posted
Since the "when to use black' thread has been closed, I will use this thread as a counter voice to some who keep claiming only their subjective concept of 'black' is valid, and that other concepts are racist, subjective, conspiracies or that concepts other than theirs don't even exist.
I will post some examples of Africans having disagreements among themselves about who is or isn't 'black'. I will also post other examples of ironies that result from the many uses of the term 'black', which some here don't want to acknowledge as existing and current sentiments. This way, I'll have something to bump whenever this conversations flares up again. In many ways this is a pointless thread, because everyone already knows there are many concepts of who is/isn't black, some of which point blank exclude Africans. But somehow when the stakes are high (e.g. ancient Egypt) confusion and denial set in .
BTW, to clarify what compelled me to make this thread. I accidentally came across Kola Boof's statements on 'blackness'. I thought they were interesting, considering the suggestion by some that if you ignore Hamiticism and the True Negro fallacy, you will somehow be left with the one authentic concept of blackness, shared by all who aren't brainwashed by 'white' people. If that were true, then Africans, and African immigrants unaffected by western notions about race should define 'blackness' the same way.
Here are examples of how Kola Boof delimits 'blackness' among African Americans:
Boof says: Nigerian rapper Wale didn't use 'black' girls in his video. The dark skinned girls he did use don't count, because they're not dark skinned enough:
quote:While Wale’s video for “Pretty Girls” did receive harsh criticism because many people felt it did not feature any darker skinned women, there were several Black women who appeared throughout the video. However, Boof’s insistence that Wale doesn’t feature “Black women” in his videos, when he clearly does, leads us to another fascinating dialogue.
Who or what defines Blackness?
For some, like Boof, Blackness isn’t defined by simply having some African ancestry. One glance at her timeline and it’s clear that when Boof says “Black” she means, African women, or darker hued sisters with “kinky hair,” which for those of us in America, can be a problematic definition.
Through various tweets Boof repeatedly discussed “authentic Blackness” and labeled those such as Denzel Washington, Ester Rolle, and Lauryn Hill as possibly being “authentically Black,” while sisters like Beyonce fall outside of the confines of Blackness in Boof’s mind.
posted
Most people in the world don't know what everybody else looks like in terms of color or facial features so black if people want to use it can only discribe pigmentation,here's a video of a Tunisia girl questioning other Africans whether she is Arab,they seem not know Arab is a culture and black and brown Arabic types exist.
posted
this only proves the US does not have a monopoly on determining what is black, white, etc. From region to region or culture to culture racial identity takes on different dimensions.
posted
And most of the world is going to follow whatever Europe is doing or has previously done on the race issue. Kola Boof can have her opinions, but if were being very honest, unless their beliefs are shared by whites, who most Africans decide to believe are black is not enforced through a global socioeconomic (and anti black) movement. I can believe Germans are black, but that doesn't mean I have the global backing for that opinion to impact people's lives. So if someone else is caught up in that crossfire, it's not her right to tell them it didn't happen. And of the white countries the U.S is still both one of the most expressive of it's racism and among the most influential of white countries. THAT is why their racial definitions get lots of attention.. I think another discussion would be Sudaniya's talk of Torres Strait and Australian Aboriginals being black even though they're not African. Lioness also was talking about blackness being about appearance in another thread so that seems to be of a similar position too.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Most people in the world don't know what everybody else looks like in terms of color or facial features so black if people want to use it can only discribe pigmentation here's a video of a Tunisia girl questioning other Africans whether she is Arab,they seem not know Arab is a culture and black and brown Arabic types exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong. So you're saying Boof, who is a Sudanese-Egyptian immigrant who grew up in a country right next to the Arabian peninsula, does not know there are dark skinned Arabians? And that this ignorance of dark skinned Arabians is why she has a narrow concept of 'blackness'?
BTW, I'm no expert, but 'Arab' is not a culture. Arabs are a people, thought to have a specific ethnogenesis. The dark skinned people you're talking about are Arabians, not (necessarily) Arabs. Not saying there are no dark Arabs, but to my knowledge 'Arab' is a very specific word that doesn't encompass all ancient and modern Arabian people.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
These are ignorant remarks, hard to take seriously.
Classifying people by skin color is not traditional to Africa. Obviously Zendaya has strong African features but is also lighter skinned, closer to Jacob Zuma's skin tone rather than Sudanese. Bolof likes to make outrageous remarks. "Black" is a European/American concept which includes features and hair. According to older American classification she would be called "Mulatto" or similar to "Creole "
However according to Dougianism "black" pertains to skin tone alone.
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
What do you find ignorant? Her over-the-top language or her denial that Zendaya is 'black'? And why?
Let's keep it on topic. No one has to like her delivery. That is beside the point. We're talking about the real phenomenon that some continental Africans have a narrow concept of blackness, that excludes Africans. These Africans don't accept the one drop rule. Is that ignorant?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What do you find ignorant? Her over top top language or her denial that Zendaya is 'black'? And why?
The language is a tip off that we are dealing with an emotion based point of view. And her degree of oinionated-ness does not correspond to recognizing that human beings often don't often fit neatly into simplistic European colorism nor does it acknowledge the lack of standard even to apply such categorizations. And then she says she doesn't care who the parents are it's if the person "come out looking black" (this is a writer? ) In other words " whatever I fell like looks black" .
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think she knows there are dark skinned Arabs. But many of them wouldn't be black where she lives and would have no idea what it'd be like to grow up and live as someone black. Still, she's not admitting is that is that people that look like Zendaya face anti black racism too. Not as bad on average, but it's still there.
quote:
You don't need "strong African features" to face anti black discrimination, especially when you're living among Europeans who created the whole race thing.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^Agree, but I'm trying to stay away from moralization in this thread, which is about African views on 'blackness' sometimes being in conflict. I don't want to get into whether it's good/bad/warrented/unjustified. I want to talk about the fact that these sentiments exist, and get people to acknowledge they exist independently of 'white' racism.
@Lioness My post has been edited while you were responding to it. Pls respond to the updated post. Boof (not "Bolof") rejects the one drop rule. Why is that ignorant?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
In some places in Africa they call somebody like this "white".
It is merely a relative thing showing how "black" has varying meaning and is not in American context
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Let's keep it on topic. No one has to like her delivery. That is beside the point. We're talking about the real phenomenon that some continental Africans have a narrow concept of blackness, that excludes Africans. These Africans don't accept the one drop rule. Is that ignorant?
The one drop rule is a racist Jim Crow concept although many black people being a minority in America like the rule because it adds to numbers and there is strength in numbers. However anyone anyone rejecting the rule is not ignorant. Zendaya is not one drop. Assuming she is comprised of 100 drops. Assuming her father was an AA averaging 80 drops she gets 40 drops from her father.
The one drop rule is politically advantageous to AAs not Africans
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
@Lioness My post has been edited while you were responding to it. Pls respond to the updated post. Boof (not "Bolof") rejects the one drop rule. Why is that ignorant?
It's not ignorant. It's largely dead. If people find you're 5% African, no one's going out of their way to say people are black anymore. Even the white supremacist movement is filled with people that have traces of African ancestry and the news seemed to enjoy covering the rage and butthurt over that. Today it's not about whether or not people can find any trace of it, but whether there are hints in a person's appearance. Got olive skin, tight curls, full lips but otherwise have mostly European features? That person's quite likely to be in for some problems. The whole AE thing touches on this. Did most AE probably look like the blacks that get the absolute WORST treatment (the "true negro" look)? Doubtful. But would they have likely been treated as black people among whites? I think we know the answer.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: In some places in Africa they call somebody like this "white".
It is merely a relative thing showing how "black" has varying meaning and is not in American context
If you've read that somewhere, feel free to post the book pages/sources. That is what this thread is for.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:The one drop rule is politically advantageous to AAs not Africans
It's not really about political advantage. AA don't claim people with trace African ancestry anymore. You do not see blacks accusing this guy of "self hate" because he's not black.
This guy finding out he's not pure European is not a "coon" but a white supremacist. What they (black people) will do though claim are people who may be light skinned with light hair but have features that indicate they're from Africa. Malcolm X and Bob Marley would be considered black in America. Not because of the advantage in their numbers but because people that look like them or a Tariq Nasheed WILL experience anti black racism even if their experiences were to differ in certain parts of Africa where there aren't many whites.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: In some places in Africa they call somebody like this "white".
It is merely a relative thing showing how "black" has varying meaning and is not in American context
If you've read that somewhere, feel free to post the book pages/sources. That is what this thread is for.
There are light skinned AAs who go to some places in Africa and get called "white" I'm not sure if there is a degree of jest in that. In Mauritania they call people "white Moors" and "black moors" The white ones are lighter but not as light as the average European
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] Zendaya Ethnicity: *African-American (father) *German, Irish, English, Scottish (mother)
It also has to do with who you associated with. If she hangs out with "black" people who are darker and chooses to call herself black in America, it's accepted. In Brazil they also have a brown category so it's relative to the country.
Let's assume for the sake of argument "black" = "African" not skin color. Then it would not be accurate to just call her "black", she is Afro-European, "brown" perhaps. So in Brazil she might still call herself black if she decided she like that social circle however if she was parts of a more European social circle she might call herself "pardo" (brown) It's relative to the country and who the person wants to be associated with. I say Zendaya has African features Bolof does not. It's all opinion. Does Bolof classify Zendaya as "white" ? Maybe if America has a black minority and had a one drop of black = black rule then with whites being a minority in Africa , one drop of white makes you white. That is logical.
But look at the Nigerian census I posted. They don't classify people by color
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
This goes back to the technical claims of DNA. When a cop is pulling you over he doesn't care how much DNA you got.
Men walking around looking like this
Are black
In Brazil pretos and many pardos are often still black (negros), but in Brazil they often make categorical distinctions that can address within the black community the problem of colorism.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:The one drop rule is politically advantageous to AAs not Africans
It's not really about political advantage. AA don't claim people with trace African ancestry anymore. You do not see blacks accusing this guy of "self hate" because he's not black.
This guy finding out he's not pure European is not a "coon" but a white supremacist. What they (black people) will do though claim are people who may be light skinned with light hair but have features that indicate they're from Africa. Malcolm X and Bob Marley would be considered black in America. Not because of the advantage in their numbers but because people that look like them or a Tariq Nasheed WILL experience anti black racism even if their experiences were to differ in certain parts of Africa where there aren't many whites.
That is not what I'm saying. Any person who is very light brown and if there is nothing negative about them it will be politically advantageous in a democratic country for the minority to claim them even if they are 60% not them
The behavior of an individual is a different matter outside of this.
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Roseanne Bar lost her show for making racist remarks. The fact that that happened means blacks have a certain amount of power in America.
So somebody else in another situation who is 40% African and 60% white could make a claim that they were harassed against because they are "black", then it is politically advantageous for them to say they are "black" rather than "mixed"
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
But why can't a black person be mixed with another ethnicity that doesn't experience anti black racism and still be black? You think Tariq or Malcolm X are fully African? Not all mixed people experience anti black racism, but many people with non blacks in their family tree can experience it because you don't need to be fully or even mostly African to be on the receiving end of anti black discrimination.
Also, it is not politically advantageous to attempt claiming people in America who DO NOT experience anti black racism and that guy above is precisely why. Imagine all the white trolls with traces of African ancestry that will vouch for the eradication of anti-racist movements (because they don't experience any anti black behavior). Claiming too many people who don't experience racism nullifies the entire argument that there is a very real problem of anti black discrimination.
Let's say for the sake of argument they claimed someone with only 30 percent African ancestry. Okay and? If a Stephen Curry is 30 percent African, but is treated on the streets of NYC with anti black discrimination, whatever he's got going on in DNA is irrelevant. People will understand looking at him that it's very probable he's been experiencing anti black discrimination and will claim them.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: If a Stephen Curry is 30 percent African, but is treated on the streets of NYC with anti black discrimination, whatever he's got going on in DNA is irrelevant. People will understand looking at him that it's very probable he's been experiencing anti black discrimination and will claim them.
Yes, you are agreeing. If Stephen Curry is 30 percent African and he was discriminated against then it would be politically advantageous in, for instance, an anti-discrimination law suit or as for his image in his responding to the media in interviews for him to say he is black rather than mixed
This is because blacks have organizations that will react to what is perceived as anti-black racism and if they become involved opponents will have more to deal with then just that one person
That is the politics of it, the reality, the DNA is another matter
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Suppose somebody is 30% African and 70% European.
Some racist cop thinks they look "black" so they harass them.
So now because of this they should always call themselves "black" rather than Afro-European. That means you are going in by who is in power what they think
Then the same person moves to live in to Nigeria and there is no racist cop and some of the local people say they aren't black
So then what how should they identify?
That is political
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm agreeing that there is an advantage in numbers, but it goes deeper than light skinned people taking advantage of black reaction and buzzwords. They're accepted in the community and the black community responds on their behalf because they know people that look like Curry experience anti black racism. Now if a Craig Cobb tried to say he were black that'd be met with some resistance.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If a cop pulls somebody over, what about it?
We should go by what some cop might do to determine identity ?
If a cop pulls you over because he's got an anti black attitude it doesn't matter what your DNA says. The justice system doesn't ask for it before treating you different for your race. Why do we go by what white institutions say to determine identity? Do you ask why women organize together, because they didn't create institutionalized misogyny? Racism creates a common interest in people who experience it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Then the same person moves to live in to Nigeria and there is no racist cop and some of the local people say they aren't black
So then what how should they identify?
Most will still identify as black, because even if they no longer among whites, racism in America often creates a life changing experience with lasting psychological impact. A light skinned person may still live in Nigeria but will for example relax their hair or wear weave without reflecting on it because of the lasting psychological and physical problems racism created in America. Their heritage was also defined by ideas of race/blackness, which is unique in the diaspora because races were made into an ethnic group. Which means a black person would be denying their history and heritage in a way someone who is partially Igbo wouldn't if they didn't identify with being black. To them they'd be part Igbo and German maybe mixed but maybe they wouldn't see themselves as black because where they lived ethnic groups aren't divided along racial lines.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
What you are saying is that a person identifying as black should be determined by the political situation they are in not their actual ancestry.
So if racists say you are black and they are running the country, you are black
If your DNA says you are 70% European but they say you are black you are black
You are what you are discriminated against for being
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Something like that. If you're 70 percent European, Native American (or both) but you "look black" enough to them then yes you're black. That's how you'll be treated and often most of your family members have been treated the same way for generations. Most of all, most light skinned blacks don't identify with European culture anymore than the next black person. .
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Something like that. If you're 70 percent European, Native American (or both) but you "look black" enough to them then yes you're black. That's how you'll be treated and often most of your family members have been treated the same way for generations. Most of all, most light skinned blacks don't identify with European culture anymore than the next black person.
So how they treat you is what you are
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's a combination of external treatment and existing cultural identity. The culture they identify with is black, the history of the forefathers (and foremothers) they identify with are black, and they are treated as blacks by the country they live in. Even if a Nigerian calls them white they're not going to scrap their speech, cooking, dance, etc and just be European. They have a black identity. The same hypothetical Nigerian probably wouldn't deny black Americans have a culture that defines who they are, so then why would it be weird that someone light skinned identify as black because his ancestors came from that culture?
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Feel free to have this off topic conversation until the 1st thread page runs out. But lioness can you repost my OP so that it reappears as the first post on the 2nd page? And please see to it that on the 2nd page the topic stays mostly on Africans having disagreements or varying views on 'blackness', independent of white racism. For instance, descriptive examples of what Africans think and how they disagree is on topic. Limited discussion on what people think about those usages should be allowed as long as these side-discussions don't start taking on a life of their own. But the main conversation should be descriptive examples of Africans having their own ideas about 'blackness' (see the OP with Boof as an example).
This is supposed to be a relatively 'clean' bumpable thread with information that describes different uses of 'black' among Africans. Can't exactly have a bumpable thread when it's a wild wild west with several topics being discussed at the same time.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: In some places in Africa they call somebody like this "white".
It is merely a relative thing showing how "black" has varying meaning and is not in American context
If you've read that somewhere, feel free to post the book pages/sources. That is what this thread is for.
There are light skinned AAs who go to some places in Africa and get called "white" I'm not sure if there is a degree of jest in that. In Mauritania they call people "white Moors" and "black moors" The white ones are lighter but not as light as the average European
Pls elaborate on that with sources on the 2nd page when we start over. I'm not challenging you on this issue, BTW. I'm asking you to contribute what you know to the thread topic so that others have something to read in what is supposed to be a bumpable reference thread.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
Lighter skinned blacks. And to answer your previous question being black is a combination of external treatment and existing cultural identity.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Lighter skinned blacks. And to answer your previous question being black is a combination of external treatment and existing cultural identity.
You really including that in your definition? I don't agree with that as a valid guideline, but then again, it's not about what I or any one person thinks. It's just more evidence that different people have different ideas about what 'black' means to them. The problem is when people try to pretend their use is etched in the universal bible of 'blackness' and that other uses don't exist or that they're outrageous fabrications created by white people.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Swenet is there a widespread African confusion/shift when discussing AE? Where are you seeing this?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Lighter skinned blacks. And to answer your previous question being black is a combination of external treatment and existing cultural identity.
You really including that in your definition? I don't agree with that as a valid guideline, but then again, it's not about what I or any one person thinks. It's just more evidence that different people have different ideas about what 'black' means to them. The problem is when people try to pretend their use is etched in the universal bible of 'blackness' and that other uses don't exist or that they're outrageous fabrications created by white people.
She asked if in a country surrounded by Africans that didn't see them an AA as black, would that AA stop thinking of themselves as black? The answer would often be no. Blackness to most black Americans is a cultural and ethnic concept handed down by the ancestors (that matter) to them. They're sacrificing more than racial politics but cultural/ethnic identity. This is NOT the same in other countries which I believe I said. "Black" isn't what you hand down but moreso local tribal identity. Most people kidnapped from Africa hundreds of years ago don't have that or are mixed with so many different tribes that it doesn't work out as well.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Swenet is there a widespread African confusion/shift when discussing AE? Where are you seeing this?
What I mean is I can't square the difference in opinion among Africans regarding 'blackness' with what is said in many of the conversations here. For instance, no census I know in the real world (e.g. Caribbean) has people from India as 'black' people. This reflects how people on the ground, in the real world, delimit 'blackness'. Members of this site are free to think these people are 'black' in the pigmentation sense, as I used to do back in the day. But at no point was I ever under the illusion that I was using the one true definition that can/should trump other notions of 'blackness'. I just thought it was the most scientifically defensible out of all the other uses (since pigmentation is measurable). But now in every discussion on 'black' you have to remind some members there is a real world out there with different uses of the term even among Africans, like they're not aware of that. That is what I mean. When people say someone is 'black', they're really saying they are 'black' in their own use of that term. They don't speak for other people. The person under examination won't necessarily be 'black' under someone else's use of the term.
quote:Originally posted by Oshun:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Lighter skinned blacks. And to answer your previous question being black is a combination of external treatment and existing cultural identity.
You really including that in your definition? I don't agree with that as a valid guideline, but then again, it's not about what I or any one person thinks. It's just more evidence that different people have different ideas about what 'black' means to them. The problem is when people try to pretend their use is etched in the universal bible of 'blackness' and that other uses don't exist or that they're outrageous fabrications created by white people.
She asked if in a country surrounded by Africans that didn't see them an AA as black, would that AA stop thinking of themselves as black? The answer would often be no. Blackness to most black Americans is a cultural and ethnic concept handed down by the ancestors (that matter) to them. They're sacrificing more than racial politics but cultural/ethnic identity. This is NOT the same in other countries which I believe I said. "Black" isn't what you hand down but moreso local tribal identity. Most people kidnapped from Africa hundreds of years ago don't have that or are mixed with so many different tribes that it doesn't work out as well.
Ok
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
^Thanks. I will look up those links. If you feel there is something worth highlighting here from those links feel free to post it. To make sure it's informative, it's better if the examples posted are culture-specific (as opposed to just Africans arguing personal views). For instance, Boof's refusal to accept the one drop rule is not specific to her. Some Africans feel that way, so it tells you something about how some Africans feel about the one drop rule. If it was just Boof feeling that way it wouldn't be informative. It would just be a rant on her part.
Here is another example of notions about 'blackness' being rooted in culture (i.e. more than just a privately held opinion):
quote:The myth of the Nama and Bergdama defines the difference between the two peoples as one of skin colour, whereby both tend to stick to the most visible sign Of their dissimilarity: the Nama, who belong to the Khoisan, are considered to be "red", and the black- African Bergdama "black". The Nama relate how, in ancient times, two women slaughtered an animal and chose between the liver and the lungs; one chose the lungs and her descendants, the Nama, became red, while the other took the remaining liver, and her descendants, the Bergdama, became black.26 The Bergdama tell Of how an Ox was slaughtered; the first woman picked up the lungs, only to replace them in order to eat the liver, and the children of this woman became the black Bergdama. The other woman ate the left-over lungs and became the mother of the red Nama.27 For both the Nama and the Bergdama, lungs are better than liver, and it is better to be red than black. The two versions reveal one single difference, namely that the ancestress Of the Nama makes the choice in the Nama version, while the ancestress of the Bergdama chooses in the Bergdama version. The significance Of this differ- ence can be left aside for the moment, for it will come to light when we follow up the broader dispersion of the choice-motif.
quote:In local Namibian parlance, the San are not classed as black. Neither black nor white, they are classified—and often refer to themselves—as red people. This may be a little confusing, as there are some Nama who refer to themselves, and are known, as the Red Nation.
Here we have a descriptive example of Africans having a notion of 'blackness' that is based in ideology and completely unique to them. This narrow notion of 'blackness' excludes the Nama and many other Africans. The Nama in this example don't see reddish skin as part of the 'black' spectrum, similar to Boof. So there is a clear disagreement between African American and Nama notions about 'blackness'.
[ 13. June 2018, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: This goes back to the technical claims of DNA. When a cop is pulling you over he doesn't care how much DNA you got.
Men walking around looking like this
Are black
In Brazil pretos and many pardos are often still black (negros), but in Brazil they often make categorical distinctions that can address within the black community the problem of colorism.
This whole idea about what "white people think", or what a "non black cop would do" when pulling someone over is ridiculous. Non-black people aren't the ones who decide who and what is a black person, and personally I think American-Africans should be VERY careful when talking about this topic, as they are HEAVILY indoctrinated by the "one-drop"/hypodescent rule. Where I'm from, Zendaya and people like her would be referred to as white/colored/mulatto/half-caste , regardless of what that makes one feel.
Posts: 117 | From: Earth | Registered: Feb 2014
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Thanks. I will look up those links. If you feel there is something worth highlighting here from those links feel free to post it. To make sure it's informative, it's better if the examples posted are culture-specific (as opposed to just Africans arguing personal views). For instance, Boof's refusal to accept the one drop rule is not specific to her. Some Africans feel that way, so it tells you something about how some Africans feel about the one drop rule. If it was just Boof feeling that way it wouldn't be informative. It would just be a rant on her part.
Here is another example of notions about 'blackness' being rooted in culture (i.e. more than just a privately held opinion):
quote:The myth of the Nama and Bergdama defines the difference between the two peoples as one of skin colour, whereby both tend to stick to the most visible sign Of their dissimilarity: the Nama, who belong to the Khoisan, are considered to be "red", and the black- African Bergdama "black". The Nama relate how, in ancient times, two women slaughtered an animal and chose between the liver and the lungs; one chose the lungs and her descendants, the Nama, became red, while the other took the remaining liver, and her descendants, the Bergdama, became black.26 The Bergdama tell Of how an Ox was slaughtered; the first woman picked up the lungs, only to replace them in order to eat the liver, and the children of this woman became the black Bergdama. The other woman ate the left-over lungs and became the mother of the red Nama.27 For both the Nama and the Bergdama, lungs are better than liver, and it is better to be red than black. The two versions reveal one single difference, namely that the ancestress Of the Nama makes the choice in the Nama version, while the ancestress of the Bergdama chooses in the Bergdama version. The significance Of this differ- ence can be left aside for the moment, for it will come to light when we follow up the broader dispersion of the choice-motif.
quote:In local Namibian parlance, the San are not classed as black. Neither black nor white, they are classified—and often refer to themselves—as red people. This may be a little confusing, as there are some Nama who refer to themselves, and are known, as the Red Nation.
Here we have a descriptive example of Africans having a notion of 'blackness' that is based in ideology and completely unique to them. This narrow notion of 'blackness' excludes the Nama and many other Africans. The Nama in this example don't see reddish skin as part of the 'black' spectrum, similar to Boof. So there is a clear disagreement between African American and Nama notions about 'blackness'.
My cousin's daughter is half Aawambo/Nama, she inherited her mother's phenotype like the girl in the middle :
And this:
Thus she's humorously often referred to as "the white girl"
That being said, Nama speaking people vary in complexion, from light/medium-brown to dark brown like this lady :
[ 13. June 2018, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posts: 117 | From: Earth | Registered: Feb 2014
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I was present when a man from Gabon called the man below "The white man of Africa," to which he not only did not object but also restrained a Black American from objecting.
quote:Originally posted by Gedegbe: A more similar conception would be that of my ethnic people (Aja-Fon) from West Africa who call themselves (me-wi) "black-people" (cf Egyptians calling them black (people)), when referring to them along with their neighbors like the Yoruba, Bariba, Akan regardless as they are pitch-black skinned, brown skinned, light skinned, etc as opposed to Europeans.
Among these people, we consider different nuances of skin tone. If we talk about a specific me-wi as being "nya-wi" (male-black) or as "na-wi" (female-black), it will be a reference to their "very dark or pitch black complexion". a "nya-wi"
If we talk about somebody as a "nya-vo(2)"(male-red), or "na-vo(3)" (female-red), it will be a reference to their lighter than average skin complexion. (3)
(2)
a na-wi and a nya-wi
Only the intermediary brown/darkbrown usual complexion(4;5), won't require the use of a distinctive color adjective. Two "regular" me-wi
Senegalese egyptologist Aboubacry Moussa LAM reported the case of two middle (?) kingdom brothers, one being called Pepi the Red, and the other, Pepi the Black. It could describe two brothers one with light, and the other with very dark skinned complexion.
quote:Originally posted by Young H.O.R.U.S: In Nigeria, among the Yoruba people, there have always been 3 human colour classifications. • We generally refer to ourselves as Dudu/Black, • light-skinned Africans are referred to as Pupa/Red-Yellow (think 'palm oil') and • Funfun/White (albinos).
People need to stop generalising about Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: ... the USA idea of black is not Africa's idea. In Africa people are recognized by their actual tone or the tone of the majority of their ethny.
Ethiopia has a three colour terminology tequr:black teyem:brown qey:red Sudan azraq:blue akhdar:green asmar:brown ahmar:red asfar:yellow Fon me-wi:black people nya/na-wi:male/female black (very dark or pitch black complexion nya/na-vo:male/female red (lighter than average skin complexion Yoruba dudu:black light-skinned Africans are referred to as pupa:red-yellow (think 'palm oil') and funfun:White (albinos). Ibo ojii:black ocha:white
Then there are the Kel taGelmust with their various designations for themselves, coastal Berbers, and Gnawas, yellow, white, grey; or internal assignments by class noble, vassal, and enslaved, red green black.
Unlike for some Diasporans, black is only a descriptor. But for some Diasporans Black is the only identity they have.
Thanks for clarifying from an African perspective. Where my folks are from (Caribbean) she would be described as red, kind of like African American 'redbone'.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1: [QUOTE]This whole idea about what "white people think", or what a "non black cop would do" when pulling someone over is ridiculous. Non-black people aren't the ones who decide who and what is a black person
Race itself is a "non black" invention. No matter how much black people want to "decide," we know most of us would probably get rid of race if we could and go back to (or stick with) tribal systems. Race is a reflection of problems with defining our lives the way we want. Because we didn't invent race, our independent definitions aren't often very influential across the world. If you live in a European country the fact you don't get to choose your race is hammered into you very early--sometimes with violence. This is why it matters to AA.
Because of "how white people think" AA were forced to share the same spaces, exchange ideas and make a common cultures regardless of previous tribes, shades or mixture. So in the U.S "black" is a culture or ethnic group which is in part AA are so inclusive. When telling someone they're not "black" it's taking history and culture from someone in America. However in many African countries the abuses AA experienced did not happen and so you wouldn't say your culture is "black." You'd say your culture is for example Ashanti, Igbo or Somali. You don't have to tread as lightly to say "so and so isn't black" because you're not taking a person's history and culture.
quote: I think American-Africans should be VERY careful when talking about this topic, as they are HEAVILY indoctrinated by the "one-drop"/hypodescent rule. Where I'm from, Zendaya and people like her would be referred to as white/colored/mulatto/half-caste , regardless of what that makes one feel.
It is not "indoctrination" because AA don't follow the one drop rule. The "one drop rule" would mean white supremacists like Craig Cobb could receive black scholarships or could express his opinion of the black community as though he were a member of it. Stephen Curry could apply for a black scholarship with no social outrage for reasons unique to the U.S history. Which is why, when black people say "The AE are black" in the U.S (and in other parts of Europe with a similar history), it makes sense because they're talking about whose black where they live. If in another black country AE wouldn't be considered black but they're being claimed that would be strange. In the U.S you can be black with mixture, you can be black and have several features that appear more frequently in other races. In the U.S entire communities and cultures of people were shaped around a common history. Many of black heroes like Fredrick Douglass and Malcolm X were heavily mixed and/or light skinned. Did a shared history between light and dark skinned blacks (or would-be blacks) happen everywhere? No. So do blacks everywhere have the same definitions? No. But I don't see the contradiction of Africans who hold that view claiming AE. That part confuses me.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
some googlebooks or other URL links can be very long and it causes the thread pages to widen too much.
Instead of copying and pasting the link into a post please use the URL button in edit mode
Alternatively without using the URL button some but not all URLS can first be pasted into a post and then the back half of the URL deleted and it still works. Test in preview by clicking
(I have already made the adjustments in this page)
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic