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Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature
American Journal of Physical Anthropology Feb. 2008
Michelle H. Raxter et al.
email: Michelle H. Raxter (mraxter@mail.usf.edu)
Trotter and Gleser's (Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 10 [(1952)] 469-514; Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 16 [(1958)] 79-123) long bone formulae for US Blacks or derivations thereof (Robins and Shute: Hum Evol 1 [(1986)] 313-324) have been previously used to estimate the stature of ancient Egyptians. However, limb length to stature proportions differ between human populations; consequently, the most accurate mathematical stature estimates will be obtained when the population being examined is as similar as possible in proportions to the population used to create the equations. The purpose of this study was to create new stature regression formulae based on direct reconstructions of stature in ancient Egyptians and assess their accuracy in comparison to other stature estimation methods. We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites. Living stature estimates were derived using a revised Fully anatomical method (Raxter et al.: Am J Phys Anthropol 130 [(2006)] 374-384). Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical. The newly generated Egyptian-based stature regression formulae have standard errors of estimate of 1.9-4.2 cm. All mean directional differences are less than 0.4% compared to anatomically estimated stature, while results using previous formulae are more variable, with mean directional biases varying between 0.2% and 1.1%, tibial and radial estimates being the most biased. There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formulae may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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^ Why can't they use rural Fellahin, especially those of Upper Egypt?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical.
Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid” body plan described by Robins(1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are ***longer*** relative to the proximal segments than in **many “African” populations*** (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations.
Brachial and crural indices of European Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans
Trenton W. Holliday
Among recent humans brachial and crural indices are positively correlated with mean annual temperature, such that high indices are found in tropical groups.
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Perhaps not nearly as common a sight as seen in say Southern Sudanese or Somalis, but I've seen not a few Senegalese types like their former president, Abdou Diouf, whom I doubt is a basket ball player lol...
^Now, of course the height issue is obvious there, which has little to do with said "tropical body plan' per se, but it is the body "proportionality" that is emphasis here.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
Why "west" Africans? Why not "north Africans" or "southern Africans"? Does Africa consist of only 3 or 4 "west" African countries and 2 "east" African countries?
Is there a reason other than you following your white sodomizers Eurocentric theology?
Its the old Eurocentric way of trying to lay claim to Ancient Egypt: these people are closest to what we think the Ancient Egyptians looked like and we think those people look the least like the Ancient Egyptians and let's see if we can't get pseudoscholars like Knowledgeiskey718 to go along.
People this is the danger of relying on Eurocentrics for your information. You will wind up with a mind like Knowledgeiskey718.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Knowledgeiskey718 wrote:
quote: Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
Why "west" Africans? Why not "north Africans" or "southern Africans"? Does Africa consist of only 3 or 4 "west" African countries and 2 "east" African countries?
Is there a reason other than you following your white sodomizers Eurocentric theology?
Its the old Eurocentric way of trying to lay claim to Ancient Egypt: these people are closest to what we think the Ancient Egyptians looked like and we think those people look the least like the Ancient Egyptians and let's see if we can't get pseudoscholars like Knowledgeiskey718 to go along.
People this is the danger of relying on Eurocentrics for your information. You will wind up with a mind like Knowledgeiskey718.
Lmao, Eurocentrisms way of trying to lay claim to Ancient Egypt? Please elaborate? Do tell how cold adapted Europeans can lay claim to an extremely tropically adapted civilization?
Next, tell me does tropical body plans say anything about cranio-morphology?
Of course you don't have any idea of the difference between tropical body plans and extreme tropical body plans. Let alone that it has no indication on cranio-facial characteristics, Ie, what the individual looked liked. So I'll explain it to you. Tropical adaptation is able to inform us that the individual was adapted to the tropics, and in this case Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropically adapted, whereas most other Africans who are not Elongated(I used West Africans as an example), they are tropically adapted, while Europeans are cold adapted. Europeans aren't even near tropical adaptation like West Africans let alone how far away they are to Ancient Egyptians and their extreme tropical body plans. So basically Europeans can't lay claim to a tropically adapted society. You imbecile.
Elongated Africans have relatively longer limbs than most Africans, once identified as "super Negroid" a.k.a extremely tropical adapted, and this is what the Ancient Egyptians were.
Somalis are Elongated Africans as well, just as the Tutsi, Oromo, and Masai are. According measurements comparing them to other Elongated East Africans...
Tutsi of Rwanda:
*[color=green]Stature: 176 cm * Head length: 198 mm * Head breadth: 147 mm * Face height: 125 mm * Face breadth: 134 mm * Nose height: 56 mm * Nose breadth: 39 mm * Relative trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 92.8 * Nasal Index: 69.5[/color]
Masai:
[color=blue] * Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 140 mm * Face Height: 121 mm * Face Breadth: 137 mm * Nose Height: 54 mm * Nose Breadth: 39 mm * Relative Trunk length: 47.7 * Cephalic Index: 72.8 * Facial Index: 89.0 * Nasal Index: 72.0[/color]
Galla(Oromo):
[color=red] * Stature: 171 cm * Head length: 190 mm * Head Breadth: 147 mm * Face Height: 122 mm * Face Breadth: 133 mm * Nose Height: 53 mm * Nose Breadth: 37 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.3 * Cephalic Index: 77.6 * Facial Index: 91.5 * Nasal Index: 69.0[/color]
Sab Somali:
[color=gray] * Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 145 mm * Face Height: 119 mm * Face Breadth: 134 mm * Nose Height: 49 mm * Nose Breadth: 36 mm * Relative Trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.7 * Facial Index: 88.5 * Nasal Index: 72.8[/color]
Warsingali Somali:
[color=navy] * Stature: 168 cm * Head length: 192 mm * Head Breadth: 143 mm * Face Height: 123 mm * Face Breadth: 131 mm * Nose Height: 52 mm * Nose Breadth: 34 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 94.1 * Nasal Index: 66.0[/color]
Source:
Jean Hiernaux
The People of Africa pg 142
quote:Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
......and especially longer than cold adapted Eurasians and Eurasian influenced North Africans.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Listen to this dumbass. He's actually saying that the eurocentrics haven't tried to lay claim to African history, culture, etc.
Folks, Knowledgeiskey718 is what happens when you rely on the white man to write papers and do your science for you.
This boy is actually denying eurocentric theft tactics because he relies on them to do his scientific work for him.
Pathetic.
There have been scientists who have written books, papers, studies, yet alone all of the idiocy that pseudo-intellectuals post on this forum about: caucasoid east African and negroid west African.
That is one, if not the main eurcentric lies that has been discussed on this forum for years. And you dare act like eurocentrics haven't used such tactics.
Like I said you're nothing but a fake armchair scholar and your reply proves it.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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^^Never said Euro-centrics haven't laid claim to Egypt, you're an idiot stop making **** up. You said what I was posting was a Euro-centric way of claiming Egypt.
Well,
Do tell how I was implying that cold adapted Eurasians could lay claims to an extremely tropically adapted civilization let alone a tropically adapted?
Explain whats pseudo about my response please?????
I'll wait......
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Knowledgeiskey718 wrote:
quote: Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
Why "west" Africans? Why not "north Africans" or "southern Africans"? Does Africa consist of only 3 or 4 "west" African countries and 2 "east" African countries?
Is there a reason other than you following your white sodomizers Eurocentric theology?
Its the old Eurocentric way of trying to lay claim to Ancient Egypt: these people are closest to what we think the Ancient Egyptians looked like and we think those people look the least like the Ancient Egyptians and let's see if we can't get pseudoscholars like Knowledgeiskey718 to go along.
People this is the danger of relying on Eurocentrics for your information. You will wind up with a mind like Knowledgeiskey718.
Lmao, Eurocentrisms way of trying to lay claim to Ancient Egypt? Please elaborate? Do tell how cold adapted Europeans can lay claim to an extremely tropically adapted civilization?
Next, tell me does tropical body plans say anything about cranio-morphology?
Of course you don't have any idea of the difference between tropical body plans and extreme tropical body plans. Let alone that it has no indication on cranio-facial characteristics, Ie, what the individual looked liked. So I'll explain it to you. Tropical adaptation is able to inform us that the individual was adapted to the tropics, and in this case Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropically adapted, whereas most other Africans who are not Elongated(I used West Africans as an example), they are tropically adapted, while Europeans are cold adapted. Europeans aren't even near tropical adaptation like West Africans let alone how far away they are to Ancient Egyptians and their extreme tropical body plans. So basically Europeans can't lay claim to a tropically adapted society. You imbecile.
Elongated Africans have relatively longer limbs than most Africans, once identified as "super Negroid" a.k.a extremely tropical adapted, and this is what the Ancient Egyptians were.
Somalis are Elongated Africans as well, just as the Tutsi, Oromo, and Masai are. According measurements comparing them to other Elongated East Africans...
Tutsi of Rwanda:
*[color=green]Stature: 176 cm * Head length: 198 mm * Head breadth: 147 mm * Face height: 125 mm * Face breadth: 134 mm * Nose height: 56 mm * Nose breadth: 39 mm * Relative trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 92.8 * Nasal Index: 69.5[/color]
Masai:
[color=blue] * Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 140 mm * Face Height: 121 mm * Face Breadth: 137 mm * Nose Height: 54 mm * Nose Breadth: 39 mm * Relative Trunk length: 47.7 * Cephalic Index: 72.8 * Facial Index: 89.0 * Nasal Index: 72.0[/color]
Galla(Oromo):
[color=red] * Stature: 171 cm * Head length: 190 mm * Head Breadth: 147 mm * Face Height: 122 mm * Face Breadth: 133 mm * Nose Height: 53 mm * Nose Breadth: 37 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.3 * Cephalic Index: 77.6 * Facial Index: 91.5 * Nasal Index: 69.0[/color]
Sab Somali:
[color=gray] * Stature: 173 cm * Head length: 194 mm * Head Breadth: 145 mm * Face Height: 119 mm * Face Breadth: 134 mm * Nose Height: 49 mm * Nose Breadth: 36 mm * Relative Trunk length: 49.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.7 * Facial Index: 88.5 * Nasal Index: 72.8[/color]
Warsingali Somali:
[color=navy] * Stature: 168 cm * Head length: 192 mm * Head Breadth: 143 mm * Face Height: 123 mm * Face Breadth: 131 mm * Nose Height: 52 mm * Nose Breadth: 34 mm * Relative Trunk length: 50.7 * Cephalic Index: 74.5 * Facial Index: 94.1 * Nasal Index: 66.0[/color]
Source:
Jean Hiernaux
The People of Africa pg 142
quote:Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
......and especially longer than cold adapted Eurasians and Eurasian influenced North Africans.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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You dichomized Africa into only two groups of people "east" and "west" Africans. As if they are the only Africans. Why? What about "north" and "southern" Africans?
See for the eurocentrics "north" and "southern" Africans get in the way of their African history grab, which is: we think this country in east Africa looks the most like the Ancient Egyptians and these "select" countries we deem as "west" Africa look the least like the Ancient Egyptians. Therefore these "east" Africans are caucasoid which is our "euro group" and these "west" Africans are the negroids who "we whites" need to say, don't have anything to do with the Ancient Egyptians.
You're now whining like a caught child because I called you out on your stupidity. I didn't force you into your eurocentric statement.
Maybe you should do your own research, instead of relying on them. That way you would not feel so indebted to them that you would actully defend them.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: You dichomized Africa into only two groups of people "east" and "west" Africans. As if they are the only Africans. Why? What about "north" and "southern" Africans?
See for the eurocentrics "north" and "southern" Africans get in the way of their African history grab, which is: we think this country in east Africa looks the most like the Ancient Egyptians and these "select" countries we deem as "west" Africa look the least like the Ancient Egyptians. Therefore these "east" Africans are caucasoid which is our "euro group" and these "west" Africans are the negroids who "we whites" need to say, don't have anything to do with the Ancient Egyptians.
You're now whining like a caught child because I called you out on your stupidity. I didn't force you into your eurocentric statement.
Maybe you should do your own research, instead of relying on them. That way you would not feel so indebted to them that you would actully defend them.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:See for the eurocentrics "north" and "southern" Africans get in the way of their African history grab, which is: we think this country in east Africa looks the most like the Ancient Egyptians and these "select" countries we deem as "west" Africa look the least like the Ancient Egyptians. Therefore these "east" Africans are caucasoid which is our "euro group" and these "west" Africans are the negroids who "we whites" need to say, don't have anything to do with the Ancient Egyptians.
You're a dumbass idiot. A complete joke, and you make absolutely no sense at all. Wow, I explained this three times, and yet you still possess the idiocy, still don't understand tropical adaptations that they having nothing to do with how the individual looks? Absolutely nada, nothing, zilch!!!
What don't you understand about the fact that tropical adaptations says absolutely nothing about cranio-facial features(the way the individual looks)? Meaning, when one says an individual is tropically adapted, this does not give any indication of how this individual actually looks, rather it's simply informing us that the individual is adapted to the tropics. Now, are Eurasians adapted to the tropics argtroll?
What don't you understand about the Ancient Egyptians being extremely tropical adapted I.e. longer limbs than most Africans, and especially longer than cold adapted Eurasians and Eurasian influenced North Africans? And how does extremely tropical adaptations(super "Negroid")imply that the individual is a "caucasoid?
I am still waiting for you to explain how me saying Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropically adapted has anything to do with how they looked?
I am still waiting for to tell me how saying Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted(once termed Super "Negroid") and West Africans being tropical adapted is in anyway giving Euro-centrics a way to lay claim to Ancient Egypt? Or are you saying Eurasians are extremely tropically adapted (super "Negroid")?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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I don't give a damn about your pathetic attempts at a strawman distraction.
Given that my replies to you don't even mention "tropical body plans". They do concern your eurocentric racial dichomization of Africans into either "east" or "west" which you continously whine about being called out on. And rather than address it you attempt a pathetically weak attempt at a distraction. It won't work with me.
And don't think we all haven't noticed that you are hell bent on avoiding giving us the answer to this question:
What nations are in "west" Africa and what nations are in "east" Africa?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Given that my replies to you don't even mention "tropical body planes".
Well my post had everything to do with tropical body plans, so why you would make a comment towards me not about what I posted is completely redundant and baffles me. Your poor feeble brain forced you to make a comment thinking tropical adaptations had something to do with the way the individual actually looks, which is false. This happened because you didn't understand what was being discussed, therefore you made a comment about nonsense which had nothing to do with what was posted. Poor you, and your feeble mind.
Any answers??? If not, then you're dismissed. Chump!!!
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:See for the eurocentrics "north" and "southern" Africans get in the way of their African history grab, which is: we think this country in east Africa looks the most like the Ancient Egyptians and these "select" countries we deem as "west" Africa look the least like the Ancient Egyptians. Therefore these "east" Africans are caucasoid which is our "euro group" and these "west" Africans are the negroids who "we whites" need to say, don't have anything to do with the Ancient Egyptians.
You're a dumbass idiot. A complete joke, and you make absolutely no sense at all. Wow, I explained this three times, and yet you still possess the idiocy, still don't understand tropical adaptations that they having nothing to do with how the individual looks? Absolutely nada, nothing, zilch!!!
What don't you understand about the fact that tropical adaptations says absolutely nothing about cranio-facial features(the way the individual looks)? Meaning, when one says an individual is tropically adapted, this does not give any indication of how this individual actually looks, rather it's simply informing us that the individual is adapted to the tropics. Now, are Eurasians adapted to the tropics argtroll?
What don't you understand about the Ancient Egyptians being extremely tropical adapted I.e. longer limbs than most Africans, and especially longer than cold adapted Eurasians and Eurasian influenced North Africans? And how does extremely tropical adaptations(super "Negroid")imply that the individual is a "caucasoid?
I am still waiting for you to explain how me saying Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropically adapted has anything to do with how they looked?
I am still waiting for to tell me how saying Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted(once termed Super "Negroid") and West Africans being tropical adapted is in anyway giving Euro-centrics a way to lay claim to Ancient Egypt? Or are you saying Eurasians are extremely tropically adapted (super "Negroid")?
If no answers, then get off my nuts!!!!
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Knowledgeiskey718 wrote: ----------------------------------- Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans. -----------------------------------
The above is from someone who has learned from his european owners that Africans are either one or two countries in east africa and 3 or 4 countries in west africa.
Like his eurocentrists masters have taught him, he has learned to avoid north and southern africa at all costs since the easiest way of stealing African history is to use the east/west ruse.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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^^^Lmao Too funny. You're completely remedial, I just can't help but to laugh.
Didn't you already try and fail at distorting this one??? Is that the best you can do?? ha ha ha ha ha ha
quote:Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
......and especially longer than cold adapted Eurasians and Eurasian influenced North Africans.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Knowledgeiskey718 wrote: ----------------------------------- Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans. -----------------------------------
The above is your original quote. Now you're thrashing around even more with another obfusication. Trying to add "north" Africans now that you've been called out. And then going so far as to implying that Africans are not indigenous to "north" Africa. Just like Frosty has said in his racial propaganda.
Its also interesting that "southern" Africa is nonexistent to this boy. Again, he knows that "southern" Africa like "north" Africa is a big impediment to the euro theft of all things Africa. Therefore he doesn't dare include them as being a part of Africa.
Just like how your european masters have taught you, you have intentionally omitted "north" and "southern" Africans from Africa just so you could use the east/west ruse your owners like to employ so they can lay claim to African history, achievement, and culture.
You are a faux scholar and nothing more.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lmao, is that seriously the best you can do??? Complete off topic rantings?
Answer a simple question(if you can).Does tropical adaptation give any indication about cranio-facial morphology?
Please try a lil more, you're really boring, and you post things not even relevant and completely off topic. Whenever you get ready to admit that you made false assumptions on tropical adaptation and your imbecility forced you to make an ass out of yourself, since you had no idea that tropical adaptation gives no indication on how the individual looks. Therefore rendering your idiotic argument about me separating Africans according to phenotype completely obliterated. Just let me know.
Yes this was my original post, and it states that elongated Africans have longer limbs than(as an example) West Africans. So basically if you were smart you would understand that since Ancient Egyptians had longer limbs than most Africans which means they had extreme tropical body plans, this renders Eurasians(who are cold adapted/short limbs) not even close to tropically adapted West Africans, or basically all Africans who are tropically adapted for that matter, let alone how far away cold adapted Eurasians are from the extremely tropically adapted Ancient Egyptians.
quote:Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
......and especially longer than cold adapted Eurasians and Eurasian influenced North Africans.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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I've outlined some of Hiernaux's shortcomings and strengths before; still, he does provide good examples...
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical.
Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
The way I look at it the match wasn't as precise as it could have been because a percentage of us (possibly all of us at this point though) have non-African ancestry) as are some ~17% of our lineages.
I agree with your point that of our African ancestry most of it is from the Western region of the continant though I'm not sure how tropically adapted they were. Interestingly a study done noted that North American slaves were considerably taller than their brethren in South America and West Africa (height isn't tropical adaptation, but is another one of those things typically associated with East Africans).
Thank goodness for genetics though which confirms us to be mostly E3a paternally, though the historical point that some West Africans sold slaves is moot to this point on account of the fact that Africans are not static and people have migrated in the area in the past 4,000 years.
So yeah, less European blood and we'd be closer to ancient Egyptian stature. Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Interestingly a study done noted that North American slaves were considerably taller than their brethren in South America and West Africa (height isn't tropical adaptation, but is another one of those things typically associated with East Africans).
By which I take it that these slaves are well beyond the continuum of 165 to 180cm, right?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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LOL! The butler is trying so hard to be more than a lackey. Someone said that his posts are like someone talking to themselves on a dark street. And you know what? They were right.
But lets further prove that the butler is an intellectual lightweight.
Yet another longwinded strawman meant to deflect from your eurocentric inspired pathology.
Your european inspired racism against Africans renders one who analyzes such behaviour as one who has deep rooted inferiority complexes toward certain groups.
In your case it is Europeans.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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One cannot be dogmatic about height in Africa. There are parts of Africa where individuals are of medium height while there are areas where they are quite tall. The same for Europe.
Southern and Eastern Europeans tend to be quite short compared to Europe's more Northern people. One finds the same principle at work in East Asia.
But one cannot really apply the same principle to Africa since the tallest Africans tend to be from its hottest but drier areas. The South Sudanese can be quite tall. Recall the U.S. based basketball player Manute Bol. And there's another tall Sudanese--last name Dieng--also playing in the NBA.
But there are parts of West Africa where people can be very tall and robust as in Senegal and the savanah regions of all of West Africa. Nigerians from Kwara State northwards tend to be very tall--as in the case of ex-NBA player Olajuwon. And here and there in U.S. college basket ball there are a number of tall African players. UCLA had a couple of tall[meaning over 6 feet 6 inches] players just recently and the same for some of the other top drawer schools.
In the European football leagues some of the tallest players hail from Africa--as in the case of the English league players such as Papa Bouba Diop, Habib Beye, Salif Diaow, Didier Drogba,etc.
So Hiernaux is wrong on his suppositions here. He is also wrong when he claims that Moors and Fulani tend to be tall. I know lots of both groups and he is wrong on this. The Wolof and Serer of Senegal tend to be much taller than both Moor and Fulani. And Mandinkas from Mali and the Senegambia area are also quite tall, much more so than Moors. But again, it's an individual thing.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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If you look at other near eastern peoples you should get a good idea of how ancient egyptians were built. Like their ancient Syrian cousins they were probably a little on the short side compared to modern populations.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: If you look at other near eastern peoples you should get a good idea of how ancient egyptians were built. Like their ancient Syrian cousins they were probably a little on the short side compared to modern populations.
Not according to actual stature and limb proportion studies. Doesn't seem you know as much as you thought you did. You seem to be pretty much wrong about everything lol.....
Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid” body plan described by Robins(1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are ***longer*** relative to the proximal segments than in **many “African” populations*** (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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why do you continue to talk about Egyptians and Syrians being cousins without any proof and when Knowledge is giving you facts to read and understand? I don't believe your stupid or mentally ill so I don't know what your excuse is for being so foolish.
Read and Learn.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: That is what everyone believes King. Egyptians were north African caucasians.
Nobody thinks that, except misinformed people such as yourself. Please, do tell how that is what everyone thinks when the actual studies say otherwise?? Of course it's obviously wishful thinking on the part of individuals such as yourself....
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Actually, a good number of people still do believe that and the only reason is because they believe the lies that they have been told in history books and the media. But times are a changin....
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Further exposing the misinformation that American Patriot proposes.
The Story of Man
Carleton Coon
p 196-197
Borzoi Books, 1965
Few skeletons have been found in the Sahara, and these are hard to date because of soil erosion. In Arabia prehistoric archaeology has barely been started. Yet we can be reasonably confident, until other evidence upsets the theory, that these deserts were the home of the slender variety of Caucasoid man. In East Africa this type has survived among the slender, narrow-faced Watusi and other cattle people.
^^According to Coon and American Patriot, this man is a North African Caucasian as well. Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Actually, a good number of people still do believe that and the only reason is because they believe the lies that they have been told in history books and the media. But times are a changin....
Well, hence the reason I stated nobody thinks that except misinformed people such as American Patriot.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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1)Why do you feel that I'm the appropriate target audience for your post?
For instance, on the issue of height, wouldn't your post be better directed at say, Alive-What Box's post?
2)The issue here is body proportions, not height per se, and in that area, Hiernaux's tabulated data provides examples if nothing else, of why west Africans cannot be treated as a monolithic entity, as it generally crops up in conversations on this board.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical.
Well, we know Ancient Egyptians were extremely tropical adapted, like other East Africans. Which would make their(Egyptians) and East Africans limbs longer than that of West Africans........
quote: I agree with your point that of our African ancestry most of it is from the Western region of the continant
Where did you get the impression that I was speaking about ancestry? Suckered in by argyle huh?
quote:Posted by Alive: though I'm not sure how tropically adapted they were.
Note.....
Africans are tropically adapted. Tropical adaptations entail significantly higher brachial and crural indices, pretty much, longer limbs than that of a cold adapted individual (I.e. Eurasians, Eskimos).
Among recent humans brachial and crural indices are positively correlated with mean annual temperature, such that high indices are found in tropical groups.
--------
Elongated Africans tend to have longer limbs than most Africans. The elongated type is not limited to East Africa though, as we know, it's an adaptation to a hot dry climate or adaptation to a hot humid climate which creates the elongated and broad phenotypes respectively...
Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski*
No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid” body plan described by Robins(1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are ***longer*** relative to the proximal segments than in **many “African” populations*** (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Southern and Eastern Europeans tend to be quite short compared to Europe's more Northern people. One finds the same principle at work in East Asia.
Based on what scientific data?
quote:lamin:
So Hiernaux is wrong on his suppositions here. He is also wrong when he claims that Moors and Fulani tend to be tall. I know lots of both groups and he is wrong on this. The Wolof and Serer of Senegal tend to be much taller than both Moor and Fulani. And Mandinkas from Mali and the Senegambia area are also quite tall, much more so than Moors. But again, it's an individual thing.
Hiernaux's data comes from survey using sample sets, taking in what is perceived to be the average of those sets; it does not cover every section of the populations within the regions surveyed. In this respect, it is akin to how opinion polls are said to represent the general population, often compartmentalized into certain demographics, even though the sampled data sets used actually come from a limited sample size or limited data accruement. The obvious difference here, is that the former collects tangible measurements of the subjects while the latter tallies subjective feedbacks of the subjects.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by lamin:
Explorer,
Southern and Eastern Europeans tend to be quite short compared to Europe's more Northern people. One finds the same principle at work in East Asia.
Based on what scientific data?
Coon?? I've read something like that, I believe it is races of Europe. Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Well, we'll find out soon...from lamin. I hope.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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You presented a Hiernaux table in which he talks of physical stature and height, not limb proportions.
Re heights and stature in Europe: I don't have time to search for the data now, but I am sure that that authors like Ripley and Coon have published such in their texts titled "The Races of Europe".
All I can offer now are just casual observations: Northern Europeans--Swedes, Norwegians, Dutch, etc.-- are just noticeably much taller than Spaniards, Italians, Portugese, etc. The English and Irish tend to be intermediate between these 2 groups. Of course, I speak in generalities here.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Yes, what does "stature" entail, if not body build including limb proportions? Read the head post of this thread; what does it say?
Take for instance the "elongated African" camp, the "West Sudan & Guinea Rain Forest, and the "Bantu" camps in the Hiernaux tabulated data; what you think he meant by "long limbs" for the former camp, and "intermediate stature" respectively for the latter two camps? Where merely height was concerned, in some cases, he gave numbers for them in centimeters.
And how does the Hiernaux citation justify the posts you directed *at me*?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alive-(What Box) are you going to answer the questions asked of you or are you going to be discredited in the same manor as the imitation scholar Knowledgeiskey718 who has run away from his intellectual thrashing.
I've sent Knowledgeiskey718 running more times than a pack of Ex-Lax.
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Alive-(What Box) are you going to answer the questions asked of you or are you going to be discredited in the same manor as the imitation scholar Knowledgeiskey718 who has run away from his intellectual thrashing.
I've sent Knowledgeiskey718 running more times than a pack of Ex-Lax.
BWAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Lmao @ this kid and his delusional kindergarten arguments.
quote: Originally posted by knowledgeiskey: Answer a simple question(if you can).Does tropical adaptation give any indication about cranio-facial morphology?
Where's your answer? What's taking so long "scholar"? Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Interestingly a study done noted that North American slaves were considerably taller than their brethren in South America and West Africa (height isn't tropical adaptation, but is another one of those things typically associated with East Africans).
By which I take it that these slaves are well beyond the continuum of 165 to 180cm, right?
Wrong. Or atleast, I take it they meant overall/ on average but I didn't investigate further and now can't find it.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by attentionwhore -gyle104: Alive-(What Box) wrote:
Nah, i just jumped at an excuse to post this cool new map i found. But thanks for your concern.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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1)Why do you feel that I'm the appropriate target audience for your post?
For instance, on the issue of height, wouldn't your post be better directed at say, Alive-What Box's post?
2)The issue here is body proportions, not height per se, and in that area, Hiernaux's tabulated data provides examples if nothing else, of why west Africans cannot be treated as a monolithic entity, as it generally crops up in conversations on this board.
I agree with what you guys are saying - this was one of the things that made me feel skeptical toward the study.
Though they claimed early Afro slave generations were notably tall they considered and reckoned that a reason 4 this was that my ancestors were well fed (which i don't know if this was true or not) - i have to give them that.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Wrong. Or atleast, I take it they meant overall/ on average but I didn't investigate further and now can't find it.
Well, if the continuum of height in west Africa covers 165-180cm, then going by what you say, those "slaves" would on "average" fall beyond this range, showing a higher index.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alive-(What Box) wrote: -------------------------------- Nah, i just jumped at an excuse to post this cool new map i found. But thanks for your concern. --------------------------------
Folks notice that he can't even back up his statements. Thus his posts are nothing more than adhoc fantasies and opinions.
You should stick to serving the other members of this forum h'orderves and Perrier, instead of trying to sound like you're intelligent.
I would call you an intellectual fraud, but hell its not like anyone was fooled thinking you were intelligent in the first place.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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