posted
The slaves taken to the americas during the Atlantic slave trade came from Sub-Saharan Africa.
Below we compare Egyptians to West Africans. The Amarna mummies are closer to the Southern African (average MLI 326.94), African Great Lakes (average MLI 323.76), and Tropical West African (average MLI 83.74) regions—not the Horners.
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This study supports the linguistic evidence supporting a relationship between West African languages and Egyptian.
Chiekh Anta Diop has contributed much to the Afrocentric social sciences. Here we discuss many of Diop's views on using the linguistic sciences to rediscover the ancient history of Blacks.
Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitè culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).
Language is the sanctum sanctorum of Diop's Afrocentric historical method. The Diopian view of historiography combines the research of linguistics, history and psychology to interpret the cultural unity of African people.
C. Anta Diop is the founder of modern Afrocentricism . Diop (1974,1991) laid the foundations for the Afrocentric idea in education. He laid these foundations using both the historical and anthropological/linguistic methods of research to explain the role of the Blacks in World History.
There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common Physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages. (Winters 1989a) Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization. (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991)
The opposition of many Eurocentric scholars to Afrocentric -ism results from white hostility to Diop's idea of a Black Egypt, and the view that Egyptians spoke an African ,rather than Afro-Asiatic language.
Recently, Eurocentric American scholars have alleged to write reviews of Diop's recent book (Diop 1991). Although these reviewers mention the work of Diop in their articles, they never review his work properly, because they lack the ability to understand the many disciplines that Diop has mastered.(Lefkowitz 1992; Baines 1991)
For example Lefkowitz (1992) in The New Republic, summarizes
Diop (1974) but never presents any evidence to dispute the findings of Diop. The most popular "review" of Diop (1991) was done by Baines (1991) review in the New York Times Book Review. In this "review" Baines (1991) claims that "...the evidence and reasoning used to support the arguments are often unsound".
Instead of addressing the evidence Diop (1991) presents of the African role in the rise of civilization that he alleges is "unsound", he is asking the reader to reject Diop's thesis without refutation of specific evidence presented by Diop of the
African contributions to Science and Philosophy. Baines (l991)
claims that Diop's Civilization or Barbarism, is not a work of originality, he fails to dispute any factual evidence presented by Diop.
Baines (1991) wants the public to accept his general negative comments about Civilization or Barbarism ,based on the fact that he is an Egyptologist. This is not enough, in academia
to refute a thesis one must present counter evidence that proves the falseness of a thesis not unsubstantiated rhetoric. We can not accept the negative views of Baines on faith alone.
In the recovery of information concerning the African past, Diop promotes semantic anthropology, comparative linguistics and the study of Onomastics. The main thesis of Diop is that typonymy and ethnonymy of Africa point to a common cradle for Paleo-Africans in the Nile Valley (Diop 1978, 67).
Onomastics is the science of names. Diop has studied legends, placenames and religious cult terms to discover the unity of African civilization. Diop (1981, 86) observed that:
"An undisputed linguistic relationship between two geographically remote groups of languages can be relevant for the study of migrations. A grammatical (or genetic) relationship if clear enough is never an accident".
As a result, Diop has used toponyms (place-names), anthroponyms (personal names) and ehthnonyms (names of ethnic groups/tribes) to explain the evidence of analogous ethnic (clan) names in West Africa and the Upper Nile (Diop 1991).
In Precolonial Black Africa, Diop used ethnonyms to chart the migrations of African people in West Africa. And in The African Origin of Civilization, Diop used analyses acculturaliste or typological analysis to study the origin and spread of African cultural features from the Nile Valley to West Africa through his examination of toponyms (Diop 1974, 182-183). In the Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Diop discussed the common totems and religious terms many African ethnic groups share (Diop 1978, 124).
LINGUISTIC TAXONOMY
This linguistic research has been based on linguistic classification or taxonomy. Linguistic taxonomy is the foundation upon which comparative and historical linguistic methods are based (Ruhlen 1994). Linguistic taxonomy is necessary for the identification of language families. The determination of language families give us the material to reconstruct the proto-language of a people and discover regular sound correspondences.
There are three major kinds of language classifications: genealogical, typological, and areal. A genealogical classifica-tion groups languages together into language families based on the shared features retained by languages since divergence from the common ancestor or proto-language. An areal classification groups languages into linguistic areas based on shared features acquired by a process of convergence arising from spatial proximity. A typological classification groups languages together into language types by the similarity in the appearance of the structure of languages without consideration of their historical origin and present, or past geographical distribution.
COMPARATIVE METHOD
Diop has used comparative and historical linguistics to illuminate the Unity of African civilization. Diop (1977, xxv) has noted that
"The process for the evolution of African languages is clearly apparent; from a far we (have) the idea that Wolof is descendant by direct filiation to ancient Egyptian, but the Wolof, Egyptian and other African languages (are) derived from a common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common African or the Negro- African of L. Homburger or of Th. Obenga."
The comparative method is used by linguists to determine the relatedness of languages, and to reconstruct earlier language states. The comparative linguist has two major goals (1) trace the history of language families and reconstruct the mother language of each family, and (2) determine the forces which affect language. In general, comparative linguists are interested in determining phonetic laws, analogy/ correspondence and loan words.
Diop is a strong supporter of the comparative method in the rediscovery of Paleo-African. The reconstruction of Paleo-African involves both reconstruction and recognition of regular sound correspondence. The goal of reconstruction is the discovery of the proto-language of African people is the recovery of Paleo-African:
(1) vowels and consonants
(2) specific Paleo-African words
(3) common grammatical elements; and
(4) common syntactic elements.
The comparative method is useful in the reconstruction of Proto-languages or Diop's Paleo-African. To reconstruct a proto-language the linguist must look for patterns of correspondences. Patterns of correspondence is the examination of terms which show uniformity. This uniformity leads to the inference that languages are related since uniformity of terms leads to the inference that languages are related since conformity of terms in two or more languages indicate they came from a common ancestor.
HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS
A person's language provides us with evidence of the elements of a group's culture. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about a group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologist make precise inferences about a groups culture elements.
Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.
LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY
The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.
Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant.(Diagne, 1981,p.238) The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.
African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items.(Diagne,1981, p.239) In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages.(Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1993)
The political stability of African political institutions has caused languages to change very slowly in Africa. Pawley and Ross (1993) argue that a sedentary life style may account for the conservative nature of a language.
African oral traditions and the eye witness accounts of travelers to Africa, make it clear that African empires although made up of diverse nationalities illustrated continuity. To accomodate the plural nature of African empires Africans developed a Federal system of government. (Niane , 1984) In fact we can not really describe ancient African state systems as empires, since this implies absolute rule or authority in a single individual. This political state of affairs rarely existed in ancient Africa, because in each African speech community local leadership was elected by the people within the community. (Diop, 1987) For example the Egyptians often appointed administrators over the conquered territories from among the conquered people. (Diop ,1991)
The continuity of many African languages may result from the steady state nature of African political systems, and long standing cultural stability since neolithic times. (Diop, 1991 ; Winters 1985) This cultural stability has affected the speed at which African languages change.
In Africa due to the relative stability of socio-political structures and settled life, there has not been enough pressure exerted on African societies as a whole and African speech communities in particular, to cause radical internal linguistic changes within most African languages. Permanent settlements led to a clearly defined system of inheritance and royal succession. These traits led to stability on both the social and political levels.
This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and
Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:
First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time.(pp.153-154)
There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms. He concluded that:
I would have said that on this evidence African languages are changing with glacial slowness, but it seems to me that in a century a glacier would have changed a lot more than that. Perhaps it would be more in order to say that these languages are changing with geological slowness. (Armstrong, 1962, p.285).
Diop's theory of linguistic constancy recognizes the social role language plays in African language change. Language being a variable phenomena has as much to do with a speaker's society as with the language itself. Thus social organization can influence the rate of change within languages. Meillet (1926, 17) wrote that:
Since language is a social institution it follows that linguistics is a social science, and the only variable element to which one may appeal in order to account for a linguistic change is social change, of which language variations are but the consequences.
THE BLACK AFRICAN ORIGIN OF EGYPT
Diop has contributed much to African linguistics. He was a major proponent of the Dravidian-African relationship (Diop 1974, 116), and the African substratum in Indo-European languages in relationship to cacuminal sounds and terms for social organiza-tion and culture (1974, 115). Diop (1978, 113) also recognized that in relation to Arabic words, after the suppression of the first consonant, there is often an African root.
Diop's major linguistic effort has been the classification of Black African and Egyptian languages . Up until 1977 Diop'smajor area of interest were morphological and phonological similarities between Egyptian and Black African languages. Diop (1977, 77-84) explains many of his sound laws for the Egyptian-Black African connection.
In Parènte Génétique de l'Egyptien pharraonique et des Langues Négro Africaines (PGEPLNA), Diop explains in some detail
his linguistic views in the introduction of this book. In PGEPLNA , Diop demonstrates the genetic relationship between ancient Egyptian and the languages of Black Africa. Diop provides thousands of cognate Wolof and Egyptian terms in support of his Black African-Egyptian linguistic relationship.
PALEO-AFRICAN
African languages are divided into Supersets (i.e., a family of genetically related languages, e.g., Niger-Congo) sets, and subsets. In the sets of African languages there are many parallels between phonological terms, eventhough there may be an arbitrary use of consonants which may have a similar sound. The reason for these changes is that when the speakers of Paleo-African languages separated, the various sets of languages underwent separate developments. As a result a /b/ sound in one language may be /p/ or /f/ in a sister language. For example, in African languages the word for father may be baba , pa or fa, while in the Dravidian languages we have appan to denote father.
Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about an ethnic group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologists make precise inferences about a linguistic group's cultural elements.
BLACKS IN WEST ASIA
In PGEPLNA Diop makes clear his views on the role of African languages in the rise of other languages. Using archaeological evidence Diop makes it clear that the original West Asians: Elamites and Sumerians were of Black origin (1974, 1977, xxix-xxxvii).
Diop (1974, 1991) advocates the unity of Black Africans
and Blacks in West Asia. Winters (1985,1989,1994) has elaborated on the linguistic affinity of African and West Asian languages.
This view is supported by linguistic evidence. For example these languages share demonstrative bases:
Proximate Distant Finite
Dravidian i a u
Manding i a u
Sumerian bi a
Wolof i a u
The speakers of West Asian and Black African languages also share basic culture items:
Chief city,village black,burnt
Dravidian cira, ca uru kam
Elamite Salu
Sumerian Sar ur
Manding Sa furu kami,"charcoal'
Nubia sirgi mar
Egyptian Sr mer kemit
Paleo-African *sar *uru *kam
OBENGA
Obenga (1978) gives a phonetic analysis of Black African and Egyptian. He illustrates the genetic affinity of consonants within the Black African (BA) and Egyptian languages especially the occlusive bilateral sonorous, the occlusive nasal apico-dental /n/ and /m/ , the apico-alveolar /r/ and the radical
proto-form sa: 'man, female, posterity' in Black Africa.
Language
Agaw asau, aso 'masculine
Sidama asu 'man'
Oromo asa id.
Caffino aso id.
Yoruba so 'produce'
Meroitic s' man
Fonge sunu id.
Bini eso 'someone'
Kikongo sa,se,si 'father'
Swahili (m)zee 'old person'
Egyptian sa 'man'
Manding si,se 'descendant,posterity,family'
Azer se 'individual, person'
Obenga (1978) also illustrated the unity between the verbs 'to come, to be, to arrive':
Language
Egyptian ii, ey Samo, Loma dye
Mbosi yaa Bisa gye
Sidama/Omo wa Wolof nyeu
Caffino wa Peul yah, yade
Yoruba wa Fonge wa
Bini ya Mpongwe bya
Manding ya,dya Swahili (Ku)ya
between t =/= d, highlight the alternation patterns of many Paleo-African consonants including b =/= p, l =/= r ,and
g =/= k.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
Galla senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'
In conclusion, Diop has done much to encourage the African recovery of their history. His theories on linguistics has inspired many African scholars to explain and elaborate the African role in the history of Africa and the world. This has made his work important to our understanding of the role of Black people in History.
REFERENCES
Armstrong,R.G. (1962). Glottochronology and African linguistics. Journal of African History,3(2), 283-290.
Baines, J. (1991, August 11). Was civilization made in Africa? The New York Times Review of Books, 12-13.
Bynon,T. (1978). Historical linguistics. London: Cambridge University Press.
Crawley,T. 1992. An Introduction to Historical Linguistics. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Delafosse,M. (1901). La Langue Mandigue. Paris.
Diagne,P. (1981). In J. Ki-Zerbo (Ed.), General history of Africa I: Methodology and African prehistory (233-260). London: Heinemann Educational Books Ltd.
Diop, C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality. Westport, Conn.:Lawrence Hill and Company.
Diop,C.A. (1977). Parentè gènètique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des languues Negro-Africaines. Dakar: Institut Fondamental d'Afrique Noire.
Diop, C.A. (1978). Precolonial Black Africa. Wesport, Conn. :Lawrence Hill and Company.
Diop, C.A. 1981. A methodology for the study of migrations. In African Ethnonyms and Toponyms, by UNESCO. (Unesco: Paris) 86--110.
Diop, C.A. (1991). Civilization or Barbarism. Brooklyn,N.Y.:
Lawrence Hill Books.
Dweyer, D.J. (1989). 2. Mande. In John Bendor-Samuel (Ed.), The Niger-Congo Languages (47-65). New York: University Press of America.
Ehret,C. (1988). Language change and the material correlates of language and ethnic shift. Antiquity, 62, 564-574.
Ehret,C. & Posnansky (Eds.). (1982). The Archaeological and linguistic reconstruction of African history. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Hock,H.H. (1988). Principles of historical linguistics. Amsterdam: Mouton de Gruyter.
Labov,W.(1965). The social motivation of a sound change. Word, 19, 273-309.
Labov.,W. (1972). The internal evolution of linguistic rules. In Stokwell,R.P. and Macaulay, R.K.S. (eds.) Linguistic change and generative theory (101-171). Bloomington: Indiana University Press.
Lefkowitz, M. (1992, February 10). Not out of Africa. The New Republic, 29-36.
Mbiti, J. S. 1970. African religions and Philosophy. Garden City: Anchor Press.
Meillet, A. 1926. Introduction à l'etude comparatif des languages Indo-Europeennes. Paris.
Moitt,B. (1989) Chiekh Anta Diop and the African diaspora: Historical continuity and socio-cultural symbolism. Presence Africaine, 149/150, 347-360.
Pawley,A. & Ross,M. (1993). Austronesian historical linguistics and culture history. Annual Review of Anthropology, 22, 425-459.
McIntosh, S. K. & McIntosh, R. (1983). Forgotten Tells of Mali. Expedition, 35-47.
Niane,D.T.(Ed.). (1984). Introduction. General History of Africa IV (1-14). London: Heinemann Educational Books.
Obenga,T. (1978). The genetic relationship between Egyptian (ancient Egyptian and Coptic) and modern African languages. In
UNESCO (Ed.), The peopling of ancient Egypt and the deciphering of the Meroitic script (65-72). Paris: UNESCO.
Obenga, T. (1993). Origine commune de l'Egyptien Ancien du Copte et des langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Editions L'Harmattan.
Lord,R. (1966). Comparative Linguistics. London: St. Paul's House.
Olderogge, L. (1981). Migrations and ethnic and linguistic differentiations. In J. Ki-Zerbo (Ed.),General History of Africa I: Methodology and African History (271-278). Paris: UNESCO.
Robins, R.H. (1974). General Linguistics. Bloomington: Indiana State University Press.
Ruhlen, M. 1994. The origin of language. New York: John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
Welmers, W. (1968). Niger Congo-Mande. In T.A. Sebeok (Ed.), Current Trends in Linguistics, 7,113-140.
Williams, B. (1987). The A-Group Royal Cemetery at Qustul:Cemetery L. Chicago: Oriental Institute, University of Chicago Press.
Winters,C.A. (1985). The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians.Tamil Civilization,3(1), 1-9.
Winters,C.A. (1986). The Migration routes of the Proto-Mande. The Mankind Quarterly,27(1), 77-96.
Winters, C.A. 1989. Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the genetic model. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18 (1), 98-127.
Winters, C.A. (1994). Afrocentrism:A valid frame of reference. Journal of Black Studies, 25 (2), 170-190.
Yurco,F. 1989. Were the ancient Egyptians Black? Biblical Archaeology.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Energy: Ancestors of Caribbean and AA's Built the Pyramids of Egypt. I know because they the ancestors said so. Anyone care to refute that?
which ancestors, and said what exactly?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Energy: Ancestors of Caribbean and AA's Built the Pyramids of Egypt. I know because they the ancestors said so. Anyone care to refute that?
which ancestors, and said what exactly?
In my case it was the people in my church who taught me the children of Ham were Black folk like me. Since Egypt was founded by descendants of Ham, it was only logical to grow up believing , and later confirming that my ancestors built the pyramids.
posted
I respect the Baja people but they were not part of the Egyptian Confederation. Historically the Baja people are an independent people who respect their freedom.
If they represent the Blymme people the earliest mention of the Beja people was in Buddhist text.
Egyptian documents make it clear that the Blymmes entered the area after the founding of Napatan and Meroitic civilization, so even if some people claim that the Beja=Blymmes this is conjecture. Consequently, even if Beja= Blymmes, they donot represent the Kushite people who founded the Napata and Meroe civilizations, because both the Noba and Blymmes entered Kush after its founding.
There is increasing evidence that the Beja may provide a key to fully understanding the Meroitic language. Some years ago I deciphered the Kharamadoye inscription.
…… Hrmdoye ne qor ene ariteñ lne mdes ne mni-t kene mk lebne ye re qe-ne q yi-t hl-ne y es bo he-ne q r lebne tro. S-ne ariteñ net er ek li s-ne d-b li lh ne q r kene qor ene mnpte.
This was heard already before 1670 years at a moment the Blemmyan King Kharamadoye drove his compatriots to a point of national statehood at the northern area of the then ailing Meroitic kingdom in what is today's Sudanese North and Egyptian South. Using Meroitic scripture, the scribes of Kharamadoye immortalized down to our times an inscription on walls of the Mandulis temple at Talmis (modern Kalabsha). The beginning of the inscription reads in a plausible English translation as follows:
Kharamadoye the monarch and chief of the living Ariteñ, the great son and patron of Amani, you (who) revitalizes (man). The lord's voyage of discovery indeed gives the creation of Good. Act (now Amani) he travels to support good. Make a good welfare swell (for) the offering of the Chief, (he) desires indeed the restoration of eminence. The patron of good Ariteñ bows in reverence (before Amani) to evoke exalted nourishment (for) the patrons to leave a grand and exalted legacy to behold good. Oh Amani make indeed (a) revitalization (of) the monarch (and) commander of Great Napata…..”
When I first saw this claim that the Beja, represented the Blemmyan people of the Meroitic and Egyptian inscriptions I thought it might be hollow indeed. But after comparing Meroitic to Beja, the claim has considerable merit.
What I found from this cursory examination was most interesting. I will need to gather more vocabulary items from Beja, but I did find a number of matches:
Meroitic ……English……….. Beja i ‘arrive at this point’ ………… bi ‘went’ t ‘he, she’ ……………………..ta ‘she’ ya ‘go’………………………….yak ‘start’ rit ‘look’……………………….rhitaa ‘you saw’ an(a) plural suffix……………..aan ‘these’ d(d) ‘say’………………………di(y) ‘say’ lb ‘energy, dynamic…………liwa ‘burn’ ken ‘to realize’……………….kana ‘to know’ bk ‘ripen’……………………..bishakwa ‘to be ripe’
The vocabulary items are interesting, but since they come from a grammar book there was not enough to provide an extensive comparison.
Meroitic and Beja share many grammatical features. For example, the pronouns are usually can be placed in front or at the end verbs e.g., Beja ti bi ‘she went’, Meroitic t-i ‘he goes’. In Beja, adi is used to indicate complete action Taman adi ‘I ate it completely’, Meroitic –a, serves the same purpose akin ne a ‘he has become completely learned’. In both languages the adverb is placed behind the noun Beja takii-da ‘small man’, Meroitic pt ‘praise’: pt es ‘manifest praise’. In Beja the future tense is form by ndi, Tami a ndi “I will eat’, Meroitic –n, s-ne yo-n Aman ‘The patron will bow in reverence to Aman’.
This makes it clear to me that the Beja language may be related to Meroitic and that the Beja represent the Blemmy nation of Old. But it does indicate that the Beja were not part of the Egyptian Confederation.
quote:Originally posted by Energy: Ancestors of Caribbean and AA's Built the Pyramids of Egypt. I know because they the ancestors said so. Anyone care to refute that?
which ancestors, and said what exactly?
My ancestors who wrote the TORAH recounted their experiences in Egypt in every detail. I believe everything written in the TORAH aka the five books of Moses.
In addition to the TORAH, in West Africa, we still have the exodus story as our main history and celebrate the exodus annually. Thus, by these actions we collaborate the exodus account in the Bible to be FACT and not fiction as some people like to think.
Image of my (Erverh aka Hebrew) people celebrating the Exodus in West AfricaPosts: 620 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
Jesus Predicted a First-Century Return Although Jesus did not know the “day and hour” of his return (Matt. 24:36), he knew it would take place before his generation had expired (v. 34). This clearly precludes a delay spanning two millennia or even a single century. In other words, the Second Coming of Christ must be an event in the past.
Matt. 10:23
Jesus instructed his disciples to hurry because the time for preaching before his return was relatively short:
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matt. 10:23, ESV throughout unless otherwise noted.)
This emphatic statement leaves no room for an enormous delay. It would certainly not have taken 2,000 years to reach the towns of Israel. Moreover, most of those towns had been destroyed by a.d. 70. So, Christ’s return must have occurred by that time. Matt. 16:27-28
Jesus knew the approximate time of his return and the Judgment. He guaranteed they would occur within the lifetime of his contemporaries:
27For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matt. 16:27–28)
(Some translations insert a paragraph break at verse 28. However, The Greek New Testament (UBS), on which most modern Bibles are based, does not.) Matt. 24:33-34
Responding to questions regarding signs to precede the destruction of the Temple (Matt. 24:3), Jesus emphatically declared the entire Olivet Prophecy would be fulfilled before his generation had passed:
33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matt. 24:33–34)
The very disciples to whom Jesus was speaking would see “all these things.” They were to regard them as signs that Jesus was “at the very gates.” The Temple was destroyed in a.d. 70. Therefore, the rest of “these things” must have taken place about the same time. They included the preaching of the gospel “throughout the whole world” (v. 14), the appearance of “the abomination of desolation” (v. 15), “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven” (v. 30) and the gathering of “his elect” (v. 31).This saying is puzzling—Jesus seems to have predicted that he would come again before the first generation of his disciples died out.
—NLT Study Bible (Carol Stream: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., 2008), Luke 21:32.
…he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.
—C. S. Lewis, The World’s Last Night and Other Essays (New York: Harcourt Brace & Company, 1973), 98.
Luke 21:22, 28, 31
Luke’s account of the Olivet Discourse reveals that the events surrounding the Temple’s destruction would mark the fulfillment of all Old Testament prophecy culminating in the Resurrection, Rapture and arrival of the Kingdom of God:
…these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. (Luke 21:22); …when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. (v. 28); …when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. (v. 31)
Rev. 1:3; 22:10
“The revelation of Jesus Christ” (Rev. 1:1) promised the persecuted first-century Christians that the fulfillment of the events predicted therein was “near”:
…the time is near (v. 3); Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. (ch. 22:10)
The time for the fulfillment of the prophecies was near.
John was not to seal up the prophecy because the time of fulfillment was near.
—William MacDonald and Arthur Farstad, Believer’s Bible Commentary (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1995), Rev. 1:3; 22:10.
The reason John is now told not to seal the book is that the time of its fulfillment is potentially very near.
—Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Commentary, Rev. 22:10.
Conclusion
Clearly, Jesus did predict a first-century return.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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You lost me there. I don't see how what you posted has anything to do with the true builders of the pyramids of Egypt, which is what this thread is about.
quote:Originally posted by Energy: Lioness did you post in the wrong thread?
You lost me there. I don't see how what you posted has anything to do with the true builders of the pyramids of Egypt, which is what this thread is about.
Revelations as per slavery may have already played out. A slave laborer is not an Imhotep. If a Syrian or Nubian was captured and put to work hauling stones it doesn't mean they had anything to do with the design of a pyramid, the basic purpose of which was a huge ego trip for the king to go die in with his bling.
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Show me in the Bible where it says the Hebrews/Jews built the Pyramids..
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Show me in the Bible where it says the Hebrews/Jews built the Pyramids..
The following from Exodus 5 shows who was doing all the building work in Egypt.
6 So the same day Pharaoh commanded the taskmasters over the people and their foremen, saying, 7 “You are no longer to give the people straw to make brick as previously; let them go and gather straw for themselves. 8 But the quota of bricks which they were making previously, you shall impose on them; you are not to reduce any of it. Because they are lazy, therefore they cry out, ‘Let us go and sacrifice to our God.’ 9 Let the labor be heavier on the men, and let them work at it so that they will pay no attention to false words.”
10 So the taskmasters of the people and their foremen went out and spoke to the people, saying, “Thus says Pharaoh, ‘I am not going to give you any straw. 11 You go and get straw for yourselves wherever you can find it, but none of your labor will be reduced.’” 12 So the people scattered through all the land of Egypt to gather stubble for straw. 13 The taskmasters pressed them, saying, “Complete your work quota, your daily amount, just as when you had straw.” 14 Moreover, the foremen of the sons of Israel, whom Pharaoh’s taskmasters had set over them, were beaten and were asked, “Why have you not completed your required amount either yesterday or today in making brick as previously?”
15 Then the foremen of the sons of Israel came and cried out to Pharaoh, saying, “Why do you deal this way with your servants? 16 There is no straw given to your servants, yet they keep saying to us, ‘Make bricks!’ And behold, your servants are being beaten; but it is the fault of your own people.” 17 But he said, “You are lazy, very lazy; therefore you say, ‘Let us go and sacrifice to the LORD.’ 18 So go now and work; for you will be given no straw, yet you must deliver the quota of bricks.” 19 The foremen of the sons of Israel saw that they were in trouble because they were told, “You must not reduce your daily amount of bricks.”Posts: 620 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2009
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I asked you where does it say the Hebrew/jews built the Pyramids..Let me help you, this is what the Bible says the Jews built...
quote:10“Come, let us deal wisely with them, or else they will multiply and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those who hate us, and fight against us and depart from the land.” 11So they appointed taskmasters over them to afflict them with hard labor. And they built for Pharaoh storage cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and the more they spread out, so that they were in dread of the sons of Israel. 13The Egyptians compelled the sons of Israel to labor rigorously; 14and they made their lives bitter with hard labor in mortar and bricks and at all kinds of labor in the field, all their labors which they rigorously imposed on them.
So I will ask you again where does the Bible say the Jews built the Pyramids. I hope you are not lying and makng stuff up..
where is it??
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You mean you can't comprehend what you are reading? Where in the Bible does it mention a Pyramid? Just asking in case you are not aware; the word "PYRAMID" is a modern term for the structures of AE. In those days they were not called pyramids. Thus because the word Pyramid does not appear in the Bible does not mean that is not what the Hebrews were constructing.
Anyway the following is some more from Exodus 14
5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, “What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!” 6 So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. 7 He took six hundred of the best chariots, along with all the other chariots of Egypt, with officers over all of them. 8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. 9 The Egyptians—all Pharaoh’s horses and chariots, horsemen and troops—pursued the Israelites and overtook them as they camped by the sea near Pi Hahiroth, opposite Baal Zephon.
Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.
Some writers suppose that beside these cities the Israelites built the pyramids. If this conjecture be well founded, perhaps they are intended in the word מסכנות miscenoth, which, from סכן sachan, to lay up in store, might be intended to signify places where Pharaoh laid up his treasures; and from their structure they appear to have been designed for something of this kind. If the history of the pyramids be not found in the book of Exodus, it is nowhere else extant; their origin, if not alluded to here, being lost in their very remote antiquity. Diodorus Siculus, who has given the best traditions he could find relative to them, says that there was no agreement either among the inhabitants or the historians concerning the building of the pyramids - Bib. Hist., lib. 1., cap. lxiv.
Josephus expressly says that one part of the oppression suffered by the Israelites in Egypt was occasioned by building pyramids. See Clarke's note on Exodus 1:14.
hundred years. Genesis 47:11 So Joseph settled his father and his brothers in Egypt and gave them property in the best part of the land, the district of Rameses, as Pharaoh directed. Exodus 1:14 They made their lives bitter with hard labor in brick and mortar and with all kinds of work in the fields; in all their hard labor the Egyptians used them ruthlessly.
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The only person who can't comprehend is you. Your ranting about the Pyramid being a modern term is baseless considering the Torah tells exactly what the Jews supposedly built, Storage Cities....Pithom and Pi-Raamses...the Pyramids were build thousands of years before Pi-Ramsees was built.
You are a liar, driven by an inferiority complex.
You're dismissed..
quote:10“Come, let us deal wisely with them, or else they will multiply and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those who hate us, and fight against us and depart from the land.” 11So they appointed taskmasters over them to afflict them with hard labor. And they built for Pharaoh storage cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and the more they spread out, so that they were in dread of the sons of Israel. 13The Egyptians compelled the sons of Israel to labor rigorously; 14and they made their lives bitter with hard labor in mortar and bricks and at all kinds of labor in the field, all their labors which they rigorously imposed on them.
quote:Originally posted by Energy: You mean you can't comprehend what you are reading...blah blah
[/i]
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^^^ Translation: I can't provide evidence of the Jews building the Pyramids, I admit defeat.
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^ No BONEHEAD, I already explained to you the word Pyramid does not appear in the Bible. But due to the fact you need to be spoon fed like a baby to comprehend the obvious. You still can't get what I said.
posted
according to the Bible the Jamicans may have worked on the pyramids but no one knows for sure
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But Lioness we have enough from the Bible to tell us who were the WORKFORCE in AE and the ancestors of Jamaicans were well in the middle of the action for 400 plus years.
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quote:10“Come, let us deal wisely with them, or else they will multiply and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those who hate us, and fight against us and depart from the land.” 11So they appointed taskmasters over them to afflict them with hard labor. And they built for Pharaoh storage cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and the more they spread out, so that they were in dread of the sons of Israel. 13The Egyptians compelled the sons of Israel to labor rigorously; 14and they made their lives bitter with hard labor in mortar and bricks and at all kinds of labor in the field, all their labors which they rigorously imposed on them.
This is directly from Torah...
And they built for Pharaoh storage cities, Pithom and Raamses.
That's what the Jews supposedly built, last I checked the Pyramids were not Storage Cities. Plus "Raames" aka Pi-Raamese was built thousands of years after the Pyramids.
No room for you to wiggle and squirm your way out of this one...
This just proves how dishonest you are.
You're dismissed...
quote:Originally posted by Energy: ^ No BONEHEAD, I already explained to you the word Pyramid does not appear in the Bible. But due to the fact you need to be spoon fed like a baby to comprehend the obvious. You still can't get what I said.
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^ Oh dear! What does it take to make you comprehend the Hebrews lived in AE for 400 plus years? Therefore, stop quoting what the first king who put them in bondage asked them to build. Common sense should tell you they moved on to other projects and did not spend 400 years constructing the chicken shed.
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Dude please do some basic research. The Pyramids were not built 400 yrs before Pi-Raamses became the capital. They were build in the Old Kingdom again thousands of years before there was a such thing as a Hebrew. Abraham's Grandfather's Great Grandfather was swimming in his fathers scrotum when the Nile Valley Africans erected the Pyramids without slave labor.
The only thing the Jews ever built was Solomon's temple an ant pile compared to the temples in the Nile Valley let alone compared to the Pyramids.
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Dude please do some basic research. The Pyramids were not built 400 yrs before Pi-Raamses became the capital. They were build in the Old Kingdom again thousands of years before there was a such thing as a Hebrew. Abraham's Grandfather's Great Grandfather was swimming in his fathers scrotum when the Nile Valley Africans erected the Pyramids without slave labor.
The only thing the Jews ever built was Solomon's temple and ant pile compared to the temples in the Nile Valley let alone compared to the Pyramids.
quote:Originally posted by Energy: [QB] ^ Oh dear! What does it take to make you comprehend the Hebrews lived in AE for 400 plus years?
what were the approximate dates of this?
The following is from Genesis 15:13.
“And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years”
Start and end years are not mentioned.
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^^^^ Translation: I can't provide evidence the Jews built the Pyramids, hell I can't even provide and hard evidence the Jews built anything in Km.t out side my bronze age fairytale book..
I tried to squirm but Jari the Mighty Bull has crushed me...
..........
Then his majesty prevailed against them at the head of his army, and when they saw his majesty prevailing against them they fled headlong to Megiddo in fear, abandoning their horses and their chariots of gold and silver.
when the wretched foe of Kadesh and the wretched foe of this city were hauled up in haste to bring them into this city. The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, their arms were powerless, his serpent diadem was victorious among them.
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^^ What is wrong with you? Can you go back and read AGAIN what Lioness posted on Josephus and what he said regarding what the Hebrews did in AE?
Exodus 1:14 They made their lives bitter with hard labor in brick and mortar and with all kinds of work in the fields; in all their hard labor the Egyptians used them ruthlessly.
You have been served stop sulking like a petulant child.
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We have hard evidence that the people who built the Pyramids were not Slaves. This is common knowledge. Josephus was nothing but an Ignorant Jew who knew nothing about the Nile Valley, trying to steal a culture that had nothing to do with him...
INTRODUCTION TO PYRAMIDS
Kings of the Dead | Tombs Fit for Kings | Who Built the Pyramids?
During Egypt's Old Kingdom (time line), the pharaohs established a stable central government in the fertile Nile Valley. Perhaps the greatest testaments to their power were the pyramids and other tombs built to shelter them in the afterlife.
Kings of the Dead
Ancient Egyptians believed that when the pharaoh died, he became Osiris, king of the dead. The new pharaoh became Horus, god of the heavens and protector of the sun god. This cycle was symbolized by the rising and setting of the sun.
Some part of a dead pharaoh's spirit, called his ka, was believed to remain with his body. And it was thought that if the corpse did not have proper care, the former pharaoh would not be able to carry out his new duties as king of the dead. If this happened, the cycle would be broken and disaster would befall Egypt.
To prevent such a catastrophe, each dead pharaoh was mummified, which preserved his body. Everything the king would need in his afterlife was provided in his grave—vessels made of clay, stone, and gold, furniture, food, even doll-like representations of servants, known as ushabti. His body would continue to receive food offerings long after his death.
[TOP]
Tombs Fit for Kings
To shelter and safeguard the part of a pharaoh's soul that remained with his corpse, Egyptians built massive tombs—but not always pyramids.
Before the pyramids, tombs were carved into bedrock and topped by flat-roofed structures called mastabas. Mounds of dirt, in turn, sometimes topped the structures.
The pyramid shape of later tombs could have come from these mounds. More likely, Egyptian pyramids were modeled on a sacred, pointed stone called the benben. The benben symbolized the rays of the sun; ancient texts claimed that pharaohs reached the heavens via sunbeams.
[TOP]
quote:Who Built the Pyramids?
Contrary to some popular depictions, the pyramid builders were not slaves or foreigners. Excavated skeletons show that they were Egyptians who lived in villages developed and overseen by the pharaoh's supervisors.
The builders' villages boasted bakers, butchers, brewers, granaries, houses, cemeteries, and probably even some sorts of health-care facilities—there is evidence of laborers surviving crushed or amputated limbs. Bakeries excavated near the Great Pyramids could have produced thousands of loaves of bread every week.
Some of the builders were permanent employees of the pharaoh. Others were conscripted for a limited time from local villages. Some may have been women: Although no depictions of women builders have been found, some female skeletons show wear that suggests they labored with heavy stone for long periods of time.
Graffiti indicates that at least [/b]some of these workers took pride in their work, calling their teams "Friends of Khufu," "Drunkards of Menkaure,"[/b] and so on—names indicating allegiances to pharaohs. [/i]
[quote]The question of who labored to build them, and why, has long been part of their fascination. Rooted firmly in the popular imagination is the idea that the pyramids were built by slaves serving a merciless pharaoh. This notion of a vast slave class in Egypt originated in Judeo-Christian tradition and has been popularized by Hollywood productions like Cecil B. De Mille’s The Ten Commandments, in which a captive people labor in the scorching sun beneath the whips of pharaoh’s overseers. But graffiti from inside the Giza monuments themselves have long suggested something very different.
Until recently, however, the fabulous art and gold treasures of pharaohs like Tutankhamen have overshadowed the efforts of scientific archaeologists to understand how human forces—perhaps all levels of Egyptian society—were mobilized to enable the construction of the pyramids. Now, drawing on diverse strands of evidence, from geological history to analysis of living arrangements, bread-making technology, and animal remains, Egyptologist Mark Lehner, an associate of Harvard’s Semitic Museum, is beginning to fashion an answer. He has found the city of the pyramid builders. They were not slaves.
quote:Egypt tombs suggest free men built pyramids, not slaves Egyptian archaeology workers dig tombs in front of the Great Pyramid in Giza, Egypt The tombs were found near Egypt's great pyramids
Tombs discovered near Egypt's great pyramids reinforce the theory they were built by free workers rather than slaves.
The location of the tombs, where workers who built the pyramids of Khufu (Cheops) and Khafre (Chephren) are buried, suggests they were not slaves.
The tombs, made from bricks of dried mud, date back 4,500 years.
They are the first to be discovered since the first such workers' tombs were found in 1990.
"These tombs were built beside the king's pyramid, which indicates these people were not by any means slaves," Zahi Hawass, the chief archaeologist heading the Egyptian excavation team, said in a statement.
"If they were slaves, they would not have been able to build their tombs beside their king's."
Evidence from the site indicated the approximately 10,000 workers who built the pyramids had eaten 21 cattle and 23 sheep sent to them daily from farms in the Delta and Upper Egypt, said Dr Hawass.
This would suggest the farmers who sent the animals were not paying their taxes to the Egyptian government, but were sharing in one of Egypt's national projects, he added.
The workers were employed for three-month stints, and the tombs, which date from the 4th and 5th Dynasties (2649-2374 BC), were for those who died during construction.
The authorities have long fought what they call the "myth" of slaves building the pyramids, saying it undermines the skill involved in their construction, and the sophistication of ancient Egypt's civilisation.
1) No where does Torah say the Egyptians built the Pyramids..
2) Direct evidence proves Native free Egyptians built the Pyramids..
3) Pi-Raames(The Structure the Jews lied and claimed they built) was built thousands of years after the Pyramids..
You're dismissed...
Then his majesty prevailed against them at the head of his army, and when they saw his majesty prevailing against them they fled headlong to Megiddo in fear, abandoning their horses and their chariots of gold and silver.
when the wretched foe of Kadesh and the wretched foe of this city were hauled up in haste to bring them into this city. The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, their arms were powerless, his serpent diadem was victorious among them.
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^^ Oh I see, I now understand how your pea-brain works! Eyewitness accounts don't matter to you. If it is not sanctioned by the great white man's OPINION, it must be a lie.
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LOL, How Ironic. First off it was the white man who popularized the bullshit Idea that the low life Jew built the Pyramids, now you wanna bitch when the evidence proves your fairy tale book wrong.
Josephus was not an eye witness to the building of the Pyramids, and once again no where in the Torah does is say the Jews build the Pyramids, they build Pi-Raamses according to Torah, the Delta Capital built by Ramses in the 19th Dynasty, for gods sake. The Pyramids were built during the 3rd-11th Dynasties, the Great Pyramids during the 4th Dynasty.
Do the math, all the evidence except some Ignorant jew points to the Pyramids being built by Free Natives.
You lost, provide evidence or shut up.
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It's ironic that Energy wants to take pride in what the Bible would have described as (if it mentioned them) monuments tributing the slavemasters
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As I said the BHI/Black Hebrew cult or what ever they call themselves is nothing but a coping mechanism for slavery by people with an inferiority complex. They wanna sit up an claim African achievements and at the same time claim to be Jews.
SMH..
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: LOL, How Ironic. First off it was the white man who popularized the bullshit Idea that the low life Jew built the Pyramids, now you wanna bitch when the evidence proves your fairy tale book wrong.
Josephus was not an eye witness to the building of the Pyramids, and once again no where in the Torah does is say the Jews build the Pyramids, they build Pi-Raamses according to Torah, the Delta Capital built by Ramses in the 19th Dynasty, for gods sake. The Pyramids were built during the 3rd-11th Dynasties, the Great Pyramids during the 4th Dynasty.
Do the math, all the evidence except some Ignorant jew points to the Pyramids being built by Free Natives.
You lost, provide evidence or shut up.
Really? What evidence? You mean whitey's FICKLE SPECULATIONS? I don't remember quoting any fickle SPECULATIVE thoughts of whitey to prove my point? You did that. So quit telling me about evidence. From where I stand you aint got any worth considering.
I quoted from the eye-witness accounts my black ancestors wrote and left. That is what I believe. Not your MASTERS fickle speculations.
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The real Irony is that the Torah Writers had the nerve to call Canaanites "Servant of Servants" when even in their own book the Hebrews were the Punching bag of the Levant, the Real "Servant of Servants" in history.
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: As I said the BHI/Black Hebrew cult or what ever they call themselves is nothing but a coping mechanism for slavery by people with an inferiority complex. They wanna sit up an claim African achievements and at the same time claim to be Jews.
SMH..
Your ROOTS are showing again. Why are you so THICK? BHI huh? Learn to look outside the box bro. There is a big wide world outside of your tunnel vision. BHI are a religious cult. I don't believe in them I don't belong to them. Deal with my ethnicity which is ERVERH aka HEBERW and cut the crap with your BHI religious cult BS.
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If this was an official debate you would have lost a long time ago. Now all you can do is rant your emotional "Poisoning the Wells" fallacy arguments talking about the white man this and that.
Show me in Torah where the Jews built the Pyramids..
Put up or shut up, you sound like a child throwing a fit because he can't get what he wants.
quote:Originally posted by Energy: Really? What evidence? You mean whitey's FICKLE SPECULATIONS? I don't remember quoting any fickle SPECULATIVE thoughts of whitey to prove my point? You did that. So quit telling me about evidence. From where I stand you aint got any worth considering.
I quoted from the eye-witness accounts my black ancestors wrote and left. That is what I believe. Not your MASTERS fickle speculations.
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Energy man up, even if you claim that Moses' people did all the labor you can't pin down the 400 year period to that of the pyramid building period. Also keeping in mind their population started with 70 people, immigrants from Canaan
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^Yeah Lioness, but the Bible tells us before going into bondage they had multiplied exponentially. Enough to make the Egyptians look upon them with dread. Judging from the Biblical account by the time they started servitude to the Egyptians, they may have numbered in the thousands.
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