posted
So the general way the the 9th century Zanj revolt has been told by historians (whether afrocentrics, eurocentrics or whatever) is that east african slaves called zanj revolted against the authorities because of the harsh slave conditions in salt marshes of iraq. But, is this historically accurate? Were euro historians just reading reading contemporary state of affairs in the americas into a different historical context and geography? This has been done many times before, for example, saying "white" egyptians enslaved "nubians" because they were black.
Does anyone on this board know a lot about the zanj revolt and have some insight?
Posts: 214 | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
Just to give some more background... The interpretation the zanj revolt was a slave rebellion was 1st advanced in a paper by Theodore Noldeke in the late 1800s and has been upheld by most historians ever since.
But, Alexandre Popovic who wrote what is considered the standard text on the subject couldn't conclude whether or not the revolt was a slave rebellion (despite his book being titled, The Slave Revolt in Iraq).
M.A. Shaban in his book, Islamic History: A.D. 750-1055 (A.H. 132-448), had this to say:
quote:This was the Zanj revolt, one of the most misunderstood episodes in Islamic history. Since Noldeke first wrote about it almost a century ago and introduced the notion that is was a slave revolt, this idea has prevailed and has never been reconsidered. Although he was writing only “sketches”, these outdated misconceptions have become slavishly regurgitated by modern scholars.
quote:All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources.
quote:The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans who had made their home in the region.
Shaban sees the cause of the revolt as a struggle for control of trade from africa into the region, and the revolt as just 1 of several others (ex: the safarids) that happened against the ruling Abbassids.
Ghada Hashem Talhami in a paper on the revolt agrees that it was not a slave rebellion but says: 1.Zanj doesn't refer to east africans or slaves imported from east africa 2.The most significant element of the rebellion were bedouin from the area around Basra 3.The revolt was more one of lower class ppl rebelling against the authorities
So what really happened to cause the revolt and who were the main proponents?
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posted
It was not a single event and it was not just the Zanj (Blacks). Zanj in this case is like Moor. The rebellion became associated with a very visible group in the rebellion in the same way Moor was used.
Zanj was several rebellions that culminated into a oligarchy (war lords). Reminds me a bit of Somalia today. Bunch of Pirates running around under different war lords. Later to be bought off and assimilated.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^^^^ What the hell are you talking about. Zanji applied to a specific group of Africans, it has nothing in common with how "Mauros" became a blanket term in Andalucia. War Lords?? Oligarchy?? What are you talking about??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^ There was no single leader of the Zanj but rather multiple rebellions with various leaders taking charge which by definition is a oligarchy. And sense these people were essentially pirates at this time we refer to the leaders as War Lords similar to leaders in Somalia.
As for the word Zanj - will it means Black or land of the Black in the same way that Khem or Kham means Black or Khemet means land of the Black. Probably came to mean something like Negro later. Moor also basically means the same thing - Black.
Khem - Zanj - Moor - Negro - etc.
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posted
I attended a lecture today on the Zanj rebellion. It appears the orthodox interpretation is still in full swing, despite Shaban's protests.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Zanji/Zanj does not mean "Black" it was the name of the Swahili people of East Africa, the label/blanket term for "Blacks" or Land of the Blacks was "Sud-an" not Zanj, Zanj is no different than Habeshi, Berbera, Tekrur etc.
Second the Zanj Rebellion was an organized effort, what are you talking about no leader??
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ There was no single leader of the Zanj but rather multiple rebellions with various leaders taking charge which by definition is a oligarchy. And sense these people were essentially pirates at this time we refer to the leaders as War Lords similar to leaders in Somalia.
As for the word Zanj - will it means Black or land of the Black in the same way that Khem or Kham means Black or Khemet means land of the Black. Probably came to mean something like Negro later. Moor also basically means the same thing - Black.
Khem - Zanj - Moor - Negro - etc.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
@Osirion... you seem uninformed on the topic and making a guess with no support. Zanj seemed to refer only to a certain group or groups of blacks, not blacks in general. There is disagreement on the origin of the term but judging from the way it was used it didn't mean blacks in general and certainly wasn't used in the same way as moor was. Also, Jari is right that there was a leader (Ali bin Muhammad) and it was organized from the start. The zanj formed their own government in the land they conquered and ran it.
@sundjata, indeed. I have to read some more on the topic and see if Shaban was too sweeping in some of his claims.
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posted
The word Negro may mean Black but in many Western societies it is a term that is used to mean Bantu Blacks.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Zanji/Zanj does not mean "Black" it was the name of the Swahili people of East Africa, the label/blanket term for "Blacks" or Land of the Blacks was "Sud-an" not Zanj, Zanj is no different than Habeshi, Berbera, Tekrur etc.
Second the Zanj Rebellion was an organized effort, what are you talking about no leader??
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ There was no single leader of the Zanj but rather multiple rebellions with various leaders taking charge which by definition is a oligarchy. And sense these people were essentially pirates at this time we refer to the leaders as War Lords similar to leaders in Somalia.
As for the word Zanj - will it means Black or land of the Black in the same way that Khem or Kham means Black or Khemet means land of the Black. Probably came to mean something like Negro later. Moor also basically means the same thing - Black.
Khem - Zanj - Moor - Negro - etc.
Organized effort by a single leader during the entire period we call the Zanj Rebellion? No.
I will say it again, there were many leaders not a single ruler. There were also independent rebellions that culminated together. It was not a single rebellion.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Anyone bother to read primary accounts left by turncoat officials of the actual event?
Nobody's duping "us" but "us" if "we" neglect perusing translations of al~Tabari like the one above.
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posted
Ill admit I have not read Al-Tabari nor Shaban, I will have to read both before I make any sweeping conclusions. Im currently trying to purchase the Mid-eval west Africa book, do you know any online versions of Al-Tabari??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Anyone bother to read primary accounts left by turncoat officials of the actual event?
Indeed, I intend to do so one day I just haven't gotten to it yet. Shaban's claim of no support in the sources for the orthodox historiography is what led me to want to read the sources.
@Jari, i think waines' translation is the only full one in english and it's recent so it'd prob be hard to find an on-line post of it. Lmk if you do though.
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quote:Originally posted by africurious: So the general way the the 9th century Zanj revolt has been told by historians (whether afrocentrics, eurocentrics or whatever) is that east african slaves called zanj revolted against the authorities because of the harsh slave conditions in salt marshes of iraq. But, is this historically accurate? Were euro historians just reading reading contemporary state of affairs in the americas into a different historical context and geography? This has been done many times before, for example, saying "white" egyptians enslaved "nubians" because they were black.
Does anyone on this board know a lot about the zanj revolt and have some insight?
In the Trans Atlantic slave trade we were not enslaved because we are black. We were enslaved because we were useful and low cost labor for plantations. This is not to say that the people that enslaved us were not racists and treated us in a racist way but because we were black was not the motive. It was greed. Also Arab scholars have been known to white wash Islamic history in regard to slavery and racism, may or may not be the case with M.A. Shaban
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Who were YOU enslaved with? Cut all of this "we" crap, you know nothing about slavery or being a slave so stop pretending be a part of some universal "we" that connects blackness with perpetual slavery.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Who were YOU enslaved with? Cut all of this "we" crap, you know nothing about slavery or being a slave so stop pretending be a part of some universal "we" that connects blackness with perpetual slavery.
"were" is obviously not perpetual silly one
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
you seem uninformed on the topic and making a guess with no support. Zanj seemed to refer only to a certain group or groups of blacks, not blacks in general. There is disagreement on the origin of the term but judging from the way it was used it didn't mean blacks in general and certainly wasn't used in the same way as moor was. Also, Jari is right that there was a leader (Ali bin Muhammad) and it was organized from the start. The zanj formed their own government in the land they conquered and ran it. _________________ This posting is from a volunteer Coach Purse|New Nike Shoes|Nike FreePosts: 3 | Registered: Apr 2012
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