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the questioner
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Pigafetta mentions the presence of a negroid people in the southern part of the Americas before the arrival of the Spanish or Portuguese

"they are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly" A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...
By James Burney pg 21

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Selk’nam tribe, photo Martín Gusinde,1919

The Selk'nam, also known as the Onawo or Ona people, are an indigenous people in the Patagonian region of southern Argentina and Chile, including the Tierra del Fuego islands. They were one of the last native groups in South America to be encountered by migrant ethnic Europeans or Westerners in the late 19th century.

 -
Yaghan people, 1883

The Yaghan, also called Yagán, Yahgan, Yámana, Yamana, or Tequenica, are one of the indigenous peoples of the Southern Cone, who are regarded as the southernmost peoples in the world. Their traditional territory includes the islands south of Isla Grande de Tierra del Fuego, extending their presence into Cape Horn. They have been there for more than 10,000 years.

Books such as Ebenezer Sibly's Universal System of Natural History in 1794 may include some illustrations depicting indigenous people based on first hand observation and artists making the art on location
but may also contain many illustrations that are based on hearsay , second or third hand accounts or as imagined by artists who were never at the location

Looking at the photo here the people look more Asian than African , DNA solves the problem

________________________________

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41465527

Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups in Four Tribes from Tierra del Fuego—Patagonia: Inferences about the Peopling of the Americas


Abstract

The four major founder haplogroups in native Americans were analyzed, including new data from four extinct tribes from Tierra del Fuego—Patagonia, to look into the relationship between genes and geography. A multiple regression analysis was performed using the haplogroups as independent variables and latitude as the dependent variable. The results show that haplogroups A, C, and D are significantly distributed along a north-south geographic cline. The distribution of haplogroup B, which is absent in northern North America and in extreme southern South America, could be related to other nongeographic variables, such as independent mutations in region V or an intermediate migration. The absence of haplogroup B in Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia also supports the existence of at least two different migration waves in the Amerind group, the first lacking haplogroup B. The Central American Amerind and North American Amerind samples are the populations that least fit the theoretical model. This difference can be related to the geographic characteristics of Central America and the existence of a sharp genetic boundary between the northern Na-Dene and the northern Amerind, respectively. In addition, a neighbor-joining tree was generated from the haplogroup data using the FST distance. The genetic tree shows that the populations are roughly distributed according to their geographic location. Therefore the genetic pattern observed is compatible with different successive migrations along the continent. The north to south direction of the migratory movements can be inferred from the mtDNA diversity data.

___________________________


Haplogroup A is believed to have arisen in Asia some 30,000–50,000 years before present. Its ancestral haplogroup was Haplogroup N.

Its highest frequencies are among Indigenous peoples of the Americas, its largest overall population is in East Asia, and its greatest variety (which suggests its origin point) is in East Asia. Thus, it might have originated in and spread from the Far East.

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the questioner
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1883 -1919?

we are talking about original fuegians

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
1883 -1919?

we are talking about original fuegians

Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
1883 -1919?

we are talking about original fuegians

Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
This is because these people were killed off replaced by the people you post in your pictures.

 -

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
[qb] 1883 -1919?

we are talking about original fuegians

Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?

This is because these people were killed off replaced by the people you post in your pictures.


When?
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -
Selk’nam tribe, photo Martín Gusinde,1919

The Selk'nam, also known as the Onawo or Ona people, are an indigenous people in the Patagonian region of southern Argentina and Chile, including the Tierra del Fuego islands. They were one of the last native groups in South America to be encountered by migrant ethnic Europeans or Westerners in the late 19th century.

 -
Yaghan people, 1883

The Yaghan, also called Yagán, Yahgan, Yámana, Yamana, or Tequenica, are one of the indigenous peoples of the Southern Cone, who are regarded as the southernmost peoples in the world. Their traditional territory includes the islands south of Isla Grande de Tierra del Fuego, extending their presence into Cape Horn. They have been there for more than 10,000 years.

Books such as Ebenezer Sibly's Universal System of Natural History in 1794 may include some illustrations depicting indigenous people based on first hand observation and artists making the art on location
but may also contain many illustrations that are based on hearsay , second or third hand accounts or as imagined by artists who were never at the location

Looking at the photo here the people look more Asian than African , DNA solves the problem

________________________________

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41465527

Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups in Four Tribes from Tierra del Fuego—Patagonia: Inferences about the Peopling of the Americas


Abstract

The four major founder haplogroups in native Americans were analyzed, including new data from four extinct tribes from Tierra del Fuego—Patagonia, to look into the relationship between genes and geography. A multiple regression analysis was performed using the haplogroups as independent variables and latitude as the dependent variable. The results show that haplogroups A, C, and D are significantly distributed along a north-south geographic cline. The distribution of haplogroup B, which is absent in northern North America and in extreme southern South America, could be related to other nongeographic variables, such as independent mutations in region V or an intermediate migration. The absence of haplogroup B in Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia also supports the existence of at least two different migration waves in the Amerind group, the first lacking haplogroup B. The Central American Amerind and North American Amerind samples are the populations that least fit the theoretical model. This difference can be related to the geographic characteristics of Central America and the existence of a sharp genetic boundary between the northern Na-Dene and the northern Amerind, respectively. In addition, a neighbor-joining tree was generated from the haplogroup data using the FST distance. The genetic tree shows that the populations are roughly distributed according to their geographic location. Therefore the genetic pattern observed is compatible with different successive migrations along the continent. The north to south direction of the migratory movements can be inferred from the mtDNA diversity data.

___________________________


Haplogroup A is believed to have arisen in Asia some 30,000–50,000 years before present. Its ancestral haplogroup was Haplogroup N.

Its highest frequencies are among Indigenous peoples of the Americas, its largest overall population is in East Asia, and its greatest variety (which suggests its origin point) is in East Asia. Thus, it might have originated in and spread from the Far East.

Native Americans carrying mtDNA A does not mean that earlier Fuegians were not Africans. This results, from the fact that Mande speaking people carry mtDNA hg A.

 -

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C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
[qb] 1883 -1919?

we are talking about original fuegians

Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?

This is because these people were killed off replaced by the people you post in your pictures.


When?
 -

 -

.
.
.The Black Fuegians mainly lived along the coast. They began to decline shortly after they came in contact with Europeans after 1624.

The Selk'nam and other Mongoloid tribes that lived in the Fuegian interior survived into the 19th and 20th Centuries until they were missionized. Most Mongoloid and African/Negroe Fuegians died due to contact with missionaries and European traders.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
"they are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly" A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...

Pigafetta also notes that they had men 125 to 140 years old, but that was in Brazil. Were the 9 foot tall giants of Patagonia supposed to be woolly haired?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
"they are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly" A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...

Pigafetta also notes that they had men 125 to 140 years old, but that was in Brazil. Were the 9 foot tall giants of Patagonia supposed to be woolly haired?
quote:

The Brasílians are thus described by Pigafetta. “They are
without religion. Natural instinct is their only law. It is not
uncommon to see men 125 years of age, and some of 140.
They live in long houses or cabins they call boc, one of which
sometimes contains a hundred families. They are cannibals,
but eat only their enemies. They are olive coloured, well
made, their hair short and woolly. They paint themselves
both in the body and in the face, but principally the latter.

--A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...
By James Burney


Yes, it makes no sense to show an illustration of Fuegians of the most southern part of South America when Brazil is in the northern half of South America
And if we are to look at Brazil one can go to the Amazon rainforest and there are people there such as the Yanomami who
have only had contact with Europeans since the 1940s.
Yanomami have also reported seeing uncontacted Yanomami, whom they call Moxateteu, in the Yanomami territory.

 -


We also have Luiza woman

 -

Luzia Woman is the name for an Upper Paleolithic period skeleton of a Paleo-Indian woman who was found in a cave in Brazil. Some archaeologists believe the young woman may have been part of the first wave of immigrants to South America. Nicknamed Luzia (her name pays homage to the famous African fossil "Lucy", who lived 3.2 million years ago), the 11,500-year-old skeleton was found in Lapa Vermelha, Brazil, in 1975 by archaeologist Annette Laming-Emperaire.

her Mtdna haplogroup is D1, and is ancestral to all Modern Mative Americans regardless of her unique skull shape. Then there is the corprolites found in the Paisley Cave they are 14,600 years old and the genetic signatures found in them are mtDNA A2 and B2 that are some of the founders haplogroups and are very common and ancestral to modern Native Americans


 -

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Clyde Winters
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 -

.
Craniometric quantitative analysis and multivariate methods have determined the Native American populations. This research indicated that the ancient Americans represent two populations, paleoamericans who were phenotypically African, Australian or Melanesian and a mongoloid population that appears to have arrived in the Americas after 6000 BC.

The determination of the Paleoamericans as members of the Black Variety is not a new phenomena. Howells (1973, 1989, 1995) using multivariate analyses, determined that the Easter Island population was characterized as Australo-Melanesian, while other skeletons from South America were found to be related to Africans and Australians (Coon, 1962; Dixon, 2001; Howell, 1989, 1995; Lahr, 1996). The African-Australo-Melanesian morphology was widespread in North and South America. For example skeletal remains belonging to the Black Variety have been found in Brazil (Neves, Powell, Prous and Ozolins, 1998; Neves et al., 1998), Columbian Highlands (Neves et al., 1995; Powell, 2005), Mexico (Gonza’lez-Jose, 2012), Florida (Howells, 1995), and Southern Patazonia (Neves et al., 1999a, 1999b).


We don’t have to depend on just paintings to acknowledge the Negro/African presence in America before 1492, we also have the facial reconstructions of paleoAmericans that have resulted from craniometrics that show these people were Blacks. The bioanthropologist Walter Neves’s reconstruction of the first Americans evidenced Negroid features for the Paleoamerican we call Luzia. What made this finding startling was that Neves using the mahalanobis distance and principal component analysis, found that 75 other skulls from Lagos Santa, were also phenotypically African or Australian (Neves et al., 2004).So stop trying to claim there were no Blacks in America before 1492, Blacks had been in America 94,000 years according to Dr. Nieda Guidon before the mongloid Native Americans found in America today arrived in the United States 6000 years ago.

References:
Coon CS (1962). The Origin of Races (New York: Knopf).

Dixon EJ (2001). Human colonization of the Americas: timing, chronology and process. Quaternary Science Review 20 277–99.

Gonza´lez-Jose´ R, Hernande´z M, Neves WA, Pucciarelli HM and Correal G (2002). Cra´neos del Pleistoceno tardio-Holoceno tempramo de Me´xico en relacio´n al patro´n morfolo´gico paleoamericano. Paper presented at the 7th Congress of the Latin American Association of Biological Anthropology, Mexico City.

Howells WW (1973). Cranial Variation in Man: A Study by Multivariate Analysis of Patterns of Difference among Recent Human Populations, Papers of the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University) 67.

Howells WW (1989). Skull Shapes and the Map: Craniometric Analyses in the Dispersion of Modern Homo, Papers of the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University) 79. Early Holocene human skeletal remains from Cerca Grande 497

Howells WW (1995). Who’s Who in Skulls: Ethnic Identification of Crania from Measurments, Papers of the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology (Cambridge. MA: Harvard University) 82.

Neves WA and Hubbe M (2005). Cranial morphology of early Americans from Lagoa Santa, Brazil: Implications for the settlement of the New World. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 102(18) 309–18, 314.

Neves WA and Meyer D (1993). The contribution of the morphology of early South and Northamerican skeletal remains to the understanding of the peopling of the Americas. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 16(Suppl) 150–1.

Neves WA and Pucciarelli HM (1989). Extra-continental biological relationships of early South American human remains: a multivariate analysis. Cieˆncia e Cultura 41 566–75.

Neves WA and Pucciarelli HM (1990). The origins of the first Americans: an analysis based onthe cranial morphology of early South American human remains. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 81 247.

Neves WA and Pucciarelli HM (1991). Morphological affinities of the first Americans: an exploratory analysis based on early South American human remains. Journal of Human Evolution 21 261–73.

Neves WA and Pucciarelli HM (1991). Morphological Affinities of the First Americans: an exploratory analysis based on early South American human remains. Journal of Human Evolution 21 261-273.

Neves WA, Gonza´ lez-Jose´ R, Hubbe M, Kipnis R, Araujo AGM and Blasi O (2004). Early Holocene Human Skeletal Remains form Cerca Grande, Lagoa Santa, Central Brazil, and the origins of the first Americans. World Archaeology 36 479-501.

Neves WA, Powell JF and Ozolins EG (1999). Extra-continental morphological affinities of Lapa Vermelha IV Hominid 1: A multivariate analysis with progressive numbers of variables. Homo 50 263-268.

Neves WA, Powell JF and Ozolins EG (1999). Extra-continental morphological affinities of Palli-Aike, Southern Chile. Interciencia 24 258-263, Available: http://www.interciencia.org/v24_04/neves.pdf

Neves WA, Powell JF and Ozolins EG (1999a). Extra-continental morphological affinities of Palli Aike, southern Chile. Interciencia 24 258–63.

Neves WA, Powell JF and Ozolins EG (1999b). Modern human origins as seen from the peripheries. Journal of Human Evolution 37 129–33.

Neves WA, Powell JF, Prous A and Ozolins EG (1998). Lapa Vermelha IV Hominid 1: morphologial affinities or the earliest known American. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 26(Suppl) 169.

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
1883 -1919?

we are talking about original fuegians

Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
because when dealing with history, the older the better [Cool]

--------------------
Questions expose liars

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
"they are olive coloured, well made, their hair short and woolly" A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...

Pigafetta also notes that they had men 125 to 140 years old, but that was in Brazil. Were the 9 foot tall giants of Patagonia supposed to be woolly haired?
the difference between that is one cannot not simply look at someone and tell if they are "140 years old" but one can observe if someone has "woolly hair"

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
1883 -1919?

we are talking about original fuegians

Then why are you showing an illustration from 1794 if they go back thousands of years?
because when dealing with history, the older the better [Cool]
that is simplistic not always true. This case is an example. There are only select illustrators who actually went to these far form Europe places

Many of these European book illustrators never even left Europe!

One exception was John White (c. 1540 – c. 1593)
early pioneer of English efforts to settle North America. He was among those who sailed with Richard Grenville to the shore of present-day North Carolina in 1585, acting as artist and mapmaker to the expedition


 -
Mother and child of the Secotan Indians in North Carolina. Watercolour painted by John White in 1585.

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the questioner
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you can't simply just say "So many of these European book illustrators never even left Europe!" as a logical explanation for them getting it wrong.

you need to show where johann ihle made another mistake in depicting a native people racially incorrect for you to have some merit to your argument (and it must be proven correct)

 -

i guess giraffes don't exist either since johann ihle supposedly did not leave Europe

pigafetta does mention the existence of negroid people in the southern portion of the Americas

i say maybe there were blacks or Negroids in the Americas before Columbus but their numbers were very small just like Samuel purchas and many Spanish and Portuguese conquistadors had said

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


 -

i guess giraffes don't exist either since johann ihle supposedly did not leave Europe


Don't be silly. If someone has never been to another place that doesn't mean they then get everything wrong it means they might not be reliable.
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


pigafetta does mention the existence of negroid people in the southern portion of the Americas


quote:

The Brasílians are thus described by Pigafetta. “They are
without religion. Natural instinct is their only law. It is not
uncommon to see men 125 years of age, and some of 140.
They live in long houses or cabins they call boc, one of which
sometimes contains a hundred families. They are cannibals,
but eat only their enemies. They are olive coloured, well
made, their hair short and woolly. They paint themselves
both in the body and in the face, but principally the latter.

--A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...
By James Burney



Correct, in the example you gave he didn't use the word "Negroid"

perhaps it is in the untranslated original Italian ?

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quote:

The Brasílians are thus described by Pigafetta. “They are
without religion. Natural instinct is their only law. It is not
uncommon to see men 125 years of age, and some of 140.
They live in long houses or cabins they call boc, one of which
sometimes contains a hundred families. They are cannibals,
but eat only their enemies. They are olive coloured, well
made, their hair short and woolly. They paint themselves
both in the body and in the face, but principally the latter.

--A Chronological History of the Discoveries in the South Sea Or Pacific Ocean ...
By James Burney



I'm trying to find the Italian on this, assuming this is the right text. I looked hard, many mentions of hair often long women's' hair. The above may be different sentences strung together

https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Relazione_del_primo_viaggio_intorno_al_mondo

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capra
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Thanks for finding that Lioness. Yes, it is a sort of summary rather than a quote. The descriptions of people with long black hair are in the Pacific.

The paragraph beginning "Questa terra del Verzin..." is the one that talks about the houses containing 100 families and people living to 140. (This is in Brazil.) Pigafetta says that the men in large canoes "look as black, naked, and shorn when they are rowing as those from the Stygian marshes." After discussing the origin story of cannibalism he says: "These men paint themselves marvellously with fire, all over the face and body, in various ways, the women also; they are shorn and have no beards, because they pluck them.... They are not wholly black, but olive-coloured; they carry their private parts uncovered; their bodies are hairless, and both men and women always go naked."

Pigafetta uses the same word (olivastri, olive-coloured) to describe the skin colour of people from the Marianas and the Philippines, and the bark of the clove-tree.

He does not mention the skin colour of the Patagonian giants, as far as I can tell, only talks about how they paint their faces. The first one they meet is said to have only a little hair, which is coloured white. Later on he describes Patagonians who have their "hair cut with a shaven pate in the manner of a friar, but longer..."

I cannot find anything about short woolly hair. Maybe someone can come up with a different translation. They sound like regular South Americans.

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"Don't be silly. If someone has never been to another place that doesn't mean they then get everything wrong it means they might not be reliable."-the lioness

His reliability is that he was a older contemporary

"Correct, in the example you gave he didn't use the word "Negroid""- the lioness

I used the modern word negroid because woolly hair is a negroid feature

"perhaps it is in the untranslated original Italian ?"-the lioness

be careful because pigafetta's work has been edited several times

"I'm trying to find the Italian on this, assuming this is the right text. I looked hard, many mentions of hair often long women's' hair. The above may be different sentences strung together" -the lioness

you have to look for an edition that predates 1850. look up the publishing date

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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
Thanks for finding that Lioness. Yes, it is a sort of summary rather than a quote. The descriptions of people with long black hair are in the Pacific.

The paragraph beginning "Questa terra del Verzin..." is the one that talks about the houses containing 100 families and people living to 140. (This is in Brazil.) Pigafetta says that the men in large canoes "look as black, naked, and shorn when they are rowing as those from the Stygian marshes." After discussing the origin story of cannibalism he says: "These men paint themselves marvellously with fire, all over the face and body, in various ways, the women also; they are shorn and have no beards, because they pluck them.... They are not wholly black, but olive-coloured; they carry their private parts uncovered; their bodies are hairless, and both men and women always go naked."

Pigafetta uses the same word (olivastri, olive-coloured) to describe the skin colour of people from the Marianas and the Philippines, and the bark of the clove-tree.

He does not mention the skin colour of the Patagonian giants, as far as I can tell, only talks about how they paint their faces. The first one they meet is said to have only a little hair, which is coloured white. Later on he describes Patagonians who have their "hair cut with a shaven pate in the manner of a friar, but longer..."

I cannot find anything about short woolly hair. Maybe someone can come up with a different translation. They sound like regular South Americans.

what is the publishing date? that work could be edited

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capra
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The one Lioness linked looks like a 1956 edition of a text published in 1928 by an Italian scholar. The spelling has been modernized somewhat but seems fine.

>Here< is a transcription of the original Italian version, in the original spelling, with facing English translation. I cannot find a digitized scans of the original Italian manuscript, I tried the Ambrosian Library website and couldn't find it there. I think it's wildly unlikely that mention of "woolly hair" has been edited out, but you could always fly to Europe and ask to have a look at the original ms. [Razz]

> Here < is a downloadable digital scan of one of the original 1525 French versions from the Yale library. Knock yourself out if you want to read the whole thing looking for mention of woolly hair! I checked the bits which describe the hair of the Verzin Indians and the Patagonian giants and they match the published Italian version.

I'm inclined to think Burney simply got it wrong in his summary. Anyway, we're going to need a better source for claims of Brazilian negroids.

Maybe someone can figure out what or who Ihle's source was for the savages of Tierra del Fuego? Digging this stuff up is fun but it takes way too long.

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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
The one Lioness linked looks like a 1956 edition of a text published in 1928 by an Italian scholar. The spelling has been modernized somewhat but seems fine.

>Here< is a transcription of the original Italian version, in the original spelling, with facing English translation. I cannot find a digitized scans of the original Italian manuscript, I tried the Ambrosian Library website and couldn't find it there. I think it's wildly unlikely that mention of "woolly hair" has been edited out, but you could always fly to Europe and ask to have a look at the original ms. [Razz]

> Here < is a downloadable digital scan of one of the original 1525 French versions from the Yale library. Knock yourself out if you want to read the whole thing looking for mention of woolly hair! I checked the bits which describe the hair of the Verzin Indians and the Patagonian giants and they match the published Italian version.

I'm inclined to think Burney simply got it wrong in his summary. Anyway, we're going to need a better source for claims of Brazilian negroids.

Maybe someone can figure out what or who Ihle's source was for the savages of Tierra del Fuego? Digging this stuff up is fun but it takes way too long.

i will check the french translation

even though james alexander robesrton has stated that the french version has been condensed

John Pinkerton 1819 also mentions reading a woolly haired version of his work
https://books.google.com/books?id=KVG-d40WYesC&pg=PA311&dq=pigafetta+woolly+hair&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgrbODtLLXAhWm5IMKHQbMBfY4FBDoAQhAMAU#v=onepage&q=pigafetta%20woolly%20hair&f =false

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capra
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There are two other French manuscripts as well, maybe it's from one of those.

I think they are both in the French National Library.

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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
There are two other French manuscripts as well, maybe it's from one of those.

can you post the links?

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Don't have any.
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Clyde Winters
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In South America the Blacks were separated into two Negro groups, one the Brazilians were described as "Black" or very dark, and the other Petogonians described as 'olive' skinned, i.e., light brown or yellowish like the Khoisan of South Africa.

This is supported by Pigafetta, who described the Brazilians as "so Black".

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The Fuegians were probably Khoisan. The Fuegians were not mongoloid Indians.

George Weber noted that: “First, it shows that people similar to those that inhabited the Lagoa Santa area, in central Brazil, and the area of Sabana de Bogota, in Colombia, once had a wide distribution across South America, reaching even the southernmost region of the sub-continent.”

Pigafetta, made it clear the South Americans were both “black” and “olive’, i.e., brownish/yellowish in complexion.

He added: Second, but intrinsically related to the first fact, that the non-Mongoloid morphology already demonstrated to occur in tropical and subtropical areas of South America.

Like the Khoisan, the Fuegian Blacks were described as yellowish, or olive tinged in hue, The only difference between the Khoisan and the Fuegians was the later had long hair.
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 -

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The Khoisan and Fuegians used the same tools , and built the same houses.

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.
In addition both groups spoke Click languages.

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Fuegians were probably Khoisan. The Fuegians were not mongoloid Indians.

George Weber noted that: “First, it shows that people similar to those that inhabited the Lagoa Santa area, in central Brazil, and the area of Sabana de Bogota, in Colombia, once had a wide distribution across South America, reaching even the southernmost region of the sub-continent.”

Pigafetta, made it clear the South Americans were both “black” and “olive’, i.e., brownish/yellowish in complexion.

He added: Second, but intrinsically related to the first fact, that the non-Mongoloid morphology already demonstrated to occur in tropical and subtropical areas of South America.

Like the Khoisan, the Fuegian Blacks were described as yellowish, or olive tinged in hue, The only difference between the Khoisan and the Fuegians was the later had long hair.
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 -

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The Khoisan and Fuegians used the same tools , and built the same houses.

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.
In addition both groups spoke Click languages.

i disagree with the khoisan being related to the fuegians

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Khoisan and Fuegian mothers

.
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.

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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
Don't have any.

here is a french version mentioning woolly hair

"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ...
By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18

https://books.google.com/books?id=HgYPAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA161&dq=antonio+pigafetta&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjG0qrEpLPXAhWI0YMKHdauBLY4FBDoAQhUMAY#v=onepage&q=cheveux%20laineux&f=false

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Journal of Magellan's Voyage
Call Number:
Beinecke MS 351 (Request the physical item to view in our reading room)
Creator: Pigafetta, Antonio, ca. 1480/91-ca. 1534
Language:
French
Date: ca. 1525

Journal of Ferdinand Magellan's voyage around the world in 1522, written by Antonio Pigafetta, Italian gentleman from Vincenza who survived the trip.
Manuscript on parchment (fine) of A journal of Ferdinand Magellan's voyage around the world in 1522, written by Antonio Pigafetta (ca. 1480/91 - ca. 1534), an Italian gentleman from Vincenza who survived the trip. Beinecke MS 351, the text of which is divided into 57 numbered chapters, is the most complete and most handsomely produced manuscript of the four surviving witnesses to the text; the original, probably in Italian, is now lost.

Pigafetta kept a detailed journal, the original of which is lost. However, an account of the voyage, written by Pigafetta between 1522 and 1525, survives in four manuscript versions: one in Italian and three in French. This version, in French, is from the library of Yale University, and is the most complete and handsomely produced of the four surviving manuscripts.


______________________________________________________

To see the online book

https://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/3438401

^^ go below larger book image to slider thumbnails
move slider slightly to right and click on any page once (dont enlarge yet)
notice under larger image a number
Go forward or backward to
page 9v


to enlarge hit "image view" and click again ( don't select zoom view)

for beginning of Brazil section go two pages
backward to 8v

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the original manuscript is lost

Carlo Amoretti seen the original

The one on the left looks abridged

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
the original manuscript is lost

Carlo Amoretti seen the original

The one on the left looks abridged

On the above version at left

Pigafetta kept a detailed journal, the original of which is lost. However, an account of the voyage, written by Pigafetta between 1522 and 1525, survives in four manuscript versions: one in Italian and three in French. This version, in French, is from the library of Yale University, and is the most complete and handsomely produced of the four surviving manuscripts.

https://www.wdl.org/en/item/3082/

the original by Pigafetta is lost however the very same Pigafetta who wrote the original version wrote the above as well, in retrospect of his voyage

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Before you complain you should understand what this text says and also look at the pages before and ahead of it before you jump to conclusions
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Before you complain you should understand what this text says and also look at the pages before and ahead of it before you jump to conclusions

The fact that the original is lost (which Carlo amoretti seen) leaves some doubt in its completeness and originality.

If the original is lost, how do World Digital Library know it is complete?

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The original is lost where Pigafetta was taking notes on location. However this version is also written by Pigafetta looking back later recollectively. It's a illuminated manuscript with hand painted illustrations and hand written calligraphic writing


Among other things Amoretti modernized the Italian of Pigafetta's text. His edition was the basis for the writings on Magellan's expedition by Jose Toribio Medina and Francis Hill H. Guillemard whose biography of Magellan is still considered the leading work on the Portuguese navigator. Navigation historians and Magellan scholars, among them James Alexander Robertson, Donald D. Brand, and Martin Torodash, fault Amoretti's edition for taking liberties with Pigafetta's text. Robertson accused Amoretti of committing "the sin of editing the precious document, almost beyond recognition." Brand describes the work as "somewhat garbled." Theodore J. Cachey Jr. (The First Voyage Around the World, (1519-1522), An Account of Magellan's Expedition by Antonio Pigafetta, New York: 1995) called Amoretti's edition as having "bowdlerized the text in an effort to 'exposit with the necessary decency the account of some strange customs written by him [Pigafetta] in frank terms which would offend the delicacy and modesty of the reader of good taste."

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair

"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ...
By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18

This is Amoretti's translation of the Italian ms into French, not one of the originally French versions. I guess it explains where the woolly hair in Burney and the others comes from, but why did Amoretti put it in?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per+la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+da l+cavaliere+Antonio+Pigafetta

Forum software is fucking up the link, but anyway that's supposed to be a link to Amoretti's original Italian edition, which has been criticized for being heavily edited, "in places almost beyond recognition". Even he, in his rather free modernization, doesn't mention woolly hair. He only says "they don't have long hair, nor beards, nor hair in any part, because they pluck it."

The Italian manuscript used by Carlo Amoretti is not lost, it is in the Ambrosiana Library in Milan, and multiple transcriptions have been published, including the one linked above. What is lost is the hypothetical original written by Pigafetta which the surviving manuscripts derive from. Amoretti never saw this original, rather he found the Ambrosiana version, which still exists.

Completeness is with respect to the surviving manuscript tradition, as obviously you can't compare them to a lost original from 500 years ago.

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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair

"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ...
By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18

This is Amoretti's translation of the Italian ms into French, not one of the originally French versions. I guess it explains where the woolly hair in Burney and the others comes from, but why did Amoretti put it in?

[url= https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per+la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+da l+cavaliere+Antonio+Pigafetta]https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per +la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+da l+cavaliere+Antonio+Pigafetta[/url]

Forum software is fucking up the link, but anyway that's supposed to be a link to Amoretti's original Italian edition, which has been criticized for being heavily edited, "in places almost beyond recognition". Even he, in his rather free modernization, doesn't mention woolly hair. He only says "they don't have long hair, nor beards, nor hair in any part, because they pluck it."

The Italian manuscript used by Carlo Amoretti is not lost, it is in the Ambrosiana Library in Milan, and multiple transcriptions have been published, including the one linked above. What is lost is the hypothetical original written by Pigafetta which the surviving manuscripts derive from. Amoretti never saw this original, rather he found the Ambrosiana version, which still exists.

Completeness is with respect to the surviving manuscript tradition, as obviously you can't compare them to a lost original from 500 years ago.

Pigafetta kept a detailed journal, the original of which is lost. However, an account of the voyage, written by Pigafetta between 1522 and 1525, survives in four manuscript versions: one in Italian and three in French. This version, in French, is from the library of Yale University, and is the most complete and handsomely produced of the four surviving manuscripts.

That's what I posted, from your earlier link pre-Amoretti'

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The original is lost where Pigafetta was taking notes on location. However this version is also written by Pigafetta looking back later recollectively. It's a illuminated manuscript with hand painted illustrations and hand written calligraphic writing


Among other things Amoretti modernized the Italian of Pigafetta's text. His edition was the basis for the writings on Magellan's expedition by Jose Toribio Medina and Francis Hill H. Guillemard whose biography of Magellan is still considered the leading work on the Portuguese navigator. Navigation historians and Magellan scholars, among them James Alexander Robertson, Donald D. Brand, and Martin Torodash, fault Amoretti's edition for taking liberties with Pigafetta's text. Robertson accused Amoretti of committing "the sin of editing the precious document, almost beyond recognition." Brand describes the work as "somewhat garbled." Theodore J. Cachey Jr. (The First Voyage Around the World, (1519-1522), An Account of Magellan's Expedition by Antonio Pigafetta, New York: 1995) called Amoretti's edition as having "bowdlerized the text in an effort to 'exposit with the necessary decency the account of some strange customs written by him [Pigafetta] in frank terms which would offend the delicacy and modesty of the reader of good taste."

"ames Alexander Robertson, Donald D. Brand, and Martin Torodash"
Have any of these men seen the original?

it would be a big help if you had a primary source supporting that pigafetta wrote it

back to the main topic
"the central portions of tierra de fuego are inhabited by a race of corpulent, strong, and muscular natives, whose height sometimes exceed six feet. their skin is of a clear copper color, and is soft and oily to the touch. their dark, lusterless, woolly hair falls in tufts around a large tonsure, cut close in the top of the head." Monthly Consular and Trade Reports, Volume 23, Issues 81-84
By United States. Bureau of Manufactures pg 392
https://books.google.com/books?id=eExJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA392&dq=woolly+hair+terra+de+fuego&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdvemhy7TXAhUl9YMKHfKaBegQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=woolly%20hair%20terra%20d e%20fuego&f=false

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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
here is a french version mentioning woolly hair

"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ...
By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18

This is Amoretti's translation of the Italian ms into French, not one of the originally French versions. I guess it explains where the woolly hair in Burney and the others comes from, but why did Amoretti put it in?

[url= https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per+la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+da l+cavaliere+Antonio+Pigafetta]https://books.google.ca/books?id=Xy94IBfxo_UC&dq=Primo+viaggio+intorno+al+globo+terracqueo+ossia+ragguaglio+della+navigazione+alle+Indie+orientali+per +la+via+d%27occidente+fatta+da l+cavaliere+Antonio+Pigafetta[/url]

Forum software is fucking up the link, but anyway that's supposed to be a link to Amoretti's original Italian edition, which has been criticized for being heavily edited, "in places almost beyond recognition". Even he, in his rather free modernization, doesn't mention woolly hair. He only says "they don't have long hair, nor beards, nor hair in any part, because they pluck it."

The Italian manuscript used by Carlo Amoretti is not lost, it is in the Ambrosiana Library in Milan, and multiple transcriptions have been published, including the one linked above. What is lost is the hypothetical original written by Pigafetta which the surviving manuscripts derive from. Amoretti never saw this original, rather he found the Ambrosiana version, which still exists.

Completeness is with respect to the surviving manuscript tradition, as obviously you can't compare them to a lost original from 500 years ago.

Quote from above Amoretti

quote:

INTORNO AL GLOBO 19 rammemorare la vittoria riportata sui nímici (a). Femmi tutto If I9
questo racconto Giovan Carvajo (b) noſtro piloto, che quat tro anni era itato in queſto paese .
I Brasiliesi sono olivaſtri anzi che neri: vanno ígnudi non coprendo nemmeno le parti sessuali;~ma sidipingono stranamente tutto il corpo e’l volto col fuoco in diverse ma niere; e lo fanno le donne come igli uomini. Non hanno lunga capigliatura, ne’barba, ne’peli in alcuna parte, perchè
'fi pelano (c) . Hanno veſti di piume di papagallo fatte in maniera, che le grandi penne dell’uccello formano dietro un cerchio a ruota (d), che a noſtri occhi era cosa- assai ridicola. Quasi tutti gli uomini (non però* le femmine .e i fanciulli) hanno al labbro di sotto tre buchi dai quali pendono de’ ci




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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


it would be a big help if you had a primary source supporting that pigafetta wrote it


Wake up I already provided the link, this is handwritten before Amoretti, primary source
DATE made 1525

https://www.wdl.org/en/item/3082/

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


it would be a big help if you had a primary source supporting that pigafetta wrote it


Wake up I already provided the link, this is handwritten before Amoretti, primary source
DATE made 1525

https://www.wdl.org/en/item/3082/

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 -


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no
im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work

in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian

For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be pigafetta

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This 1883 picture is of some indigenous Fuegians

Now if there was another group that looked like Africans also there, no remains of such different type of group have been found

If such group that looked like Africans were also there.
There is no way of knowing when they got there, if it was 600 years ago or 8,000


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An Asian man from Papua New Guinea


a Papua New Guinean, a Bougainville Islander and a Han Chinese – showed that between 4% and 6% of the genome of Melanesians (represented by the Papua New Guinean and Bougainville Islander) derives from a Denisovan population; a later study puts the amount at 1.11% (with an additional contribution from some different and yet unknown ancestor)


The Denisovan or Denisova hominin ( /dɪˈniːsəvə/ di-NEE-sə-və) is an extinct species or subspecies of human in the genus Homo. Pending its status as either species or subspecies it currently carries the temporary names Homo sp. Altai,[1] or Homo sapiens ssp. Denisova.[2][3] In March 2010, scientists announced the discovery of a finger bone fragment of a juvenile female who lived about 41,000 years ago, found in the remote Denisova Cave in the Altai Mountains in Siberia, a cave that has also been inhabited by Neanderthals and modern humans.[4][5][6] The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of the finger bone showed it to be genetically distinct from Neanderthals and modern humans

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work

in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian

For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be pigafetta

with this standard you are going to have to throw out most historical documents, certainly all of ancient history. just be sure not to keep only the bits you like.
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
im mean like someone or some thing that was or who was his contemporary that can vouch for this work

in case you haven't noticed, im not a gullible historian

For all we know this document could be written by anybody claiming to be pigafetta

with this standard you are going to have to throw out most historical documents, certainly all of ancient history. just be sure not to keep only the bits you like.
Most historical documents are supported by contemporaries

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Questions expose liars

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"Now if there was another group that looked like Africans also there, no remains of such different type of group have been found"- the lioness
julio popper exterminated a large portion of them

possibly killed them off with diseases or warfare

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capra
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There are numerous descriptions of Tierro del Fuego natives before Popper, none of them describe negroids. The only evidence you actually have offered is Ihle's illustration. So you are being super skeptical about the authenticity of 16th century manuscripts of Pigafetta, but depictions by some German dude, with zero supporting evidence that he had an accurate idea what he was drawing, are A-OK? That's a hell of a double standard, buddy.

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Most historical documents are supported by contemporaries

What do you mean by that?
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
There are numerous descriptions of Tierro del Fuego natives before Popper, none of them describe negroids. The only evidence you actually have offered is Ihle's illustration. So you are being super skeptical about the authenticity of 16th century manuscripts of Pigafetta, but depictions by some German dude, with zero supporting evidence that he had an accurate idea what he was drawing, are A-OK? That's a hell of a double standard, buddy.

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Most historical documents are supported by contemporaries

What do you mean by that?
i never claimed they were negroid because i never lived back then

"So you are being super skeptical about the authenticity of 16th century manuscripts of Pigafetta but depictions by some German dude, with zero supporting evidence that he had an accurate idea what he was drawing, are A-OK? That's a hell of a double standard, buddy." - capra

I never said i wasn't skeptical about ihle. The photo by the German illustrator raises questions about a negroid people in tierra del fuego

As far as pigafetta, do you at least have the other manuscripts dating to his time that we can cross reference before we accuse amoretti of fallacy

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