‘‘…Herakles is depicted as a curly-haired African Black’’ (Martin Bernall, Black Athena, Vol. 1) ==========================================
Ancient Greek literature is filled with descriptions of Heracles; he is described as yellow haired by Euripides (Heracles, 360):
''First he cleared the grove of Zeus of a lion, and put its skin upon his back, hiding his yellow hair in its fearful tawny gaping jaws.''
Pausanias (9. 34. 5) added that Heracles had light coloured eyes and earned the surname ‘‘Charops’’ meaning ‘‘with bright eyes’’. Furthermore classical literature itself preserves many physical descriptions of the Heracleidae. Telephus for example is found described by the poet Horace as snow-white skinned.*
The Afrocentric claim Herakles was a curly haired African Black is an outright lie.
‘‘Helen, the cause of the Trojan War, must…be conceived as a beautiful brown skin girl’’ (George Wells Parker, Journal of Negro History, 1917) ==========================================
Helen is described as white skinned by Homer having the epithet ‘‘Leukôlenos’’ meaning ‘‘white-armed’’ (Iliad, 3. 121).
Other ancient sources add Helen was blonde, with blue eyes.* She was not then dark, or brown skinned.
*Daretis Phygii de excidio Trojae Historia, 12; Posthomerica, 14. 40, Iphigenia in Aulis, 677.
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Afrocentric Claim: Zeus was called Aethiops because he was Black
‘‘The chief title of Zeus, greatest of the Greek gods, was 'ETHIOPS', that is 'BLACK'’’ (http://pages.prodigy.net/saraswati/webdoc3.htm) =====================================
Zeus had the nickname ‘‘Aethiops’’, but it was very rare, certainly not a ‘‘chief title’’. In fact it only appears once in Lycophron’s Alexandra.
Secondly, Aethiops has multiple meanings or definitions and can mean ‘‘glowing’’* , not solely meaning ‘‘black’’.
*Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, William Smith, V. 1, p. 50. =======================
Afrocentric Claim: Sappho of Lesbos was Black
‘‘Sappho of Lesbos… was an African woman, she self-described herself as dark.’’ (Ivan Van Sertima, African Presence in Early Europe, 1985) ===========================
Afrocentrics here have misread a fragment of text where Sappho is compared physically to her daughter. The text in question is a fragment from one of Sappho's own poems dedicated to her daughter Cleis (Fragment 98a)* :
‘‘I have no embroidered headband from Sardis to give you, Cleis. Once I wore one and my mother said that in her days a purple ribbon looped in the hair was high style indeed. But we were dark; a girl whose hair is yellower than torchlight should dress her hair with nothing but fresh flowers’’
What is revealed is that Sappho and her mother had dark hair, while Cleis had yellow hair. The fragment of this poem is concerned about hair colour, not skin.
*Vv. 1-12: (Papyrus Hauniensis), Sappho: A New Translation, University of California Press, 1958.
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Afrocentric Claim: Eurybates was Black
‘‘Eurybates…probably of Negroid extraction’’ (Frank M. Snowden, The Negro in Ancient Greece, 1948) ==========================
Eurybates according to Homer was round-shouldered, dark skinned and curly haired.*
This does not mean he was Negroid; many Mediterranean populations have curly hair and darkish olive complexions.
*Odyssey, 19. 246 ff.
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Afrocentric Claim: Aesop was Black
‘‘Aesop was… [an] African slave, flat-nosed, thick lips, Black skin from which his name was contracted…’’ (www.africanholocaust.net/africanlegends.htm)
=============================
That Aesop was Black is not solely an Afrocentric claim. It first appeared during the Middle Ages amongst grammarians (i.e. Maximus Planudes) who attempted to connect Aesop’s name to Aethiopia.
Bear in mind these grammarians were writing well over 1500 years after Aesop lived.
Virtually nothing is positively known about Aesop from his own period. The place of his birth is even uncertain: Thrace, Phrygia, Ethiopia, Samos, Athens and Sardis have all been proposed by various ancient writers.
The first physical descriptions and artistic portrayals of Aesop’s also emerged hundreds of years after his death.
There is simply therefore no evidence that Aesop was Black. It should also be noted the earliest (Roman) statues of Aesop don’t contain any noticeable Negroid features.
==================
Afrocentric Claim: The Minoans were African
‘‘Minoan Crete – African Influenced forerunner of European Civilizations’’ (http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/crete.html)
=======================
There were indeed links between Africa and the ancient Minoans on Crete; numerous archaeologists and scholars have established such links. These African populations though were not Sub-Saharan African (Blacks) but were North African Berbers. Physically, genetically and culturally the Berbers have close ties to Mediterranean people.
Afrocentrics are distorting the word ‘‘African’’ and only equating it to Blacks, when in actual fact it is a word which geographically, ethnically and culturally relates to many diverse races (not all dark skinned) living on the same continent.
=======================
Afrocentric Claim: Memnon was Black
‘‘Black Memnon, King of Ethiopia, was one of the greatest of heroes…’’ (W.E.B. Du Bois, The Negro, 1915)
=============================
The equation of Memnon to a Black Ethiopian was not Homeric, but originated with a far later Greek tradition. In his Posthomerica (2. 133) the epic poet Quintus Smynaeus (well over a thousand years after Homer lived) wrote that Black Ethiopians fought at Troy having being led by Memnon their king:
‘‘But no long time thereafter came to them Memnon the warrior-king, and brought with him a countless host of swarthy Aethiops’’
Earlier ancient writers in sharp contrast (i.e. Herodotus and Aeschylus) claimed that Memnon was an Asiatic Cissian, and founder of Susa – not a Black Ethiopian.
Of course, Afrocentrics fail to cite these sources and only latch onto Smynaeus, but from the ancient writer Philostratus we have a clear physical description of Memnon which debunks the idea he was black or dark brown skinned and implies he was a lighter skinned Asiatic:*
‘‘…Notice to what huge length he lies on the ground, and how long is the crop of curls... You would not say that Memnon’s skin is really black, for the darkness of it shows a trace of ruddiness (redness)…’’
*Imagines, 1. 7 ============================
Afrocentric Claim: The Ancient Greeks and Romans believed the Black Ethiopians were Moral
‘‘The ancient Greeks believed the Black Ethiopians had great piety and moral virtue’’ (Frank M. Snowden, Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman experience, 1970) =====================
This claim is obviously false and stems from the fact that the Afrocentrics don’t distinguish between the eastern and western Ethiopians. The former were the ‘‘Blameless’’, highly moral, pious people Homer and other ancients wrote about in ASIA. The latter were the Blacks of Southern Africa, who were not looked great upon by the ancient Greeks.
In ancient sources the Black Ethiopians are linked to savagery, demons, evil and lustful behaviour, poor intelligence and violence.
Consider for example the following sources:
Plutarch wrote a story about a Greek woman whose racially mixed baby caused her to be accused of adultery with a Black Ethiopian.*
According to Cassius Dio, the Roman emperor Domitian invented men to be terrorized in a room which was covered in paintings of Black African slave boys. These he believed represented phantoms because their dark skin denoted evil.*
Juvenal (VI) wrote the Black Ethiopians were an adulterous race.
Horace’s famous proverb:
‘‘Hic niger es; hunc tu, Romane, caveto’’
Meaning -
‘‘He is black, beware of him, Roman’’.
The Romans did not trust the black ethiopians because they were considered an adulterous savage race.
Afrocentric Claim: Romans with the Gens name Niger were Black Africans
‘‘Romans with Niger as their surname were Black men’’ (Joel A. Rogers, Nature knows No Color Line)
====================
One of the biggest claims by Afrocentrics is that the name ‘‘Niger’’ was given to Romans who were Black Africans, based on the fact Niger meant black or dark.
Many notable Roman historical figures had Niger in their name i.e.: Pescennius Niger, Aquilus Niger, Brutidius Niger, now were these men Black?
No of course they weren't, as ancient Roman writings themselves prove.
In the Historia Augusta, it is explained how Pescennius got his name:
‘‘His countenance was dignified and always somewhat ruddy; his neck was so black that many men say that he was called Niger on this account. The rest of his body, however, was very white..’’*
Clearly Pescennius derived his name because he had an unusual black neck, but note how the text states the rest of his body was completely white.
*The Life of Prescennius Niger, 6. 5-7. =========================
Afrocentric Claim: Terence was Black
‘‘And going all of the way back to my first reading of Joel Augustus Rogers' World's Great Men of Color I found out about the African-Roman writer Publius Terentius Afer (190-159 B.C.E.). It was this African, Terence, who penned the immortal words, "I am a man and nothing human is alien to me.’’ (http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/rome3.html) =============
Terence’s ancestry was Libyan. We know this from the Roman grammarian Donatus in his Commentum Terenti.
The ancient Libyans were not Black. ====================
Afrocentric Claim: The ancient Greeks and Romans admired Black beauty
‘‘…the beauty of black women was much admired in ancient Greece and Rome’’ (Ivan Van Sertima, Black Women in Antiquity, 1988) ================
The truth is the opposite.
Ancient Greeks and Romans actually believed that dark skin and especially Negroid features were hideous and not natural.
Claudian wrote of a ‘‘hideous hybrid’’ being the result of a black father and white mother (De Bello Gildonico, 1. 189).
The Roman writer Petronius describes Black Africans as follows (Satyricon, 102) -
''...can we give ourselves the hideous swollen lips of the African? Can we transform our hair to wool with curling-tongs? Can we scar our brows with rows of ugly wrinkles?''
How did the ancient Greeks and Romans account for the ugliness of the Negro?
They had a mythical story that Blacks were the result of an extreme case of sun burning and deformity by phaeton’s chariot which scorched Africa and some parts of Asia (Ov. Met, 2. 235: Hy. Fabulae, 154).
Plato wrote the following on skin colour and beauty (Republic, 474e):
‘‘The swarthy are of manly aspect, the white are the children of the Gods’’
Plato related white skin to the physical appearence of the Gods while swarthy or dark skin to those of ‘‘manly aspect’’.
Aristotle expanded on this (On the Generation of Animals, 1. 20):
“Those who are fair skinned and of a feminine type generally, but not in those who are dark and of a masculine appearance”
In the eyes of Aristotle and Plato, white skinned females were feminine and delicate, while dark skinned women (i.e. Black woman) looked like men and were unattractive.
This view is found amongst many other ancient Greek writers, for example Aristophanes (Ecclesiazusae, 385-387) and Diphilus (Schedia, Fragment 35) which both detail how women who acquired a darker complexion because of tanning under the sun were considered manly and unattractive.
==================
Afrocentric Claim: The ancient Greek and Roman Gods and Heroes were Black
‘‘Negroes were first worshipped in Greece and Rome. White masses bowed down to black deities. The rites of Apollo were founded by Delphos and his Negro mother.’’ (Joel A. Rogers, Nature Knows no Color Line) ===================
This claim is of course false. See the following tables.
The vast majority of ancient greek Gods and heroes were pale skinned with red or blonde hair.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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^^^^ Yeah I was wondering that too..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: All I keep seeing is dumb Eurocentrists refuting claims by the extremist, fringe who claim to be Afrocentric, but I have seen no actual refutations of claims made by Afrocentrists who are not of the fringe. I guess thats why the Eurocentrists and their whiners continue to attack and hold up the fringe as standard Afrocentrism and hide behind their strawman arguments such as stating that when Afrocentrics say AEs were black they *MUST* mean they look like "West African True Negroes," Though no one has made that claim.
So where are those actual refutations Eurocentrists? I'm still waiting.
^Indeed, they will even resort to quoting non-Afrocentrists (Bernal) in attempts to isolate questionable claims and associate them with "Afrocentrists", even something as silly and inane as the physical description of a half-man, half-God myth from Greek literature in a desperate attempt to show that "Afrocentrists" are WRONG (because everyone KNOWS that Hercules, the son of Zeus, was White, not Black).
^This is worse than Afronut's Jesus thread.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I was also wondering lol. I just guessed that his website was white-history or something. The sad thing is, that he seems to be uisng ES as his "new website" by spamming crap from his old one.
I haven't seen one person on this site ever make any of these claims. Although I'm sure some have, they are few and far between
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Afrocentric Liars Exposed: Very nice put together scholarship, OP.
LOL at you calling this "scholarship". Afronut, it is obvious that you and cassiterides are one and the same.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Billon antoninianus of Maximianus. Rome mint, officina 1, 291 CE. 21mm, 3.01g. Obverse: IMP MAXIMI-ANVS P F AVG. Radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right. Reverse: VIRTVS AVGG. Hercules standing facing, head left, club in right hand, lion-skin in left, trophy in crook of left arm. Exergue: XXIA Ref: RIC V 515 http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=68661.0 Of course the majority of coins and engravings have Hercules as white. Kirke, Daughter of the Sun
Kirke (Circe) is the daughter of Helios (the Sun) and the Okeanid, Perseis, which would make her the grand-daughter of Okeanos (Ocean). Kirke was also the sister of king Aietes (Aeetes) of Kolchis (Colchis).
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^^^^ How is what he is doing any different than Mike111 promoting his Website here on E.S. I honestly don't have a problem with this thread as Im not an Afrocentric. Cassiterides is the White version of Mike111.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Two black doves flew away from Egyptian Thebes, and while one directed its flight to Libya, the other came to them. She alighted on an oak, and sitting there began to speak with a human voice, and told them that on the spot where she was, there should henceforth be an oracle of Jove. They understood the announcement to be from heaven, so they set to work at once and erected the shrine. The dove which flew to Libya bade the Libyans to establish there the oracle of Ammon."
(The poet) Aeschylus’s, “Suppliant Maidens”, describes the Danides as “Black and smitten by the “sun”. (In the poem) when the Danaids claim an ethnic kinship to Epaphos, son of Zeus, the Argive king Pelops, rebukes them:
Nay, strangers, what ye tell is past belief For me to hear, that ye from Argos spring For ye to Libyan women are most like And no wise to our native maidens here.”” http://tribes.tribe.net/2012the-end-times/thread/91289bf0-d7d2-468f-b6aa-c0540d4d5762 Coin image from ancient Delphi, thought by Theodor Panofka to depict Delphos, the legendary founder of the city. William Martin Leake suggested such images might depict Aesop, presumably to commemorate his execution at Delphi. There are several such coin specimens from Delphi, dated as early as 520 BC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Delphi_coin_sharper.jpgPosts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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In the future, your posts should read, "A REBUTTAL to So-and-so theory" rather than "So-And-So refuted" since so far, none of your posts have succeeded in refuting anything.
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Lioness putting up pics without contexts is called spamming so whats the point of the above?
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ How is what he is doing any different than Mike111 promoting his Website here on E.S. I honestly don't have a problem with this thread as Im not an Afrocentric. Cassiterides is the White version of Mike111.
With the exception that he (Cassiterides) is far less intelligent, and his theories are no more than cut and pastes of other people's opinions.
Posts: 2403 | Registered: Feb 2010
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LOL, what a clown you are Mike does the same Sh#t, Copy N Paste a bunch of Racist Picture Spams.
Like I said How is he any different than Mike other than he advocates White Racism.
quote:Originally posted by MelaninKing:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ How is what he is doing any different than Mike111 promoting his Website here on E.S. I honestly don't have a problem with this thread as Im not an Afrocentric. Cassiterides is the White version of Mike111.
With the exception that he (Cassiterides) is far less intelligent, and his theories are no more than cut and pastes of other people's opinions.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Like I said How is he any different than Mike other than he advocates White Racism.
I'm not saying he should be silenced. However, the difference between Mike and Cassiterides is that Cas just starts a useless thread, accuses "afro-centrists" of making ridiculous claims, and then stops commenting on his thread. He doesn't even bother to debate things but just keeps repeating himself.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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L I'm not saying he should be silenced. However, the difference between Mike and Cassiterides is that Cas just starts a useless thread, accuses "afro-centrists" of making ridiculous claims, and then stops commenting on his thread. He doesn't even bother to debate things but just keeps repeating himself.
That's called spamming/trolling
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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No trolling is when you post an offtopic inflammatory, extraneous messages with the purpose to provoke a reaction or wind someone up, and that's all the Afrocentrics do on this forum - hence the posts the anglo-saxons were negroes to claims the japanese samuari also were black. No one sane deep down believes this (not even the afrocentrics posting it), these crackpot claims are only posted to provoke a reaction. Mostly Afrocentrics only post to wind up white people, though recently this has included asians as well, as afrocentrics these days are posting crackpottery and troll threads claiming the samauri or chinese emperors were black men with afros.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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Whatever their intent at the very least they don't leave the battle field. you make a string of post saying you debunked "Afrocentrist" claims yet when those so-called Afrocentrist present their case you disappear take for example your remark about Black Chinese Emperors,if your so-called Afrocentrist presents documents about Blk folks in ancient China or painting of Blks in ancient China is that crockpot ? or are you just sticking your head into the sand just because some "Afrocentrist" said it, why not attack their source? example No Afrocentrist made these paintings Nor this which is 20min walk from me in the Fukuoka museum showing lite skinned and black skinned invaders from China Ie Mongolians being repulsed by Japanese forces, you should attack the source not the person and definitely not quitting the battle field of ideas.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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^^^^^ If these people were black they were black Asians and in no way related to Black Africans other than general appearances.
Its funny how you all are so quick to paint Africans in Greece and Rome but so hesitant to talk about Eurasians in Egypt, and possibly Nubia and Ethiopia. You all rally about black arabs but never want to talk about the Lighter White Arabs etc. etc. To talk about that you get called a white person, get callled all kind of names, or a thread dedicated to you where someone stalks your every post in a desperate attempt to link you to a White Racist Youtuber.
As Much as Lioness pisses me off on here "Turks and Asiatics in Egypt, she is right in a way that there was eventually contact with Eurasians and Migrations of Non Africans to Kemet. That IMO still does not mean it was less African or Less black.
The same with Greece, Rome, China, and Europe. What ever trickle of Africans there were the Ruling Elite and Majority was native to the Land.
Cassiterides is just the White Version of Mike. You all claim he does not defend his theories, Well have you ever debated Mike?? Mike Might pretend to defend his theories but all he does is come up with some B.S excuse when me or Lioness(The only two to confront Mike's racism) point out his contradictions. For instance I already debated and defeated him on the Race of the Persians, yet he continues to pretend they were black claiming every translation from the Greco-Roman sources to the Arabic sources are "White Man's B.S"-His default copout excuse.
Cassiteredes is the white version of Mike. If it was Mike making these claims(Which he does) you all would accept it and not even bother to refute it.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I only defend indigenous peoples histories from the Afrocentrics.
I only believe Caucasians are native to parts of the middle-east, asian minor, the tip of north africa and Europe. In fact i often argue with white supremacists who claim whites were in North America before the native Indian. As i said i defend all indigenous peoples histories.
The only place blacks are native to is Sub-Sahara Africa, or the Australoids to Australia, south India, and some Polynesian or Melanesian Islands. No where else.
Blacks though never had a high culture of civilization. I mean if you look at the australoids or sub-saharan africans today - they still are eating each other and live in mud huts with no running water or electricity.
Australian aborigines are 50,000 or so years old, but still are primitive.
Afrocentrism deep down is an insecurity - all blacks know they never had a real history, so they try to steal other races.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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Jeri If you followed any of my postings on the subject you know damned well that I have never said these folks were Africans only as warrented.. as a matter of facts I consciously referred to these folks as Blk Asians and yes I have debated Mike on his theories times aplenty you just weren't paying attention and not true about no body not challanging Mike but you know what ? Mike holds his own as wrong as I think he is he never leave the battle field without a fight go over some of the ol threads Mike and I had.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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cassiterides The only place blacks are native to is Sub-Sahara Africa, or the Australoids to Australia, south India, and some Polynesian or Melanesian Islands. No where else.
Blacks though never had a high culture of civilization. I mean if you look at the australoids or sub-saharan africans today - they still are eating each other and live in mud huts with no running water or electricity.
Australian aborigines are 50,000 or so years old, but still are primitive.
Afrocentrism deep down is an insecurity - all blacks know they never had a real history, so they try to steal other races.
See what I mean now ask him to back that Sh!!t up!! you will get nothing but yet another post saying the same sh!!t altleast Mike and others have their own working theories about things wrong as I think they are at times especially the Albino crap.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Im a realist. Some of the stuff you bring up is interesting Like the info on how Europeans such as Britons and Celts and Irish saw themselves etc. However your claim to "Defend" native people is just conjecture on your part. First off Blacks were native to North Africa including Egypt. If you were unbiased you would realize that Egypt was founded by people we would call black. Also the Idea that so called "Caucasians" inhabited a vast area from Northern Europe to Mesopotamia, the Steppes etc, but blacks only are contained to on place on Earth is the very definition of racial bias. Blacks are and were not contained to one part of the Earth, they were found in the Middle East, Indo-China, and Arabia.
Also this talk about Africans not having Running water is a generalization of all Africans. As some Africans nations are developing Nations and have a Rich history like Nigeria, Botswana, etc.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: - I'm not a white version of 'mike'...
I only defend indigenous peoples histories from the Afrocentrics.
I only believe Caucasians are native to parts of the middle-east, asian minor, the tip of north africa and Europe. In fact i often argue with white supremacists who claim whites were in North America before the native Indian. As i said i defend all indigenous peoples histories.
The only place blacks are native to is Sub-Sahara Africa, or the Australoids to Australia, south India, and some Polynesian or Melanesian Islands. No where else.
Blacks though never had a high culture of civilization. I mean if you look at the australoids or sub-saharan africans today - they still are eating each other and live in mud huts with no running water or electricity.
Australian aborigines are 50,000 or so years old, but still are primitive.
Afrocentrism deep down is an insecurity - all blacks know they never had a real history, so they try to steal other races.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:I only believe Caucasians are native to parts of the middle-east, asian minor, the tip of north africa and Europe. In fact i often argue with white supremacists who claim whites were in North America before the native Indian. As i said i defend all indigenous peoples histories.
I have already shown you that "Caucasian" is not a race. If you believe Caucasians are native to north Africa, then you would be upset to know that Egyptians came from sub-Saharan Africa, and thus won't fit into your definition
quote:The only place blacks are native to is Sub-Sahara Africa, or the Australoids to Australia, south India, and some Polynesian or Melanesian Islands. No where else
1)Ethiopians are in sub-Saharan Africa and they have extremely narrow features
2)Somalis are in sub-Saharan Africa and have extremely narrow features
3)The biological origins of Egyptians lie in sub-Saharan Africa
Either way, your Egypt BS is debunked by your own beliefs
quote:Blacks though never had a high culture of civilization. I mean if you look at the australoids or sub-saharan africans today - they still are eating each other and live in mud huts with no running water or electricity.
Feel free to stay ignorant as long as you want. For the above statement is a sign that you do not know a thing about sub-Saharan culture and civilizations.
quote:Australian aborigines are 50,000 or so years old, but still are primitive.
Afrocentrism deep down is an insecurity - all blacks know they never had a real history, [b]so they try to steal other races[b].
Hypocrite. Your other thread tries to claim Egyptians as white Caucasians. All we do here is realize Egypt as an African civilization that developed in Africa. How many people here have you actually seen try to claim central/northern Europe as "black"? Which is why your threads are silly. Not only that, but once someone calls you out you just ignore them (which happened it the other thread when we were discussing "race")
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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''All we do here is realize Egypt as an African civilization that developed in Africa.'' ====
By people who moved into North Africa, from the Middle-East.
Domestication and agriculture spread into North Africa from Mesopotamia - ask any archeologist, this is a proven fact.
Africa never domesticated a single animal, and agriculture, technology etc only entered North Africa from the north.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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''The biological origins of Egyptians lie in sub-Saharan Africa'' ====
Another fairytale.
Its a proven fact the indigenous egyptians were caucasoid.
Ever been to the British Museum? Go and look at the pre-dynastic mummies. All have straight red or auburn hair. Blacks don't have this feature, even the other afrocentrics on this forum have said straight red hair is an 'albino european trait'...
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:''All we do here is realize Egypt as an African civilization that developed in Africa.'' ====
By people who moved into North Africa, from the Middle-East.
Domestication and agriculture spread into North Africa from Mesopotamia - ask any archeologist, this is a proven fact.
^Those same archaeologists say there is no evidence of demic diffusion (mass migration of people). Agricultural terms in ancient Egypt were not Semitic or Sumerian and many of the plants were simply incorporated into an already existing subsistence strategy that SLOWLY changed over time into full-blown agriculture. If middle easterners colonized Egypt, it would have come in a package and the agricultural terms would have been Semitic or Sumerian, but they are African.
quote:Africa never domesticated a single animal
Ever heard of the donkey (not to mention specific breeds of cattle)?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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''The biological origins of Egyptians lie in sub-Saharan Africa''
- So why has sub-sahara africa NEVER had a civilization?
If the egyptians were black sub-saharan africans, why are there no traces of a mighty ancient civilization in sub-sahara africa?
Sub-Saharan africans didn't even have the water wheel when european colonised Africa. And how many trillions do europeans still wasted donating to those starving sub-saharan africans (i.e through charities like oxfam...)?
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: [QB] ''The biological origins of Egyptians lie in sub-Saharan Africa''
- So why has sub-sahara africa NEVER had a civilization?
You overemphasize Egypt as "mighty" and this is circular reasoning by assuming the question has anything to do with the claim. Civilizations below the Sahara were very capable, but this is besides the point of the claim. This question is NOT evidence against the claim.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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OK, I guess I will entertain your claims since I am bored.
quote:''All we do here is realize Egypt as an African civilization that developed in Africa.'' ====
By people who moved into North Africa, from the Middle-East.
Provide evidence for this claim.
quote:Domestication and agriculture spread into North Africa from Mesopotamia - ask any archeologist, this is a proven fact.
That may be so, but do you know what the general consensus is on that issue? Here, let me show you:
"Furthermore, the archaeology of northern Africa does not support demic diffusion of farming from the Near East. The evidence presented by Wetterstrom indicates that early African farmers in the Fayum initially INCORPORATED Near Eastern domesticates INTO an INDIGENOUS foraging strategy, and only OVER TIME developed a dependence on horticulture. This is inconsistent with in-migrating farming settlers, who would have brought a more ABRUPT change in subsistence strategy. "The same archaeological pattern occurs west of Egypt, where domestic animals and, later, grains were GRADUALLY adopted after 8000 yr B.P. into the established pre-agricultural Capsian culture, present across the northern Sahara since 10,000 yr B.P. From this continuity, it has been argued that the pre-food-production Capsian peoples spoke languages ancestral to the Berber and/or Chadic branches of Afroasiatic, placing the proto-Afroasiatic period distinctly before 10,000 yr B.P."
There was no mass migration of Near Eastern farmers into the Nile Valley.
quote:Africa never domesticated a single animal, and agriculture, technology etc only entered North Africa from the north.
Also untrue, genetic research reveals an African sub-family in taurine (Bos Taurus)
Y-specific microsatellites reveal an African subfamily in taurine (Bos taurus) cattle
1. L. Pérez-Pardal1,2, 2. L. J. Royo1, 3. A. Beja-Pereira2, 4. I. Curik3, 5. A. Traoré4, 6. I. Fernández1, 7. J. Sölkner5, 8. J. Alonso6, 9. I. Álvarez1, 10. R. Bozzi7, 11. S. Chen2, 12. F. A. Ponce de León8, 13. F. Goyache1
Article first published online: 16 NOV 2009
DOI: 10.1111/j.1365-2052.2009.01988.x
"Here we use a set of five cattle Y-specific microsatellites, including six loci, to assess diversity on the male path in taurine cattle. The microsatellite set used was fitted after careful selection of markers (see Table S1). Our microsatellites basically coincide with those previously used by Ginja et al. (2009) in Portuguese cattle, and three of them (INRA189, BM861 and BYM-1) were also used by Li et al. (2007) and Kantanen et al. (2009) in Ethiopian and Eurasian cattle respectively. The markers INRA124, INRA 126 and UMN0504 used in the aforementioned studies have been shown not to be male-specific here and in the previous analyses (Pérez-Pardal et al. 2009).
Haplotypic diversity found in our sample is similar to that of 0.064 (26 haplotypes among 405 bulls tested) reported by Kantanen et al. (2009), higher than that of 0.042 (13/307) reported by Ginja et al. (2009) in Portuguese cattle, but lower than that of 0.099 (16/161) found by Li et al. (2007) in Ethiopian cattle (including Holstein–Friesian). The results reported by Li et al. (2007) may be biased upwards as a result of the presence of taurine and zebu haplotypes in the Ethiopian samples, but also by the use of the putative fast-evolving marker INRA126 that has been shown to have erratic behaviour with a high rate (55%) of parental incompatibility (Pérez-Pardal et al. 2009); it may be located on the pseudoautosomal region of the Y-chromosome (Li et al. 2007).
At the subspecies level, our study highlights the following: (i) haplogroups Y1 and Y2 previously identified by Götherström et al. (2005) have phylogenetic meaning; (ii) there is genetic variation within haplogroups that can be assessed using microsatellites; (iii) African cattle Y2-chromosomes can be differentiated from those of European cattle; (iv) there is clear geographical structuring in taurine cattle populations; and (v) this structuring is compatible with a poor overall genetic differentiation.
The fact that no haplotypes were shared between haplogroups clearly confirms the phylogenetic importance of the haplogroups identified by Götherström et al. (2005). They characterize two large cattle Y-chromosome lineages that are predominant in the European Atlantic coastline (Y1) and in the mainland European continent and Africa (Y2). However, in the case of cattle, biallelic markers, such as the Götherström et al. (2005) SNPs and indels, do not offer enough resolution to characterize Y-chromosome diversity. Y-specific microsatellites allowed at least two different Y2-lineages to be differentiated (Fig. 1). The African-specific Y2-lineage clusters nearer to Y1 haplotypes than to European Y2-haplotypes. This suggests the existence of different wild sire populations with poor genetic differentiation. However, the set of markers used was not powerful enough to correctly discriminate among haplogroups. The identification of new Y-specific markers in cattle with higher resolution should confirm the genetic relationships between the different haplogroups.
Ginja et al. (2009) suggested a possible African introgression into Portuguese cattle based on one allele on marker INRA189 previously found in N’Dama cattle (Edwards et al. 2000). Differences between West African genetic stock and European Y2-sires are more marked than previously shown. Here we demonstrate that these breeds have their own haplotypes that are not shared with any other Y2-cattle breeds. Haplotype diversity, adjusted for sample size, is quite similar for Y1 and Y2 haplogroups (0.055 ± 0.0006 and 0.067 ± 0.0002, respectively). In any case, the higher haplotype diversity observed in Y2 cattle is mainly resulting from the variation observed in African Y2-haplotypes. The identified West African Y2-subfamily has an extremely high haplotype diversity 0.533 ± 0.1214, whereas the other Y2 samples had haplotype diversity of 0.049 ± 0.0007. Although our analyses do not allow us to reject the influence of other factors such as differences in population sizes or introgression from other populations, this fact suggests that West African cattle gather genetic variation of local origin. Summarizing the available genetic and archaeological evidence, Bradley & Magee (2006) suggested that African taurine cattle are not a simple subset of that domesticated in the Near East. This would be supported by the qualitatively different nature of their mtDNA composition, showing a large proportion of unique haplotypes (Troy et al. 2001), and that there is a significant component of microsatellite variation within African cattle that seems to be indigenous in origin (Hanotte et al. 2002). Though sample size from West African cattle is limited (only 17 samples), the evidence summarized by Bradley & Magee (2006) can also be applied to the Y-chromosome scenario identified here. In this respect, our findings would be consistent with a putative domestication event in Africa, including the use of local Y2-like wild sires. Moreover, the presence of specific African Y-chromosome haplotypes was found neither in Iberian cattle nor in the cattle of the other Southern European Peninsulas. Beja-Pereira et al. (2006) found African T1 mtDNA haplotypes in Southern and Northern Iberian cattle breeds. The lack of presence of African Y-specific haplotypes in Iberian cattle does not support recent introgression events. Genetic relationships between Iberian and African cattle populations would predate the traditional route associated with the Moorish invasions and occupation (Beja-Pereira et al. 2006)."
quote:Another fairytale.
Its a proven fact the indigenous egyptians were caucasoid.
Ever been to the British Museum? Go and look at the pre-dynastic mummies. All have straight red or auburn hair. Blacks don't have this feature, even the other afrocentrics on this forum have said straight red hair is an 'albino european trait'...
It is not a myth that the Egyptians were descended from sub-Saharan Africans. This is supported by current genetic research:
"Our findings are in accordance with other studies on Y-chromosome markers that have shown that the predominant Y-chromosome lineage in Berber communities is the subhaplogroup E1b1b1b (E-M81), which emerged in Africa, is specific to North African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001)"
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations Frigi et al., (2010)
Underhill et al., 2001:
"The expansion of Neolithic farmers from the Middle East into Europe is also represented in the NRY data, although suggesting a relatively localized area of impact. As mentioned before in relation to African NRY history, a Mesolithic population carrying Group III lineages with the M35}M215 mutation expanded northwards from sub-Saharan to north Africa and the Levant (Fig. 3g)."
Also supported by other data, namely Brace (2005) and Ricaut et al., (2008) mentions it as well.
"The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo, Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample, both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians, and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from sub-Saharan Africa" (Brace, 2005)
"Populations. The results obtained in this study (see Table 3 and Figures 2-5) reveal that the Byzantine population from Sagalassos clusters with the West Eurasian and northeast African populations. In each of the analyses performed the Byzantine population is included in the regional (e.g., eastern Mediterranean) biological variability, with the closest affinity to populations from Greece and Cyprus/Turkey rather than to Italy and ancient Egypt. This is consistent with most anthropological studies, which show a positive correlation between geographic separation and biological (phenotypic or genetic) distance among populations (Crawford 1998; Konigsberg 1990; Manica et al. 2007; Relethford 2004). Nevertheless, a few populations in our study (Scandinavians, Germans, Gabonese, and Somalians) did not fit this pattern; they are geographically distant from Sagalassos but biologically close (these differences are discussed in a later section)..... Keeping in mind these three elements,if we consider the affinity of the Sagalassos population with the sub-Saharan populations from Gabon and Somalia, a recent direct contact between these populations and regions probably can be excluded because they are separated by significant geographic distances. However, indirect contacts through geographically intermediary populations carrying "sub-Saharan" biological features in the late Pleistocene- Holocene period are discussion points.....From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Sanaran genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic. Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt - such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semai 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980) - show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic-early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations...... This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demie diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."--Ricaut et al., (2008)
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Ever heard of the donkey (not to mention specific breeds of cattle)?
Yeah. I found the following interesting:
African origin of Chinese domestic donkeys]. Authors: Lu CJ; Xie WM; Su R; Ge QL; Chen H; Shen SY; Lei CZ Author Address: College of Animal Science and Technology, Northwest A and F University, Yangling 712100, China. Source: Yi Chuan = Hereditas / Zhongguo Yi Chuan Xue Hui Bian Ji [Yi Chuan] 2008 Mar; Vol. 30 (3), pp. 324-8. Publication Type: English Abstract; Journal Article; Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't Language: Chinese Journal Information: Country of Publication: China NLM ID: 9436478 Publication Model: Print Cited Medium: Print ISSN: 0253-9772 (Print) Linking ISSN: 02539772 NLM ISO Abbreviation: Yi Chuan Subsets: MEDLINE MeSH Terms: Equidae/*genetics Africa; Animals; China; DNA, Mitochondrial/genetics; Equidae/classification; Genetic Variation/genetics; Phylogeny Abstract: Analysis of the 367 mtDNA D-loop sequences (of which 241 sequences were collected from literature) of 399 bp in 13 Chinese domestic donkey breeds revealed 96 different haplotypes with 57 polymorphic sites. The haplotype diversity and the nucleotide diversity were 0.767-0.967 and 0.014-0.032, respectively, indicating abundant genetic diversity in Chinese domestic donkeys. The Neighbor-joining tree of Chinese domestic donkey sequences was constructed with 3 Nubian wild ass sequences, 3 Somali wild ass sequences and 6 Asian wild ass sequences. Our results suggest that the maternal ancestor of Chinese domestic donkeys is highly likely to be Somali and Nubian of African wild ass instead of Asian wild ass.
DO YOU SEE THE EGYPTIANS NOW!!!Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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In 1902, E. A. Wallis Budge, the renowned Egyptologist, described the pre-dynastic Egyptians thus:
"The predynastic Egyptians, that is to say, that stratum of them which was indigenous to North Africa, belonged to a white or light-skinned race with fair hair, who in many particulars resembled the Libyans, who in later historical times lived very near the western bank of the Nile." [E. A. W. Budge, Egypt in the Neolithic and Archaic Periods (London: Kegan Paul, Trench & Trübner, 1902), p. 49.]
Later, in the same book, Budge referred to a pre-dynastic statuette that: "has eyes inlaid with lapis-lazuli, by which we are probably intended to understand that the woman here represented had blue eyes." [Ibid., p. 51.]
In 1925, the Oxford don L. H. Dudley Buxton, wrote the following concerning ancient Egyptian crania:
"Among the ancient crania from the Thebaid in the collection in the Department of Human Anatomy in Oxford, there are specimens which must unhesitatingly be considered to be those of Nordic type. If this is so, it would seem that they probably entered Egypt with the other alien elements which began to filter in from Asia in early dynastic times. How far the Nordics ever formed any appreciable element in the population is doubtful, but these specimens prove their existence." [L. H. D. Buxton, The Peoples of Asia (London: Kegan Paul, Trench & Trübner, 1925), p. 50.]
Harry R. Hall, the Keeper of Egyptian Antiquities at the British Museum in the 1920s, had this to say about the invaders who formed the early dynastic Egyptian type:
"The oldest representations of ruling Egyptians, who may be presumed to belong to this race, shew remarkably a definitely central or even north European type, and it is very probable that this invading people belonged to an early folk-wandering from the 'Nordic' regions that made its way south through Syria, after possibly a period of settlement there." [H. R. Hall, A General Introductory Guide to the Egyptian Collections in the British Museum (London: Harrison & Sons, 1930), p. 24.]
The American physical anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel, studied a series of Egyptian crania dating from the predynastic period, down to the time of the Ptolemies. He concluded that during the invasion of Egypt by the Hyksos (15th Dynasty), Lower Egypt was settled by large numbers of individuals who were "Nordic-Iranian" in type. [J. L. Angel, "Biological Relations of Egyptian and Eastern Mediterranean Populations during Pre-dynastic and Dynastic Times." Journal of Human Evolution I (1972) pp. 307-313.]
The Scottish physical anthropologist Robert Gayre has written, that in his considered opinion:
"Ancient Egypt, for instance, was essentially a penetration of Caucasoid racial elements into Africa . . . This civilisation grew out of the settlement of Mediterraneans, Armenoids, even Nordics, and Atlantics in North Africa . . ." [R. Gayre of Gayre, Miscellaneous Racial Studies, 1943-1972 (Edinburgh: Armorial, 1972), p. 85.]
When English archaeologist Howard Carter excavated the tomb of Tutankhamen in 1922, he discovered in the Treasury a small wooden sarcophagus. Within it lay a memento of Tutankhamen's beloved grandmother, Queen Tiye: "a curl of her auburn hair." [C. Desroches-Noblecourt, Tutankhamen: Life and Death of a Pharaoh (Harmondsworth: Penguin Books, 1972), p. 65.]
Queen Tiye (18th Dynasty), was the daughter of Thuya, a Priestess of the God Amun. Thuya's mummy, which was found in 1905, has long, red-blonde hair. Examinations of Tiye's mummy proved that she bore a striking resemblance to her mother. [B. Adams, Egyptian Mummies (Aylesbury: Shire Publications, 1988), p. 39.]
The French Egyptologist Christiane Desroches-Noblecourt, has this to say about the famous Egyptian beauty, Queen Nefertiti: ". . . her beauty was of the noble Theban type seen in the necropolis paintings . . ." She goes on to state that ". . . the coloured bust now in Berlin shows the rosy tint of her complexion, which suggests that she was careful to avoid sunlight or, alternatively, that she was of northern stock." [Desroches-Noblecourt, op. cit., p. 90.]
A painting of the mother of Pharaoh Amenhotep IV (18th Dynasty), reveals that she had blonde hair, blue eyes and a rosy complexion. [W. Sieglin, Die blonden Haare der indogermanischen Völker des Altertums (Munich: J. F. Lehmanns Verlag, 1935), p. 132.]
Princess Ranofri, a daughter of Pharaoh Tuthmosis III (18th Dynasty), is depicted as a blonde in a wall painting that was recorded in the 19th century, by the Italian Egyptologist Ippolito Rosellini. [Ibid., p. 132.]
In 1929 archaeologists discovered the mummy of fifty year-old Queen Meryet-Amun (another daughter of Tuthmosis III); the mummy has wavy, light-brown hair. [R. B. Partridge, Faces of Pharaohs (London: Rubicon Press, 1994), p. 91.]
American Egyptologist Donald P. Ryan excavated tomb KV 60, in the Valley of the Kings, during the course of 1989. Inside, he found the mummy of a royal female, which he believes to be the long-lost remains of the great Queen Hatshepsut (18th Dynasty). Ryan describes the mummy as follows:
"The mummy was mostly unwrapped and on its back. Strands of reddish-blond hair lay on the floor beneath the bald head." [Ibid., p. 87.]
Manetho, a Graeco-Egyptian priest who flourished in the 3rd century BC, wrote in his Egyptian History, that the last ruler of the 6th Dynasty was a woman by the name of Queen Nitocris. He has this to say about her:
"There was a queen Nitocris, braver than all the men of her time, the most beautiful of all the women, blonde-haired with rosy cheeks. By her, it is said, the third pyramid was reared, with the aspect of a mountain." [W. G. Waddell, Manetho (London: William Heinemann, 1980), p. 57.]
According to the Graeco-Roman authors Pliny the Elder, Strabo and Diodorus Siculus, the Third Pyramid was built by a woman named Rhodopis. When translated from the original Greek, her name means "rosy-cheeked". [G. A. Wainwright, The Sky-Religion in Egypt (Cambridge: University Press, 1938), p. 42.]
We may also note that a tomb painting recorded by the German Egyptologist C. R. Lepsius in the 1840s, depicts a blonde woman by the name of Hetepheres (circa 5th Dynasty). The German scholar Alexander Scharff, observed that she was described as being a Priestess of the Goddess Neith, a deity who was sacred to the blond-haired Libyans of the Delta region. He goes on to state that her name is precisely the same as that of Queen Hetepheres II, who is also shown as fair-haired, in a painting on the wall of Queen Meresankh III's tomb. He deduced from all of this, that the two women may well have been related, and he suggested that Egypt during the Age of the Pyramids, was dominated by an elite of blonde women. [A. Scharff, "Ein Beitrag zur Chronologie der 4. ägyptischen Dynastie." Orientalistische Literaturzeitung XXXI (1928) pp. 73-81.]
The twentieth prayer of the 141st chapter of the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead, is dedicated "to the Goddess greatly beloved, with red hair." [E. A. W. Budge, The Book of the Dead (London: Kegan Paul, Trench & Trübner, 1901), p. 430.] In the tomb of Pharaoh Merenptah (19th Dynasty), there are depictions of red-haired goddesses. [N. Reeves & R. H. Wilkinson, The Complete Valley of the Kings (London: Thames & Hudson, 1997), p. 149.]
In the Book of the Dead, the eyes of the god Horus are described as "shining," or "brilliant," whilst another passage refers more explicitly to "Horus of the blue eyes". [Budge, op. cit., pp. 421 & 602.] The rubric to the 140th chapter of said book, states that the amulet known as the "Eye of Horus," (used to ward-off the "Evil Eye"), must always be made from lapis-lazuli, a mineral which is blue in colour. [Ibid., p. 427.] It should be noted that the Goddess Wadjet, who symbolised the Divine Eye of Horus, was represented by a snake (a hooded cobra to be precise), and her name, when translated from the original Egyptian, means "blue-green". [A. F. Alford, The Phoenix Solution (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1998), pp. 266-268.] Interestingly, the ancient Scandanavians claimed that anyone who was blue-eyed (and therefore possessed the power of the Evil Eye), had "a snake in the eye," and blue eyes were frequently compared to the eyes of a serpent. [F. B. Gummere, Germanic Origins (London: David Nutt, 1892), pp. 58, 62.]
In the ancient Pyramid Texts, the Gods are said to have blue and green eyes. [Alford, op. cit., p. 232.] The Graeco-Roman author Diodorus Siculus (I, 12), says that the Egyptians thought the goddess Neith had blue eyes. [C. H. Oldfather, Diodorus of Sicily (London: William Heinemann, 1968), p. 45.]
A text from the mammisi of Isis at Denderah, declares that the goddess was given birth to in the form of a "ruddy woman". [J. G. Griffiths, De Iside et Osiride (Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1970), p. 451.] Finally, the Greek author Plutarch, in the 22nd chapter of his De Iside et Osiride, states that the Egyptians thought Horus to be fair-skinned, and the god Seth to be of a ruddy complexion. [Ibid., p. 151.]
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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Harry R. Hall, the Keeper of Egyptian Antiquities at the British Museum in the 1920s, had this to say about the invaders who formed the early dynastic Egyptian type:
"The oldest representations of ruling Egyptians, who may be presumed to belong to this race, shew remarkably a definitely central or even north European type, and it is very probable that this invading people belonged to an early folk-wandering from the 'Nordic' regions that made its way south through Syria, after possibly a period of settlement there." [H. R. Hall, A General Introductory Guide to the Egyptian Collections in the British Museum (London: Harrison & Sons, 1930), p. 24.]
Your sources are ridiculously outdated. Laughable, even. I challenge you to find just one modern day Egyptologist who champions this Aryan invasion theory. I'll wait ...
In the mean time, what about ancient Libya? Your source says "The Ancient Libyans were not black". Uh, er, what about the Garamantes?
Posts: 318 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Cassiterides, you responded to my post with old sources written over 30 years ago. How does that make sense, when my sources were done within the last four years (with one exception)?
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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Wow, didn't realize that. Just goes to show that he can't think for himself or do his own research. Unless that is his website Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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''Where are all the Blond and Blue Eyed Saint Maurice, St. Benedict the Moor, St. Moses the Moor??'' ====
The Moors appear as straight blonde and red haired and pale skinned in the 'Book of Games' of King Alfonso X of Castile.
No Afroentric ever can explain this, or all the other thousands of art depictions of the Moors as light skinned with fair hair.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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And thousands more were dark-skinned and brown eyed do I really have to start spamming pics of dark-skinned Moors?
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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I'm still waiting for a proper response from you. All you could do was spam a bunch of old articles that had no bearing on the articles I posted. Not only that, but you failed to address the genetic evidence for an independent African cattle domestication, and the refutation of the myth that there was demic diffusion from the Near East in the Nile Valley. I'm waiting...
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''Where are all the Blond and Blue Eyed Saint Maurice, St. Benedict the Moor, St. Moses the Moor??'' ====
The Moors appear as straight blonde and red haired and pale skinned in the 'Book of Games' of King Alfonso X of Castile.
No Afroentric ever can explain this, or all the other thousands of art depictions of the Moors as light skinned with fair hair.
As Brada said, many more were shown with dark skin etc., The Moors were a very diverse group of people...
Really now? Lets have a look at the book of games:
Do you even know that which you speak of?
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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The White Moors in the Book of Games were nothing but a whole host of people from Converted Native European Muslims to Saqalliba, Turks, Arabs, Syrians etc that were living in Al-Andalus.
Why don't you crack open a history book before you speak on a subject. The Original Moors were Black Africans, case closed. Show me a Blond Haired Blue Eyed Saint with the Moniker "Moor" that predates Al-Andalus.
St. Benedict the Moor
St. Maurice
St. Moses the Moor
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ''Where are all the Blond and Blue Eyed Saint Maurice, St. Benedict the Moor, St. Moses the Moor??'' ====
The Moors appear as straight blonde and red haired and pale skinned in the 'Book of Games' of King Alfonso X of Castile.
No Afroentric ever can explain this, or all the other thousands of art depictions of the Moors as light skinned with fair hair.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: .... The Original Moors were Black Africans, case closed. Show me a Blond Haired Blue Eyed Saint with the Moniker "Moor" that predates Al-Andalus.
St. Benedict the Moor
St. Maurice
St. Moses the Moor
quote:
[/qb]
Interesting picture Jari. However there were original Black Europeans called Muurs who were indigenous European people.
Take for example one of the most important Saints of the WElSH People of England, Saint Deiniol:
His family ruled Northern England .....
A Latin life of Deiniol has been preserved in Peniarth MS226 transcribed by Sir Thomas Williams of Trefriw in 1602. He was the son of Dunod Fawr, son of Pabo Post Prydain. The family were originally rulers of an area in what is now the North of England, but having lost these were given lands by the king of Powys, Cyngen ap Cadell.
posted
The word "Moor" derives from the small Numidian Kingdom of Maure of the 3rd century BCE in what is now northern central and western part of Algeria and a part of northern Morocco. Saint Maurice was born 500+ years later in 3rd century AD. "Maurice" means "like a Moor" (Van Sertima) He was African but there is no evidence he was a Moor.
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