posted
Analysis of ancient mitochondrial (mtDNA) from African-American skeletal remains from a Portsmouth, New Hampshire slave burial ground
by Richards, Christine Marie, Ph.D., UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL, 2011, 36 pages; 3459169
Abstract:
DNA analysis is an important tool used to aid in identification of human remains and has become a necessary procedure in many types of genetic, historic, or familial research. Present day discoveries of mummies across the globe heighten the need for more DNA analysis protocols, especially when dealing with ancient remains.
For this project, Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of human skeletons unearthed in Portsmouth, New Hampshire was analyzed. Historical maps and records indicated that the skeletons were exhumed from an 18th century slave burial ground. Subsequent bone analysis by archaeologists suggested the skeletons were of African origin. Consequently, the object of this study was to determine specific African ethnic group(s) of the remains through hypervariable (HV) 1 and HV2 haplotype analysis of the isolated mtDNA. Research results conclude that some of the remains belong to the haplogroup U5 (Northern Africa and European) and haplogroup U6a (Northern Africa).
It is important to give these remains recognition and respect, to gather a sense of who they were as people. Historically this project is significant due to the fact this is the only African American cemetery of this age in New England. This dissertation describes the archaeological significance of DNA analysis performed on skeletal remains that has a greater relevance to our understanding of African American geneology. My research broadens the foundation for the large scale genetic analysis of maternal and paternal (Y-DNA) lineages of people of African descent conducted by the African-American DNA Roots Project from which this investigation emanates.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
"Present day discoveries of mummies across the globe heighten the need for more DNA analysis protocols, especially when dealing with ancient remains."
And this matter is presumably tackled in this study, I hope?
As for the markers, it underscores the long trans-Saharan interactions between the coastal northwest Africans and mainland western Africans.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Analysis of ancient mitochondrial (mtDNA) from African-American skeletal remains from a Portsmouth, New Hampshire slave burial ground
by Richards, Christine Marie, Ph.D., UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL, 2011, 36 pages; 3459169
Abstract:
DNA analysis is an important tool used to aid in identification of human remains and has become a necessary procedure in many types of genetic, historic, or familial research. Present day discoveries of mummies across the globe heighten the need for more DNA analysis protocols, especially when dealing with ancient remains.
For this project, Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of human skeletons unearthed in Portsmouth, New Hampshire was analyzed. Historical maps and records indicated that the skeletons were exhumed from an 18th century slave burial ground. Subsequent bone analysis by archaeologists suggested the skeletons were of African origin. Consequently, the object of this study was to determine specific African ethnic group(s) of the remains through hypervariable (HV) 1 and HV2 haplotype analysis of the isolated mtDNA. Research results conclude that some of the remains belong to the haplogroup U5 (Northern Africa and European) and haplogroup U6a (Northern Africa).
It is important to give these remains recognition and respect, to gather a sense of who they were as people. Historically this project is significant due to the fact this is the only African American cemetery of this age in New England. This dissertation describes the archaeological significance of DNA analysis performed on skeletal remains that has a greater relevance to our understanding of African American geneology. My research broadens the foundation for the large scale genetic analysis of maternal and paternal (Y-DNA) lineages of people of African descent conducted by the African-American DNA Roots Project from which this investigation emanates.
The presence of U haplotypes are interesting. Would you mind sharing a link to where you got this?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Many "African Americans" have Arab/north African ancestry. Remember, during the salve trade north Africans and west Africans were warring. Many Arabs were sold into slavery just as many indigenous Africans were. There was a act put in place in the states called the "Moor Sundry Act" if I remember correctly. It was done because four people from Morocco were enslaved somewhere in South Carolina I think. They got their freedom and then petitioned for some special status because Morocco and U.S. were allies. I forget the whole story, I have not read that act in a LONG time but this U group isn't surprising given what was going on back then. Some African American's today probably are of Arab origin some where down the line.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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You will be attacked for this. Explorer, Djehuti, Ausar, Just Call Me Jari, Sundjata, Ish Gebor, and a host of others will not take your historical information well. You have just thrown a cold bucket of ice water onto their eurocentric enslaved heads.
They don't like to be admit it or called out on it but they definitely believe in racial pseudoscience and its companion, pseudohistory.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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You will be attacked for this. Explorer, Djehuti, Ausar, Just Call Me Jari, Sundjata, Ish Gebor, will not take your information well. You have just thrown a cold bucket of ice water onto their eurocentric enslaved minds of theirs.
They don't like to be admit it or called out on it but they definitely believe in racial pseudoscience and its companion, pseudohistory.
Shut up and quit trying to bait.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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My mtDNA is L4b2, which is East African, I'm not shocked to see non L mtDNA lineages pop up in some Aframs, these lineages are even found in the living people of West Africa and can be seen is several studies.
Now stop trying to bait people with your name dropping.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Actually argyle I was one of the first on this forum which pointed out that some African Americans came from parts of Northern Africa. You may recall I posted a article about a African-American male that had a blood disorder similiar to that found in Morocco.
You are delusional though if you think the predominant amount of African-Americans come from northern African countries.
I also know that some people from India were slaves in colonial America.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually argyle I was one of the first on this forum which pointed out that some African Americans came from parts of Northern Africa. You may recall I posted a article about a African-American male that had a blood disorder similiar to that found in Morocco.
You are delusional though if you think the predominant amount of African-Americans come from northern African countries.
I also know that some people from India were slaves in colonial America.
I actually found the bit about south east Asians in January while at Columbia University. This Indian lady explained it to me. Very interesting indeed. Also some "African Americans" also have Chinese backgrounds, again because of indentured servitude. I agree with you though, to say the majority isn't of West African origin is nuts.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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Many "African Americans" have Arab/north African ancestry. Remember, during the salve trade north Africans and west Africans were warring. Many Arabs were sold into slavery just as many indigenous Africans were. There was a act put in place in the states called the "Moor Sundry Act" if I remember correctly.
What "north African and western African" wars are you referring to, that are contemporaneous with the slave trade?
As for the "Moor Sundry Act"...
According to wiki:
The Moors Sundry Act of 1790 was passed by South Carolina legislature, granting special status to the subjects of Sultan of Morocco, Mohammed ben Abdallah. It recognized Moors as "white" people with Jury duty as a privilege. Moors were not to be subjected to laws governing Blacks and slaves.
Petition from Sundry Free Moors
On January 20, 1790, a petition was presented to the South Carolina House of Representatives from a group of eight individuals who were subjects of the Moroccan emperor and residents of the colony. They desired that if they happened to commit any fault amenable to be brought to justice, that as subjects to a prince allied with the United States through the Moroccan-American Treaty of Friendship, they would be tried as citizens instead of under the Negro Act.
The Free Moors, Francis, Daniel, Hammond and Samuel petitioned on behalf of themselves and their wives Fatima, Flora, Sarah and Clarinda.[1] They explained how some years ago while fighting in defense of their country, they and their wives were captured and made prisoners of war by the Portuguese. After this a certain Captain Clark had them delivered to him, promising they would be redeemed by the Moroccan ambassador residing in England, and returned to their country. Instead, he transported them to South Carolina, and sold them for slaves. Since then, "by the greatest industry," they purchased freedom from their respective masters: They requested that as free born subjects of a Prince in alliance with the U.S., that they should not be considered subject to a State Law (then in force) known as the negro law. If they be found guilty of any crime or misdemeanor, they would receive a fair trial by lawful jury.[2] The matter was referred to a committee consisting of Justice Grimke, General Charles Pinckney and Edward Rutledge.
Generally, I don't take anything from wikipedia at face value, but it did provide sources for these accounts as follows:
1. House Journal. Jan. 4, 1790. p. 364
2. Thomas Worth Clover Papers, South Carolina Library, USC.Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually argyle I was one of the first on this forum which pointed out that some African Americans came from parts of Northern Africa. You may recall I posted a article about a African-American male that had a blood disorder similiar to that found in Morocco.
You are delusional though if you think the predominant amount of African-Americans come from northern African countries.
I also know that some people from India were slaves in colonial America.
I actually found the bit about south east Asians in January while at Columbia University. This Indian lady explained it to me. Very interesting indeed. Also some "African Americans" also have Chinese backgrounds, again because of indentured servitude. I agree with you though, to say the majority isn't of West African origin is nuts.
quote: You are delusional though if you think the predominant amount of African-Americans come from northern African countries.
This sounds exactly like all of those white american trolls who so desperately need for slaves being from so called north Africa being 0 to what "they" deem as minimal in order to maintain some sort of quasi ability to define AAs history and heritage.
It is interesting to notice how you always angrily pop up whenever someone sets the record straight about slavery not being exclusive to west Africa. You actually sided with the race loons in the African civilization thread.
You also chatted up with a race loon who were diatribing against the southern Sudanese in another thread.
Is your self-esteem that low ausar?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Folks this ausar loon is low brow to the negative n proportions.
He is obsessed with a racial hierarchy where people whom "he" deems as African American, "west" African, southern Sudanese, and western Sudanese as the lowest of the low of humanity.
He also pretends that he is an Egyptian which is more proof that he believes in some racial hieracrhy mythology. Several posters have smoked out that lie.
ausar is truly one sick individual.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: I agree with you though, to say the majority isn't of West African origin is nuts.
Why don't you back up the above statement.
1. Tell us what modern day countries make up so called "west" Africa.
2. Why would the majority of slaves come from these so called "west" African countries.
I'll be willing to wager that you won't answer either of the above since what you wrote is emotionally driven opinion instead of fact based historical evidence.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Why are you running from the questions that I asked of you? Apparently you must believe in the same pseudoscience and pseudohistory that you are always arguing with the race loons about.
What you see is that slave owners didn't care. They wanted one thing cheap labor. As cheap as they could get it. They didn't care who the enslaved person was. Turk, west Asian, "berber", south Asian, Persian, east Asian, Pacific Islander, etc.
In order to make a futile attempt to combat people who were abolitionists or anti-slavery, they had to resort to pseudoscience and fantasy races. Negro and mullato was and is a fiction.
You will find that in many cases people who were brought to the Americas as slaves and were not African, were often called mullato or "even" negro.
Negro and mullato were catch terms used by some slavers to fend off criticism in the late 18th century and throughout the 19th century for enslaving obvious non-Africans. Just call them mullato (part sub-human) or negro (full sub-human) and you have a justification for that person's enslavement.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ Your first sane and intelligent post in the many years you have been trolling this board... lol! Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: typeZeiss wrote:
quote: I agree with you though, to say the majority isn't of West African origin is nuts.
Why don't you back up the above statement.
1. Tell us what modern day countries make up so called "west" Africa.
2. Why would the majority of slaves come from these so called "west" African countries.
I'll be willing to wager that you won't answer either of the above since what you wrote is emotionally driven opinion instead of fact based historical evidence.
what a foolish statement. My family is from Sierra Leone, where is yours from? As for what constitutes West Africa research ECOWAS and you will have your answer.
Part two It seems you and others here know very little about African history, specifically west african history. Some here seem to have tunnel vision. Nile valley and nothing else, sorta sad, as the saying goes, know thy self. You should sort out some books. When I get home I will see if I can suggest something.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:This sounds exactly like all of those white american trolls who so desperately need for slaves being from so called north Africa being 0 to what "they" deem as minimal in order to maintain some sort of quasi ability to define AAs history and heritage.
No where in my post nor on this message board have I ever tried to define African-Americans or their experiance. This is a classic case of the emotionalism you accuse others of exibiting. What I stated is a historical fact that most African slaves came from the regions of western Africa and Central Africa. If you have evidence of the contrary I invite you to post it.
quote:It is interesting to notice how you always angrily pop up whenever someone sets the record straight about slavery not being exclusive to west Africa. You actually sided with the race loons in the African civilization thread.
Since you are good at reading emotions over the internet, I encourage you spend more of your time in a more constructive manner. Consider joining the police force as both a medium and forensic psychologist. You can make tons of money and actually fund university studies on African history. (:
I encourage you to show exactly where I sided with racial loons in the African civilization threads. Every time you make accusations you are unable to back up your statements with factual information.
quote:You also chatted up with a race loon who were diatribing against the southern Sudanese in another thread.
Example?
quote:Is your self-esteem that low ausar?
Actually, I have a grandiose sense of self. Considering that I certified sociopath. I am able to seperate sheer emotion from fact.
quote:Folks this ausar loon is low brow to the negative n proportions.
This is simply an opinion. What is sad you are trying to diminish my creditbility on internet forum. I am sure you are not the only one on this entire forum that feels this way. I commend you on your bravery for posting this. Here is some friendly advice I hope you take. Egyptsearch is not really that serious. Considering taking your crtique to racialist forums which are openly racist.
quote:He is obsessed with a racial hierarchy where people whom "he" deems as African American, "west" African, southern Sudanese, and western Sudanese as the lowest of the low of humanity.
This is an unfounded claim considering I have showcased the complexity of Western Africans and southern Sudanese. I doubt you know very much about western Africans or southern Sudanese as indicated in most of your posts.
As I stated previously, I invite you to show where I demonstrate a racial hierarchy in any of my posts.
quote:He also pretends that he is an Egyptian which is more proof that he believes in some racial hieracrhy mythology. Several posters have smoked out that lie.
You are actually correct about this. In your previous attack against me it was revealed that I am not even African at all. I am white.
quote:ausar is truly one sick individual.
Yes, I have anti-social personality disorder.
Argyle, you are correct that slavery was primarily a economic insitution but progressed into a racial one. Slavery exist simply because there were other populations across the globe which were easily exploitable because they lacked the technology to defend themselves. This theme has been a constant throught oral and written history. Whether this makes one superior or inferior is based on one's cultural inclination.
However, the slave traders of the 19th century left meticulous records of where they obtained their slaves. Infact, European slavers wrote extensively on which ethic groups they traded and their general temperment. You can deny this historical fact but its scattered across museums and university libraries which validate everything I have written.
Anyway, it seems that you have deviated an otherwise good post into a personal vanity piece. Congradulations.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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You will be attacked for this. Explorer, Djehuti, Ausar, Just Call Me Jari, Sundjata, Ish Gebor, and a host of others will not take your historical information well. You have just thrown a cold bucket of ice water onto their eurocentric enslaved heads.
They don't like to be admit it or called out on it but they definitely believe in racial pseudoscience and its companion, pseudohistory.
You can not speak for me, on how I will deal with certain information. You dimwit!
Yet you call my sources pseudo, though they are from credible international databases. Then what are your amateur homemade webpages? And all this attack by you started, because I posted about civilizations in West Africa. Again peer reviewed anthropological sources. The only real pseudo here is you.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Clyde Winters wrote:
quote: I discuss the East Indians slaves here
What you see is that slave owners didn't care. They wanted one thing cheap labor. As cheap as they could get it. They didn't care who the enslaved person was. Turk, west Asian, "berber", south Asian, Persian, east Asian, Pacific Islander, etc.
In order to make a futile attempt to combat people who were abolitionists or anti-slavery, they had to resort to pseudoscience and fantasy races. Negro and mullato was and is a fiction.
You will find that in many cases people who were brought to the Americas as slaves and were not African, were often called mullato or "even" negro.
Negro and mullato were catch terms used by some slavers to fend off criticism in the late 18th century and throughout the 19th century for enslaving obvious non-Africans. Just call them mullato (part sub-human) or negro (full sub-human) and you have a justification for that person's enslavement.
Can you backup all of your claims, by credible peer reviewed sources. I am sure you have an abundance of this, since you seem to be obsessed by this topic, slavery. At every chance you get.
Give as much sources and places as possible, by credible sources. Not just North America (where only about 10% of enslaved Africans was taken).
Thanks in advance. And while you're at it, can you explain why the majority of Amerindians in the Caribbean was killed off?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Many "African Americans" have Arab/north African ancestry. Remember, during the salve trade north Africans and west Africans were warring. Many Arabs were sold into slavery just as many indigenous Africans were. There was a act put in place in the states called the "Moor Sundry Act" if I remember correctly.
What "north African and western African" wars are you referring to, that are contemporaneous with the slave trade?
As for the "Moor Sundry Act"...
According to wiki:
The Moors Sundry Act of 1790 was passed by South Carolina legislature, granting special status to the subjects of Sultan of Morocco, Mohammed ben Abdallah. It recognized Moors as "white" people with Jury duty as a privilege. Moors were not to be subjected to laws governing Blacks and slaves.
Petition from Sundry Free Moors
On January 20, 1790, a petition was presented to the South Carolina House of Representatives from a group of eight individuals who were subjects of the Moroccan emperor and residents of the colony. They desired that if they happened to commit any fault amenable to be brought to justice, that as subjects to a prince allied with the United States through the Moroccan-American Treaty of Friendship, they would be tried as citizens instead of under the Negro Act.
The Free Moors, Francis, Daniel, Hammond and Samuel petitioned on behalf of themselves and their wives Fatima, Flora, Sarah and Clarinda.[1] They explained how some years ago while fighting in defense of their country, they and their wives were captured and made prisoners of war by the Portuguese. After this a certain Captain Clark had them delivered to him, promising they would be redeemed by the Moroccan ambassador residing in England, and returned to their country. Instead, he transported them to South Carolina, and sold them for slaves. Since then, "by the greatest industry," they purchased freedom from their respective masters: They requested that as free born subjects of a Prince in alliance with the U.S., that they should not be considered subject to a State Law (then in force) known as the negro law. If they be found guilty of any crime or misdemeanor, they would receive a fair trial by lawful jury.[2] The matter was referred to a committee consisting of Justice Grimke, General Charles Pinckney and Edward Rutledge.
Generally, I don't take anything from wikipedia at face value, but it did provide sources for these accounts as follows:
1. House Journal. Jan. 4, 1790. p. 364
2. Thomas Worth Clover Papers, South Carolina Library, USC.
1. Never use wikipedia as a source, it is filled with comments put there people that know about as much about a subject as the person seeking the information. Anyway I have in my position the following book "The State Records of South Carolina, Journals of the House of Representatives 1789-1790, Steven Allen" ISBN 0-87249-944-8. I will type out the relevant information from pages 363-364
"A petition was presented to the House from Sundry Free Moors, Subjects of the Emperor of Morocco; and residents in this State, praying that in case they should Commit Any Fault amenable to be brought to Justice, that they as Subjects to a Prince in Alliance with the United States would be liable to be tried, and not under the Negro Act, which was received and read. [The humble Petition of Francis, Daniel, Hammond and Samuel, (Free Moors) in behalf of themselves and their wives Fatima, Flora, Sarah and Clarinda, Humbly Sheweth That your Petitioners some years past had the misfortune while fighting in the defense of their Country, to be captured with their wives and made prisoners of War by one of the Kings of Africa. That a certain Captain Clark had them delivered to him on a promise that they should be redeemed by the Emperor of Morocco's Ambassador then residing in England, in order to have them returned to their own Country: Instead of which he brought them to this State, and sold them for slaves. Since that period they have by the greatest industry been enabled to purchase their freedom from their respective Masters: And now prayeth your Honorable House, That as free born subjects of a Prince now in Alliance with these United States; that they may not be considered a subject to a Law of this State (now in force) called the negro law: but if they should unfortunately be guilty of any crime or misdemeanor against the Laws of the Land, that they may have a just trial by a Lawful Jury. And your Petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray.]
Ordered that it be referred to a Committee, the following Gentlemen were accordingly appointed, Mr. Justice Grimke, General Pinckney & Mr. Edward Rutledge."
That is the ending of the passage in the book. There is a footnote on 364 which reads "Thomas Worth Glover Papers, South Caroliniana Library, University of South Carolina. The petition printed here is taken from a copy that was probably made in the nineteenth century"
I believe you asked about what wars were being fought. With out all do respect I suggest you get books on west african history. Don't google it and dont consult wikipedia, get books on the subject and actually read them through, they you will understand what is going on. I generally refer people to books instead of typing out stuff. I feel the interent leans heavily toward intellectual laziness but the book in question goes over a number of laws and petitions which are irrelevant to the subject matter, all we needed is a few paragraphs from two pages to prove my point. I have provided the ISBN and full book title. I think it cost me all of 12 bucks to get my hands on. I first read about these people in a book written by a Senegalese woman. I looked at her bibliography and got the name of the book and acquired the book. I wouldn't suggest purchasing it just to verify what I have said though, see if you can get a inter library loan.
P.S. page 373-374 goes on to say that the petition was ratified. I can type that out too if you like. its like a paragraph long or so
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually argyle I was one of the first on this forum which pointed out that some African Americans came from parts of Northern Africa. You may recall I posted a article about a African-American male that had a blood disorder similiar to that found in Morocco.
You are delusional though if you think the predominant amount of African-Americans come from northern African countries.
I also know that some people from India were slaves in colonial America.
I actually found the bit about south east Asians in January while at Columbia University. This Indian lady explained it to me. Very interesting indeed. Also some "African Americans" also have Chinese backgrounds, again because of indentured servitude. I agree with you though, to say the majority isn't of West African origin is nuts.
If so, were these people taken merely to North America, or also to other parts of the Americas? If so, which places?
Do you have any other sources other then a compiled video.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually argyle I was one of the first on this forum which pointed out that some African Americans came from parts of Northern Africa. You may recall I posted a article about a African-American male that had a blood disorder similiar to that found in Morocco.
You are delusional though if you think the predominant amount of African-Americans come from northern African countries.
I also know that some people from India were slaves in colonial America.
I actually found the bit about south east Asians in January while at Columbia University. This Indian lady explained it to me. Very interesting indeed. Also some "African Americans" also have Chinese backgrounds, again because of indentured servitude. I agree with you though, to say the majority isn't of West African origin is nuts.
At several places Chinese, mostly males, were taken at the ending of slavery. So they copulated with African females.
In some Latin American and Caribbean countries you will find "blacks" with Chinese surnames.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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My mtDNA is L4b2, which is East African, I'm not shocked to see non L mtDNA lineages pop up in some Aframs, these lineages are even found in the living people of West Africa and can be seen is several studies.
Now stop trying to bait people with your name dropping.
Indeed, it is recorded history and well known that after the abolishment of slavery several non-African groups were taken over to the Americas to labor, some of these people obviously mixed with the Africans who were there prior to them. Therefore you will find "blacks" with certain admixture.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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1. Never use wikipedia as a source, it is filled with comments put there people that know about as much about a subject as the person seeking the information.
I just told you that I don't take anything posted on Wikipedia at face value. What does that then mean?! You are unnecessarily being redundant, see:
Generally, I don't take anything from wikipedia at face value, **but** it did provide sources for these accounts as follows:
1. House Journal. Jan. 4, 1790. p. 364
2. Thomas Worth Clover Papers, South Carolina Library, USC.
quote: Anyway I have in my position the following book "The State Records of South Carolina, Journals of the House of Representatives 1789-1790, Steven Allen" ISBN 0-87249-944-8. I will type out the relevant information from pages 363-364
"A petition was presented to the House from Sundry Free Moors, Subjects of the Emperor of Morocco; and residents in this State, praying that in case they should Commit Any Fault amenable to be brought to Justice, that they as Subjects to a Prince in Alliance with the United States would be liable to be tried, and not under the Negro Act, which was received and read. [The humble Petition of Francis, Daniel, Hammond and Samuel, (Free Moors) in behalf of themselves and their wives Fatima, Flora, Sarah and Clarinda, Humbly Sheweth That your Petitioners some years past had the misfortune while fighting in the defense of their Country, to be captured with their wives and made prisoners of War by one of the Kings of Africa. That a certain Captain Clark had them delivered to him on a promise that they should be redeemed by the Emperor of Morocco's Ambassador then residing in England, in order to have them returned to their own Country: Instead of which he brought them to this State, and sold them for slaves. Since that period they have by the greatest industry been enabled to purchase their freedom from their respective Masters: And now prayeth your Honorable House, That as free born subjects of a Prince now in Alliance with these United States; that they may not be considered a subject to a Law of this State (now in force) called the negro law: but if they should unfortunately be guilty of any crime or misdemeanor against the Laws of the Land, that they may have a just trial by a Lawful Jury. And your Petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray.]
Ordered that it be referred to a Committee, the following Gentlemen were accordingly appointed, Mr. Justice Grimke, General Pinckney & Mr. Edward Rutledge."
The difference between your reference and that of Wiki's is that the latter points us right to the primary source [see, as I posted it above], whereas you are relying on a secondary source.
What is "Kings of Africa" supposed to mean anyhow? Would the Sultan of Morocco at this time have a well developed geopolitical concept of "Africa"? Why couldn't the Sultan have been more specific about the African polity(s) he was referring to?
quote:I believe you asked about what wars were being fought. With out all do respect I suggest you get books on west african history. Don't google it and dont consult wikipedia, get books on the subject and actually read them through, they you will understand what is going on. I generally refer people to books instead of typing out stuff. I feel the interent leans heavily toward intellectual laziness but the book in question goes over a number of laws and petitions which are irrelevant to the subject matter, all we needed is a few paragraphs from two pages to prove my point. I have provided the ISBN and full book title. I think it cost me all of 12 bucks to get my hands on. I first read about these people in a book written by a Senegalese woman. I looked at her bibliography and got the name of the book and acquired the book. I wouldn't suggest purchasing it just to verify what I have said though, see if you can get a inter library loan.
You are stalling. I'm not asking you the question from a position of not knowing, I'm asking you from a position of getting you to validate your claim. See the difference?
As far as memory serves me, the last major conflict between Moroccan polities and those of Sudan before the Trans-Atlantic slavery involving Europeans took off was the Moroccan and Songhai conflict.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually argyle I was one of the first on this forum which pointed out that some African Americans came from parts of Northern Africa. You may recall I posted a article about a African-American male that had a blood disorder similiar to that found in Morocco.
You are delusional though if you think the predominant amount of African-Americans come from northern African countries.
I also know that some people from India were slaves in colonial America.
I actually found the bit about south east Asians in January while at Columbia University. This Indian lady explained it to me. Very interesting indeed. Also some "African Americans" also have Chinese backgrounds, again because of indentured servitude. I agree with you though, to say the majority isn't of West African origin is nuts.
1. Never use wikipedia as a source, it is filled with comments put there people that know about as much about a subject as the person seeking the information.
I just told you that I don't take anything posted on Wikipedia at face value. What does that then mean?! You are unnecessarily being redundant, see:
Generally, I don't take anything from wikipedia at face value, **but** it did provide sources for these accounts as follows:
1. House Journal. Jan. 4, 1790. p. 364
2. Thomas Worth Clover Papers, South Carolina Library, USC.
quote: Anyway I have in my position the following book "The State Records of South Carolina, Journals of the House of Representatives 1789-1790, Steven Allen" ISBN 0-87249-944-8. I will type out the relevant information from pages 363-364
"A petition was presented to the House from Sundry Free Moors, Subjects of the Emperor of Morocco; and residents in this State, praying that in case they should Commit Any Fault amenable to be brought to Justice, that they as Subjects to a Prince in Alliance with the United States would be liable to be tried, and not under the Negro Act, which was received and read. [The humble Petition of Francis, Daniel, Hammond and Samuel, (Free Moors) in behalf of themselves and their wives Fatima, Flora, Sarah and Clarinda, Humbly Sheweth That your Petitioners some years past had the misfortune while fighting in the defense of their Country, to be captured with their wives and made prisoners of War by one of the Kings of Africa. That a certain Captain Clark had them delivered to him on a promise that they should be redeemed by the Emperor of Morocco's Ambassador then residing in England, in order to have them returned to their own Country: Instead of which he brought them to this State, and sold them for slaves. Since that period they have by the greatest industry been enabled to purchase their freedom from their respective Masters: And now prayeth your Honorable House, That as free born subjects of a Prince now in Alliance with these United States; that they may not be considered a subject to a Law of this State (now in force) called the negro law: but if they should unfortunately be guilty of any crime or misdemeanor against the Laws of the Land, that they may have a just trial by a Lawful Jury. And your Petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray.]
Ordered that it be referred to a Committee, the following Gentlemen were accordingly appointed, Mr. Justice Grimke, General Pinckney & Mr. Edward Rutledge."
The difference between your reference and that of Wiki's is that the latter points us right to the primary source [see, as I posted it above], whereas you are relying on a secondary source.
What is "Kings of Africa" supposed to mean anyhow? Would the Sultan of Morocco at this time have a well developed geopolitical concept of "Africa"? Why couldn't the Sultan have been more specific about the African polity(s) he was referring to?
quote:I believe you asked about what wars were being fought. With out all do respect I suggest you get books on west african history. Don't google it and dont consult wikipedia, get books on the subject and actually read them through, they you will understand what is going on. I generally refer people to books instead of typing out stuff. I feel the interent leans heavily toward intellectual laziness but the book in question goes over a number of laws and petitions which are irrelevant to the subject matter, all we needed is a few paragraphs from two pages to prove my point. I have provided the ISBN and full book title. I think it cost me all of 12 bucks to get my hands on. I first read about these people in a book written by a Senegalese woman. I looked at her bibliography and got the name of the book and acquired the book. I wouldn't suggest purchasing it just to verify what I have said though, see if you can get a inter library loan.
You are stalling. I'm not asking you the question from a position of not knowing, I'm asking you from a position of getting you to validate your claim. See the difference?
As far as memory serves me, the last major conflict between Moroccan polities and those of Sudan before the Trans-Atlantic slavery involving Europeans took off was the Moroccan and Songhai conflict.
*sigh* again you relied on wikipedia other wise you would not have provided a wikipedia source. I know you're doing it because it validates your assumption, which by the way is based on your imagination and not reality. I constantly speak of intellectual laziness and this is the very definition of the expression. Put your assumptions, ignorances and pre conceived notions in your back pocket and crack a actual book open. Googling to validate wrong assumptions is never going to lead anywhere.
If you think a wikipedia source trumps THE STATE RECORDS OF SOUTH CAROLINA which was "Published for the South Carolina Department of Archives and History by the University of South Carolina Press Columbia, S.C." *I am quoting from the book itself here* then I need to excuse myself from this conversation because it is no longer based on intelligent discourse. As for "what your memory serves" I suggest you read books on west african history, you seem to know little. Dealing with the wording of the petition, these are the words of white Americans in South Carolina from the 1700s who I am sure know very little about Africa, and they are attempting to describe the situation of the petitioners to their fellow law makers in S. Carolina at the time. If you have questions about the wording, build a time machine and go ask them why they worded it the way they did. Put your thinking cap on fella.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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posted
TZeiss, Not all Wikipedia entries are unreliable. In the natural and social sciences reliable information is often given--and with references to check.
On the other hand, not all primary sources offer accurate information.
Note that the name of this website is Egyptsearch, so some of its subsections would tend to deal with Ancient Egypt. Yet there are many posts on all kinds of topics--ranging from anthropology to world aesthetics.
The point about Egyptian history a nd archaeology is that it is the only ancient civilization studied by Europeans where there has been a long-standing concerted effort to portray as different from what it actually was. The ideological struggle still continues. The goal is confirm--erroneously of course--what Arnold Toynbee,the dean of British historians claimed many years ago: "the only people never to have had 'civilization'[as defined by European anthropologists] are Africans[ his actual term was "negroes"].
The basis for this is that Western anthropologists have adopted--openly or implicitly--a hierarchical view on the so-called "races". On this hierarchical tree Africans are located on the lower branches which affords all kinds of discrimination based on assigned phenotype.
Thus I understand why some African scholars--amateur or professional--don't want to cede full monopoly of research on ancient African civilizations to Europeans.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
On the issue of the origins of African Americans.
This matter is easily settled. Sure the ancestors of African Americans derived from places as far East as Madagascar, way off the East African coast.
But according to the empirical genomic evidence of Hg analysis(Tishkoff, Kittles, etc.) the majority(75%+) of AA males are E1b1a(West and Central Africa). The AA MtDNA is L1 and L2 in the main--both of West and Central African origin.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: On the issue of the origins of African Americans.
This matter is easily settled. Sure the ancestors of African Americans derived from places as far East as Madagascar, way off the East African coast.
But according to the empirical genomic evidence of Hg analysis(Tishkoff, Kittles, etc.) the majority(75%+) of AA males are E1b1a(West and Central Africa). The AA MtDNA is L1 and L2 in the main--both of West and Central African origin.
There can never be an emprical genomic study of AAs because the subjects of any research paper are self-selected and may not be representative of the entire AA population.
In addition, geneticist fail to check the textual literature relating to AA origins and as a result the results may not reflect historical reality, as noted by typeZeiss.
Finally in relation to haplogroups N, R and M too much emphasis is placed on identifying these hgs when found among AAs-- as an indication of African-Europen admixture instead of African origination.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: On the issue of the origins of African Americans.
This matter is easily settled. Sure the ancestors of African Americans derived from places as far East as Madagascar, way off the East African coast.
But according to the empirical genomic evidence of Hg analysis(Tishkoff, Kittles, etc.) the majority(75%+) of AA males are E1b1a(West and Central Africa). The AA MtDNA is L1 and L2 in the main--both of West and Central African origin.
This is not even true, IN ref to AA Y-Dna in most studies its usually around 60% E-m2, 20% R1b~ and 20% A, B, E(xE-M2). V-88 etc.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: TZeiss, Not all Wikipedia entries are unreliable. In the natural and social sciences reliable information is often given--and with references to check.
On the other hand, not all primary sources offer accurate information.
Note that the name of this website is Egyptsearch, so some of its subsections would tend to deal with Ancient Egypt. Yet there are many posts on all kinds of topics--ranging from anthropology to world aesthetics.
The point about Egyptian history a nd archaeology is that it is the only ancient civilization studied by Europeans where there has been a long-standing concerted effort to portray as different from what it actually was. The ideological struggle still continues. The goal is confirm--erroneously of course--what Arnold Toynbee,the dean of British historians claimed many years ago: "the only people never to have had 'civilization'[as defined by European anthropologists] are Africans[ his actual term was "negroes"].
The basis for this is that Western anthropologists have adopted--openly or implicitly--a hierarchical view on the so-called "races". On this hierarchical tree Africans are located on the lower branches which affords all kinds of discrimination based on assigned phenotype.
Thus I understand why some African scholars--amateur or professional--don't want to cede full monopoly of research on ancient African civilizations to Europeans.
You get NO argument from me on ANYTHING you wrote. However, what I am discussing with this guy who quoted wikipedia of all things is that not all African Americans were brought here as slaves from west africa. I used this petition by these Arabs from Morocco and their wives to highlight my point. What I am quoting from is a book that was put together from the actual paperwork (petitions) from back then (in the 1700s). Nothing to argue about between me and the other poster on this point, its a fact whether he wants to argue about it or not.
But I do agree when it comes to Africa, we need Africans (this includes those of the diaspora) doing this research. We need to put eurocentrism and afrocentrism aside and search for the truth. If you think about it though, from the European stand point, it makes total since to deny the African's contributions to the world. Makes it sort of hard to try and monopolize a people and their resources when in fact it is because of these very people that the world has religion, kingdoms or civilization even. Also to be in a perpetual state of servitude you, yourself must except that you are a "servant". Hard to do that to a people who realize what they are capable of. Do you know in Africa in grade schools you generally do not learn about African history? You are taught European history. Kind of odd is it not? You can go to no other place and see such oddness. Even in America in gradeschool you are mostly taught Africans threw spears and eat elephants, became slaves by the mighty white man, became literate in the white mans institutions and now you have rich blacks in the west. Nothing of Egypt (which is a African invention), nothing of Ta-seti, Ta-Pemui, Axum etc.
You must subdue the would be servant psychological through making them think they are some how inferior and that their best hope is to serve another group which portrays itself as being superior/more advanced.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote: Indeed, it is recorded history and well known that after the abolishment of slavery several non-African groups were taken over to the Americas to labor, some of these people obviously mixed with the Africans who were there prior to them.
Try again loon. Those people whom "You" refer to as non-subsaharan Africans were being brought to America as slaves well before the abolishment of slavery. In the 16 and 1700's to be exact.
Yet another scholarly beatdown that I have administered to you.
Ish Gebor your crazy is so in need of slavery to be assigned to certain groups of subsaharan Africans that it is apparent that you need some psychiatric help.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
People the problem with Ish Gebor is that he thinks history is only the silly narrative that was drilled into his pea brained skull by white looney tunes.
Its obvious that this boy doesn't understand that history is like the universe it can never be told as a narrow constraint. This is why he is so easy to defeat.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: what a foolish statement. My family is from Sierra Leone, where is yours from? As for what constitutes West Africa research ECOWAS and you will have your answer.
Are you having trouble? Why don't you post what you call "west" Africa.
Stalling only signify that you can't even define your own terms. Which means you're just another fool who can's substantiate anything he says because its all opinionated drivel.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: Part two It seems you and others here know very little about African history, specifically west african history. Some here seem to have tunnel vision. Nile valley and nothing else, sorta sad, as the saying goes, know thy self. You should sort out some books. When I get home I will see if I can suggest something.
Do you even read the stupidity that you post?
Apparently you are convinced that "west" African = slave and slave = "west" African despite all of the evidence that serious scholars have posted on this forum destroying that propaganda.
I bet you consider yourself a negro don't you typeZeiss?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Once again argyle has administered several scholarly beatdowns in the thread. He has documented the diabolical nature of the Trans Atlantic slave trade. The Europeans/Americans were adamant that slaves be acquired from each region of Africa equally. There were men employed to keep these tallies and if they saw any one region taking more slaves than another area they would put a temporary cap on trade for that area until the numbers balanced out. But the reverse was even more true. Had they found any areas of Africa that had too little or no slaves coming in they would halt imports from those other areas where trade was thriving -until figures came up in these low activity regions. They were very careful to keep things extremely even and perfectly proportioned. After a few hundred years they had the whole operation in perfect balance. So you can't say that slaves came from one place more than the other. They kept records. Argyle has well documented the equilibrium of the slave trade .
Another beatdown that argyle served is the fallacy of "West Africa" That's a Eurocentic myth. It's called the "directional fallacy", a divide and conquer methodology. There is no "East Africa" , "North Africa" etc. It is all Africa. Likewise Europeans like to talk about "Western Europe" , "Southern Europe" etc, These things don't exist, it's all Europe. For example, if you were to list the nations of "West Africa" you that you would leave out a country out or add one without good reason. It's all arbitrary. Cameroon is no more West than Tanzania. We must not let the Euros try to pull their "directions" attempts to divide Africa. These nation names themselves are not even valid but imposed by colonialists. All there really is is continents.
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: typeZeiss wrote:
quote: what a foolish statement. My family is from Sierra Leone, where is yours from? As for what constitutes West Africa research ECOWAS and you will have your answer.
Are you having trouble? Why don't you post what you call "west" Africa.
Stalling only signify that you can't even define your own terms. Which means you're just another fool who can's substantiate anything he says because its all opinionated drivel.
*chuckle* uhuh
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: *sigh* again you relied on wikipedia other wise you would not have provided a wikipedia source.
You can sigh all you want. I never said I did not rely on wikipedia as a source here--that is a figment of your own imagination.
I said that I don't generally take wikipedia at face value, but under the current circumstance, I'm willing to give it a benefit of doubt, since it points the reader right to the primary source, rather than the secondary account you are presumably relying on. See the difference?
quote:I know you're doing it because it validates your assumption, which by the way is based on your imagination and not reality.
What would that "assumption" be? I'm willing to bet if you were to answer this, you'll find out that you are the party here with a wild imagination. As I recall it, this is about validating your claims, not mine. You are seriously delusional, if you think you are sophisticated enough to deflect attention away from this.
quote:I constantly speak of intellectual laziness and this is the very definition of the expression. Put your assumptions, ignorances and pre conceived notions in your back pocket and crack a actual book open.
How about your validating your assumptions, ignorance and pre-conceived notions, instead of blabbering on about cracking a book open, which you haven't even proven that you've done yourself.
And this is not a "book-discussing study group". This is an internet forum, where issues are discussed. You want be part of a book study group, you are in the wrong place. Wake up and get with the program.
quote: Googling to validate wrong assumptions is never going to lead anywhere.
Well then, validate your assumptions with what you know, as *specifically demanded* in followup queries to your claims. You don't need google to do that. You don't need to wusyfit off-tangent on and on about googling.
quote: If you think a wikipedia source trumps THE STATE RECORDS OF SOUTH CAROLINA
Wikipedia's reference to the primary source of the same record definitely trumps your secondary source purportedly of the same record. No contest.
quote: *I am quoting from the book itself here* then I need to excuse myself from this conversation because it is no longer based on intelligent discourse.
A thinly veiled cop-out. The book is not the primary document itself, whereas Wikipedia points the reader directly to the actual document.
You haven't bothered answering the glaring contradictions between the Wiki citation and that of your secondary source, on the reference to the "Portuguese" and "Kings of Africa" respectively, and we can deduce why.
The former makes much more sense than the latter (your citation). Why would the Sultan of Morocco call his purported warring African rivals "Kings of Africa", as though he were diminishing his own authority for one, unless you are going to convince us that the Sultan somehow doesn't consider Morocco as African?
Secondly, how likely would the Sultan of Morocco at that time have a strong sense of nationalism in the form of "Africa" as a geopolitical unit; you haven't bothered accounting for that either.
You never bothered to tell us what these other African polities are, that were supposed to have been at war with "northern Africans" during the slave trade, as it seems to defy history, as I can recall. Again, your motives for evasion are not that hard to figure out.
quote:As for "what your memory serves" I suggest you read books on west african history, you seem to know little.
Yeah, yeah, we get the drill. Whenever you are questioned, we need not bother with expecting validation from you. We simply "have to crack a book open". LOL
quote:Dealing with the wording of the petition, these are the words of white Americans in South Carolina from the 1700s who I am sure know very little about Africa, and they are attempting to describe the situation of the petitioners to their fellow law makers in S. Carolina at the time. If you have questions about the wording, build a time machine and go ask them why they worded it the way they did. Put your thinking cap on fella.
I guess someone in this discussion will have to put their thinking cap on, and it might as well be me. You were certainly not putting your thinking cap on when you suggested that I build a time machine and go and ask now-dead people why they worded something that you've concocted yourself in the present.
How do you propose I build this machine, and go about beating the speed of light and go back in time?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
typeZeiss at it again trying to make a blanket statement about wikipedia with his nose in the air -but got exposed that wikipedia, in this case listed primary sources, while his own source didn't. Wikipedia has many fine entries. It also has errors. But when it is accurate people try to use the excuse that it's wikipedia so everything it says is therefore wrong. Prove the information is wrong first. Books can be just as wrong. In fact a much wider variety of people look at wikipedia and if something is wrong there's a better chance it will be corrected whereas an error in a book is permanent.
quote:Originally posted by astenb: This is not even true, IN ref to AA Y-Dna in most studies its usually around 60% E-m2, 20% R1b~ and 20% A, B, E(xE-M2). V-88 etc.
Where was R-V88 implicated in AA Y-DNA?
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: You get NO argument from me on ANYTHING you wrote. However, what I am discussing with this guy who quoted wikipedia of all things is that not all African Americans were brought here as slaves from west africa.
You are so hopeless that you think you can outfox the forum regulars, who have been here much longer than a narcissistic newbie like yourself, with putting words into people's mouth. I've been singing for years, the tune that you just now "discovered". The record stands for itself; you are therefore wasting your time with a futile hand at propaganda.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I noted that you said that African history is not taught in African schools. Maybe some?
As far as I know the Ajayi-Crowder text book on West Africa history has been used in high schools for many years.
In the so-called Francophone side, Joseph Ki-Zerbo's text "History of Africa" plus the works of other historians have been used at the baccalaureat level.
In fact, most high school level graduates in Guinea and Seneggal know about personnages like Samori Toure , Lat Dior, etc.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I noted that you said that African history is not taught in African schools. Maybe some?
As far as I know the Ajayi-Crowder text book on West Africa history has been used in high schools for many years.
In the so-called Francophone side, Joseph Ki-Zerbo's text "History of Africa" plus the works of other historians have been used at the baccalaureat level.
In fact, most high school level graduates in Guinea and Seneggal know about personnages like Samori Toure , Lat Dior, etc.
If you are in a I.B. program yes, definitely, IF their focus is that (african history) but generally, no.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by astenb: This is not even true, IN ref to AA Y-Dna in most studies its usually around 60% E-m2, 20% R1b~ and 20% A, B, E(xE-M2). V-88 etc.
Where was R-V88 implicated in AA Y-DNA?
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: You get NO argument from me on ANYTHING you wrote. However, what I am discussing with this guy who quoted wikipedia of all things is that not all African Americans were brought here as slaves from west africa.
You are so hopeless that you think you can outfox the forum regulars, who have been here much longer than a narcissistic newbie like yourself, with putting words into people's mouth. I've been singing for years, the tune that you just now "discovered". The record stands for itself; you are therefore wasting your time with a futile hand at propaganda.
I have no idea what you're on about.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: *sigh* again you relied on wikipedia other wise you would not have provided a wikipedia source.
You can sigh all you want. I never said I did not rely on wikipedia as a source here--that is a figment of your own imagination.
I said that I don't generally take wikipedia at face value, but under the current circumstance, I'm willing to give it a benefit of doubt, since it points the reader right to the primary source, rather than the secondary account you are presumably relying on. See the difference?
quote:I know you're doing it because it validates your assumption, which by the way is based on your imagination and not reality.
What would that "assumption" be? I'm willing to bet if you were to answer this, you'll find out that you are the party here with a wild imagination. As I recall it, this is about validating your claims, not mine. You are seriously delusional, if you think you are sophisticated enough to deflect attention away from this.
quote:I constantly speak of intellectual laziness and this is the very definition of the expression. Put your assumptions, ignorances and pre conceived notions in your back pocket and crack a actual book open.
How about your validating your assumptions, ignorance and pre-conceived notions, instead of blabbering on about cracking a book open, which you haven't even proven that you've done yourself.
And this is not a "book-discussing study group". This is an internet forum, where issues are discussed. You want be part of a book study group, you are in the wrong place. Wake up and get with the program.
quote: Googling to validate wrong assumptions is never going to lead anywhere.
Well then, validate your assumptions with what you know, as *specifically demanded* in followup queries to your claims. You don't need google to do that. You don't need to wusyfit off-tangent on and on about googling.
quote: If you think a wikipedia source trumps THE STATE RECORDS OF SOUTH CAROLINA
Wikipedia's reference to the primary source of the same record definitely trumps your secondary source purportedly of the same record. No contest.
quote: *I am quoting from the book itself here* then I need to excuse myself from this conversation because it is no longer based on intelligent discourse.
A thinly veiled cop-out. The book is not the primary document itself, whereas Wikipedia points the reader directly to the actual document.
You haven't bothered answering the glaring contradictions between the Wiki citation and that of your secondary source, on the reference to the "Portuguese" and "Kings of Africa" respectively, and we can deduce why.
The former makes much more sense than the latter (your citation). Why would the Sultan of Morocco call his purported warring African rivals "Kings of Africa", as though he were diminishing his own authority for one, unless you are going to convince us that the Sultan somehow doesn't consider Morocco as African?
Secondly, how likely would the Sultan of Morocco at that time have a strong sense of nationalism in the form of "Africa" as a geopolitical unit; you haven't bothered accounting for that either.
You never bothered to tell us what these other African polities are, that were supposed to have been at war with "northern Africans" during the slave trade, as it seems to defy history, as I can recall. Again, your motives for evasion are not that hard to figure out.
quote:As for "what your memory serves" I suggest you read books on west african history, you seem to know little.
Yeah, yeah, we get the drill. Whenever you are questioned, we need not bother with expecting validation from you. We simply "have to crack a book open". LOL
quote:Dealing with the wording of the petition, these are the words of white Americans in South Carolina from the 1700s who I am sure know very little about Africa, and they are attempting to describe the situation of the petitioners to their fellow law makers in S. Carolina at the time. If you have questions about the wording, build a time machine and go ask them why they worded it the way they did. Put your thinking cap on fella.
I guess someone in this discussion will have to put their thinking cap on, and it might as well be me. You were certainly not putting your thinking cap on when you suggested that I build a time machine and go and ask now-dead people why they worded something that you've concocted yourself in the present.
How do you propose I build this machine, and go about beating the speed of light and go back in time?
*chuckle* uhuh
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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posted
TypeZeiss, You are off on the teaching of history in Africa. Maybe some places neglect to teach African history but that's not true everywhere. Here's a clear example: in the Gambia all high school students are required to visit Juffure and James Island to learn about the Kunta Kinte experience.
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