The controversy revolves around a radical, rebel Ethiopian Nun Saint Woletta Petros from the 17th century who fought the holy war against Catholic conversion being forced on the Ethiopian people. Here is the abstract from an Ethiopian scholar, who forcefully rejects the LGBTQ interpretation of the saint's life: Journal of Afroasiatic Studies
"The Hagiography of Ethiopian Saint Woletta Petros was recently translated from Ge’ez into English by Wendy Belcher and Michael Kleiner. Belcher has no knowledge of Ge’ez and simple errors in the translation suggest that Kleiner lacks the fluency required to accurately interpret the language. A western lens with a deliberate distortion of the facts has been applied to the text, using contemporary western understandings of marriage and monastic life to interpret a 17th century Ethiopian nun.
Contemporary ethnic politics have been inserted into the interpretation in a way that reproduces negative racial binaries, and relies heavily on the colonial racialization of African identities and western color prejudice that does not exist in Ethiopia. This has resulted in a colonial rewrite of one of Ethiopia’s most holy books. Belcher represents Woletta Petros as a violent, diseased and lustful nun, reproducing racist stereotypes about black women. Sexual scenes and a same-sex partnership between nuns have been inserted into the text where they do not exist in the Ge’ez original. ....
Major universities, as important sites of knowledge production, should not contribute to racial prejudices and distortions of African history by supporting projects that are carried out by scholars who deliberately exclude or distort the voices and experiences of local people. This article seeks to prompt a change in the writing of African history, where the agency of black people to narrate their own histories and experiences is respected and supported."
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^ Not surprising. Just that three word title alone 'Western Feminist Academic' automatically equates to perversion. It's Western feminist academics who deceive and brainwash women of non-Western cultures and non-white ethnicities into accepting their dysfunction and degeneracy. It were these female Marxist agents that brought anti-male, radical feminism into the black community and ruined male-female relationships in the black community, and are doing the same in the Latino community today. They're also trying to make headway into the Asian community as well.
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I think they have fully conquered Black feminist ideology. The nonsensical Black men ain't shit attitude of many Black academics is frankly embarrassing.
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Controversy has attended the English translation of the Gädlä Wälättä P̣eṭros, starting in October 2014 after one of the cotranslators, Belcher, started giving talks about the saint's relationship with Eheta Kristos and due to news coverage of the translation
In 2005 The Russian historian, Teacher of Classical Ethiopic, Sevir Chernetsov (who also died in 2005) published a now hard to find article in Khristianski Vostok magazine (Journal of the Christian East). arguing that Walatta Petros was a non-gender-conforming saint entitled:
"A Transgressor of the Norms of Female Behaviour in the Seventeenth-Century Ethiopia: The Heroine of the Life of Our Mother Walatta Petros"
I'm not sure what was in that article what the transgressions were wikipedia says " non-gender-conforming saint."
Guardian 2015
Earliest known biography of an African woman translated to English for the first time
Ethiopian noblewoman Walatta Petros left her husband to stop the spread of Roman Catholicism, possibly fell in love with a fellow nun and was elevated to sainthood
The earliest known book-length biography of an African woman, a 17th-century text detailing the life of the Ethiopian saint Walatta Petros, has been translated into English for the first time.
Walatta Petros was an Ethiopian religious leader who lived from 1592 to 1642. A noblewoman, she left her husband to lead the struggle against the Jesuits’ mission to convert Ethiopian Christians to Roman Catholicism. It was for this that the Ethiopian Orthodox Täwaḥədo Church elevated her to sainthood.
Walatta Petros’s story was written by her disciples in the Gəˁəz language in 1672, after her death. Translator and editor Wendy Laura Belcher, an associate professor at Princeton University, came across the biography while she was studying Samuel Johnson’s translation, A Voyage to Abyssinia.
I knew then I wouldn’t rest until I had translated this priceless work into English.”
Belcher learned Gəˁəz in order to translate Walatta Petros’s biography, working first with the Ethiopian priest, and then with the translator Michael Kleiner.
It has only been translated into two other languages before: Amharic and Italian, the latter in the 1970s.
While researching the text, Belcher discovered that the biography contained the earliest known depiction of same-sex desire among women in sub-Saharan Africa, an element she said was “censored” from the manuscript that the 1970s Italian edition was based on.
Belcher writes in the book’s preface that while she and Kleiner were translating the story from the Italian edition, they came across a “perplexing anecdote about a number of community members dying because some nuns had pushed each other around”. Kleiner suspected the manuscript had “been miscopied, perhaps deliberately, in order to censor the original, or merely by accident”, and speculated that “the nuns were not fighting but flirting with each other”.
After consulting with several Ethiopian scholars and looking at digitised copies of the original manuscripts, Kleiner and Belcher found the uncensored manuscript concurred. They translated the line as Petros seeing “some young nuns pressing against each other and being lustful with each other, each with a female companion.”
Identifying them as lesbians would be “anachronistic” partly because Walatta Petros was “deeply committed to celibacy”, she told the Guardian.
“Many Ethiopians are quite upset about my comments about the saint, my interpretations of her relationship with Eheta Kristos,” she said. “Part of this upset is due to not understanding my point. I think she was a sincere, celibate nun, but that she also felt desire for other women and that she was in a life-long celibate partnership with Eheta Kristos.”
_____________________________________
This book was made for trouble being the first to translate this text into English
"While researching the text, Belcher discovered that the biography contained the earliest known depiction of same-sex desire among women in sub-Saharan Africa, an element she said was “censored” from the manuscript that the 1970s Italian edition was based on."
So the Guardian published this like it was a fact when it is speculation but I still don't know why this has resurfaced in 2020.
I haven't read the long rebuttal yet in the Journal of Afroasiatic Studies by Yirga Gelaw Woldeyes.
I don't think all this stuff needs to be blamed on feminism but I would call of perhaps lacking in taste to the author Wendy Laura Belcher to bring out this ambiguous speculation on lesbian attraction and for the first time this test is translated that she allowed this to be the focal point in this publicity rather than Walatta Petros historical importance in being a an Ethiopian Orthodox resister to Catholic conversion attempts.
I don't blame the church for getting mad about it and scholars but it's already 2020, I hope some Ethiopian scholar is going to come out with their own English translation
I wouldn't say Belcher's claims are impossible but I don't think that should have been hyped as "the earliest known depiction of same-sex desire among women in sub-Saharan Africa".
And even if it is true it doesn't even fit into traditional Africa culture since this is 17th century Christianity
"possibly fell in love with a fellow nun " that is like tabloid rumor being interjected in what was supposed to be a scholarly translation. (I'm sure it helped sell the book)
Maybe one good byproduct of this is more people are now aware of who Walatta Petros was.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Not surprising. Just that three word title alone 'Western Feminist Academic' automatically equates to perversion.
Are you saying all Western feminists are lesbians and lesbians are perverts?
Wendy Laura Belcher is not regarded as a Feminist Academic look at her works
Wendy Laura Belcher is a professor of African literature at Princeton University with a joint appointment in the Department of Comparative Literature and the Department of African American Studies.
In the "About" section she writes:
Prof. Belcher’s rearch interests include African language literature (especially that in Gəˁəz, Amharic, Hausa), Anglophone African literature, Francophone African literature, early African literature, African film, African women authors, history of the African book, African manuscript cultures, African female saints, and queer African studies; as well as race and gender in eighteenth-century English literature, comparative African and European studies, postcolonial literature, post-war British drama, modern lyric poetry, Chicana/o literature, African American literature, comparative hagiographies, gender and sexuality, memoir, indirection and censorship, travel literature, manuscript studies, prison literature, women’s intellectual autobiography, and supernatural monsters.
____________________________
In her interests she includes queer African studies; as well as race and gender in eighteenth-century English literature,
However if you look at her career and what she has written she is not as a "Feminist Academic" she is professor of African literature at Princeton and is not regarded as a Feminist writer or an LGBTQ writer. The word "feminist" is not even on her website except for a few bibliography mentions. Compare that to actual feminist academics
This is the faculty of the GSS Progam in Gender and Sexuality Studies, she is not in it
This has resulted in a colonial rewrite of one of Ethiopia’s most holy books. Belcher represents Woletta Petros as a violent, diseased and lustful nun, reproducing racist stereotypes about black women. Sexual scenes and a same-sex partnership between nuns have been inserted into the text where they do not exist in the Ge’ez original. ....
This is BS. Wendy Laura Belcher is an advocate of African literature
Woletta Petros may or may not have been a violent, diseased and lustful nun as an individual but to try to make that "reproducing racist stereotypes about black women"
>> is to reproduce racist stereotypes about black women and say that any discussion of a historical figure that is not entirely complimentary is "reproducing racist stereotypes about black women"
that is a manipulation regardless of whether or not Wendy Laura Belcher is right or not about Woletta Petros.
Early African Literature: An Anthology of Written Texts from 3000 BCE to 1900 CE
Contrary to the general perception, the African literatures written before the twentieth century are substantial. Whatever limits can be imagined—in terms of geography, genre, language, audience, era—these literatures exceed them. Before the twentieth century, Africans wrote not just in Europe, but also on the African continent; they wrote not just in European languages, but in African languages; they wrote not just for European consumption, but for their own consumption; they wrote not just in northern Africa, but in sub-Saharan Africa; they wrote not just orally, but textually; they wrote not just historical or religious texts, but poetry and epic and autobiography; and they wrote not just in the nineteenth century, but in the eighteenth century and long, long before.
Yet, the general public and even scholars of African literature are often unaware of these early literatures, mistakenly believing that African literature starts in the late 1950s as the result of colonization,
Finally, scholars used to think that the languages of East Africa evolved in the Middle East and then migrated to Africa. Yet, more recent scholarship suggests that the Afro-Asiatic languages spoken in East and North Africa as well as the Middle East and South Asia originate from a proto-language of East Africa. That is, from the eighth to the sixth millennium BCE, the ancient language of East African peoples began to differentiate, eventually evolving into hundreds of Afro-Asiatic languages, including Hebrew, Arabic, Egyptian, Berber, and Hausa. Thus, as the biogeographer Jared Diamond expressed it, “Africa gave birth to the languages spoken by the authors of the Old and New Testament and the Koran, the moral pillars of Western civilization.”
Just as scholars are finding that Africans were among the earliest agricultural and linguistic innovators, so are scholars finding that they were among the earliest artistic innovators as well. It is also important to remember how many words in English are originally from African languages: such as canoe and tamboureen. Few of the texts in this volume were written originally in English; but in Arabic, Latin, Portuguese, Gəˁəz, Coptic, and even French, German (?), Italian (?),Dutch(?), and Afrikaans (?).
______________________
^^ there is a lot more at the link
This woman has done a lot of important work documenting African literature and you want to throw that all out because you hate lesbians and think all historical African figures should have perfect backgrounds like Trump doesn't want to know about Thomas Jefferson's slave holdings.
This controversy goes back to 2015 when Wendy Laura Belcher came out with her book on Woletta Petros and was doing lectures about her. I don't know how this has picked up talked in 2020.
Controversy over Sexuality in the Gadla Walatta Petros
In October 2014, a controversy over sexuality and the Ethiopian woman saint Walatta Petros emerged after I, Dr. Wendy Laura Belcher, began giving talks at US universities about her. This controversy emerges from time to time, with misinformation about my position spread online, so I created this page to aid those members of the general public who are interested in understanding the matters at the heart of the controversy. To make things clear about who did what, I’ve put myself in the third person below.
(Scholars should instead read my full-length article on the topic which appeared in Research in African Literatures. It discusses the different reading protocols required—merging surface and symptomatic reading, as well as attending to Ethiopian authorial and interpretive practices—for interpreting these texts, protocols for which queer theory provides useful warnings and tools.)
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Lustful Nuns
The Gädlä Wälättä P̣eṭros plainly depicts a scene of Walatta Petros witnessing nuns being lustful with each other. Many scholars who read Gəˁəz, both Ethiopian and European, have agreed that the English translation of this sentence as it appears in The Life and Struggles of Our Mother Walatta Petros is correct. This scene shows that desire between members of the same sex is not a recent Western import to Ethiopia but existed in Ethiopia before the twentieth century. See below for detailed information about the English translation of this sentence.
Walatta Petros’s Female Partner
The Gädlä Wälättä P̣eṭros plainly depicts the friendship of Walatta Petros and a woman named Eheta Kristos (Ǝḫətä Krəstos). They became friends when they were first starting out as nuns and they remained dear friends for the next twenty five years, leading Walatta Petros’s community together. Many scenes depict the women discussing their lives, eating together, traveling to dozens of places together, reading to each other, taking care of each other when sick, and making decisions together.
In her talks, Belcher has said that this friendship was not sexual (the two women did not have sex with each other), but that they were life partners. Belcher has stated that it is unlikely that Walatta Petros and Eheta Kristos had sex with each other because these two women were nuns devoted (1) to celibacy and (2) to an extreme asceticism that denied all pleasures of the flesh. Although Belcher has repeatedly stated that the two women were life partners who did not have sex, many Ethiopians have sexualized the matter and accused her of depicting the celibate saint as in an ongoing sexual relationship. These false accusations have to do with current Ethiopian politics around LGBTIQA issues rather than the translation.
more at link
_______________________________________ .
.
Homosexuality in Ethiopia
Male and female same-sex sexual activity is illegal in Ethiopia. Homosexuality and sodomy were initially criminalized after the Kingdom of Aksum and laws were adopted from the Solomonic dynasty in thirteenth century.
At around of 1240, the Coptic Egyptian Christian writer Abul Fada'il Ibn al-'Assal complied a legal code known as Fetha Nagast. Written in Ge'ez language, Ibn al-'Assal referred his laws from apostolic writer and former laws of Byzantine Empire.
Article 630 defines the punishments into two ways:
1. The punishment shall be imprisonment for not less than one year, or, in certain grave cases, rigorous imprisonment not exceeding ten years.[1]
2. The punishment shall be rigorous imprisonment from three years to fifteen years.
In December 2008, nearly a dozen Ethiopian religious figures (including the leader of Ethiopian Muslims and the heads of the Orthodox, Protestant and Catholic churches) adopted a resolution against homosexuality, urging Ethiopian lawmakers to endorse a ban on homosexual activity in the constitution.[10] This included Ethiopian Catholic Archbishop Berhaneyesus Demerew Souraphiel.
Many LGBTQ members in the country live in fear of being persecuted or jailed. Most of them have opted to flee the country
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I am not anti-feminist, but white feminists can sometimes be the worst on racial issues. They claim to be allies of women of color, but in my experience, they have a problem with acting like they represent marginalized people better than marginalized people themselves. This Belcher character sounds like she suffers from the same underlying problem.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
For the MansaMusa Djehuti & 1/3African conversation
Two old married Senegalese men are walking holding hands down 116th St. Are they gay? To the Blacks seeing them and shouting: Don't hold hands! Different perspectives on homosexuality, one sees handholding as sexual.
For centuries no Africans saw no lesbianism in the subject document. Any African agreement? I'd like to see it posted here. Maybe it exists. Africans are the authorities on things African. Afr ppl aren't objects for Europeans to shape and mold as they please with their social breeze of the moment. Where's the centuries old Ethiopian Orthodox tradition of randy Lesbo nuns? That graphic novel soft core porn crap is European in origin and did European coventries even ever have it?
quote:Yirga Gelaw Woldeyes @YirgaGelaw The Life and Struggle of #WalattaPetros by Belcher and Kleiner is a distortion of #BlackHistory. It’s intellectually dishonest & ethically questionable. It reproduces colonial stereotypes of Africans as sexualised, tribalist & diseased.
Read my article (link) [cited by MansaMusa in the OP]
.
Let's read, learn from, and comment on what "the local native" says.
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Lioness, maybe Belcher has a genuine interest in African history, but she was out there wilding with her interpretations. What she interpreted as lustful nuns was nothing more but a description of nuns playing a game of tag:
Belcher's translation:
"Since you compel me, listen up and let me tell you. It was evening and I was sitting in the house, facing the gate, when I saw some young nuns pressing against each other and being lustful with each other , each with a female companion. Therefore, my heart caught fire and I began to argue with God.....
Belcher claims that in the above quote lies “one of the more important academic findings in the history of same-sex desire in Africa” (2016, p. 31)."
Worse than this, she consults Ethiopian scholars and Ge'ez experts on the issue, and they literally tell her that the nuns were playing tag. She chose to ignore them:
From Belcher's own lips: "I decided to ask various experts what they thought of the passage while I was in Ethiopia. Before we got started, however, Selamawit warned me that if I told traditional Ethiopian scholars what I thought the anecdote actually said, they would just politely agree with me, telling me what I wanted to hear. Or, given the sensitivity of the issue of same-sex desire in Ethiopia, my mere presence as an American might skew the answer. I was grateful for her impeccable field methodology. So she and I parted and asked Ethiopian scholars about the passage without hinting at our own thoughts. We separately showed the Conti Rossini print edition passage to several older Ethiopian male scholars. They all said that the two nuns were not pushing each other around but following each other in a game, being frivolous. Sound philological principles backed their understanding of the passage , but playing tag hardly seemed to warrant a deadly disease (2015, p. xxviii-xxx)." web page (Woldeyes, 2020, pp. 162-167)
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: Lioness, maybe Belcher has a genuine interest in African history, but she was out there wilding with her interpretations. What she interpreted as lustful nuns was nothing more but a description of nuns playing a game of tag:
Belcher's translation:
"Since you compel me, listen up and let me tell you. It was evening and I was sitting in the house, facing the gate, when I saw some young nuns pressing against each other and being lustful with each other , each with a female companion. Therefore, my heart caught fire and I began to argue with God.....
Belcher claims that in the above quote lies “one of the more important academic findings in the history of same-sex desire in Africa” (2016, p. 31)."
Worse than this,
You or I not being Ge'ez experts are not in a position to assess if the text is intending lustful in a sexual way or not or if "lustful" is correct of not
Also please tell me if this already caused controversy in 2015 what is causing this controversy to arise again now
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa:
Worse than this, she consults Ethiopian scholars and Ge'ez experts on the issue, and they literally tell her that the nuns were playing tag. She chose to ignore them:
From Belcher's own lips: "I decided to ask various experts what they thought of the passage while I was in Ethiopia. Before we got started, however, Selamawit warned me that if I told traditional Ethiopian scholars what I thought the anecdote actually said, they would just politely agree with me, telling me what I wanted to hear. Or, given the sensitivity of the issue of same-sex desire in Ethiopia, my mere presence as an American might skew the answer. I was grateful for her impeccable field methodology. So she and I parted and asked Ethiopian scholars about the passage without hinting at our own thoughts. We separately showed the Conti Rossini print edition passage to several older Ethiopian male scholars. They all said that the two nuns were not pushing each other around but following each other in a game, being frivolous. Sound philological principles backed their understanding of the passage , but playing tag hardly seemed to warrant a deadly disease (2015, p. xxviii-xxx)." web page (Woldeyes, 2020, pp. 162-167) [/QB]
A. The Gəˁəz sentence in the original manuscript from the saint’s monastery and that was written in 1672:
B.The Gəˁəz sentence transliterated and with the literal translation for the lustful part:
… ǝnzä … yǝtmarrǝˁa bä-bäynatihon (being lustful with each other)"
C. The Gəˁəz word ይትማርዓ (yǝtmarrǝˁa) as defined in the foremost English-Gəˁəz dictionary (page 356):
D. The English translation of the sentence in Belcher and Kleiner’s work:
Now our holy mother Walatta Petros revealed [the secret] to him, “Since you compel me, listen up and let me tell you. It was evening and I was sitting in the house, facing the gate, when I saw some young nuns pressing against each other and being lustful with each other, each with a female companion.” (page 255)
E. Thus, the English translation of this sentence about “lustful nuns” cannot be disputed.
F. The controversy is fueled by those using the Amharic translation of the book as their source, but it was translated from one mistaken manuscript. The first manuscript of GWP, the one written by the author, plus the other eight oldest manuscripts, which are copies of it, have the Gəˁəz word ይትማርዓ (yǝtmarrǝˁa, lustful). Only two late manuscripts (one copied for a European) have ይትማርሓ (yǝtmarrǝḥa), meaning ǝnzä … yǝtmarrǝḥa bä-bäynatihon (leading each other around or playing around). This “leading each other” around version was used for the Amharic translation, which many use to challenge Belcher’s work, without consulting the Gəˁəz manuscripts.Posts: 42925 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Lioness I trust the interpretation of the young Ethiopian scholar and the army of Ethiopian elders and scholars fluent in Geez that he relies on over the words of a White Woman who is illiterate in this African language. Belcher relies on the interpretation of a monk who dropped out of Monk school (Hayla Seyon, whose expertise in Ge'ez is not disclosed). The scholar I am quoting from is also a monk who dropped out of Monk school. All the elite Ethiopian scholars are on the side of the passage being interpreted as a game of tag. Only Belcher, her White translator, and a monk who dropped out on monk school appear to have a different opinion:
"If Belcher is unsure about the meaning of this crucial word and refers to how English translators could mistranslate words, one may ask why Ethiopian Ge’ez scholars were not consulted to verify the accuracy of her translation. What is most concerning here is that she did ask them, but she chose to disregard them. In the book, she explains how she sought the assistance of Selamawit Mecca, her Ethiopian informant who is neither a follower of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church nor has expertise in Ge’ez:
[I quoted this passage from Belcher already where the local Ge'ez experts make it clear that the passage was a bout a game of tag as opposed to young Ethiopian nuns engaging in sexual lesbian foreplay out in the open on the grounds of a holy monastery.]
Since local Ge’ez experts do not provide the answer Belcher wants, she disregards their testimony. Instead, she turns to someone else:
Selamawit recommended we approach a different type of scholar, a young former monk for whom she had tremendous respect. [He] had grown up in the Täwaᒒədo church but had left it, so he had the scholarly background necessary to read the anecdote with skill but also the distance to read it openly. Hayla Seyon took one look at the anecdote and immediately said that it was about samesex desire (2015, p. xxx).
It is remarkable that Belcher has pinned her entire analysis on a young former monk whose training in Ge’ez, if any, is not disclosed. She has disregarded many local experts, many of whom train for decades in order to fully understand and interpret Ge’ez, for a single monk who left the order. Like Seyon, I grew up in the church and entered, but then left, the monastery. My knowledge of Ge’ez, alongside my consultation with local experts (and, indeed, Belcher’s own consultation with local experts), does not confer with his analysis.
What we see here is the white scholar situating herself as the only objective judge of black people’s history. Black experts who do not confirm her analysis are replaced by those who do, regardless as to their lack of expertise. As a result of this, Belcher discards all ambiguities surrounding the meaning of the word marea (መርዐ), including how it operates in spiritual contexts. " (Woldeyes, 2020, pp. 167-168)
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For Belcher's Lesbian hypothesis to be taken seriously it has to rise to the standard of intellectual and academic credibility. Coming up with translations that are not verified by the experts of that language disqualifies her interpretation being taken seriously.
Let us not lower the bar for White academia. Please. They have it good enough already!
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: I think they have fully conquered Black feminist ideology. The nonsensical Black men ain't shit attitude of many Black academics is frankly embarrassing.
Yes but the idea originated among white feminists first who propagated the idea of 'Women's Liberation'. While there was indeed some truth to this ideology as female suppression is a historical fact, it makes little sense when to comes to black women who historically had more freedoms in their own community and were treated with more equality than white women in their own communities.
As I said, while there is some truth to the idea of 'Women's Liberation', there is also lies and ultimately the seeds to women's discontent and animosity towards men. That's because the concept itself actually originated from MEN of the Frankfurt School of Marxist thought, whose goal was literally to destroy human society! In the case of Women's Lib, the goal is to weaponize women against the men of their community and thus destroy the community itself.
It's a similar concept with 'Black Liberation'. Yes there is definitely truth to this idea as well as blacks were also historically suppressed, but the Marxist goal isn't really to empower and free blacks but instead weaponize them against the predominant white society and again lead to societal destruction. We this happening right know with so-called Black Lives Matter. Black people are being used as pawns of the elite for their agenda the same way women are with women's lib.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Are you saying all Western feminists are lesbians and lesbians are perverts?
No, not at all! My statements were in regards to Western academic feminists and no not all of them are lesbians or perverts. In fact, one scholar I follow closely is Max Dashu who is herself not only a feminist but a lesbian! My point is that usually those with Marxist leanings or agendas are the ones who are perverted and not necessarily in a sexual sense but definitely in a social sense. They want to deny reality or rewrite history according to their own agenda that is either anti-male or/and pro homosexual or lesbian.
Take Max Dashu, she herself writes many articles on female personages of history but she does so on an objective basis using all written or oral traditions. Whatever biases she may have, she doesn't project it onto the figures she writes about. She tries to give all sides of the narrative and points out probabilities of a woman's character. She doesn't insert things like a woman being a lesbian or something unless some evidence suggests so. Note that there were more monks in Ethiopia than nuns yet when is the last time you heard of famous Ethiopian monks being labeled as homosexuals? This is not to say there weren't homosexual monks or nuns in Ethiopia but I do question it when it comes from a Western academic especially a feminist and the claims contradict the native lore.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African: I am not anti-feminist, but white feminists can sometimes be the worst on racial issues. They claim to be allies of women of color, but in my experience, they have a problem with acting like they represent marginalized people better than marginalized people themselves. This Belcher character sounds like she suffers from the same underlying problem.
Exactly! That's because Marxists aren't really interested in equal alliances but in control and domination. That's why ANTIFA and white BLM activists actually view blacks as helpless children that need white saviors.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: That's because the concept itself actually originated from MEN of the Frankfurt School of Marxist thought, whose goal was literally to destroy human society!
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: For Belcher's Lesbian hypothesis to be taken seriously it has to rise to the standard of intellectual and academic credibility. Coming up with translations that are not verified by the experts of that language disqualifies her interpretation being taken seriously.
Let us not lower the bar for White academia. Please. They have it good enough already!
As far as I can see Walatta Petros has never been mentioned before on Egyptsearch
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quote:Originally posted by One Third African: Sorry, this is little more than an antisemitic conspiracy theory. And one with Nazi roots. You of all people should know better than to endorse that kind of conspiracism.
It's not a conspiracy! It is a FACT. That members of the school were Jewish is just fodder for anti-Semites to push their agenda. However, long before their abolishment and expulsion by the Nazis, Joseph Stalin thought their ideas were so radical he called them "psychopaths" and a "threat to humanity"! He even sent assassins to Germany to kill some of their leaders. The whole Jewish nature of Marxism and their proponents is merely one large red-herring and distraction. Even Karl Marx himself was of Jewish extraction but that does not change the fact that his ideas and those of his colleague Friedrich Engels (who is NOT Jewish but interestingly not as well known as Marx) are derived from older non-Jewish scholars and thinkers who serve powerful elites who are again non-Jewish. Marxism and it's more radical expression of communism is nothing more than a social weapon used to bankrupt entire nations not only economically but socially, spiritually, and even physically through depopulation so that they can easily be conquered by the elites. Again these elites are NOT Jewish but like to use Jews as pawns and weaponize them so to make them a target. This is why when people think of the elite families that one that automatically comes to mind is the alleged 'Jewish' Rothschild but many don't realize they are just the bankers and financiers for those more wealthy and powerful than them.
So NO there is actually nothing anti-Semitic about it. In fact the same elites who funded the Nazis are the ones who like crying "anti-Semite" to protect the Jewish pawns they use. The same pawns who have nothing to do with the average Jewish person. Anymore than the common German has to do with a Nazi.
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^ Wiki can be edited by anybody the source I cited is comes from a site on Marxism.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: prove it
Pat Buchanan is your mentor?
LOL typical simpleton response. The Frankfurt School started in Germany which is the same country the Nazi Party started in. I already stated that communist dictator Joseph Stalin sent assassins against the leaders of the Frankfort School and his regime and the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was also backed and supported by the same elites in Germany who backed the Nazis and even funded the Frankfurt school. So no anti-Semitic 'Elders of the Protocols of Zion' theories need not apply.
As far as proof, just look at all the damage that radical feminism has wrought not only in mainstream white society but even minority communities as well as the destructive acts committed by ANTIFA and BLM despite the rightful imperatives of justice for murders done by police that they claim is their original goal.
By the way Lioness, if I didn't know any better I'd say you are taking our critiques of this Belcher lady a little too seriously. Is she your mentor? I thought Mathilda is.
We always knew you were an agent of white paradigm academia but to this extent?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
By the way, this writing by Saint Woleta is not the only attack on Ethiopia's religious heritage. Recall last year's debacle surrounding the gay tourism of Ethiopia's monasteries. People like to throw out the label of conspiracies well there seems to be one to "gay up" Ethiopia's Christian heritage.
Strange how you never see this done to holy sites or people across the Gulf in Saudi Arabia.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Frankfurt School started in Germany which is the same country the Nazi Party started in. I already stated that communist dictator Joseph Stalin sent assassins against the leaders of the Frankfort School and his regime and the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was also backed and supported by the same elites in Germany who backed the Nazis and even funded the Frankfurt school.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: the Frankfurt School of Marxist thought, whose goal was literally to destroy human society!
Again where is a quote that the Frankfurt School's goal was to destroy human society?
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: I think they have fully conquered Black feminist ideology. The nonsensical Black men ain't shit attitude of many Black academics is frankly embarrassing.
Yes but the idea originated among white feminists first who propagated the idea of 'Women's Liberation'. While there was indeed some truth to this ideology as female suppression is a historical fact, it makes little sense when to comes to black women who historically had more freedoms in their own community and were treated with more equality than white women in their own communities.
As I said, while there is some truth to the idea of 'Women's Liberation', there is also lies and ultimately the seeds to women's discontent and animosity towards men. That's because the concept itself actually originated from MEN of the Frankfurt School of Marxist thought, whose goal was literally to destroy human society! In the case of Women's Lib, the goal is to weaponize women against the men of their community and thus destroy the community itself.
“While their is indeed some truth…"really, “some” truth. Women being second class citizens to men has been a nearly universal fact for majority of human history and still goes on in most parts of the world today. Black women in Africa were definitely NOT excluded from this reality. Some areas of the world were definitely more limiting in comparison to others, but it was still the same basic structure of men before women all around the globe. The freedoms that many western women hold today is amazing when you considered that throughout history, women all over the world had to deal with limited mobility, barred from education, shut out of politics, submissive not only to their husbands but to every men they meet, discouraged from voicing their opinions or raising their voices at men, were expected to deal with physical and sexual abuse by their husbands, being sold to men as concubines with even less rights than the already limited rights that women had, sexual harassment and assault by strangers and family members with the society overall being dismissive to such allegations, and having to deal with being the “spoils” of war. And this still goes on to this very day where women are disregarded entirely. There are traditional nomadic African ethnic groups today whose men can kill their wives and get away with it and little girls are forced into marriages with older men before the time they hit puberty.
And many men want to keep this status quo and ignore the anguish that it has caused women since the beginning of time.
Also, laugh out loud that a women discontent of men came from some school. Dude, female issues weren't respected in most parts of the world. Women were essentially voiceless. The narratives of the past has an obvious male bias. You may not know this, but even for modern western women, we treat all strange men with caution because of past experiences with men starting when we are 12(some younger) of them making sexual comments to us,doing unwanted physical contact, and being over pushy with their advances. It doesn't take any more than that to create animosity.
Posts: 116 | From: Birmingham, AL | Registered: Oct 2011
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The Frankfurt School started in Germany which is the same country the Nazi Party started in. I already stated that communist dictator Joseph Stalin sent assassins against the leaders of the Frankfort School and his regime and the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was also backed and supported by the same elites in Germany who backed the Nazis and even funded the Frankfurt school.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: the Frankfurt School of Marxist thought, whose goal was literally to destroy human society!
Again where is a quote that the Frankfurt School's goal was to destroy human society?
Also odd how feminism supposedly destroys society and yet the arguably best places to live on earth are areas where there is near complete equality among men and women, and some of the worst countries on earth are still very oppressive towards women. Go figure.
Posts: 116 | From: Birmingham, AL | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
^ You are obviously mistaken. I am not against feminism per say if it is about equity and fairness for women. What I am against is the Neo-Marxist, Frankfurt, radical version of feminism that states that all males are guilty of sexism and misogyny just by being male and that all males are potential oppressors of females. This over-simplistic and just plain WRONG view of the dynamics of patriarchy and sexism does nothing to eliminate the problems of female suppression and only aggravates it by causing resentment in innocent males.
The same holds true for the idea of black liberation being about all whites being guilty of racism just for being white and having white skin or European ancestry means being a potential for people of color especially blacks.
I actually follow the works of feminist scholar Max Dashu who actually takes a more nuanced and objective approach to sexism as a cultural problem caused by certain social situations that are dynamic in nature and not something inherent to all culture let alone inherent among men. https://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/patriarchies.html
In fact, the reason why sexism or suppression of women has been widespread across the globe including Africa is simply due to cultural trends brought on by imperialism namely the three dominant civlizations on the globe right now-- 'Western' or Romano-German civlilzation, Arab-Islamic cvilization, and Imperial Chinese cvilization. I don't know if you're even aware that many cultures in the past used to be what Dashu calls 'matrix' cultures or 'matriarchal' but are not anymore. This the case in the Americas, Africa, and various parts of Asia.
By the way, the same is true for racism. Modern day biological racism as we know it today originated from 17th centuray European notions of ethno-chauvinsim. Many cultures are ethno-chauvinist but it was Europeans, specifically Germans who created a whole 'science' or rather pseudo-science to prove their claims which became what we know as modern bio-anthropology.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
We were all glad back in the mid-late 70's for 'Marxist-Leninist' aid, support, and direction on campuses throughout the USA in dismantling apartheid South Africa. They provided contacts and resources the Bouley (Black petit bourgeois) wouldn't.
Allies have the same temporal objective with neither being any vanguard for the other. That's not alliance. It's servitude. Allies are like clouds blown together and parted by currents affecting both. When the current ebbs so does the alliance.
Being an ally is not being a vanguard dupe. The vanguard is the first to get bumped off. Ytes are taking the brunt of reactionary violence as some attempt to atone for the Sins of the Fathers by undoing their setup. Street politicized Blx r ^ mindless sheep nor monolithic in outlook or tactics. Ain't nobody interested in no Marxist socialized state. $$$ Rulez everywhere.
Blacks are just that, black. Blx aren't some amorphous people of color, what an obscurant way to say non-whites. In this century and in this decade I've had more blatant problems with POC than I have had with whites. POC are an arm of yte ppl buffering them from Blacks and Blk concerns all the while advancing in America due to policies originally intended for Blk application.
Every time Blx successfully demand and attain something for themselves here come POC to siphon off the best of it. Blk problems stem from systemic racism. Class doesn't dissolve race.
Non-whiteness is meaningless for black peoples Blx are on the bottom in the POC home countries.
Black Liberation Struggle is black centered It's about what it says, liberating Blacks. And the fact remains all ytes do benefit from Black enslavement, anti-Reconstruction, and Jim Crow policy. Meanwhile immigrants from Europe Asia and Africa benefit from the above and from cashing in on programs that should've been used to even the social imbalance ytes imposed on Blx.
posted
^ Yes, and it were Marxists who funded and mobilized the Civil Rights Movement of the 50s and 60s especially those of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I'm not denying the beneficial acts or outcomes of their 'alliance' but I do question their motives and true goals. Even when looking at the bigger picture of the outcome of the Civil Rights Movement, their true purpose was integration to the point of assimilation so the 'negro' would no longer be a threat and be another cog in the machine. Note that de-segregation went only one way-- with black students going to white schools and black customers patronizing white owned industries. After integration came the Great Black Depression of the 60s because many black owned businesses went bankrupt while white owned ones became richer even if the owners were racist. Then came Lyndon B. Johnson's 'solution' to the Black Depression with his Great Society program and 'war on poverty' which was just mass welfare to subvert and destroy black families and make them government dependent, and the rest is history.
My point is make allies when you can but when it comes to Marxists it's best to use them before they use you.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Such is one of many examples of colonial rewriting of African history. Though I can't help but wonder if this revision is some form of attack on Ethiopia not only the oldest Christian nation in Africa but the only one to successfully resist colonization both political from Italy as well as religiously from the Vatican (Saint Woletta being leader of the resistance against the Jesuits). This is the same nation whose leader Emperor Haile Selassie was assassinated and right after a socialist government was set up in place of the imperial monarchy which stagnated Ethiopia's development.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You are obviously mistaken. I am not against feminism per say if it is about equity and fairness for women. What I am against is the Neo-Marxist, Frankfurt, radical version of feminism that states that all males are guilty of sexism and misogyny just by being male and that all males are potential oppressors of females. This over-simplistic and just plain WRONG view of the dynamics of patriarchy and sexism does nothing to eliminate the problems of female suppression and only aggravates it by causing resentment in innocent males.
The same holds true for the idea of black liberation being about all whites being guilty of racism just for being white and having white skin or European ancestry means being a potential for people of color especially blacks.
I actually follow the works of feminist scholar Max Dashu who actually takes a more nuanced and objective approach to sexism as a cultural problem caused by certain social situations that are dynamic in nature and not something inherent to all culture let alone inherent among men. https://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/patriarchies.html
In fact, the reason why sexism or suppression of women has been widespread across the globe including Africa is simply due to cultural trends brought on by imperialism namely the three dominant civlizations on the globe right now-- 'Western' or Romano-German civlilzation, Arab-Islamic cvilization, and Imperial Chinese cvilization. I don't know if you're even aware that many cultures in the past used to be what Dashu calls 'matrix' cultures or 'matriarchal' but are not anymore. This the case in the Americas, Africa, and various parts of Asia.
By the way, the same is true for racism. Modern day biological racism as we know it today originated from 17th centuray European notions of ethno-chauvinsim. Many cultures are ethno-chauvinist but it was Europeans, specifically Germans who created a whole 'science' or rather pseudo-science to prove their claims which became what we know as modern bio-anthropology.
There still much debate on whether or not true matriarchal societies existed and the most scholars leans towards a no. There were usually varying forms of it, and it didnt always mean that women were viewed in equal position. It commonly meant that the family descent is passed through the female line versus the male.
How a culture treated their women varied from region to region, and you will find just as many oppressive systems in pre-contact Africa, Asia, and the Americas. Africa was no more a hot bed of women equality than anywhere else in the world. Take southern African countries, for example. I always wondered why these countries today has such high rates of sexual assault, only to discover that many traditional southern Bantu cultures viewed women as the property of men and they had little say in the goings of the household. Women aren’t viewed as their own persons, so sexually assault of a woman would would be more incline to damaging another men property versus harming another person. The high amount of sexual crimes today is probably a product of modern poverty of the people, but the traditional attitudes help to fuel the crime.
There are african ethnic groups who still practice their traditional cultures and they are usually just as oppressive to women, or even more so. I found that many of the nomadic and pastoral African tribes were particularly oppressive, and wife beating was tolerated, and even read of claims that men could kill their wives in some ethnic groups and get away with it. You also have to ask yourself even in areas where foreign religions were adopted, what practices stayed and lived on. Just as you find West African muslims still participating in some traditional practices, some practices were adopted alongside it, but the traditional culture was till intact. There a practice in Ethiopia where men would kidnap and rape woman they want to marry, and the woman had no choice but to marry him because they were viewed as damaged goods at that point. The practice points to a very old tradition of bride kidnapping in this region. Bride kidnapping traditions are spread out all over the world, and it more than likely not an example of culture diffusion from some other source, but an unfortunate tradition that probably came about from ethnic disputes.
You also have to keep in mind, even in areas where women were viewed in a more respectful light, that didn’t say much for the social dynamics between men and women. Wodaabe people are a good example, and it is well known how there are wife stealing ceremonies where a betrothed woman could choose a suitor and be stolen away. It stated that in day to day life, women are respected, but what women say themselves, they express fear towards the men since it considered acceptable for husband to punish his wife.
Now I do agree there was a decrease in women role in many areas of west africa with western colonization and adoption of foreign religions, but I would disagree with the idea that it was the majority of the continent. It varied from ethnic group to ethnic group, some areas were better for women than others, some were just as oppressive.
Posts: 116 | From: Birmingham, AL | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: the Civil Rights Movement, their true purpose was integration to the point of assimilation so the 'negro' would no longer be a threat
That was Martin Luther King's purpose?
Posts: 42925 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Native Colonialism: Education and the Economy of Violence Against Traditions in Ethiopia examines the cause and consequence of native colonialism, the process whereby a country colonises itself with foreign institutions and ideals. Taking Ethiopia as its case study, it asks, why did a country that was never colonised replace its government, legal system and educational institutions with foreign imitations? How did it come to have a European language as its medium of higher education and why was the rich philosophy, literature and history of the country replaced by western knowledge? What is the impact of this process in the identities and daily lives of contemporary Ethiopian students? Based on a synthesis of historical, philosophical and empirical sources, the book delves into Ethiopia s little-known wealth of traditional knowledge and practices of relating to the world before major historical events triggered subsequent changes in the political life of the country. The book draws its evidence from a variety of Ethiopian sources that have rarely been studied or utilised in academic research. It provides never-before seen interpretations of indigenous sources of knowledge and features ground breaking empirical research on traditional and modern schools in the county, as well as interviews with students, teachers and traditional leaders. The book offers comprehensive and fresh insights into rethinking colonialism, particularly when it is driven from within.
________________________________
Yirga Gelaw Woldeyes
YIRGA GELAW WOLDEYES is a Researcher and Lecturer at the Centre for Human Rights Education, Curtin University, Australia. Born in Lalibela, Ethiopia, Yirga taught law and worked with grassroots organisations in the country before completing his Doctorate in Australia. His interdisciplinary research interests focus on understanding knowledge, challenges, and potentials in third world countries in the field of education, culture, development, law and politics.
Yirga Gelaw's Presentation at Hiob Ludolf Center of Ethiopian Studies on Native Colonialism Dec 22, 2017
_________________________
Born in Ethiopia, one thing he talks about is how using a foreign language like English in some contexts can be a form of cultural colonization
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Djehuti
I'm sure you realize yte ppl had big stakes in those civil rights marches and bills. What many missed out on is south, east, catholic, and jewish Euros got better rights reserved in their name and not available to Black, Native American, 'Puerto Rican' set of separate rights which were no way equal. This opened middle mgmt and higher gates and removed the above listed yte ppl's glass ceiling.
How I know? During my career I was accommodated per those very same civil rights laws ratified for Jews. Somewhere already on ES are the actual gov docs.
I don't see where marxist-socialist gained? But yes, marxist-socialists designed an alliance where Blx would be the vanguard and sure enough Blx became the TV face of civil rights agitation like you say few were hip to the 'behind the scene'.
I've told you about one alliance experience and how we ASA weren't anybody's vanguard and abide by our own political philosophy based on African socializations.
posted
I have updated and deleted some of my remarks on this subject (see post #3 bottom section)
I have changed my opinion on this
I see that in 2015 had translated this text for the first time in English and I saw that Guardian article which does seem to "sex up" an Ethiopian saint and Belcher seems to have brought attention to this supposed lesbian "lust". I think that type of sensationalism is in bad taste to make such accusations about a revered religious figure from another culture in such a blatant way. I wouldn't say the theory is impossible but I think this lust thing far too hyped speculation
-Also it is based on a biography written 30 years after her death
_________________________________
The author was a monk named Gälawdewos. He wrote it by collecting multiple oral histories from the saint's community, as well as adding his own thoughts. It has three parts: the biography, the miracles that happened to those who called on her name after her death, and two hymns (Mälkəˀa Wälättä Peṭros and Sälamta Wälättä Peṭros). Later, in 1769, others added more miracles, including those about the following kings: Bäkaffa, Iyasu II, Iyoˀas I, Ras Mikaˀel Səḥul, Yoḥannəs II, Täklä Giyorgis I and Tewodros II.
Over a dozen manuscript copies were made in Ethiopia. The first print edition was published in 1912, based on one manuscript.The first translation into another language, Italian, was published in 1970,In 2015, the first English translation was published, which included color plates from the parchment manuscript illuminations of her life, and in 2018 a short student edition was published.
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I still maintain Wendy Laura Belcher is not regarded as a "Feminist Academic". And is this book promoting feminism?
Belcher is Professor of African literature with a joint appointment in the Princeton University Department of Comparative Literature and the Department for African American Studies.
and translated an Ethiopian religious text with this sexual angle too strongly empathized which I think was in poor taste
Before that in 2005 The Russian historian, Teacher of Classical Ethiopic, Sevir Chernetsov (who also died in 2005) published a now hard to find article in Khristianski Vostok magazine (Journal of the Christian East).
"A Transgressor of the Norms of Female Behaviour in the Seventeenth-Century Ethiopia: The Heroine of the Life of Our Mother Walatta Petros"
I'm not sure what was in that article what the transgressions were. Wikipedia says she is descried as a " non-gender-conforming saint."
Posts: 42925 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Not surprising. Just that three word title alone 'Western Feminist Academic' automatically equates to perversion. It's Western feminist academics who deceive and brainwash women of non-Western cultures and non-white ethnicities into accepting their dysfunction and degeneracy. It were these female Marxist agents that brought anti-male, radical feminism into the black community and ruined male-female relationships in the black community, and are doing the same in the Latino community today. They're also trying to make headway into the Asian community as well.
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: I think they have fully conquered Black feminist ideology. The nonsensical Black men ain't shit attitude of many Black academics is frankly embarrassing.
Yes but the idea originated among white feminists first who propagated the idea of 'Women's Liberation'. While there was indeed some truth to this ideology as female suppression is a historical fact, it makes little sense when to comes to black women who historically had more freedoms in their own community and were treated with more equality than white women in their own communities.
As I said, while there is some truth to the idea of 'Women's Liberation', there is also lies and ultimately the seeds to women's discontent and animosity towards men. That's because the concept itself actually originated from MEN of the Frankfurt School of Marxist thought, whose goal was literally to destroy human society! In the case of Women's Lib, the goal is to weaponize women against the men of their community and thus destroy the community itself.
It's a similar concept with 'Black Liberation'. Yes there is definitely truth to this idea as well as blacks were also historically suppressed, but the Marxist goal isn't really to empower and free blacks but instead weaponize them against the predominant white society and again lead to societal destruction. We this happening right know with so-called Black Lives Matter. Black people are being used as pawns of the elite for their agenda the same way women are with women's lib.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Are you saying all Western feminists are lesbians and lesbians are perverts?
No, not at all! My statements were in regards to Western academic feminists and no not all of them are lesbians or perverts. In fact, one scholar I follow closely is Max Dashu who is herself not only a feminist but a lesbian! My point is that usually those with Marxist leanings or agendas are the ones who are perverted and not necessarily in a sexual sense but definitely in a social sense. They want to deny reality or rewrite history according to their own agenda that is either anti-male or/and pro homosexual or lesbian.
Take Max Dashu, she herself writes many articles on female personages of history but she does so on an objective basis using all written or oral traditions. Whatever biases she may have, she doesn't project it onto the figures she writes about. She tries to give all sides of the narrative and points out probabilities of a woman's character. She doesn't insert things like a woman being a lesbian or something unless some evidence suggests so. Note that there were more monks in Ethiopia than nuns yet when is the last time you heard of famous Ethiopian monks being labeled as homosexuals? This is not to say there weren't homosexual monks or nuns in Ethiopia but I do question it when it comes from a Western academic especially a feminist and the claims contradict the native lore.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African: I am not anti-feminist, but white feminists can sometimes be the worst on racial issues. They claim to be allies of women of color, but in my experience, they have a problem with acting like they represent marginalized people better than marginalized people themselves. This Belcher character sounds like she suffers from the same underlying problem.
Exactly! That's because Marxists aren't really interested in equal alliances but in control and domination. That's why ANTIFA and white BLM activists actually view blacks as helpless children that need white saviors.
I was agreeing until you lost me at BLM activists and Black Liberation..... Yea lets slow down there.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
Great Thread just started reading it. Being a registered Republican, mostly vote Republican, but I did vote for Obama the first time. Within the last year I have been turned on by Howell, Hoover Institute, etc and realized at heart I am a Conservative. To Musa’s point I came to the same conclusion independently there is a intentional effort to destroy the family unit and social structure as we know it. That is why I wrote many times on the gay agenda. Then I did a investigation on BLM and realized they are NOT what many think they are. Another ani-social destructive group masquerading as defenders of Black People. I am pleased to see some of you are catching on. Trump is not the best standard bearer of conservative or family values but he is the lesser of 2 evils. We cannot sit on the sidelines. If you don’t realize it. This is going down right now. This is it! These people have showed their hand and there is no going back into the shadows. They are outed! If they lose this November they will use the nuclear option. All out anarchy…or an attempt at it…to bring the house down. Think Brexit think Trump Nationalism. And yes, this has gone beyond the US American border. This is global. This is a global tactical move. I am not sure what is coming but depending on who wins it is not going to be pretty.
These were probably the same people who instructed David Reich and Haak to doctor the results of the Abusir. Clear the STR data from the dataset. Always to control the narrative. These people need to be rid of. Get the truth out.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
BTW. Anyone has a link that petitions Netflix to ban or stop showing “Cuties”? Another example of destructive programming with the intent of destroying the innocence of our kids. It is in the schools and on television.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Can someone please direct me to work by indigenous scholars on medieval Ethiopian history or even Axumite history. This work by Woldeyes has whetted my appetite.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: Can someone please direct me to work by indigenous scholars on medieval Ethiopian history or even Axumite history. This work by Woldeyes has whetted my appetite.
References in this text and also see the left column that refers to different translations of particular works, see references
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quote:Originally posted by HabariTess: There still much debate on whether or not true matriarchal societies existed and the most scholars leans towards a no. There were usually varying forms of it, and it didn't always mean that women were viewed in equal position. It commonly meant that the family descent is passed through the female line versus the male.
Family lineage being reckoned through the female line is described as matrilineal not matriarchal. Though matriliny is an integral part and parcel of matriarchal societies some cultures may retain matriliny despite shifting to patriarchal or male dominant values. The very term "matriarchy" itself is a term unnecessarily loaded with baggage. For example if the term patriarchy conveys 'male dominated' then matriarchy is often assumed to mean the reverse-- 'female dominated' though no society has ever existed where females dominate males. There has existed many societies on the hand where the sexes were totally equal and these more often than not were the ones labeled "matriarchal". This is why Max Dashu prefers to use the different term of matrix or matrical for these cultures.
By the way, some historical 'patriarchal' cultures also displayed gender equality as well which is why I'm not too fond of using that term either, especially since the radical feminists have corrupted that word to mean male domination or supremacy.
quote:How a culture treated their women varied from region to region, and you will find just as many oppressive systems in pre-contact Africa, Asia, and the Americas. Africa was no more a hot bed of women equality than anywhere else in the world. Take southern African countries, for example. I always wondered why these countries today has such high rates of sexual assault, only to discover that many traditional southern Bantu cultures viewed women as the property of men and they had little say in the goings of the household. Women aren’t viewed as their own persons, so sexually assault of a woman would would be more incline to damaging another men property versus harming another person. The high amount of sexual crimes today is probably a product of modern poverty of the people, but the traditional attitudes help to fuel the crime.
There are african ethnic groups who still practice their traditional cultures and they are usually just as oppressive to women, or even more so. I found that many of the nomadic and pastoral African tribes were particularly oppressive, and wife beating was tolerated, and even read of claims that men could kill their wives in some ethnic groups and get away with it. You also have to ask yourself even in areas where foreign religions were adopted, what practices stayed and lived on. Just as you find West African muslims still participating in some traditional practices, some practices were adopted alongside it, but the traditional culture was till intact. There a practice in Ethiopia where men would kidnap and rape woman they want to marry, and the woman had no choice but to marry him because they were viewed as damaged goods at that point. The practice points to a very old tradition of bride kidnapping in this region. Bride kidnapping traditions are spread out all over the world, and it more than likely not an example of culture diffusion from some other source, but an unfortunate tradition that probably came about from ethnic disputes.
You also have to keep in mind, even in areas where women were viewed in a more respectful light, that didn’t say much for the social dynamics between men and women. Wodaabe people are a good example, and it is well known how there are wife stealing ceremonies where a betrothed woman could choose a suitor and be stolen away. It stated that in day to day life, women are respected, but what women say themselves, they express fear towards the men since it considered acceptable for husband to punish his wife.
Now I do agree there was a decrease in women role in many areas of west africa with western colonization and adoption of foreign religions, but I would disagree with the idea that it was the majority of the continent. It varied from ethnic group to ethnic group, some areas were better for women than others, some were just as oppressive.
Everything you stated above is correct. I never said that colonialism was the only reason for the erosion of women's rights either in Africa or elsewhere. I merely said it was ONE factor. As I said, cultures are dynamic and subject to change, and this includes views and attitudes on gender and gender roles. These trends can come about internally or brought on externally or both. Also the different roles and views differ by degrees as well. This is why simplistic generalist terms like 'matriarchy' or 'patriarchy' don't fully convey what is going on with a culture.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: the Civil Rights Movement, their true purpose was integration to the point of assimilation so the 'negro' would no longer be a threat
That was Martin Luther King's purpose?
In the sentence you snipped, I specifically said their purpose not King's. So how about you go back and read who they are unless you are being dishonest again. By the way, I think King realized their agenda when he said, “I Fear I May Have Integrated My People Into a Burning House”, after which they assassinated him. Interestingly, King's mother Alberta Williams King tried to warn the people of the plot which led to her assassination as well. It was the same with Malcolm X and so on.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I was agreeing until you lost me at BLM activists and Black Liberation..... Yea lets slow down there.
Askia, all I'm saying is do research on the founders of BLM and look at who is funding them. Wealthy white elites some of whom don't even live in America but in Europe and are related to or connected with the Nazi families who run the EU.
Anyway, I don't know how this thread devolved into more political mire all I'm saying is that there has been and still is a cabal of powerful white elites who seek to control through subversion and demoralization. They hide their insidious doings through "social justice" and social activism using grievances of minorities especially black peoples to their own ends. They are not interested in black empowerment or prosperity but in blacks being dependent and used like pawns. So beware is all I'm saying on the issue.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Wengrow is spot on, and I would add that universities who do promote an African-centred approach regarding African history have to also ensure theyre addressing other inequalities, such as the lack of Black and non-white tenured staff and students, and making academic spaces accessible to low-income people. If they cant do that, it risks being another self-flagellating performance of ablution - intended to provide feel-good-feels to all involved but largely provides no change to the system.
"They claim to be allies of women of color, but in my experience, they have a problem with acting like they represent marginalized people better than marginalized people themselves. This Belcher character sounds like she suffers from the same underlying problem."
That sounds like that Craig character in Donald Glovers 'Atlanta'. And those are the same people that critical race theorist John Preston describes as displaying guilt as property, and using it as a form of cultural capital like trading it for academic credentials i.e. getting tenured/a publishing deal/column inches.
Pinning the problems facing Black and non-white communities on Marxism sounds like some sort of Cold War era American propaganda, and using antisemitic conspiracy theories is like something the 'alt-right' do, or worse, actual Nazis.
Posts: 61 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2016
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^ Aside from whatever Western Academic source is commissioning it, another major reason why I find these allegations on Saint Walatta to be suspect comes from the simple fact of Habesha (Abyssinian) culture. Habesha culture is very individualistic and highly meritorious based. As such a person's position in society is based predominantly on a person's own merit and capabilities. This is especially the case when it comes to religious vocations such as priests, monks, and nuns. Unlike in Europe where individuals tend to hide behind their religious titles no matter what their transgressions, Habesha people actually hold their clergy to strict standards. If a nun for example violates her oath of chastity or acts in a lascivious way, she would immediately be defrocked and disgraced in front of her community much less be made a saint. Again this is not like Europe especially the Roman Catholic Church where clergy can do anything behind closed doors and victims of their abuses or excesses were expected to stay quiet.
In fact, I think this a major reason why the Roman Catholic Church failed to subjugate and assimilate the Tewahedo (Ethiopian Orthodox) Church. This is because both the clergy and laity could see through b.s. including the Jesuit agents that the Portuguese allies sent to aid the Abyssinia's war against the Adal Sultanate which led to King Susenyo's conversion to Catholicism. Walatta was instrumental in ending the suppression of her native church and driving out the Jesuits. Which is why I'm suspicious of Haile Selassie's assassination and replacement by a socialist regime and now this mock up with Walatta's biography which seems like a smear job.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Yes, and it were Marxists who funded and mobilized the Civil Rights Movement of the 50s and 60s especially those of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I'm not denying the beneficial acts or outcomes of their 'alliance' but I do question their motives and true goals.
This may be a bit simplistic. Sure, SOME Marxists aided the Civil Rights Movement, or sought to co-opt it, but the movement was a genuine mass movement by black people extending back to Reconstruction on key issues, not a Marxist pawn project. In fact, Marxism had a continual problem with blacks, most of whom who (a) rejected Stalin's "black belt" model of an independent black state in the south as unrealistic and (b) were skeptical of Marxist arguments for alliances or "united fronts" with white labor given white labor's deep rooted racism and racist practices. So to claim some huge level of Marxist domination is a distortion of the actual historical record. And civil rights mobilization was not due to "Marxism."
Even when looking at the bigger picture of the outcome of the Civil Rights Movement, their true purpose was integration to the point of assimilation so the 'negro' would no longer be a threat and be another cog in the machine.
This too seems a bit questionable. Marxists pushed for integration, but so did a massive number of blacks, most of whom did not envision assimilation anytime soon. In fact "assimilation" was often seen as a utopian distraction to the more realistic goal of obtaining basic rights and opportunities. Martin Luther King once famously said: "I want to be the white man's brother, not his brother -in-law."
Note that de-segregation went only one way-- with black students going to white schools and black customers patronizing white owned industries. After integration came the Great Black Depression of the 60s because many black owned businesses went bankrupt while white owned ones became richer even if the owners were racist.
Nope, recheck the data. There was no "Great Black Depression" of the 1960s. To the contrary the 1960s saw a large expansion of black opportunities and income as civil rights gains, and economic and educational gains (GI Bill) for example were consolidated. Many credible studies of the economic gains of the civil rights era show this. See for example: Gavin Wright 2013. Sharing The Prize.
As for black businesses, SOME went under not merely due to integration, but because of GENERAL POSTWAR TRENDS such as the rise of chain stores, and demographic shifts to the suburbs. Many blacks also found the new opportunities opened up by integration to be better than running marginal mom and pop businesses. Beware of the trap of blaming this and that simply on "integration."
Then came Lyndon B. Johnson's 'solution' to the Black Depression with his Great Society program and 'war on poverty' which was just mass welfare to subvert and destroy black families and make them government dependent, and the rest is history.
This is a bit off as well. First there was no "Black Depression" of the 1960s. Second the War on Poverty had many facets, from expanding educational opportunities and new schools, to expanding job opportunities, to expanding healthcare opportunities- not only building more hospitals but forcing existing ones to begin serving black patients as a condition of receiving federal money. The Great Society was not merely "welfare." This claim is a standard right-wing talking point that fools many people.
just mass welfare to subvert and destroy black families and make them government dependent,
Not quite when you recheck data. I highly recommend credible studies such as Martin Gilens' Why Americans hate welfare (2009) High rates of black welfare representation were in evidence BEFORE the Great Society/War on Poverty programs for the simple fact that blacks had more poverty, and needed more assistance. They could not count on social security for the New Deal 1930s Social Security laws EXCUDED a majority of blacks, at the insistence of white southern legislators, who lobbied to exclude domestics and farm workers- occupations heavily black. Historically high death rates of black men also left more black widows and orphans in need of more assistance.
Furthermore things like rising black out-of-wedlock rates are a trend BEFORE War on Poverty/Great Society programs as blacks became MORE URBANIZED in the harsh concrete jungles of both North and South after WW2. Similar things happened to the white Irish in the US who also came from a rural peasant background, as Thomas Sowell shows in many of his books. While things like welfare created dependency in SOME areas and families it is on top of an already pre-existing trend.
Here's a scholar cited by conservative Thoms Sowell on the issue:
It is clear from the data that 1950 is a watershed year for black families; thereafter black female-headed families grow rapidly and blacks become more urbanized than whites. Between 1930 and 1950 the rates of black female-headed families, in the United States as a whole and in urban areas, are parallel to the corresponding rates for whites. The black rates are higher than the rates for whites, as one would expect given the black socioeconomic differential and higher rates of widowhood among blacks. It is after 1950 that the rate of female-headed families for blacks diverges significantly from the rate for whites, although the rate of white female- headed families begins to converge with the rate for blacks in about 1970.
What is strikingly different in 1950 is that blacks overtake whites in their level of urbanization. After 1950, blacks become more urbanized than whites, and they continue to urbanize. Whites de-urbanized after 1970. Blacks moved to the cities after World War 11, en masse. And it is after this move that severe family-formation problems began to emerge. The data suggest that the clues to recent family-formation problems among blacks are to be found in the circumstances of black urbanization after 1950.
The post-World War I1 mass migration of blacks to inner-city areas, particularly in the North, presaged their family-formation problems because it both facilitated the civil rights mobilization and made the inner-city residents vul-nerable to postindustrial changes in the economy that trans-formed the opportunity structure of the inner city.
Erol Ricketts, "The Origin of Black Female-Headed Families," Focus Spring/Summer 1989, 32-37
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: the Civil Rights Movement, their true purpose was integration to the point of assimilation so the 'negro' would no longer be a threat
That was Martin Luther King's purpose?
In the sentence you snipped, I specifically said their purpose not King's. So how about you go back and read who they are unless you are being dishonest again. By the way, I think King realized their agenda when he said, “I Fear I May Have Integrated My People Into a Burning House”, after which they assassinated him. Interestingly, King's mother Alberta Williams King tried to warn the people of the plot which led to her assassination as well. It was the same with Malcolm X and so on.
I don't think King's remark had to do significantly with Marxism. The context was the failure of the government to do more for economic inequality and helping the poor, which King felt, brought about contemporary violence and disorder like the 1960s ghetto riots. The villain in King's mind was the US government and the white power structure, not Marxist revolutionaries. https://me.me/i/fear-i-may-have-integrated-my-people-into-a-bur-7464052
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: I was agreeing until you lost me at BLM activists and Black Liberation..... Yea lets slow down there.
Askia, all I'm saying is do research on the founders of BLM and look at who is funding them. Wealthy white elites some of whom don't even live in America but in Europe and are related to or connected with the Nazi families who run the EU.
Anyway, I don't know how this thread devolved into more political mire all I'm saying is that there has been and still is a cabal of powerful white elites who seek to control through subversion and demoralization. They hide their insidious doings through "social justice" and social activism using grievances of minorities especially black peoples to their own ends. They are not interested in black empowerment or prosperity but in blacks being dependent and used like pawns. So beware is all I'm saying on the issue.
I already know the BLM organization is funded by rich Whites who have their own agenda in promoting LGBT.
But the second wave of BLM protests after the George Floyd killing are genuine. Saying it and especially Black liberation are pawns of Marxists is downright false and disrespectful at worse. The protests expressing anger that we are seeing is REAL Black anger. Your posts makes it seem like Black people are incapable of expressing ourselves or having critical thought without being pawns.
The current BLM protests are more grassroot than the one before even with the attempt of the LGBT elites in trying to hijack it. Hell, I'll argue that if anything these protests inspired by Ferguson protestor Darren Seals who was grassroot and who BLM hijacked.
Black liberation doesn't care about Marxism or societal destruction but Blacks having our own autonomy without racist interference. No Black liberation activist preached anarchism.
Edit:
Most Marxists were racist towards Blacks lol.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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