous people of North Africa there is evidence in South Africa of human habitation of great antiquity. The NE Africans on the otherhand migrated to NE Africa from the tropics during the late pleistocene as evidenced by their osteology. [/QB]
But some of the climates, like in the Capes are described as Mediterranean
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I don't see how what he said contradicts with what you've said just above.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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I don't see how what he said contradicts with what you've said just above.
A climate isn't defined by it's past condition. The most common usage of the prefix supra means "above". The Levant and the Cape of South Africa seem to have similar climates. But point taken, if other climates have general names it is inconsistent to use the term Mediterranean which is specific to a place when other place with a similar type of climate are not in the Mediterranean region, perhaps Eurocentric to name a climate after that. The question could be rephrased:
Of people who have long period ancestry in supra-tropical climates detectably different in limb proportion. This includes some indigenous Southern South Africans and Mediterranean/Levantine people also possibly, some North Africans or indigenous people in the Southern half of Argentina.
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]...people who have long period ancestry in supra-tropical climates detectably different in limb proportion. This includes ....possibly, some North Africans ....
Evregreen Writes: Anything is "possible" however, we have a long osteological record in NE Africa that indicates from the Late Pleistocene through the Bronze Age NE Africans retained tropical limbs. Hence we can move from possible to a scientific probable in this part of the world.
Of interest, as late as the mesolithic period Europeans still retained tropical limb proportions.
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South African Bantu have tropical limb indexes. This is not surprising, since they are relatively recent settlers in southern Africa. San "Bushmen" however, have reported a "sub-tropical" limb ratio average. This may be a reflection of their residency in the region for greater time lengths than their Bantu-speaking neighbors. Needless to say, the settler white community also report "sub-tropical" ratio average.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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The ancient Egyptians, like the Bantu groups of southern Africa, had retained tropical limb proportions, which signals that they were relatively recent migrants from tropical Africa.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Significant differences were found both in stature and in raw long bone length mea- surements between the early semipastoral population and the later intensive agricultural population. The size dif- ferences were greater in males than in females.....
The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations....
The MK material all derives from Gebelein. Evi- dence from stelae suggests that, by the MK, Gebe- lein had a colony of Nubian mercenaries who mar- ried into the local Egyptian population (Fischer, 1961). These stelae indicate that the Nubian merce- naries lived with and were buried near the Egyptian community they served, and that they were buried in an Egyptian manner. The sample included in this study may thus represent Nubians, Egyptians, or some of each group.....
These results must remain provisional due to the relatively small sample sizes and the lack of skeletal material that cross-cuts all social and economic groups within each time period. Further research on recently ex- cavated skeletal material is therefore needed to further address the issues raised
by SR Zakrzewski - 2003 Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions
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Whether one group had "more" tropical limb proportions, whatever that means -- beats me, is irrelevant. Not a single indigenous Nile Valley specimen from predynastic to Dynastic has reported anything outside of a tropical limb index.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length using Trotter & Gleser negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material...
When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed "super-negroid". - Robins, 1986.
Understanding this, anybody with half a sense will see why trying to invoke "Middle Kingdom Nubians" as a reason, is just intellectually irresponsible. Of course, 'white' analysts who themselves conduct these studies have been known to make efforts to spin away why ancient Egyptian specimens consistently conform to "Negro" body proportions, by rambling on about some obscure element that rarely has relevance [i.e. to the findings at hand] or concrete (evidential) grounding. Just can't cheat facts; they have a way of seeping through one way or another.
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^^^^ that does carry weight but what about the small sample sizes, even in compiling all skeletal remains found. Is it enough to generalize? What are the actual approximate total number of skeletal remains that have been examined for limb proportion and how broad the geographical range?
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It does more than just carry weight, it totally obliterates the purpose you cited the Zakrzewski piece for. You have no clue what sample size was used in the above estimations given in the Robins piece. Your gratuitous supposition is not what is. Plus, sample sizes are irrelevant, because what we are looking at is consistency through changing time spans, from predynastic to Dynastic. Plus, the pattern is consistent from predynastic Upper Egypt specimens to Lower Egyptian specimens. In my book, that is substantial enough to draw a conclusion. What is unacceptable, is a prior suppositions in lieu of material-laden counterraction, as you often do.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Plus, sample sizes are irrelevant,
no honest anthropologist would say that
or that what geographical range is covered in a given study is irrelevant
You and others question other studies on these very same grounds
-when the conclusions are not to your liking.
I think sample size and range are important issues because the very scientists that you use to quote from point this out
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Plus, sample sizes are irrelevant,
no honest anthropologist would say that
Anybody with even half an inch of a brain cell, would understand how that makes sense under the context it was made.
quote: or that what geographical range is covered in a given study is irrelevant
This is your own conclusion.
quote: You and others question other studies on these very same grounds
...presented in entirely different contexts, yes!
My commentary has solid intellectual grounding. It is obviously miles ahead of flimsy emotional suppositions that you throw back in the face of material that does not rock your boat.
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To add salt to injury, notes from your own source: Zakrzewski:
Acknowledging the significance of previous research...
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex.
And acknowledgement that...
"The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans."
The keywords: the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans.
Meaning, trying to spin away by calling for some "exotic" non-Egyptian source for these trends, is a matter of not using wit. The pattern would not be general, if it were exotically-sourced. Rather, it would be an enigma, an aberration or an outlier.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Are people indigenous South Africans tropically adapted? If so explain why. South Africa is at similar latitude to Chile and Argentina [/QUOTE]
UH, you do realize South africa has a wide range of climate and that the tropic zone is adjacent to SOuth africa and that people from said tropic zone can and did move into South Africa over recorded history?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: To add salt to injury, notes from your own source: Zakrzewski:
Acknowledging the significance of previous research...
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex.
And acknowledgement that...
"The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans."
The keywords: the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans.
Meaning, trying to spin away by calling for some "exotic" non-Egyptian source for these trends, is a matter of not using wit. The pattern would not be general, if it were exotically-sourced. Rather, it would be an enigma, an aberration or an outlier.
^^lol..
A little more salt- we know how Raxter and Ruff, using a heavy batch of northern samples ran anotherlimb proportion study. The results are the same. AEs cluster closer to tropical people like US Blacks than whites.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: It was a stupid question when astenb asked it, it is still a stupid when you ask it.
Don't either of you know how to read a book? Any reasonable source will tell you that ALL modern humans are tropically Adapted, regardless of skin color - they did evolve in Africa, or did you forget that? Yet ass-holes like you two, continually harken back to the myths of Albinos.
That's just plain stupid.
I didnt ask the question I only posted the map. Unfortunately with the company that we keep here its rare to catch me asking any type of "questions".
lol! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^ that does carry weight but what about the small sample sizes, even in compiling all skeletal remains found. Is it enough to generalize? What are the actual approximate total number of skeletal remains that have been examined for limb proportion and how broad the geographical range?
The only people that could possibly be indigenous to South Africa are San and Kung types. So your question is dead on arrival - AS USUAL.
Whatever they are it sure isn't North Pole adapted?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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The usual reply of our "biodiversity" friends is to say "oh, limb proportions are adaptive, not genetic." This is woefully ignorant. Adaptive traits are accumulated in a population and passed on.
quote: Adaptive traits are inherited characteristics that confer a reproductive advantage to the portion of the population processing them.. As adaptive, or reproductively advantageous, traits are passed on from surviving individuals to their offspring, the individuals carrying these traits will increase in numbers within the population, and the population as a whole will gradually change. Darwin called this process, in which organisms having adaptive traits survive in greater numbers that those without such traits, natural selection." S. Alters. (1999) Biology: understanding life. p. 536
quote: "Adaptive traits accumulate within a population. As a result of natural selection, various traits become moreor less common in a population, and the overall character of the individuals within that population changes. For example, if a ling bill is both heritable and adaptive, then, over time, more and more hummingbirds will have a longer bill. In this example, the genetic traits that allow a hummingbird to get more nectar faster are adaptive traits. They are triats that allow it to reproduce more successfully than birds with shorter bills." --A. Tobin, J. Duscheck. Asking about life. (2004) p. 322
PS: Question for Explorer/Astenb et al:
Arent' limb proportions more stable and enduring than other traits? I mean facial features, skin color, hair etc seems much more malleable, but yet over centuries, limb proportions show what they show without that kind of change. Is this accurate?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: [QUOTE]Originally posted by The Explorer: [qb] To add salt to injury, notes from your own source: Zakrzewski:
Acknowledging the significance of previous research...
acknowledgement that...
"The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans."
The keywords: the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans.
Meaning, trying to spin away by calling for some "exotic" non-Egyptian source for these trends, is a matter of not using wit. The pattern would not be general, if it were exotically-sourced. Rather, it would be an enigma, an aberration or an outlier.
Why isn't the statement
the Egyptians have tropical body plans
?
why did they add the word "generally"
the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans
.For example European hair is generally straight but 15% are curly haired
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^ that does carry weight but what about the small sample sizes, even in compiling all skeletal remains found. Is it enough to generalize? What are the actual approximate total number of skeletal remains that have been examined for limb proportion and how broad the geographical range?
The only people that could possibly be indigenous to South Africa are San and Kung types. So your question is dead on arrival - AS USUAL.
Whatever they are it sure isn't North Pole adapted?
We all know they are lighter skinned, that tells you something right there about a different type of adaptation in the region, moreso in SA than Namibia
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^ that does carry weight but what about the small sample sizes, even in compiling all skeletal remains found. Is it enough to generalize? What are the actual approximate total number of skeletal remains that have been examined for limb proportion and how broad the geographical range?
Evergreen Writes: Sample size and micro-geographic population analysis can be legitimate lines of inquiry within the proper framework and mental model. However, what is telling for me is that you are requesting proof that Africans are really Africans.
Virtually every line of evidence indicates that in the main, holocene era NE Africans (i.e., Egyptians) descend from populations that migrated from the south - tropical Africa. Regardless of the sample size or location within the Nile Valley, your mental model is skewed, because you seek validation that tropical Africans have tropical appearance. A better mental model would seek proof of evidence that tropical Africans carried non-tropical physical characteristics.
Evergreen Posts:
Clines and Clusters Versus “Race:” A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile
CL Brace et. al
The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature- namely skin color and limb proportions. This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “super- Carpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.”
It makes far better sense to regard the adaptively significant features seen in the Horn of Africa as solely an in situ response on the part of separate adaptive traits to the selective forces present in the hot dry tropics of eastern Africa. From the observation that 12,000 years was not a long enough period of time to produce any noticeable variation in pigment by latitude in the New World and that 50,000 years has been barely long enough to produce the beginnings of a gradation in Australia (Brace, 1993a1, one would have to argue that the inhabitants of the Upper Nile and the East Horn of Africa have been equatorial for many tens of thousands of years.Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Evergreen Posts:
Clines and Clusters Versus “Race:” A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile
CL Brace et. al
It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “super- Carpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.”
Evergreen Writes: I would add the context that Brace's comments above pre-date more recent genetic studies showing that most late paleolithic Africans are united phylogenetically by the PN2 clade. Blacks of Asia such as "Veddoids" do not carry this lineage.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: South African Bantu have tropical limb indexes.
^ Of course. And for the same reasons that ancient Egyptians have tropical limb ratios - They both originated in tropical Africa.
Deniers of the African Ancient Egypt may feel free to pretend that they are having a hard time understanding this. Posts: 23 | Registered: Dec 2010
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^^lol. you cant get any more plainer. Here's another definition of "tropically adapted" for the dull and vapid "lioness"..
"The limb proportions of Nariokotome [hominid from Kenya, Fossil KNM-WT 15000] indicate specifically tropical proportions. Modern human limb proportions vary clinally with ambient temperature (Trinkhaus 1981, 1983a; Holliday 1997a,b). Tropically adapted populations have relatively longer and thinner limbs than populations adapted to colder climates, and this difference appears early in childhood (Eveleth and Tanner 1976). Tropically adapted groups also have relatively longer distal limb elements (tibia and radius, as compared to femur and humerus) than groups in colder climates. These patterns reflect the wider generalization known as Allen's Rule (Allen 1877) - that warm-blooded animals in hot climates have skinnier, more attentuated extremities and bodies than their cold-climates relatives, giving the tropical forms a higher surface-to-volume ratio for more effective dissipation of body heat." -- (M. Cartmill, F. Smith, K. Brown (2006). The Human Lineage. Wiley. p. 259)
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
Evergreen Posts:
Clines and Clusters Versus “Race:” A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile
CL Brace et. al
It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “super- Carpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.”
[b]Evergreen Writes: I would add the context that Brace's comments above pre-date more recent genetic studies showing that most late paleolithic Africans are united phylogenetically by the PN2 clade. Blacks of Asia such as "Veddoids" do not carry this lineage.
^^Probably somewhere in the ES achives but can you post study date and citation again Evergreen?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Both if u have them. Specifically the PN2 references.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Arent' limb proportions more stable and enduring than other traits? I mean facial features, skin color, hair etc seems much more malleable, but yet over centuries, limb proportions show what they show without that kind of change. Is this accurate?
This is what I always say about craniometry. Unlike post-cranial body metrics, many of the more visible segments of the cranium can show superficial similarities that crosscuts latitudes and geography. However, body proportions show more definite patterns that are specific to latitudinal clime, and hence are more immediately able to discern territorial ancestry with little ambiguity. And yes, body proportions appear to take more time before they give way to considerably new patterns, particularly without recent gene flow from an external source. For instance, as Holliday noted, even in late Upper Paleolithic European specimens, there is this paradoxical existence of the retention of tropical limb and limb-trunk ratios in accompaniment with "shorter" limb lengths, that seems to suggest a change in length of limb segments from relatively longer to shorter metrics, as part of the evolutionary response to adapting to the cold-environment of Europe. The two metrics are distinct, one has to understand. Add to this element of limb shortening, the tendency towards body mass elevation as noted by Bergmann and hence, increase in such elements like the femoral head size/diameter. This interesting mix of tropical metrics with "sub-tropical" metrics in late Upper Paleolithic European specimens suggest an evolutionary transitory state, from a tropical-metric pattern to a "cold-adapted" one, and perhaps exemplifies how it takes time for the post-cranial segment of body to adapt to new environmental pressures.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I think that using limb proportions for determining ancestry can be a little dicey too. For instance I am African American, but my limbs are short and would be in the cold adapted range ( farther from sub tropical then closer) but I am African American so I don't think that you can rule out the importance of craniometry. Craniometry and limb proportions are both necessary and you just can't discard either of them. I would be very far away from the ancient Egyptians in terms of limb proportions
Posts: 89 | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Topic: Are people indigenous to South Africa tropically adapted?
The only people known to have inhabited southern Africa for a long enough period of time are the KhoiSan to be considered indigenous.
So of course the answer to the original query is yes, they are tropically adapted.
You have to understand what tropical adaptations entail before you you solely rely on one trait.
Limb proportions are not the sole implication of tropical adaptation, skin color is also in correlation with tropical adaptation.
The south African KhoiSan are noted to sport intermediate limb proportions which would be likely since they have been noted to have lived in a sub-tropical environment for millennia.
Despite their reduction in limb indices and even melanization, the Khoi-San have retained enough melanin to naturally survive in the south African environment naked.
The same can not be said for non Africans coming from Europe living within Africa.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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You have to understand what tropical adaptations entail before you you solely rely on one trait.
Ditto to all said in the your last comment, but especially so for the statement above. The super-curled up or pepper corn hair, like their skin color, looks to be a relic of their tropical African heritage.
Part of the San territory still lies in the tropics, and so, if enough sampling was done to all San territories involved, and not just the more southern situated ones [as those usually used in science journals], I suspect that there will be an interesting cline of limb-ratio/body proportion indices.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: PS: Question for Explorer/Astenb et al:
Arent' limb proportions more stable and enduring than other traits? I mean facial features, skin color, hair etc seems much more malleable, but yet over centuries, limb proportions show what they show without that kind of change. Is this accurate?
The understanding of limb proportional indices is that it notes a recent immigration or simply not an adaptation to an environment that it conflicts with.
Ex;
In this sense tropical limb proportional indices are noteworthy when found in a cold environment and vice versa.
It notes the individual could not have adapted therein this environment.
Facial features can and are often misconstrued with all the imbeciles claiming that people can be divided into simplistic races based on cranio-metry.
What tropical limb proportions do is blow simplified cranio-metrics away as it shows in a cold environment an individual whose features are supposed to be considered "Caucasoid" is that contrary to the belief, a tropical individual regardless of the fallacious facial features supposedly indicative of cold adaptation do have immense diversity.
Of course this should be evo-anthropology 101 as humans arose and have lived in Africa atleast 100ky before successfully migrating out to populate the world.
In this case tropical adaptations trumps cranio-metry.
It's more immediate to the point instead of relying on old preconceived notions on how an African is supposed to look.
Since the limb proportions of tropical people have been included the more matches have arisen amongst modern tropical people of the Saharo-tropical Africa and ancient Egyptians.
This is what hurts the anti-African
The ancient Egyptians were extremely tropically adapted, this notes that the supposed outside "Caucasoid" traits are fallacious.
This is noted amongst many other east African populations who have been claimed by anti-Africans to have recieved thinner features such as nose and lips from non Africans.
These individuals I am speaking of, I.E. Somalis Ethiopians etc...exhibit extreme tropical limb proportional indices and some of the darkest skin in the world despite supposedly having "Caucasian" features from non Africans.
Begs the question; if these features are supposedly due to outside influence then why hasn't the East Africans in question limb proportional indices and skin color changed?
It's a never ending feud trying to explain to people who just don't want to hear it.
What would've happened if these east Africans were so heavily influenced genetically by non Africans is their limb proportional indices would've became more intermediate between non Africans and indigenous Africans and skin color lightened.
We can see this change of appearance amongst geographically proximate populations in northern Africa who are known to have been heavily influenced genetically by non Africans.
The logic has to be put forward, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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I think that using limb proportions for determining ancestry can be a little dicey too. For instance I am African American, but my limbs are short
Having short limbs in itself is not indicative of cold or tropical adaptation. Rather, it is the limb segment ratios or intermembral ratio, or yet limb-trunk ratio that evaluate the adaptive quality the post-crania segment. In the case of the late Upper Paleolithic Europeans, as noted above, the shortening of the limbs was noted as a comparative observation against the trends in earlier Upper Paleolithic European specimens. The keyword: trends.
quote: Craniometry and limb proportions are both necessary and you just can't discard either of them. I would be very far away from the ancient Egyptians in terms of limb proportions
Of course, each element is necessary...ONLY when used in proper context. The problem with craniometry is that when it falls into the wrong hands, and heck, at times even the "right hands", it is used to imply relations that do not necessarily exist. Craniometry is good for understanding the clinal nature of human diversity, and assessing diversity-by-distance (isolation-by-distance) from the most probable homeland of humanity, which happens to be Africa, in the real world...as well as, trying to understand how different environmental pressures chime in to shape cranial morphology. Way too many elements factor into cranio-morphometry when compared against post-cranial anatomy. It is a fairly complex part of the body, having nervous, sensory to masticatory elements on it. Therefore, it is subject to more pressures than just annual mean temperature pressures. This is what makes craniometry less predictable as marker of a singular geographical source. The post-cranial anatomy on the other hand, has mainly two general things to be responsive to: its robusticity as a reflection of socio-occupational activity and temperature regulation. The former, with regards to robusticity, many human populations now rely on agriculture, and so there is not much structuring going on there from a geographical or latitudinal standpoint. However, the temperature factor remains to be a force to be reckoned with, and hence, geo-climatic structuring can be discerned from sampling indigenous residents of designated geographical climes.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^That is a perfect explanation. Might be a little too much though for many who would like to ignore the logical science being applied..
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ceasar: I think that using limb proportions for determining ancestry can be a little dicey too. For instance I am African American, but my limbs are short and would be in the cold adapted range ( farther from sub tropical then closer) but I am African American so I don't think that you can rule out the importance of craniometry. Craniometry and limb proportions are both necessary and you just can't discard either of them. I would be very far away from the ancient Egyptians in terms of limb proportions
Limb proportions here show that the ancient Egyptians came from a place within tropical Africa.
Being an African American you consider yourself and are considered black and African correct?
The acknowledgement and commonality here is that the ancient Egyptians would have been considered the same.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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^^I agree, but there is only so much that one can simplify these complex matters to. Some of us have to just learn to catch up, by taking a little bit of what info is shared, and then researching further on our own time. Alas, some of us are too lazy and/or too ideological to do that.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Are people indigenous South Africans tropically adapted? If so explain why. South Africa is at similar latitude to Chile and Argentina
No, the aboriginal inhabitants of South Africa (I presume you are referring to the Khoisan peoples) are not tropically adapted. Their limb proportions are intermediate between those of tropical Africans and Europeans:
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Posts: 7080 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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^ Basically you ignored all posts typed prior to yours?
If you would have taken the time to read the comments preceding your post you probably wouldn't have made that nonsensical remark.
quote:You have to understand what tropical adaptations entail before you you solely rely on one trait. Limb proportions are not the sole implication of tropical adaptation, skin color is also in correlation with tropical adaptation.
^Add on the tightly coiled hair Khoisan possess as noted by Explorer.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ceasar: I think that using limb proportions for determining ancestry can be a little dicey too. For instance I am African American, but my limbs are short and would be in the cold adapted range ( farther from sub tropical then closer) but I am African American so I don't think that you can rule out the importance of craniometry. Craniometry and limb proportions are both necessary and you just can't discard either of them. I would be very far away from the ancient Egyptians in terms of limb proportions
You don't know what you have in you Caesar if you are African American. Besides you might be derived from a variety of African types which could have lead to the short limbs you have.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^^Yes. As Explorer said the key word is trend or pattern. Trying to make a rigid rule that says ALL tropical peoples MUST have a certain build is not only unrealistic but is an attempt to build yet another bogus "true negro" style construct, a stereotypical strawman conveniently allowing everything else to then be labeled "mixed" or 'Caucasian."
Tropical people, vary like other populations, but overall, on the average show certain clear patterns. And the Khosians are closer to other tropically adapted populations like African Americans than to cold adapted populations like whites.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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