Yi people celebrate 'black face festival' China Daily 2009 Two women from the Yi ethnic group plaster black ashes on each other's face during the "black face festival" in Qiubei county, southwest China's Yunnan province, August 15, 2009. The festival is a traditional activity in Qiubei where ancient Yi people used to blacken their faces to expel monsters and kill evils. [Xinhua]
http://news.rednet.cn/c/2009/08/17/1809315.htm People plaster black ashes on each other's face during the "black face festival" in Qiubei county, southwest China's Yunnan province, August 15, 2009.
The Yi or Lolo people are an ethnic group in China, Vietnam, and Thailand. Numbering 8 million, they are the seventh largest of the 55 ethnic minority groups officially recognized by the People's Republic of China. They live primarily in rural areas of Sichuan, Yunnan, Guizhou, and Guangxi, usually in mountainous regions. As of 1999, there were 3,300 "Lô Lô" people living in Hà Giang, Cao Bằng, and Lào Cai provinces in northeastern Vietnam. Most Yi are farmers; herders of cattle, sheep and goats; and nomadic hunters. The Yi speak various Loloish languages, Sino-Tibetan languages closely related to Burmese.
Nearly all the Yi live in mountainous areas, often carving out their existence on the sides of steep mountain slopes far from the cities of China. The altitudinal differences of the Yi areas directly affect the climate and precipitation of these areas. These striking differences are the basis of the old saying that "The weather is different a few miles away" in the Yi area. This is the primary reason why the Yi in various areas are so different from one another in the ways they make a living
Although different groups of Yi refer to themselves in different ways (including Nisu, Sani, Axi, Lolo, Acheh) and sometimes speak mutually unintelligible dialects, they have been grouped into a single ethnicity by the Chinese,
Some scholars believe that the Yi are descended from the ancient Qiang people of today's western China, who are also said to be the ancestors of the Tibetan, Naxi and Qiang peoples. They migrated from southeastern Tibet through Sichuan and into the Yunnan Province, where their largest populations can be found today. They practice a form of animism, led by a shaman priest known as the Bimaw. They still retain a few ancient religious texts written in their unique pictographic script. Their religion also contains many elements of Daoism and Buddhism. Many of the Yi in Liangshan and northwestern Yunnan practiced a complicated form of slavery. People were split into the nuohuo or Black Yi (nobles), qunuo or White Yi (commoners), and slaves. White Yi were free and could own property and slaves but were in a way tied to a lord. Other ethnic groups were held as slaves
Legend
Most Yi believe they have the same ancestor, ꀉꁌꅋꃅ or ꀉꁌꐧꃅ (Axpu Ddutmu or Axpu Jjutmu). It is said that Apu Dumu married three wives and had six sons: each of the wives bore two sons. In the legend, the oldest two sons leading their tribes conquered other aborigines of Yunnan and began to reside in most territory of Yunnan. The youngest two sons led their tribes eastwards and were defeated by Han, before finally making western Guizhou their home and creating the largest quantity of Yi script documents. The other two sons led their tribes across the Jinsha River and dwelled in Liangshan. This group had close intermarriage with the local
Known history
Most Yi live in Liangshan, Chuxiong, and Honghe. At the Lizhou archaeological site (Chinese: 礼州遗址) near Xichang of Liangshan, dating to 3,000 years ago, many artifacts of the Neolithic Age have been discovered. Although no evidence proves that these ancient cultures of stone age have direct correlation with modern Yi people, their descendants, local bronze culture, may have had some influence on Yi people, as the ancestors of Yi people had frequent contact and intermarriage with local tribes, such as Dian (Chinese: 滇), Qiong (Chinese: 邛) and Zuo (Chinese: 笮), during their southwards migration from north eastern edge of Tibetan Plateau. Today, the Yi people still call the city of Xichang as ꀒꎂ (Op Rro). In spite of the affix “or-”, the root “dro” is believed by some scholars as related to the tribe Qiong (Chinese: 邛) as the pronunciation is quite close to the ancient pronunciation of Chinese character 邛.
Much like their Tibetan neighbors, the Yi, specifically the Lolo, actively resisted the Communist occupation of their homeland. This manifested in a large scale armed revolt against the Communist Chinese in 1955, leading to thousands of losses on the Chinese side before the revolt was finally put down. In retribution, the Communist forces staged mass executions in which Lolo men, women, and children were bayoneted and shot. The true scale of these reprisals remains a mystery. After the establishment of the PRC, several Yi autonomous administrative districts of prefecture or county level were set up in Sichuan, Yunnan, and Guizhou. With the development of automotive traffic and telecommunications, the communications among different Yi areas have been increasing sharply.
Brief introduction of Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture and Chinese Yi nationality
(excerpt)
Brief introduction of Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture and Chinese Yi nationality
Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture locates in the southwest of Sichuan province with south to the Jinsha River, north to the Dadu River, east to the Sichuan Basin and west linking Hengduan Mountain, between 100°15'-103°53'E and 26°03'- 29°27'N. It governs 17 counties (cities) and has an area of 6.04 million M2 and a population of 4.73 million including 2.31 million of Yi minority people which acounts for 48.9% of the total and makes it the largest Yi community. Xichang, the state capital, is the centre of the economy, politics and culture. It is a city where spring stays and the world-famous aerospace city.
History backgrounds Socio-economic development in the Yi areas was lopsided before liberation, due to oppression and exploitation by the reactionary ruling class, as well as historical and geographical differences. The socio-economic structure fell by and large into two types – feudalism and slavery. Most of the Yis in Yunnan, Guizhou and Guangxi had entered feudal society earlier on, and a developed landlord economy had emerged in most areas except for remnants of the manorial economy in some areas of northeastern Yunnan and northwestern Guizhou. Slavery remained intact for a long time in the Greater Liangshan Mountain area in Sichuan and the Lesser Liangshan Mountain area in Yunnan.
Slavery kept production at an extremely low level for a long time in the Greater and Lesser Liangshan Mountain areas in Sichuan and Yunnan. While agriculture was the main line of production, land lay waste and production declined strikingly. Slash-and-burn cultivation was still practiced in some mountain areas. The lack of irrigation facilities and adequate manure, coupled with heavy soil erosion, lowered average grain output to less than a ton per hectare. Animal husbandry was a major sideline with sheep making up a large part of the livestock.
For many centuries, barter was the form of trading among the Yis in the Liangshan Mountain areas. Goods for exchange mainly included livestock and grain. Salt, cloth, hardware, needles and threads and other daily necessities were available only in places where Yis and Hans lived together. Occasionally, some Han merchants, guaranteed safe-conduct by Yi headmen, carried goods into the Liangshan Mountain areas.
Due to complex historical reasons, the slave system of the Yis in the Liangshan Mountains lasted till 1949. Before 1949, the Yis in the Liangshan Mountain areas were stratified into four different ranks – "Nuohuo," "Qunuo," "Ajia" and "Xiaxi." The demarcation between the masters and the slaves was insurmountable. The rank of "Nuohuo" was determined by blood lineage and remained permanent, the other ranks could never move up to the position of rulers. "Nuohuo," meaning "black Yi," was the highest rank of society. Being the slave-owning class, Nuohuo made up 7 percent of the total population. "Qunuo," meaning "white Yi," was the highest rank of the ruled and made up 50 percent of the population. This rank was an appendage to the black Yis personally and, as subjects under the slave system, they enjoyed relative independence economically and could control "Ajia" and "Xiaxi" who were inferior to them. "Ajia" made up one third of the population, being rigidly bound to black Yi or Qunuo slave owners, who could freely sell, buy and kill them. "Xiaxi" was the lowest rank, accounting for 10 percent of the population. They had no property, personal rights or freedom, and were regarded as "talking tools."
The founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949 ended the bitter history of enslavement and oppression of the Yis and people of other nationalities in China. The Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture of Sichuan was established in 1952. In the spring of 1958, democratic reforms concluded in the Yi areas in the Greater and Lesser Liangshan Mountains in Sichuan and Yunnan. The reforms destroyed slavery, abolished all privileges of the slave owners, confiscated or requisitioned land, cattle, farm tools, houses and grain from the slave owners, and distributed them among the slaves and other poor people. The democratic reforms inspired the emancipated slaves and poor peasants to reshape their land and expand agricultural production steadily.
Traditional customs In most Yi areas, maize, buckwheat, oat and potato were staples. Rice production was limited. Most poor Yi peasants lived on acorns, banana roots, celery, flowers and wild herbs all the year round. Salt was scarce. In the Yi areas, potatoes cooked in plain water, pickled leaf soup, buckwheat bread and cornmeal were considered good foods, which only the well-to-to Yis could afford. At festivals, boiled meat with salt was the best food, which only slave owners could enjoy.
Drinking, singing and dancing are expected to take place deep in the mountains of Miaoli and Hsinchu when the "Ritual of the Little Black People" (矮靈祭) is performed by the Saisiyat tribe once again this weekend.
For the past 100 years or so, the Saisiyat tribe (賽夏族) has performed the songs and rites of the festival to bring good harvests, ward off bad luck and keep alive the spirit of a race of people who are said to have preceded all others in Taiwan.
In fact, the short, black men the festival celebrates are one of the most ancient types of modern humans on this planet and their kin still survive in Asia today. They are said to be diminutive Africoids and are variously called Pygmies, Negritos and Aeta. They are found in the Philippines, northern Malaysia, Thailand, Sumatra in Indonesia and other places.
Chinese historians called them "black dwarfs" in the Three Kingdoms period (AD 220 to AD 280) and they were still to be found in China during the Qing dynasty (1644 to 1911). In Taiwan they were called the "Little Black People" and, apart from being diminutive, they were also said to be broad-nosed and dark-skinned with curly hair.
After the Little Black People -- and well before waves of Han migrations after 1600 -- came the Aboriginal tribes, who are part of the Austronesian race. They are thought to have come from the Malay Archipelago 6,000 years ago at the earliest and around 1,000 years ago at the latest, though theories on Aborigine migration to Taiwan are still hotly debated. Gradually the Little Black People became scarcer, until a point about 100 years ago, when there was just a small group living near the Saisiyat tribe.
The story goes that the Little Black People taught the Saisiyat to farm by providing seeds and they used to party together. But one day, the Little Black People sexually harassed some Aboriginal women. So, the Saisiyat took revenge and killed them off by cutting a bridge over which they were all crossing. Just two Little Black People survived. Before departing eastward, they taught the Saisiyat about their culture and passed down some of their songs, saying if they did not remember their people they would be cursed and their crops would fail.
The Saisiyat kept their promise and have held the Ritual of the Little Black People every year, though they scaled down the ceremonies during the Japanese colonial period (1895 to 1945). Now the ritual is held every two years on the 10th full moon of the lunar calendar, with a big festival once every 10 years. At this time, the Saisiyat are not supposed to fight and they congregate in their ancestral areas of Miaoli and Hsinchu, in the mountains.
"I've seen it written of as a celebration, but to me it seemed quite a mournful affair, especially in the way the music came across, which was trancelike, a haunting kind of chant with a series of 10 to 15 songs," said long-term Taiwan resident Lynn Miles, who has been to the ritual three times and will be going again this year.
"There's nothing else quite like it in its tone and in its mood. I've been to other festivals but this is non-stop."
Miles said the dances were not set pieces but usually involved holding hands and moving around in a circle, chanting, with those who know the songs doing most of the singing and a shaman figure keeping order.
Pagina 2 van 2 A spokeswoman at the Council of Indigenous Peoples (under the Executive Yuan) said that those who have "unclean thoughts" have their souls snatched by the spirits of the Little Black People and will pass out until the shaman revives them.
Miles said the shaman seemed to serve a public-order function by chasing off those who were too drunk or out of order.
The ceremonies are held in two places. The ritual began yesterday in Nanchuang Township, Miaoli County, and will carry on there until Monday. Rituals start today in Wufeng Township, Hsinchu County, and will last through tomorrow.
Getting there:
To Wufeng:
Route 122 to Wufeng can be accessed off No. 1 Highway near Toufen.
To Nanchuang:
Take western No. 1 Highway. Near Toufen, take Route 124 toward Sanwan to Nanchuang. Shuttle buses will take visitors to the ritual site at Xiangtian Lake.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
Drinking, singing and dancing are expected to take place deep in the mountains of Miaoli and Hsinchu when the "Ritual of the Little Black People" (矮靈祭) is performed by the Saisiyat tribe once again this weekend.
For the past 100 years or so, the Saisiyat tribe (賽夏族) has performed the songs and rites of the festival to bring good harvests, ward off bad luck and keep alive the spirit of a race of people who are said to have preceded all others in Taiwan.
In fact, the short, black men the festival celebrates are one of the most ancient types of modern humans on this planet and their kin still survive in Asia today. They are said to be diminutive Africoids and are variously called Pygmies, Negritos and Aeta. They are found in the Philippines, northern Malaysia, Thailand, Sumatra in Indonesia and other places.
Chinese historians called them "black dwarfs" in the Three Kingdoms period (AD 220 to AD 280) and they were still to be found in China during the Qing dynasty (1644 to 1911). In Taiwan they were called the "Little Black People" and, apart from being diminutive, they were also said to be broad-nosed and dark-skinned with curly hair.
After the Little Black People -- and well before waves of Han migrations after 1600 -- came the Aboriginal tribes, who are part of the Austronesian race. They are thought to have come from the Malay Archipelago 6,000 years ago at the earliest and around 1,000 years ago at the latest, though theories on Aborigine migration to Taiwan are still hotly debated. Gradually the Little Black People became scarcer, until a point about 100 years ago, when there was just a small group living near the Saisiyat tribe.
The story goes that the Little Black People taught the Saisiyat to farm by providing seeds and they used to party together. But one day, the Little Black People sexually harassed some Aboriginal women. So, the Saisiyat took revenge and killed them off by cutting a bridge over which they were all crossing. Just two Little Black People survived. Before departing eastward, they taught the Saisiyat about their culture and passed down some of their songs, saying if they did not remember their people they would be cursed and their crops would fail.
The Saisiyat kept their promise and have held the Ritual of the Little Black People every year, though they scaled down the ceremonies during the Japanese colonial period (1895 to 1945). Now the ritual is held every two years on the 10th full moon of the lunar calendar, with a big festival once every 10 years. At this time, the Saisiyat are not supposed to fight and they congregate in their ancestral areas of Miaoli and Hsinchu, in the mountains.
"I've seen it written of as a celebration, but to me it seemed quite a mournful affair, especially in the way the music came across, which was trancelike, a haunting kind of chant with a series of 10 to 15 songs," said long-term Taiwan resident Lynn Miles, who has been to the ritual three times and will be going again this year.
"There's nothing else quite like it in its tone and in its mood. I've been to other festivals but this is non-stop."
Miles said the dances were not set pieces but usually involved holding hands and moving around in a circle, chanting, with those who know the songs doing most of the singing and a shaman figure keeping order.
Pagina 2 van 2 A spokeswoman at the Council of Indigenous Peoples (under the Executive Yuan) said that those who have "unclean thoughts" have their souls snatched by the spirits of the Little Black People and will pass out until the shaman revives them.
Miles said the shaman seemed to serve a public-order function by chasing off those who were too drunk or out of order.
The ceremonies are held in two places. The ritual began yesterday in Nanchuang Township, Miaoli County, and will carry on there until Monday. Rituals start today in Wufeng Township, Hsinchu County, and will last through tomorrow.
Getting there:
To Wufeng:
Route 122 to Wufeng can be accessed off No. 1 Highway near Toufen.
To Nanchuang:
Take western No. 1 Highway. Near Toufen, take Route 124 toward Sanwan to Nanchuang. Shuttle buses will take visitors to the ritual site at Xiangtian Lake.
Here is the problem with this story. It promotes a lie that white Northern Asian types were the original 'aborigines' of Taiwan. No they weren't. Right up to the invasion of the Chinese and Japanese there were black Taiwanese aboriginals.
quote: After the Little Black People -- and well before waves of Han migrations after 1600 -- came the Aboriginal tribes, who are part of the Austronesian race. They are thought to have come from the Malay Archipelago 6,000 years ago at the earliest and around 1,000 years ago at the latest, though theories on Aborigine migration to Taiwan are still hotly debated. Gradually the Little Black People became scarcer, until a point about 100 years ago, when there was just a small group living near the Saisiyat tribe.
Ryuzo Torii was a Japanese anthropologist imitating white supremacists from America in creating 'racial' categories for other Asians. He documented the aborigines in Taiwan and populations in Korea and elsewhere and was partly the reason for Japanese mistreatment of these populations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2HNL52B4TQ
A lot of the Taiwanese aborigines you see today are partly mixed with Japanese in addition to Han Chinese and other Northern Asian folks.
Posts: 8898 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Discussion from a recent conference on how ethnographic postcards were used to support racist agendas (duh the 18th and 19th century Europeans originated that) in Asia. The key point here that they won't talk about is that the Japanese were following in the footsteps of the European and American colonists of Asia who were doing this long before them and imposed their ideas on Asia. In many ways Japan was simply an Asian imitation of European colonial culture, right down to the same nonsensical ethnic and 'racial' concepts. Keep in mind that Japan rose to power in this period because of the Meiji restoration which was nothing less than a whole sale attempt to imitate the industrial racists slave complex of Europe and America. Many Japanese studied in America and Germany and in turn many American and German educators went to Japan. But of course today's scholars won't admit that this is simply the result of Europeans indoctrinating these people to follow white supremacist dogma. And this is one reason white supremacy loves Asia so much they are very loyal to and easily manipulated by the goals and agendas of the European imperial powers. To the point where they can built up and then torn down at will to show 'who is the boss'.
posted
Yi might link to Yama/Ama/Cham/Samre/Siam/Xyambuatlaya Xy = sky = Tien(Chin) = Te(Mongol) = Zi(on)(Hebr)
This Xy prefix is not found in rainforest pygmy languages AFAIK. Closest to it is in Bantu: To = topan = forest canopy pygmies: endura (forest interior)
Jade trade from Taiwan thru SEAsia Dogs from PhuQuoc island pulled bowlboats (tall curly tail and scruff of neck common in both Phu Quoc ridgeback and Husky sleddogs).
Posts: 2021 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2014
| IP: Logged |
After the Little Black People -- and well before waves of Han migrations after 1600 -- came the Aboriginal tribes, who are part of the Austronesian race. They are thought to have come from the Malay Archipelago 6,000 years ago at the earliest and around 1,000 years ago at the latest, though theories on Aborigine migration to Taiwan are still hotly debated. Gradually the Little Black People became scarcer, until a point about 100 years ago, when there was just a small group living near the Saisiyat tribe.
Here is the problem with this story. It promotes a lie that white Northern Asian types were the original 'aborigines' of Taiwan. No they weren't.
If you read the paragraph Doug is referring to he says in the paragaph they say that white Northern Asian types were the original 'aborigines' of Taiwan.
Of course it doesn't say that. What is he reading?
It says according to legend first there were the Little Black People
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Discussion from a recent conference on how ethnographic postcards were used to support racist agendas (duh the 18th and 19th century Europeans originated that) in Asia. The key point here that they won't talk about is that the Japanese were following in the footsteps of the European and American colonists of Asia who were doing this long before them and imposed their ideas on Asia. In many ways Japan was simply an Asian imitation of European colonial culture, right down to the same nonsensical ethnic and 'racial' concepts. Keep in mind that Japan rose to power in this period because of the Meiji restoration which was nothing less than a whole sale attempt to imitate the industrial racists slave complex of Europe and America. Many Japanese studied in America and Germany and in turn many American and German educators went to Japan. But of course today's scholars won't admit that this is simply the result of Europeans indoctrinating these people to follow white supremacist dogma. And this is one reason white supremacy loves Asia so much they are very loyal to and easily manipulated by the goals and agendas of the European imperial powers. To the point where they can built up and then torn down at will to show 'who is the boss'.
posted
Funny you talk about the aboriginal Taiwanese . They started me on this journey close to 10ya, I was shocked to learn these people were "Negroid". Investigating opened a whole new world to me.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^ As I've tried to explain to Doug and others there is confusion about the phrase "aboriginal Taiwanese" which did NOT refer to the small statured black people but rather to the Malay or Austronesian speaking folks who came to dominate the island before Chinese invasion. One would think the term aboriginal would be applied to the first inhabitants who were the black Asians, but instead it is applied to the non-black indigenes.
By the way, this is a first I've heard of Aeta presence on Taiwan. Although I'm not at all surprised by this. Virtually all modern Austronesian islanders have legends of small black people who were the first inhabitants and that includes Polynesians as far east as Hawaii.
By the way, lioness what exactly is the purpose of this thread. It has nothing to do with Egypt and only nominally has anything to do with black people. Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^ As I've tried to explain to Doug and others there is confusion about the phrase "aboriginal Taiwanese" which did NOT refer to the small statured black people but rather to the Malay or Austronesian speaking folks who came to dominate the island before Chinese invasion. One would think the term aboriginal would be applied to the first inhabitants who were the black Asians, but instead it is applied to the non-black indigenes.
By the way, this is a first I've heard of Aeta presence on Taiwan. Although I'm not at all surprised by this. Virtually all modern Austronesian islanders have legends of small black people who were the first inhabitants and that includes Polynesians as far east as Hawaii.
By the way, lioness what exactly is the purpose of this thread. It has nothing to do with Egypt and only nominally has anything to do with black people.
I posted in Egyptology to get better quality replies than in AE.
They apply the term ""aboriginal Taiwanese" to Austronesians. Legends of "The Little Black" people is not enough to establish populaltion history, perhaps Negrito is the proper Ethnography. Maybe it's more approriate to call the Negritos the aboriginals. I find the term "aboriginal" can be problematic when you get technical. An inidigenous population that still has surviving members. Then what if very ancient human remains are found where they live? Then they aren't the aboriginals? - or as in this Taiwan example
Taiwan Today New evidence of Negrito presence unearthed in Taiwan 2010
A piece of earthenware with skull engravings recently found at the Kavayavayan site in Dawu Township, Taitung County, provides evidence of the presence in Taiwan of ethnic Negritos, said local cultural worker Xu Zhi-jian.
This group of people is thought to have inhabited Taiwan before the arrival of the present day aboriginal groups, according to historians.
Xu unearthed the pottery fragment recently and he believes it belongs to the Negritos, “because Taiwan’s aboriginal tribes would never carve such inauspicious symbols.”
His research into collections of excavated artifacts from 13 of Taiwan’s aboriginal groups showed no examples of skull engravings.
According to aboriginal legend, Kavayavayan, which means “place of work” in the Paiwan language, was the last habitat of the Negrito people before they vanished from the island centuries ago. The reason for their disappearance remains unknown, with some believing that Paiwan tribesmen who moved into the area killed them off.
However, Li Kun-xiu, an archeological researcher at the National Museum of Prehistory, said the pottery fragment could belong to local Paiwan, who were known to revere the gods, claiming the carving is not of a human skull but of a god.
He noted that pottery pieces with skull engravings had earlier been found at the Chiu-hsiang-lan site north of Dawu, and they are believed to be at least 1,200 years old.
But Xu pointed out that Paiwan engravings mostly feature hundred-pace snakes and the sun.
Li said there is too little archeological evidence to determine whether the pottery fragment is connected to a Negrito people. He said if such a group did in fact inhabit the island, sites containing their artifacts are likely located deep in the nearby mountains, adding that surveys of reported sites in the region have already been planned.
_______________
"Negritos" celebrated as early Taiwan settlers
WUFENG VILLAGE, TAIWAN | BY RALPH JENNINGS Reuters 2008
Chinese have long been the dominant race in Taiwan, trailed by a tiny Asian aboriginal population. The government says so. Historians agree.
But they seldom mention a group of short, dark-skinned people who are believed to be among the oldest settlers in the island.
"Most people don't know, as this is passed on by word of mouth," said Wu Yu-ling, an oral history master's student at Tung Hua University in Taiwan. "I knew it because it was my research topic. It's a precious piece of history that should be studied."
These dark-skinned people are believed to be ethnically similar to Negritos, a term that covers several ethnic groups in isolated parts of Southeast Asia.
Although they share the dark skin and short stature of African pygmy populations, they are genetically distant from Africans and their exact origin and migration route to Asia remain a mystery.
Those who know the legacy best in Taiwan belong to an existing aboriginal group that killed what they believe to be the last village of Negritos in a battle over women 1,000 to 2,000 years ago.
The group that remains, the Saisiyat, dances for three straight bonfire-lit nights every two years to remember them. Their latest memorial ended early on Monday morning.
"There's a bit of guilt, so we're apologising to them," said Chu Fung-lu, master of ceremonies for the memorial held in Wufeng Village deep in the mountains of central Taiwan. "We want them to protect us, to give us safety."
Taiwan's Negritos, gone for good now may have reached Taiwan from Madagascar via the islands of Southeast Asia, scholars say.
Taiwan's Council of Aboriginal Affairs quietly acknowledges the dark-skinned tribe, called the "small people." Some scholars say that as many as 90,000 may have lived in Taiwan.
Because the lost tribe excelled in farming, the Saisiyat borrowed their agricultural knowledge, today's group elders say. The two groups got on until the dark-skinned men took an interest in women from the Saisiyat, a group with lighter, brown skin and Asian features, Chu said.
The Saisiyat, he said, forced a battle, cornering so many people on a bridge that the entire tribe drowned when warriors tipped it into a fast-flowing mountain river.
"But we're not afraid of their ghosts coming back, because they, too, were in the wrong," Chu said.
All of Taiwan's estimated 7,000 ethnic Saisiyat are expected to drop at some time during the memorial. At the opening this past weekend, about 200 watched fire-wielding dancers in costumes decorated with musical chimes.
As the events are seldom publicized, most Taiwan people do not know about their island's Negrito legacy. Ethnic Chinese make up 98 percent of Taiwan's 23 million population.
"Most don't know because the Han Chinese focus on their own history," said Pan Chiu-jung, curator of a Saisiyat cultural museum in Taiwan.
_____________________________
^^^ Notice here in the title the Negritos (no longer existant in Taiwan) are called "settlers" while the Saisiyat are called "aboriginal" That's another issue, Do you apply "aboriginal" to extant populations? -and is there anthropological evidence to support their presence?
Reconstructing Austronesian population history in Island Southeast Asia
Mark Lipson Po-Ru Loh Nick Patterson Priya Moorjani Ying-Chin Ko Mark Stoneking Bonnie Berger David Reich AffiliationsContributionsCorresponding authors Nature Communications 5, Article number: 4689 doi:10.1038/ncomms5689
Received 24 February 2014 Accepted 14 July 2014
Abstract Abstract• Introduction• Results• Discussion• Methods• Additional information• References• Acknowledgements• Author information• Supplementary information Austronesian languages are spread across half the globe, from Easter Island to Madagascar. Evidence from linguistics and archaeology indicates that the ‘Austronesian expansion,’ which began 4,000–5,000 years ago, likely had roots in Taiwan, but the ancestry of present-day Austronesian-speaking populations remains controversial. Here, we analyse genome-wide data from 56 populations using new methods for tracing ancestral gene flow, focusing primarily on Island Southeast Asia. We show that all sampled Austronesian groups harbour ancestry that is more closely related to aboriginal Taiwanese than to any present-day mainland population. Surprisingly, western Island Southeast Asian populations have also inherited ancestry from a source nested within the variation of present-day populations speaking Austro-Asiatic languages, which have historically been nearly exclusive to the mainland. Thus, either there was once a substantial Austro-Asiatic presence in Island Southeast Asia, or Austronesian speakers migrated to and through the mainland, admixing there before continuing to western Indonesia.
A total of 14 populations were best modelled as two-way admixed (Supplementary Table 10): all eight from the Philippines (with Taiwan-related and Negrito ancestry), four from eastern Indonesia (with Taiwan-related and Melanesian ancestry), and both from Oceania (Fiji and Polynesia, merged from ref. 27; also Taiwan-related and Melanesian).
For Toraja, we could not distinguish between Negrito and Melanesian
We also considered the possibility that the direction of flow for this ‘Austronesian’ ancestry component could have been reversed, with an origin in Indonesia or the Philippines and a northward spread to Taiwan. Because of migrations, it is impossible to determine with certainty where ancestral populations lived based on present-day samples, but the fact that the aboriginal Taiwanese populations in our data set, Ami and Atayal, are unadmixed (to within the limits of our resolution), whereas the AN component appears in admixed form in all other AN-speaking populations from ISEA, can be most parsimoniously explained by a Taiwan-to-ISEA direction of gene flow. We verified that Ami and Atayal have no detectable signature of admixture both by the three-population test30, 37 (Supplementary Table 5) and by testing them as putatively admixed in MixMapper with a scaffold tree made up of the other 16 original scaffold populations. In the latter analysis, we found that both Ami and Atayal returned best-fitting positions that indicated that they are properly modelled as unadmixed, adjacent to Jiamao (Supplementary Table 15). On the other hand, all other AN-speaking populations, including those with no signal of admixture from the three-population test, continued to fit robustly as admixed on this reduced scaffold, with the AN component now closest to Jiamao, as expected (Supplementary Table 15). Thus, the absence of admixture in Ami and Atayal allows us to conclude that they have a qualitatively different history from other AN-speaking populations in ISEA and that our inferred directionality of gene flow, with Taiwan as the source, is more parsimonious and a better fit to the data.
[/b]The second and third ancestry components we infer for AN-speaking populations are Melanesian and Negrito. All admixed groups we tested contain at least one of these components, which we believe reflect admixture with indigenous populations in ISEA. The Melanesian component is closely related to Papuans and is found in the highest proportions among our study populations in easternmost Indonesia and in Fiji (Fig. 2). The Negrito component, meanwhile, forms a deep clade with Papuans and is found in populations from the Philippines and western ISEA (Fig. 2). We treat this ancestry as deriving from a single ancient source because it clusters phylogenetically across admixed populations, with the branching positions from the scaffold tree inferred to be very similar (Fig. 1b). We use the name ‘Negrito’ to describe this ancestry based on the fact that it occurs in the greatest proportion in Philippine Negrito populations. The Negrito ancestry in western ISEA could be a result of admixture with aboriginal people living on these islands or alternatively of prior admixture in the Philippines or on the mainland. We note that with MixMapper, we are unable to determine the precise branching position of this component in three-way admixed populations (see Methods), which would in principle shed light on this question. We are also unable to rule out a small proportion of Negrito ancestry in eastern Indonesia and Oceania—which might be plausible if AN speakers migrated from Taiwan through the Philippines first and admixed at that time with indigenous peoples—or a small proportion of Melanesian ancestry in the Philippines, but the large genetic drift separating the branching positions of the two components (Melanesian and Negrito) provides strong evidence that they reflect at least two ancestral sources (Fig. 1).[/b]
Asian Negritos are not one population By Razib Khan | July 21, 2011 8:39 pm
As suggested by the term Negrito refers to a range of populations which are characterized by small size and African-like features (very dark skin and frizzy hair). In general their distribution is limited to Southeast Asia (there are suggestions that a Negrito population may only recently have gone extinct in Australia’s rainforests, but that’s speculative. On a more antique scale there are records which may be interpreted to suggest the existence of Negritos in Taiwan as late as 1900, and in southern China within the past 1,000 years). So you can bracket their distribution from the Andaman Islands to the Philippines, with isolated groups in the Malay peninsula. Negritos are presumed to be the original inhabitants of Southeast Asia before the arrival of rice farmers from the north. Like the Pygmies of Africa most of the Negritos speak languages whic hare known in other populations. Those of the Philippines speak Austronesian dialects. Interestingly those of Malaysia speak an Austro-Asiatic language, and so have affinities with many groups to their north linguistically, being surrounded by Austronesian speakers. Only the Andaman Islanders have a distinctive language, which makes sense seeing as how they have been relatively isolated from mainland Asian influences.....
What’s clearly evident here is that the largest genetic distance across any two inferred populations is between the Malaysian and Philippine Negrito clusters!
Observe that Philippine Negrito cluster tends to have an affinity for Austronesians and the Malaysian Negrito one has one for the Austro-Asiatics. You can tell from the different tribes that there’s varied admixture with Austronesians in the former case, but what about the Malaysian Negritos?
Malaysian Negritos ~1900
But these populations had their own population structure and distinctions. My bet would be that the Malaysian Negritos are closer to the Onge of the Andaman Islanders, and that these two groups emerged out of a western branch of Sundalanders. The Philippine Negritos are from an eastern branch, and their closer affinity to Melanesians may be due to longstanding gene flow across the two populations (another option is that very old Austronesian admixture in both has shifted their non-Austronesian components closer together in allele frequency). Overall, I suspect that the past ~10,000 years have been radically different from the past insofar as population replacement and expansion has occurred on a scale never before seen due to the demographic impact of agriculture. The remaining Negritos may be the tip of the iceberg in terms of the genetic diversity which disappeared as the hunters gave way to the farmers.
posted
However, the short statured Negritos may have nothing to do with the slave master "Black Yi" of the Yi people, My guess is there's no relation. So if I could edit this thread I would because that blackface festival, which is related to the Negritos, form what I am reading, seems to have no relation to the Black Yi who were probably similar looking darker Southern Chinese and the White Yi perhaps of the same stock, the colors here probably not representing skin
quote: wiki-
Many of the Yi in Liangshan and northwestern Yunnan practiced a complicated form of slavery. People were split into the nuohuo or Black Yi (nobles), qunuo or White Yi (commoners), and slaves. White Yi were free and could own property and slaves but were in a way tied to a lord. Other ethnic groups were held as slaves
quote:
Yun Gao et al 2011
Due to complex historical reasons, the slave system of the Yis in the Liangshan Mountains lasted till 1949. Before 1949, the Yis in the Liangshan Mountain areas were stratified into four different ranks – "Nuohuo," "Qunuo," "Ajia" and "Xiaxi." The demarcation between the masters and the slaves was insurmountable. The rank of "Nuohuo" was determined by blood lineage and remained permanent, the other ranks could never move up to the position of rulers. "Nuohuo," meaning "black Yi," was the highest rank of society. Being the slave-owning class, Nuohuo made up 7 percent of the total population. "Qunuo," meaning "white Yi," was the highest rank of the ruled and made up 50 percent of the population. This rank was an appendage to the black Yis personally and, as subjects under the slave system, they enjoyed relative independence economically and could control "Ajia" and "Xiaxi" who were inferior to them. "Ajia" made up one third of the population, being rigidly bound to black Yi or Qunuo slave owners, who could freely sell, buy and kill them. "Xiaxi" was the lowest rank, accounting for 10 percent of the population. They had no property, personal rights or freedom, and were regarded as "talking tools."
posted
Malay is as much a religious as ethnic or linguistic designation, in Malaysia today. A group of negritos/Orang Asli that decide to convert to Islam (mostly for economic reasons) will be considered Malay, and will adopt some Malay customs, same thing in Borneo with the Dayak tribes etc.
I had many Malay school friends, some with straight hair and light complexion, some with frizzy hair and dark complexion, most short but some as tall as I (6'), all "Malay". I've read that Malays are most similar to Cambodians, probably more true of the paddy rice-growing Malays than those upland.
I knew a white American guy who married an aboriginal Taiwanese, her eyes were noticeably rounder than the many Taiwan Chinese I've known, her complexion was the same but her long hair was more like AmerIndian (wavy-straight) than Chinese.
The whole South East Asia region, reaching up to Japan, has lots of admixture, partly due to lowering of sea level during Ice Age period and later rising.
First H&G pygmies from Africa/India, followed by wave after wave of various people moving in who had distinctly different housing and agriculture.
Pygmies: small body size, woven-dome huts Negritos: small to medium body size, non-dome hut
Posts: 2021 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2014
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Malay was or rather is an ethno-linguistic grouping. Since when did it become religious let alone identified with Islam??! So what about the Malayan or Indonesian people who are not Muslim or even my people-- Filipinos?? For Muslim Malay to dare associate religion let alone Islam with being Malay is absurd! The funny thing is let those same Muslim Malay go to Saudi Arabia and see how the original/Arab Muslims i.e. the people of Muhammad treat them, especially the women no matter how pious they behave!!
By the way, the 'Negritos' of Asia have as much to do with the Pygmies of Africa as non-black Asians do. Pygmies of Africa are descended from peoples who never left Africa while the Negritos like other Asians who are not black are descended from the first people to leave Africa.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
In Malaysia, a Malay is a Muslim, legally, but a muslim Chinese/Arab/Thai/Philipino/Indonesian/Indian is not necessarily a Malay, and a Christian Malaysian is by definition not Malay. Its politics. I wanted it known, because, as you said, Malay is usually thought of as an ethno-linguistic group.
I define Pygmies by their rainforest habitat, H&G, body size and dwelling type; I see Negritos as admixed pygmies, with genetic, cultural and linguistic heritage partly due to non-pygmy peoples, usually agricultural immigrants with squared housing. The key is whether the women weave and leaf the hut. Skin and facial features and body size vary but the wickerattan weave and shingleave dome don't.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^ As I've tried to explain to Doug and others there is confusion about the phrase "aboriginal Taiwanese" which did NOT refer to the small statured black people but rather to the Malay or Austronesian speaking folks who came to dominate the island before Chinese invasion. One would think the term aboriginal would be applied to the first inhabitants who were the black Asians, but instead it is applied to the non-black indigenes.
By the way, this is a first I've heard of Aeta presence on Taiwan. Although I'm not at all surprised by this. Virtually all modern Austronesian islanders have legends of small black people who were the first inhabitants and that includes Polynesians as far east as Hawaii.
By the way, lioness what exactly is the purpose of this thread. It has nothing to do with Egypt and only nominally has anything to do with black people.
If you read my post you will see that I said that this myth was a lie. Black folks in Asia came in all shapes and sizes and all aboriginal black populations in Asia were not 'negritoes'. Some people don't want to acknowledge their black ancestry and this has nothing to do with Negritoes. Malays were all originally black as well even up to 100 years ago.
And a lot of this confusion about what "aboriginal" populations existed in Asia originates with the white supremacist anthropologists who were tryig to put white people into the history of any population they deemed as having 'superior' culture all over the world using pseudoscience and lies.
From the book, the 'Great White Tribes in Filipinas'
quote:The legendary white tribe that is said to wander in the mountains of Mindoro is but distantly related to the Great White Tribe now scattered through the greater part of Filipinia. Extending from the Babuyanes off Luzon, to Tawi-Tawi and Sibutu off the coast of Borneo, the Great White Tribe has made its presence felt throughout the archipelago.
The following pages are the record of my own impressions and experiences in the Philippines. The few historical and geographical allusions made have been selected only as they were significant, explanatory, picturesque. A logical arrangement of the chapters will enable the reader to survey the islands as a great bird hovering above might do—will make the map of Filipinia “look like a postage-stamp.”
I promise that the reader shall be introduced to all the most important members of the Great White Tribe, as well as to the representatives of races brown and black. We will peep through the hedge together as the [4]savages and pagans execute their grotesque dances or perform their sacrifices to the god of the volcano. Furthermore, the reader shall attend the Oroquieta Ball with Maraquita and Don Julian, or, if he likes, with “Foxy Grandpa” and “The Arizona Babe.”
I ought to dedicate this book to many people,—to that wonderful brown baby Primitivo, who has written that he “loves me the most best of all the world;” to “Fresno Bill,” that charter member of the Great White Tribe, with whom I have knocked around from Zamboanga to Vigan; or to that coterie of college men in old Manila who extended me so many courtesies while I was there. I send them all my compliments from the homeland, and ask the reader, if he will, to do likewise.
And this applies to Taiwan as well since the aboriginal populations that were black in Taiwan 100 years ago were not 'negritoes'.
This idea of Negritoes being some kind of 'isolate' population in Asia separate from other Asians is due to the race theories of the 18th and 19th century that originated in Europe. They wanted to make Asians into a separate race and therefore distinct from 'Negroes'. So they simply went all over Asia making up racial types by looking at features and arbitrarily lumping folks together as a 'race'. And a lot of times the populations they lumped into other races were also black but they were trying to obscure that fact through these new racial categories. And unfortunately to this day this nonsense is still present in Asia as much of their educational system was based on colonial imperial doctrine.
posted
^ I never said all aboriginal peoples of Southeast Asia were of the so-called 'Negrito' type! What I am saying is that up until a few centuries ago even before the Chinese immigrations the Malay peoples by and large although darker in complexions were not black and even distinguished themselves from the black aboriginal populaces!
And yes I am more than aware of what whites have tried to do with the history of my people! The so-called "Great White Tribes" they were referring to weren't light in complexion as northeast Asians but because of their darker tone were actually included as "Brown Mediterraneans" [sic]!! Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I never said all aboriginal peoples of Southeast Asia were of the so-called 'Negrito' type! What I am saying is that up until a few centuries ago even before the Chinese immigrations the Malay peoples by and large although darker in complexions were not black and even distinguished themselves from the black aboriginal populaces!
And yes I am more than aware of what whites have tried to do with the history of my people! The so-called "Great White Tribes" they were referring to weren't light in complexion as northeast Asians but because of their darker tone were actually included as "Brown Mediterraneans" [sic]!!
The point is these 'brown' folks were the same complexion in most cases as the Negritoes! So they were black dammit. These people are just making up **** to separate folks from their true origins. That is the point. Idiots keep buying into this nonsense trying to pretend that the facts can be made up at will. All these people were black. It isn't that complex. The only people claiming that the Malays were a different "race" than other Asians were white people. That is why they go all over the world and categorize people by various shades of skin color and any variation in features so they can claim that such and such population came from 'the white race' when in reality they are talking about blacks or mixed black mulattoes. The point is that no matter how 'brown' they are they have to make you think that 'white genes' are dominant and aboriginal even though the people being described are BLACKS. Because they are simply trying to omit, cover up and deny this simple fact. This also shows how arbitrary and nonsensical this 'racial' scheme is. On one hand a group of black folks can be called negritoes because they got curly hair but the exact same black folks will be called something else just because their hair is a little straight or they are muslim. This is nonsense. They are the same people.
posted
^ So the above people, especially in the colored photos are 'black' now??! I hate to break it to you Doug but not all populations are not divided neatly into 'black' and 'white'. There are shades in between hence 'brown' complexions. The people in the colored photos are obviously not the same color as Aeta (Negrito) which is why they distinguished themselves from the Aeta with the latter as being black.
Even the black-and-white photo above can be misleading because the poor lighting and lack of true complexion may give the impression that they are darker than they really were. I am not saying that they were necessarily lighter. There were ruling families on the Malay Peninsula were quite dark even black! My point is to say that all the Malay peoples were is false. These are my people by the way.
Formosan (indigenous Taiwanese)
Ifugao (Filipinos)
If you want to claim all these people as 'black' be my guest, but that is not how we describe ourselves.
Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ So the above people, especially in the colored photos are 'black' now??! I hate to break it to you Doug but not all populations are not divided neatly into 'black' and 'white'. There are shades in between hence 'brown' complexions. The people in the colored photos are obviously not the same color as Aeta (Negrito) which is why they distinguished themselves from the Aeta with the latter as being black.
What Djehuti is saying is that these people are not dark enough to be black, they are brown people
^ What Doug is saying is that they ARE dark enough to be black, that all brown skinned people are black people and that Malaysians are either black or white and it doesn't matter what they choose to call themselves, it's measurable color
BLACK MALAYSIAN
WHITE MALAYSIAN aboriginal Penan man, Sarawak, Malaysian Borneo
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ So the above people, especially in the colored photos are 'black' now??! I hate to break it to you Doug but not all populations are not divided neatly into 'black' and 'white'. There are shades in between hence 'brown' complexions. The people in the colored photos are obviously not the same color as Aeta (Negrito) which is why they distinguished themselves from the Aeta with the latter as being black.
Even the black-and-white photo above can be misleading because the poor lighting and lack of true complexion may give the impression that they are darker than they really were. I am not saying that they were necessarily lighter. There were ruling families on the Malay Peninsula were quite dark even black! My point is to say that all the Malay peoples were is false. These are my people by the way.
If you want to claim all these people as 'black' be my guest, but that is not how we describe ourselves.
Anyway you know my stance on this issue. I don't play semantic games. Black people come in all shapes and sizes and there are no features that are not found among black populations around the planet. The idea that somehow there are some features among certain humans that don't ultimately originate with black aboriginals of some shape or fashion is blatantly false. This is what I am talking about, which is biology. There is no "other" population that magically sprang up in Asia and somehow magically was distinct from their black forefathers. Almost all Asian features derive from black aboriginal populations all over Asia. They were not limited to South Asia and that includes the Malays. This nonsense about Malays being "dark as blacks" but not black is stupidity. That proves my point. Those are the original features of not only Malays but ALL ASIANS and ALL HUMANS. And the evidence for this was and is still present even though the white racists and their ilk have done a lot to erase it.
Of course there are and have been other people of different shades in Asia, but that doesn't change the fact that they ultimately originate with black aboriginal populations.
And to this day a lot of folks are simply trying to run away from this blackness.
posted
Orang puteh white person European Orang hitam black person African Orang asli aboriginal person Orang pribumi Borneo non-muslim Aboriginals Orang Melayu Malay person
Many Tamils are darker than most Malay, most Malay are darker than most Chinese. British encouraged great numbers of Tamils and Chinese to come work in Malaya, today about half of Malaysians are Malay.
The idea of black or white Malaysians doesn't fit their frame of reference, they are a blend, with similarity to dark Yemeni, Mexican, KhoiSan ; most asli people are also.
posted
please, no long URLs in the thread the format is messed up now, too wide
solutions
1) after you copy and paste the URL come back and delete most of the last part of it Then do a preview to check In the prievew click the URL and see if it goes to other address it usually remembers the whole URL and goes to the web address -despite part of it being deleted for posting purposing
2) It usually doesn't work on PDFs and occasionaly on some addresses in that case after hitting the full reply from button then use the URL button
3) Or just always use the URL button as in step 2 name it "LINK" or something no problems, the link conceals the full URL
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
And like I said most of these differences are based on the writings of white Authors who wanted to segregated black "savage" aborigines from "civilized" populations and of course the "civilized" populations had to be a different race (as per the terms of white supremacy):
The modern definition of Malay is basically a mixture of various populations from all over the place to the point where it is pretty much meaningless. And that is the point. The MAIN distinction is that the "malays" are supposedly representative of "civilized" populations in Malaysia and therefore this is associated with non black people.
quote: Jakuns are an ethnic group recognised as Orang Asli (indigenous people) of the Malay Peninsula. They are closely related to the Malay people and are probably a branch of the Proto-Malay, whom the 19th century researcher A. R. Wallace called "savage Malays". They are also related to the Orang Laut, another indigenous group that lives along the coasts and depends on fishing.
They are the largest group in the Proto-Malay division of the Orang Asli, and the second-largest Orang Asli group overall after the Semai.
The Jakuns are taller than the other aboriginal peoples of the Malay Peninsula, the Semang and Sakai tribes. Jakun people typically have olive-brown to dark copper skin color. Some have intermarried with ethnic Malays or Chinese. Those who marry Malays largely convert to Islam; families with Chinese ancestors may practise Chinese folk religion in addition to Jakun customs.
And like I said the only difference from the original Malay populations of the 18th and 19th century as described by white racists were that one group were Muslims(and civilized) and the other were not. You also see this strong black element in the early populations of the Moros as seen by the Americans in the Philippines.
quote: Malays are an ethnic group of Austronesian peoples predominantly inhabiting the Malay Peninsula, eastern Sumatra, southernmost parts of Thailand, south coast Burma, island of Singapore, coastal Borneo including Brunei, West Kalimantan, and coastal Sarawak and Sabah, and the smaller islands which lie between these locations - that collectively known as the Alam Melayu. These locations today are part of the modern nations of Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Brunei, Burma and Thailand.
There is considerable genetic, linguistic, cultural, and social diversity among the many Malay subgroups, mainly due to hundreds of years of immigration and assimilation of various regional ethnicity and tribes within Maritime Southeast Asia. Historically, the Malays population is descended primarily from the earlier Malayic-speaking tribes that settled in the region, who founded several ancient maritime trading states and kingdoms, notably Brunei, Old Kedah, Langkasuka, Gangga Negara, Old Kelantan, Negara Sri Dharmaraja, Malayu and Srivijaya, and the later Cham and Mon-Khmer settlers.
Anyway you know my stance on this issue. I don't play semantic games. Black people come in all shapes and sizes and there are no features that are not found among black populations around the planet. The idea that somehow there are some features among certain humans that don't ultimately originate with black aboriginals of some shape or fashion is blatantly false. This is what I am talking about, which is biology. There is no "other" population that magically sprang up in Asia and somehow magically was distinct from their black forefathers. Almost all Asian features derive from black aboriginal populations all over Asia. They were not limited to South Asia and that includes the Malays. This nonsense about Malays being "dark as blacks" but not black is stupidity. That proves my point. Those are the original features of not only Malays but ALL ASIANS and ALL HUMANS. And the evidence for this was and is still present even though the white racists and their ilk have done a lot to erase it.
Of course there are and have been other people of different shades in Asia, but that doesn't change the fact that they ultimately originate with black aboriginal populations.
I guess I misunderstood Doug. According to what he's saying above all of the people below having descended from the first blacks are therefore black as well.
I don't think Doug or Djehuti represent the manistream American definition of "black"
the manistream American definition of "black" is -someone who looks unmistakeably primarily African That includes aboriginal Austrailians and lighter skinned brown people who have African fetatures and hair that looks African
While Djehuti would say that many Khosians are browns rather than blacks
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just to be clear. The point I am making is that even though the concept of a "Malay race" is no longer considered valid, some people still try to maintain the concept. There is no such thing as a "malay race" and this is something that came from white racist anthropologists. Most of the original so called Malays were just indigenous black populations of the Malay peninsula who adopted Islam prior to the 18th century. Later immigrations of Chinese, Persians, Arabs and other Asian populations along with European traders further impacted the population and produced the people you see today.
quote: The view of Malays held by Thomas Stamford Raffles had a significant influence on English-speakers, lasting to the present day. He is probably the most important voice who promoted the idea of a ‘Malay’ race or nation, not limited to the Malay ethnic group, but embracing the people of a large yet unspecified part of the South East Asian archipelago. Raffles formed a vision of Malays as a language-based 'nation', in line with the views of the English Romantic movement at the time, and in 1809 sent a literary essay on the topic to the Asiatic Society. After he mounted an expedition to the former Minangkabau seat of royalty in the Pagaruyung, he declared it was ‘the source of that power, the origin of that nation, so extensively scattered over the Eastern Archipelago’. In his later writings he moved the Malays from a nation to a race.
quote: The concept of a Malay race was originally proposed by the German scientist Johann Friedrich Blumenbach (1752–1840), and classified as the brown race. Malay is a loose term used in the late 19th century and early 20th century to describe the Austronesian peoples / categorize Austronesian speakers into a race.
Since Blumenbach, many anthropologists have rejected his theory of five races, citing the enormous complexity of classifying races. The concept of a "Malay race" differs with that of the ethnic Malays centered on Malaysian Malay Peninsula and parts of the Indonesian island of Sumatra.
In his 1775 doctoral dissertation titled De generis humani varietate nativa (On the Natural Varieties of Mankind), Blumenbach outlined four main human races by skin color, namely Caucasian (white), Negroid (black), Native American (red), and Mongolian (yellow). ...
Malays were once referred to as "Kun-lun people" in various Chinese records. Kunlun originally referred to a fabled mountain range believed to span parts of Tibet and India. It was used by the Chinese in reference to black, wavy-haired barbarians of mountains and jungles from the remote part of the geographically known world. The Champas and Khmers were called Kunlun people by the Chinese before the term was applied to the Malays or more accurately Austronesians as a whole. In 750, Jianzhen (688–765) noticed the presence of many "Brahmans, Persians and Kunluns in Canton". The Old Book of Tang reported that "every year, Kunlun merchants came in their ships carrying valuable goods to trade with the Chinese".
By 1795, Blumenbach added another race called 'Malay' which he considered a subcategory of both the Ethiopian and Mongoloid races. The Malay race belonged to those of a "brown color: from olive and a clear mahogany to the darkest clove or chestnut brown." Blumenbach expanded the term "Malay" to include the native inhabitants of the Marianas, the Philippines, the Malukus, Sundas, Indochina, as well as Pacific Islands like the Tahitians. He considered a Tahitian skull he had received to be the missing link; showing the transition between the "primary" race, the Caucasians, and the "degenerate" race, the Negroids.
quote: The term Proto-Malay, which translates to Melayu asli (aboriginal Malay) or Melayu purba (ancient Malay), refers to Austronesian speakers, possibly from mainland Asia, who moved to the Malay peninsula and Malay archipelago in a long series of migrations between 2500 and 1500 BC, and in one model the first of two migrations of early Malay speakers, before that of the Deutero-Malays.[3] The Proto-Malays are the ancestors of the Malays in the modern Malaysia and Indonesia.[4]
The Proto-Malays are believed to be seafarers knowledgeable in oceanography and possessing advanced fishing as well as basic agricultural skills. Over the years, they settled in various places and adopted various customs and religions as a result of acculturation and inter-marriage with most of the people they come in contact with Orang Asli tribes such as the Semang and Senoi peoples.
The Encyclopedia of Malaysia: Early History has pointed out three theories of the origin of the Proto-Malay:
The Yunnan theory, Mekong river migration (first published in 1889). The theory of Proto-Malay originating from Yunnan is supported by R.H Geldern, J.H.C Kern, J.R Foster, J.R Logen, Slametmuljana and Asmah Haji Omar. Other evidence that supports this theory includes: stone tools found at Malay Archipelago which are analogous to Central Asian tools; similarity of Malay customs and Assam customs; and the fact that the Malay and Cambodian languages are kindred languages because the ancestral home of Cambodians originated at the source of Mekong River. The New Guinea theory (first published in 1965). The Taiwan theory (first published in 1997). For more information, see Austronesian languages.
Some historical linguists have concluded that there is scant linguistic basis for a Proto-/Deutero-Malay split. The findings suggests that the Proto-Malay and the Deutero-Malay peoples possibly belong to the same stock and origin. Previous theories suggested that the Deutero-Malays came in a second wave of migration, around 300 BCE, compared to the arrival of the Proto-Malays who came much earlier.
Again the whole purpose of this concept of a "Malay race" was to imply that the indigenous black folks of the peninsula were savages (because they were black) and that civilization only came later from other races. The purpose being to say that black populations are savage and inferior and should be exterminated and replaced with other racial types in order to guarantee progress of the race. That is simply white supremacist propaganda and this has happened throughout Asia and the Pacific, which is why so many of these populations who used to be more black are no longer around. And in all of these places, white folks created "new races" based on a mixture of natives and other lighter skinned Asian populations to reflect the world view and theories of the white racists, ie. light skinned exotic 'caucasians'.
Also this same idea of arbitrarily lumping certain black populations together into a certain "race" because they have some trait of "civilization" the whites admire is also seen elsewhere as in the case of ancient Egypt.
Posts: 8898 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
Most of the original so called Malays were just indigenous black populations of the Malay peninsula....
Later immigrations of Chinese, Persians, Arabs and other Asian populations along with European traders further impacted the population and produced the people you see today.
Minangkabau, West Sumatra, Indonesia.
No need for old black and white photos
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Doug M. "This nonsense about Malays being "dark as blacks" but not black is stupidity. That proves my point. Those are the original features of not only Malays but ALL ASIANS and ALL HUMANS."
Dark as black? Malays? Only if black includes yellow-red-brown-apricot...
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Anyway you know my stance on this issue. I don't play semantic games. Black people come in all shapes and sizes and there are no features that are not found among black populations around the planet. The idea that somehow there are some features among certain humans that don't ultimately originate with black aboriginals of some shape or fashion is blatantly false. This is what I am talking about, which is biology. There is no "other" population that magically sprang up in Asia and somehow magically was distinct from their black forefathers. Almost all Asian features derive from black aboriginal populations all over Asia. They were not limited to South Asia and that includes the Malays. This nonsense about Malays being "dark as blacks" but not black is stupidity. That proves my point. Those are the original features of not only Malays but ALL ASIANS and ALL HUMANS. And the evidence for this was and is still present even though the white racists and their ilk have done a lot to erase it.
Of course there are and have been other people of different shades in Asia, but that doesn't change the fact that they ultimately originate with black aboriginal populations.
And again I agree with everything you say above except about Malays! Exactly who said Malays "are as dark as blacks" in the first place?? By the way, when I say 'Malays' I mean Malayan speaking peoples not only of Malaysia but Indonesia and the Philippines as well. By and large Malayan people are not that dark. Of course there are exceptions since Malayans have assimilated and mixed with various aboriginal groups. That's my point, it is the aboriginals of Southeast Asia who are black. Malayans are not aboriginal though they have lived in the region for a long time to be indigenous, and again some have mixed with aborigines hence darker i.e. black complexions among certain individuals or communities.
quote:And to this day a lot of folks are simply trying to run away from this blackness.
Malays:
So the girls in the above photos are now black?? Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm pretty sure Djehuti who is Asian himself knows more about Asians than the people who are arguing against him...
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^ I think it is more of a misunderstanding than an argument. Doug is right that blacks come in a variety of features as they are the original populace especially of tropical regions of the world including Southeast Asia. However, he seems to mistake Malay people as a whole for these black aborigines when that is obviously not the case.
Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Anyway you know my stance on this issue. I don't play semantic games. Black people come in all shapes and sizes and there are no features that are not found among black populations around the planet. The idea that somehow there are some features among certain humans that don't ultimately originate with black aboriginals of some shape or fashion is blatantly false. This is what I am talking about, which is biology. There is no "other" population that magically sprang up in Asia and somehow magically was distinct from their black forefathers. Almost all Asian features derive from black aboriginal populations all over Asia. They were not limited to South Asia and that includes the Malays. This nonsense about Malays being "dark as blacks" but not black is stupidity. That proves my point. Those are the original features of not only Malays but ALL ASIANS and ALL HUMANS. And the evidence for this was and is still present even though the white racists and their ilk have done a lot to erase it.
Of course there are and have been other people of different shades in Asia, but that doesn't change the fact that they ultimately originate with black aboriginal populations.
And again I agree with everything you say above except about Malays! Exactly who said Malays "are as dark as blacks" in the first place?? By the way, when I say 'Malays' I mean Malayan speaking peoples not only of Malaysia but Indonesia and the Philippines as well. By and large Malayan people are not that dark. Of course there are exceptions since Malayans have assimilated and mixed with various aboriginal groups. That's my point, it is the aboriginals of Southeast Asia who are black. Malayans are not aboriginal though they have lived in the region for a long time to be indigenous, and again some have mixed with aborigines hence darker i.e. black complexions among certain individuals or communities.
quote:And to this day a lot of folks are simply trying to run away from this blackness.
Malays:
So the girls in the above photos are now black??
I said that the original Malays were primarily indigenous black populations who adopted Islam and prior to the 18th century. The Europeans then arbitrarily lumped them together as a "race" as I showed from their own books where they were trying to distinguish "black people" from "brown people" based on the concept of one group being uncivilized savages and the other group being civilized and refined especially due to mixture with non black populations. And like I said, the whole concept of the Malay race is no different than any of the other bogus racial constructs created by white people. All of these people originated with blacks and the first Malays were black as well.... And keep in mind that black really is a term for people who are a shade of brown. So to claim that because someone is brown they are not black is nonsense. Where did that brown come from other than black people? And the contradiction here is other populations with similar features are called black, but they are no different from these people. Malays aren't a race so of course they have different looks. Doesn't change the fact that the first Malays were mostly indigenous black people.
Orang Asli: https://www.flickr.com/photos/98581872@N04/9768871761/ Now this orang Asli woman is considered black with features no different than the other "malays". Yet they are supposed to be different races. That is nonsense.
Now, of course there have been many more immigrants into Malaysia and there are a lot more mixtures of people included as "Malays". But Malay is not a race as opposed to a broad cultural grouping based on Islam and other cultural practices among people of various ethnic backgrounds who are mixed. These are not the same people as even seen 100 years ago, let alone 3000 years ago.
Posts: 8898 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
where are these people considering Mayasians black?
Do they consider themselves black? Do they call each other blacks in Malayasin language?
Mongolia
^^^ How about these Mongoliian men? Are they considered black
Again by who?
Is it just whoever you feel like?
If I put up these Mongolians you won't address it because you are doing the semantic game and using select exmaples
You are doing the same thing the Europeans do. -insist on classifying people as a color and then insisting they be proud of their color and make statements about it
your ideas can't stand up to being tested and you know it
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Keep in mind that all feature diversity in humans originates in black African populations that left Africa. That is the PRIMARY reason some people spend so much time quibbling about this and making up lies and nonsense. Historically these ties to Africa need to be denied or hidden in order to maintain a myth of superiority based on skin color which most often comes from white racist anthropology from the last few hundred years, but not always.
posted
^^^ If the first humans were Khosians or East Africans why arew you putting up West Africans, a region populated much later?
And, your concept is people are related by phenotype You ignore DNA completely and also stuck in the 19trh century
-and are stuck in the European artifical white and black two color paradigm for humanity which ancient people did not have. You use the same two color paradigm you just advocate for the opposite side of the artifcial construct
Most of the original so called Malays were just indigenous black populations of the Malay peninsula....
Later immigrations of Chinese, Persians, Arabs and other Asian populations along with European traders further impacted the population and produced the people you see today.
Minangkabau, West Sumatra, Indonesia.
No need for old black and white photos
The old photo's reflect the historical moments, Great.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ If the first humans were Khosians or East Africans why arew you putting up West Africans, a region populated much later?
And, your concept is people are related by phenotype You ignore DNA completely and also stuck in the 19trh century
-and are stuck in the European artifical white and black two color paradigm for humanity which ancient people did not have. You use the same two color paradigm you just advocate for the opposite side of the artifcial construct
Remember West Africans are only a recent phenomenon, some claim.
So perhaps because;
quote: The regional distribution of an ancient Y-chromosome haplogroup C-M130 (Hg C) in Asia provides an ideal tool of dissecting prehistoric migration events. We identified 465 Hg C individuals out of 4284 males from 140 East and Southeast Asian populations. We genotyped these Hg C individuals using 12 Y-chromosome biallelic markers and 8 commonly used Y-short tandem repeats (Y-STRs), and performed phylogeographic analysis in combination with the published data. The results show that most of the Hg C subhaplogroups have distinct geographical distribution and have undergone long-time isolation, although Hg C individuals are distributed widely across Eurasia. Furthermore, a general south-to-north and east-to-west cline of Y-STR diversity is observed with the highest diversity in Southeast Asia. The phylogeographic distribution pattern of Hg C supports a single coastal 'Out-of-Africa' route by way of the Indian subcontinent, which eventually led to the early settlement of modern humans in mainland Southeast Asia. The northward expansion of Hg C in East Asia started approximately 40 thousand of years ago (KYA) along the coastline of mainland China and reached Siberia approximately 15 KYA and finally made its way to the Americas.
--Zhong H1, Shi H, Qi XB, Xiao CJ, Jin L, Ma RZ, Su B.
Global distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup C reveals the prehistoric migration routes of African exodus and early settlement in East Asia.
quote:Table 1 lists the reported YAP+ frequencies in worldwide populations (refer to table note for references). Africans have the highest frequency of YAP+, and all of them belong to the sub-haplogroup E-M40. In contrast, D-M174 is in general East Asian specific with sporadic occurrence in adjacent regions, i.e. Central Asia, Middle East and Northeast India. The average frequency of D-M174 in East Asians is 9.60% with high frequencies in Tibet (41.31%), Japan (35.08%) and Andaman Island (56.25%), but rare in other East Asian populations (< 5%).
DE is 65,000 years old. suggesting an African origin
"The age of [haplogroup] DE is about 65,000 years, just a bit younger than the other major lineage to leave Africa, which is assumed to be about 70,000 years old,” says Hammer, describing an example of the fine resolution of age that is now possible. “Haplogroup E is older than previously estimated, originating approximately 50,000 years ago.”--Hammer
In any event, Underhill and Kivislid (2008) kind of put this whole argument to rest:
quote:The results of these haplogrouping experiments indicated that one ( Table 1 ) of the 18 SNPs evaluated shared derived alleles in haplogroups C and F while being at an ancestral state in the other haplogroups. [Erratum] These results hold up the phylogenetic scenario shown in Figure 8d , which is consistent with two independent founder types, D and CF, evolving outside Africa, and thus weakens the other two possible interpretations discussed above. However, the common ancestry of C and F founder types is supported by a short branch, defined by a single mutation, implying the diversification of CF from DE was shortly followed by the split of C from F. Although extinction events within Africa offset by haplogroup survival of descendents in Asia cannot be empirically demonstrated, both the refutation of the option shown in Figure 8b and the apparent absence of deep-rooted haplogroups for either CF or D chromosomes in Africa bolsters the model that haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia
--Underhill and Kivislid (2008)
quote:The new haplogroup, labeled DE* according to the nomenclature of the Y CHROMOSOME CONSORTIUM 2002 Down, has been found in 5 Nigerians (from different villages, languages, ethnic backgrounds, and paternal birthplaces) from a data set of >8000 men worldwide, including 1247 Nigerians. The position of these 5 Nigerians on the Y chromosome tree has been confirmed by repeated typing for all the known UEP markers immediately above and below node a in Fig 1 (YAP, M145, M203, M174, M96, P29, and SRY4064) as well as for five additional UEP markers (92R7, M9, M20, 12f2, and SRY10831) as shown in Fig 1. The asterisk in DE* indicates that it is potentially, but not definitely, paraphyletic relative to one or both of groups D and E (Fig 2). The term "paragroup" has been applied to such haplogroups (Y CHROMOSOME CONSORTIUM 2002 Down). To help resolve the issue of paraphyletic status, we typed YAP-derived individuals in our data set for six microsatellites: DYS19, DYS388, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, and DYS393. Of the five DE* individuals, three had a microsatellite haplotype consisting of repeat sizes 13-13-22-11-11-13 (loci arranged in same order as listed above) while the other two had a haplotype differing by one step at DYS391 only (13-13-22-10-11-13). This high level of similarity in such a rapidly evolving system strongly suggests that these five individuals share a private common ancestor (as in Fig 2C, Fig D, or e). We note that of the three possible branching patterns, two (Fig 2C and Fig D) would imply an African origin for YAP, while the third (Fig 2E) would leave the question of origins open. However, it is not easy to assess the relative probabilities of these three patterns.
--Michael E. Weale et al. 2003
quote:The B-M60 variant observed in almost all sub-Saharan collections [28] was only found in Nalú. One other Nalú individual belongs to the rare and deep-rooting DE* paragroup described in five Nigerians [37] and thus representing a coalescent "missing link", paraphyletic to haplogroups D and E. The two Western European R1b-P25 lineages in Fulbe and Bijagós are best explained by recent European influence, at the time of the slave trade. A partial introduction through North African pastoral immigrants can not be rejected, where the 3–12% of R1b-P25 are due to the geographic proximity and the long reported contacts with Europe and Middle-East [33]. The European source seems nevertheless more likely: firstly, Y chromosome signatures of European presence have a reported great expression in the nearby Cape Verdians [38] and secondly, highly frequent North African haplogroups that would have been equally carried by the migrants (e.g. E3b2-M81) are absent in Guineans. The M173 and P25 derived states in both our samples rule out a relationship to the R1*-M173 lineage previously found in Cameroon, Oman, Egypt and Rwanda, and adduced to support the "Back-to-Africa" theory [3,28].
--Rosa et al. 2007
quote:Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.
--Rosa et al. 2007
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Deeply pigmented humans are the most diverse people on the planet due to the fact that the human species first arose in tropical environments with deep pigmentation. Therefore, since Africa is the birthplace of said humans, the feature diversity among Africans is greater than non Africans. And from that base populations also arose smaller subsets of humans that expanded around the globe and were likewise greatly diverse in features due to the age of these initial expansions of deeply pigmented humans. From this diversity among deeply pigmented human populations in Africa derive all human features found on the planet to this day.
Period.
This is simply observable based on facts, science and history.
But of course some folks are trying to run away from this.
Posts: 8898 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Deeply pigmented humans are the most diverse people on the planet due to the fact that the human species first arose in tropical environments with deep pigmentation. Therefore, since Africa is the birthplace of said humans, the feature diversity among Africans is greater than non Africans. And from that base populations also arose smaller subsets of humans that expanded around the globe and were likewise greatly diverse in features due to the age of these initial expansions of deeply pigmented humans. From this diversity among deeply pigmented human populations in Africa derive all human features found on the planet to this day.
Period.
This is simply observable based on facts, science and history.
But of course some folks are trying to run away from this.
I never looked at it like that. But that is indeed true. Another great deep thinker, by you. Thanks for the vision and view.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I said that the original Malays were primarily indigenous black populations who adopted Islam and prior to the 18th century. The Europeans then arbitrarily lumped them together as a "race" as I showed from their own books where they were trying to distinguish "black people" from "brown people" based on the concept of one group being uncivilized savages and the other group being civilized and refined especially due to mixture with non black populations. And like I said, the whole concept of the Malay race is no different than any of the other bogus racial constructs created by white people. All of these people originated with blacks and the first Malays were black as well.... And keep in mind that black really is a term for people who are a shade of brown. So to claim that because someone is brown they are not black is nonsense. Where did that brown come from other than black people? And the contradiction here is other populations with similar features are called black, but they are no different from these people. Malays aren't a race so of course they have different looks. Doesn't change the fact that the first Malays were mostly indigenous black people.
You are mistaken. The term "brown" as applied to Malays was used the same way it is today, that is to describe medium complexions that are not that dark to be called 'black' but are not light enough to be fair-skinned. When Malays and other Southeast Asians for that matter were described as "brown", it was not a euphemism the way chocolate or coffee complexioned Africans of North and East Africa were called 'Brown Mediterraneans' as again most Malay and other Southeast Asians were not that dark. But like the aforementioned Africans, Europeans noticed certain craniofacial features as well as antiquity of our civilizations to posit a "caucasoid" origin for us as well!! Of course modern anthropologists now recognize that not only does biological race not exist let alone 'brown Malay race' but that Malayan peoples by and large share recent common ancestry with other East Asians! This was proven not only with skeletal and genetic evidence but archaeological evidence as well. Our ancestors originated from the north likely somewhere in southern China and spread to Southeast Asia during the Neolithic, likely sometime after the submersion of Sunda.
This is why I don't know why you keep clinging to and repeating the false notion that Malays were black aboriginals when they were NOT! Yes some Malays did indeed intermarry and mix with the aborigines which also explains a frequency of certain genetic traits but to say that the entire Malay peoples are black is something else entirely and absolutely ridiculous! Again, you're talking about my people! We were NOT an entire black people who only in recent modern times became lightened through intermixture with Chinese or Europeans! This is why even in the most rural areas of Indonesia and the Philippines where there are isolated Malayan tribes who still live stone age lifestyles these people are NOT black and even distinguish themselves from the black tribes! Of course there are exceptions in that not only was there intermarriage or mixture with aboriginal peoples but there were many aboriginal groups who adopted the Malay language/culture, hence black Malays even elites. There was one queen who ruled Malacca (ancient Malaysia) during the Funan Kingdom who was described as having "black skin with curly", but that's not the same as saying the entire Malayan peoples were black.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Orang Asli: https://www.flickr.com/photos/98581872@N04/9768871761/ Now this orang Asli woman is considered black with features no different than the other "malays". Yet they are supposed to be different races. That is nonsense.
You do realize that the prhase "Orang Asli" in the Melayu langauge means First Person as in aborigine. Also, it's likely that her features are no different from typical Malay because she is of mixed ancestry. This also explains why her complexion is also lighter than typical Orang Asli. You do realize that many Orang Asli communities have mixed heritage. I'm guessing you do not!
typical Orang Asli
typical Orang Malay
Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I said that the original Malays were primarily indigenous black populations who adopted Islam and prior to the 18th century. The Europeans then arbitrarily lumped them together as a "race" as I showed from their own books where they were trying to distinguish "black people" from "brown people" based on the concept of one group being uncivilized savages and the other group being civilized and refined especially due to mixture with non black populations. And like I said, the whole concept of the Malay race is no different than any of the other bogus racial constructs created by white people. All of these people originated with blacks and the first Malays were black as well.... And keep in mind that black really is a term for people who are a shade of brown. So to claim that because someone is brown they are not black is nonsense. Where did that brown come from other than black people? And the contradiction here is other populations with similar features are called black, but they are no different from these people. Malays aren't a race so of course they have different looks. Doesn't change the fact that the first Malays were mostly indigenous black people.
You are mistaken. The term "brown" as applied to Malays was used the same way it is today, that is to describe medium complexions that are not that dark to be called 'black' but are not light enough to be fair-skinned. When Malays and other Southeast Asians for that matter were described as "brown", it was not a euphemism the way chocolate or coffee complexioned Africans of North and East Africa were called 'Brown Mediterraneans' as again most Malay and other Southeast Asians were not that dark. But like the aforementioned Africans, Europeans noticed certain craniofacial features as well as antiquity of our civilizations to posit a "caucasoid" origin for us as well!! Of course modern anthropologists now recognize that not only does biological race not exist let alone 'brown Malay race' but that Malayan peoples by and large share recent common ancestry with other East Asians! This was proven not only with skeletal and genetic evidence but archaeological evidence as well. Our ancestors originated from the north likely somewhere in southern China and spread to Southeast Asia during the Neolithic, likely sometime after the submersion of Sunda.
This is why I don't know why you keep clinging to and repeating the false notion that Malays were black aboriginals when they were NOT! Yes some Malays did indeed intermarry and mix with the aborigines which also explains a frequency of certain genetic traits but to say that the entire Malay peoples are black is something else entirely and absolutely ridiculous! Again, you're talking about my people! We were NOT an entire black people who only in recent modern times became lightened through intermixture with Chinese or Europeans! This is why even in the most rural areas of Indonesia and the Philippines where there are isolated Malayan tribes who still live stone age lifestyles these people are NOT black and even distinguish themselves from the black tribes! Of course there are exceptions in that not only was there intermarriage or mixture with aboriginal peoples but there were many aboriginal groups who adopted the Malay language/culture, hence black Malays even elites. There was one queen who ruled Malacca (ancient Malaysia) during the Funan Kingdom who was described as having "black skin with curly", but that's not the same as saying the entire Malayan peoples were black.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Orang Asli: https://www.flickr.com/photos/98581872@N04/9768871761/ Now this orang Asli woman is considered black with features no different than the other "malays". Yet they are supposed to be different races. That is nonsense.
You do realize that the prhase "Orang Asli" in the Melayu langauge means First Person as in aborigine. Also, it's likely that her features are no different from typical Malay because she is of mixed ancestry. This also explains why her complexion is also lighter than typical Orang Asli. You do realize that many Orang Asli communities have mixed heritage. I'm guessing you do not!
typical Orang Asli
typical Orang Malay
Like I said before there is no uniform color among these people. There are some who are very dark and there are some who are very light. To sit here and claim ALL these people are the same complexion is simply a lie. It is nonsensical and based on pure absurd nonsense logic. There is no such thing as a dam "brown" race. That is the point. You keep saying it but it simply does not exist. They are called brown because white folks called them that going back to the concept of the Malay Race being a "brown" race, which is word for word what you are describing. The original populations referred to as "Malays" were black, even though they did have mixture from other populations. Over time they have become more mixed with other Asians just like all other South and Southeast Asians. That has produced the various shades of "brown" you are referring to which also exists among the Orang Asli who also are not all dark brown as you claim. So it is simply an issue of arbitrary definitions based on old racist white anthropologists and has nothing to do with reality. Like I said the original people labeled as "Malays" were black aboriginal populations who adopted Islam. There was no separate "race" of people that came in and replaced the aboriginal folks. That is the nonsense I am referring to. Yes, there is a mixture CURRENTLY in Malays and other Asians but that doesn't change one bit of what I said.
All people labeled as "black" are shades of brown. This has always been true and there has never been any such notion of "brown" people being separate from "black" people except when white folks want to associate "civilized" traits to a specific "black" population and must try and associate it with "non black" people.
Lionese's thread, which starts out as a antagonist is morphed into a very informative set of presentations. Thanks Doug!
I disgaree. The topic is the Yi people. Do you hear people discussing them?
Doug diverted the topic into the semantics of "black" a term that few people agree on and is 99% of the time applied to brown skinned people rather than people who are actually black. It is merely a re-hash of an old 20 or so page thread called "Not if they're Negroid I say" which was about applying the colorist term "black" to Asians Doug is shadow boxing with 100+ year old obsolete seculation on a Malay race. He insists that they are of the black race ( but black is not a race, I forgot)
However the topic is the Yi people of Southern China and their culture and why they used these terms "black Yi" (upper caste) and "white Yi" (lower caste) and their slaves who were neither black Yi or white YI. I believe it did not have to do with differences in physical appearances
The black face tradition however did have to do with people of a different phyical type, according to legend seem to be of a short statured Negrito type and were said to have been killed off by the Yi long ago
posted
There are people of different complexions around the world and in Asia. And I am sure some of these old references to "black" tribes among various Asian groups actually referred to people with dark skin at some point. The Yi people actually are a population that exists from Southern China into Burma and other parts of South East Asia. But at the same time some of those references also has to do with the color of the costumes or other articles and nothing to do with skin color at all. Asia is a big place with a lot of different types of cultures and peoples. It is a very complex area to study.
Posts: 8898 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Only a loon like lioness is going to discuss a people and its history OF WHO YOU DONT KNOW SHYT, AGAIN! SMH its pathetic.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Doug M. :"Deeply pigmented humans are the most diverse people on the planet due to the fact that the human species first arose in tropical environments with deep pigmentation."
Congo Pygmies and Kalahari KhoiSan are not deeply pigmented, they have a shading in between Tamil and typical Malay. The peripheral rainforest people became darker than others because it was most advantageous there: Countershading = sunny x dark leaf shading, combined with Ultraviolet blocker. There is much less sunlight under a multi-story forest canopy, which was the original home of Homo spp.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Like I said before there is no uniform color among these people. There are some who are very dark and there are some who are very light. To sit here and claim ALL these people are the same complexion is simply a lie. It is nonsensical and based on pure absurd nonsense logic. There is no such thing as a dam "brown" race. That is the point. You keep saying it but it simply does not exist. They are called brown because white folks called them that going back to the concept of the Malay Race being a "brown" race, which is word for word what you are describing...
Exactly what do you mean by "these people"? Which people?? You are obviously confusing the Orang Asli with Orang Malayi when they are entirely two different people with the former being aboriginal. Also, when have I ever said there was a uniform color?? I specifically said that there was mixture between the two groups hence the varying shades of complexion but that does not change the FACT that Malay were/are NOT the same as the aboriginals! And of course there is no such thing as a "brown race"! I just stated that myself! The fact that we describe ourselves as "brown" due to complexion has nothing to do with any outdated European race-scheme! Also, Malayan peoples have always distinguished themselves from black aborigines simply because they are not!
quote:..The original populations referred to as "Malays" were black, even though they did have mixture from other populations. Over time they have become more mixed with other Asians just like all other South and Southeast Asians. That has produced the various shades of "brown" you are referring to which also exists among the Orang Asli who also are not all dark brown as you claim. So it is simply an issue of arbitrary definitions based on old racist white anthropologists and has nothing to do with reality. Like I said the original people labeled as "Malays" were black aboriginal populations who adopted Islam. There was no separate "race" of people that came in and replaced the aboriginal folks. That is the nonsense I am referring to. Yes, there is a mixture CURRENTLY in Malays and other Asians but that doesn't change one bit of what I said.
Again, you are very much mistaken. Malayans are in indigenous to Southeast Asian in that they have lived in that region for thousands of years but they are NOT aboriginal to the region in that they were the first peoples which is evident in the fact that they are NOT black. They (we) have always in our own traditions and histories made a distinction between ourselves and the black aboriginals! It has absolutely NOTHING to do with European colonial racism but simply a matter of FACT. Why do you think the black aboriginals are called 'Orang Asli' meaning 'First People'?? Why is it that in our foundation myths and legends there are stories that about the relations between the Malay and the Asli, Aeta, and the various aboriginal peoples who inhabited the various areas of Southeast Asia?? All of this of course predates Islam or Buddhism or even Hinduism in Southeast Asia!! Even Troll Patrol cited a source that talks about an indigenous Taiwanese that talk about "black dwarves" being aboriginal!! Again, this is not from the Chinese but the indigenous Formosan tribes! The point is Malayan peoples and the black aborigines are NOT the same.
quote:All people labeled as "black" are shades of brown. This has always been true and there has never been any such notion of "brown" people being separate from "black" people except when white folks want to associate "civilized" traits to a specific "black" population and must try and associate it with "non black" people.
It has nothing to do with "white people". The majority of Southeast Asians including Malayans share a recent ancestry with other East Asians further north. Yes, there was intermixture with black aborigines which explains the variety of complexions even darker ones with other features but that still does not change the fact that we are NOT the same as the aborigines! You are talking to me as if I am some ignoramus who has been brainwashed by Euronuts! I know the history of my peoples and I know what I am talking about! YOU are the one who is ignorant as well as confused about the history of Southeast Asian populations. You're attempts to claim Malayan peoples as 'black' is almost though not quite as ridiculous as Afronuts like Mike and Marc!! Yes black people are the aboriginal people of Southeast Asia as they are in South central Asia (India) and even Southwest Asia, and YES blacks are ancestral to all lighter skinned peoples but to say that the Malayan peoples are those aborigines is incorrect at the least and absurd at its worst!
Posts: 26300 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic