JOHN THE MOOR aka Johannes Morus magister camerarius under Frederick II and Conrad. (primary source of bust: citation needed)
Frederick, and later his bastard son and successor as king of Sicily, Manfred, employed a standing army of Muslims warrior, housed in their own military colony, the town of Lucera, charged with the border defense towards the Papal state. Lucera a Muslim community in Siciliy was also where the Imperial treausry was kept, for security reasons, under the supervision of the Imperial Chancellor, Johannes Maurus, i.e. "John the Moor" a household slave and magister camerarius under Frederick II and Conrad. Such were the chamberlains of monasteries or cathedrals, who had charge of the finances, gave notice of chapter meetings, and provided the materials necessary for the various services. In course of time the office became hereditary and titular, but the complexities of the duties necessitated a division of the work, and the office was split up into three: the hereditary and sinecure office of magister camerarius or lord great chamberlain, the more important domestic office of camerarius regis, king's chamberlain or lord chamberlain, and the chamberlains (camerarii) of the exchequer, two in number, who were originally representatives of the chamberlain at the exchequer, and afterwards in conjunction with the treasurer presided over that department.
International Medieval Congress Universtiy of Leeds 8-11 July2002 Hohenstaufen And Their Arab Subjects And Moslems Against Excommunication By Prof. Mahinoud Said Omaran University of Alexandria Faculty of Arts Alexandria - Egypt
On May 1261 Pope Aleander had died and was succeeded by Urban IV (1261-1264). In the meantime, in Germany the war countinued between Alfons of Castile and Richard of Corn-wall, rival Kings of Germany. The Pope offered to arbitrate between them, but Richard rejected the offer and abandoned the enterprise and so did Alfonse(59). The German prrinces, tried of the strife, proposed to reject both claimants and elected Conrandin. This proposal was strongly opposed by the Pope, and threatened to excommunicate any one who attempted to elect a member of Hohestaufen family which had so long been inimical to the Chruch(60).
The situation became very serious for the Hohenstaufen cause, so Manfred bent to the strom ad accepted the claim of the Pope, on condition that he should become the Popets vicar. The Pope came down in triumph and entered Capua. Manfred was ill at ease; he felt that he was encompassed by enemies and traitors, but trusting in his own adroitness he hoped to come out unscathed. He took his way to Lucera where Frederick had stationed the Arabs whom he removed from Sicily. Ever since then the town had been a Arab stronghold and devoted to the Hohenstaufens(61).
John the Morr, a henchman of the old Emperor, was governor. There more than anywhere else. Manfred felt that he would be safe. He expected to be received by John the Moor with open arms. But when he heard that Manfred was a fugitive, and that fortune smiled upon the Papal cause, he put
one of his household, another Arabic, Marchisio, in his place as custodian of the town, made him swear that he would let no one, not even prince Manfred, enter during his absence, and posted off to make terms with the Pope, sending false word to Manfred that he was going on his account. There seemed to be no loyalty to a losing cause anywhere in the Hohenstaufen dominions. Nevertheless, even after Manfred heard of John the Moor’s treachery, he still entertained a hope of getting Lucera. That was his only chance. In Lucera was his father’s treasure; and there, if anywhere, were friends, for the Arabs could hope for but little from the Pope.
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^You see Lioness, that's the trouble with you Albinos, whenever you see a Black face, you feel embolden to tell whatever lie comes to mind.
Obviously there is a deep-seated hatred there that Blacks don't understand. Perhaps one day you will tell us about it. But in the meantime, you Albinos really need to get your lies straight.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^You see Lioness, that's the trouble with you Albinos, whenever you see a Black face, you feel embolden to tell whatever lie comes to mind.
Obviously there is a deep-seated hatred there that Blacks don't understand. Perhaps one day you will tell us about it. But in the meantime, you Albinos really need to get your lies straight.
Mike stop being paranoid I'm just putting up various historians accounts of Johannes Morus. Your using innuendo again. If you think one account is better than another you should say so. Here is some of the info from your above sources. You seem to have brought up Giovanni Moro. Is he one and the same as Johannes Morus? Let's see - This is the first I have heard of him, your links
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Mike this is some interesting stuff you linked. It seems to suggest that Johannes Morus may be the same person as Giovanni Moro but I don't see mention of Giovanni being a treasurer as Johanness aka John the Moor was. It's confusing. We could throw up our hands and say it's all the white man's lie so why bother with any of it?
Anyway if you dig up some more info from books please inform.
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The local populations in these areas of the Roman Empire soon changed Roman names to fit their own dialect, which included dropping the suffixes -us and -es from such names. In the Roman sphere of influence, Johannes became the Italian Giovanni
Johannes Morus = John The Moor = Giovanni Moro
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^You see Lioness, that's the trouble with you Albinos, whenever you see a Black face, you feel embolden to tell whatever lie comes to mind.
Obviously there is a deep-seated hatred there that Blacks don't understand. Perhaps one day you will tell us about it. But in the meantime, you Albinos really need to get your lies straight.
Mike thanks for the post. The hatred they have is based on jealousy.
Interesting how the author of your book however makes ibn Hawqul say their was a gate of the Blacks when other translated him as saying Palermo had been called Gate of the Blacks.
It would be not unlikely that Johannus was also an Arab given the description of the Arabs like the Tamim that were said to be in Palermo. The description of the Tamim is captured in the story of the black-skinned Miskeen el- Darimi of the Banu Tamim who said "my skin is the color of the Arabs".
Neanderdummies like Lioness I agree are truly evil and intentionally so.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike111: [qb]
The Himyarite related Ma'afir tribe was also settled in Palermo (BalHarm). And of course the Himyarites were known as blacks then like the Tamim and most other Arabians.
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dana I fairly posted the info from Mike's links, the timeline and the chapter on Giovanni Moro, so you can stop crying. I was unaware of the alternate names used in books for the same person and welcome more information on Johannes rather than tears dripping.
In the Jeremy Johns book its says Johannes was appointed by Conrad "magistar camerarius" (chamberlain of monasteries or cathedrals, who had charge of the finances, a treasurer) and later an "arcadio" (leader) of the Saracens
In Mike's link on Giovanni aka Johannes (I posted it-tilted "Lucera under Manfred) Johannes is referred to as a servant of Frederick appointed as "custos" (A keeper; a custodian; a superintendent) - I assume of the treasury . Also "secretorum aule particeps" (sharer of secrets ?) and "praepositus"- an offical ( possibly referring to his leadership of the Saracens) The Christians of Italy and the Crusaders preferred the term Saracens for all the Arabs and Muslims of that time.
The two accounts don't seem to present a discrepancy. If somebody wants to read these things closer or post more information on Johannes Morus please do.
dana I think you have fallen for Mike's usual innuedo tactic. He puts up information in a way and with remarks as if he is exposing something. Yet he doesn't make clear what he is exposing. And often you read these things and there isn't even a discrepancy, just Mike tricking up drama. The Muslims invaded and controlled Sicily for a while and ther was an influx of African Muslims at a certain period within that but Johannes Morus was of a later period after the Norman conquest when Christians of the Holy Roman Empire had taken over.
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