posted
The distribution of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H in southern Iberia indicates ancient human genetic exchanges along the western edge of the Mediterranean. - Hernández CL
Idiots need not apply
Abstract BACKGROUND: The structure of haplogroup H reveals significant differences between the western and eastern edges of the Mediterranean, as well as between the northern and southern regions. Human populations along the westernmost Mediterranean coasts, which were settled by individuals from two continents separated by a relatively narrow body of water, show the highest frequencies (Ha! HA! Ha! )of mitochondrial haplogroup H. These characteristics permit the analysis of ancient migrations between both shores, which may have occurred via primitive sea crafts and early seafaring. We collected a sample of 750 autochthonous people from the southern Iberian Peninsula (Andalusians from Huelva and Granada provinces). We performed a high-resolution analysis of haplogroup H by control region sequencing and coding SNP screening of the 337 individuals harboring this maternal marker. Our results were compared with those of a wide panel of populations, including individuals from Iberia, the Maghreb, and other regions around the Mediterranean, collected from the literature. RESULTS: Both Andalusian subpopulations showed a typical western European profile for the internal composition of clade H, but eastern Andalusians from Granada also revealed interesting traces from the eastern Mediterranean. The basal nodes of the most frequent H sub-haplogroups, H1 and H3, harbored many individuals of Iberian and Maghrebian origins. Derived haplotypes were found in both regions; haplotypes were shared far more frequently between Andalusia and Morocco than between Andalusia and the rest of the Maghreb. These and previous results indicate intense, ancient and sustained contact among populations on both sides of the Mediterranean. CONCLUSIONS: Our genetic data on mtDNA diversity, combined with corresponding archaeological similarities, provide support for arguments favoring prehistoric bonds with a genetic legacy traceable in extant populations. Furthermore, the results presented here indicate that the Strait of Gibraltar and the adjacent Alboran Sea, which have often been assumed to be an insurmountable geographic barrier in prehistory, served as a FREQUENTLY traveled route between continents.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
As I said many times. Europeans are depigmented Africans...BOTH male and females. The women arrived first and met the black Europeans....He! HE! Just kidding, but you get the point. And before the fucgked questions start being asked. Autosomally these mtDNA H Africans carried "Eurasian" ancestry 21,000 years ago.
Quote: " This technical progress increased phylogenetic resolution, thus demonstrating that i) the number of internal branches shaping clade H is significantly greater than in other mtDNA Hgs widespread in Europe [7], and ii) the observed Hg H variation in eastern regions (e.g., Near/ Middle East and Caucasus) shows MARKED DIFFERENCES to that found in western Europe [9]."
" The estimated coalescence time for Hg H (~21,000 years ago, ya) has led to the proposal that the clade was involved in a post-glacial population reexpansion from southwestern Europe to the rest of the continent."
The pre-historic distribution of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H in Africa and Europe May2017
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
To those who don't get it. This is a rebuttal to Kefi et al. "The war is on!!!". Europeans are fighting back. Let us do a deep analysis. No stupid comments.
Keep in mind this is prior to 3000ya Pgani et al (when the supposed "Eurasian" back-migrated.)
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wasn't aware they completely sequenced "African" lineage in Spain...proving a pre-historic connection ...before slavery lol!. Now these fools are trying to spin that L, M U6 is African ....BUT!!!!!!! but H. A big ..but! SMH. Look at the data.
But this paper proves my point. There seems to have a been an ancient now submerged connection between West Africa and Europe. There is a heavy African presence not only on the western main land of Europe but definitely the Islands off both land masses. Sao Tome Prince', Cape Verde Canary Islands etc and...and now Western Iberia. Remember Eva Fernandez found more than 50% SSA lineage in ancient Iberia. Which no one speaks about.
Quote:" The complete sequencing of African mtDNA lineages found in the Andalusian gene pool [19] have interestingly revealed the occurrence of ancient trans-continental contact between northwestern Africa and Iberia,"
QUOTE: " the two territories exhibits significant genetic differentiation [18]. The population structuring seems to be primarily caused by the differential weight of African lineages U6, M1 and L, which are far more represented in the western than in eastern Andalusia. The complete sequencing of African mtDNA lineages found in the Andalusian gene pool [19] have interestingly revealed the occurrence of ancient trans-continental contact between northwestern Africa and Iberia, with Andalusia being the Atlantic side of the Peninsula where most African maternal traces are concentrated when compared to the rest of Europe."
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Europeans are more similar maternally to North Africans than all other Africans are to North Africans
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
North Africans are a subset of Southern Africans and Europeans are a subset of North Africans. Don't you get that? There is a reason R1b-M269 is found in pre-colonial Island West Africans. There is a reason why Cape Verde Islanders show remnants of La Brana. This is not rocket science.
What is "more similar"? Based Upon STR Berbers are "Negros". Based Upon yDNA most North Africans/Berbers are ....African as much as modern SSA. So again, define "more similar"? Are you saying the Europeans women were concubines of Africans? You know I don't believe that BS like some of you. That is a contrive story to explain the high frequency of mtDNA H in Africa. It is BS. There were no European female slaves in North Africa. The presence of mtDNA H in Africa proceeds the presence of mtDNA in Europe. If you read this study, haplotypes of mtDNA H in Italy are DIFFERENT from mtDNA H in Iberia. Meaning? Similarly you will find mtDNA H in Tunisia will be similar to mtDNA H in Italy. It is a continuum. European women are a subset of African women. When they get the guts and fortitude to do a deep dive on R1b-M269 between Europe and Africa they will make the same observation for the men. Sergi was correct. . This is not rocket science. There never was and never will be any migration from the Steppes of Asia as the racialist believes.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: North Africans are a subset of Southern Africans and Europeans are a subset of North Africans. Don't you get that? There is a reason R1b-M269 is found in pre-colonial Island West Africans. There is a reason why Cape Verde Islanders show remnants of La Brana. This is not rocket science.
What is "more similar"? Based Upon STR Berbers are "Negros". Based Upon yDNA most North Africans/Berbers are ....African as much as modern SSA. So again, define "more similar"? Are you saying the Europeans women were concubines of Africans? You know I don't believe that BS like some of you. That is a contrive story to explain the high frequency of mtDNA H in Africa. It is BS. There were no European female slaves in North Africa. The presence of mtDNA H in Africa proceeds the presence of mtDNA in Europe. If you read this study, haplotypes of mtDNA H in Italy are DIFFERENT from mtDNA H in Iberia. Meaning? Similarly you will find mtDNA H in Tunisia will be similar to mtDNA H in Italy. It is a continuum. European women are a subset of African women. When they get the guts and fortitude to do a deep dive on R1b-M269 between Europe and Africa they will make the same observation for the men. Sergi was correct. . This is not rocket science. There never was and never will be any migration from the Steppes of Asia as the racialist believes.
Again for whatever reason, Europeans are more similar to North Africans maternally than other Africans are to North Africans
Africans who are not H carriers are more different maternally from Africans who are H carriers and Europeans
So the word "African" becomes of less importance in this context.
The genetics override the geographic terms. Maternally we have the H carriers and we have the L/A/B carriers
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
The reason is....European women lineage is a subset of African female lineage. "Pillars of Hercules" study. Africans carry the basal clade of mtDNA H and Africans carry haplotypes of H NOT found in European women but Africans carry ALL haplotypes found in European women. In other words European women are a subset of African women. There is not ambiguity about that FACT. They can spin frequency till the cows come hope. That will never change, Europeans are depigmented Africans. No doubt about that. Just as the AEians are indigenous Africans based upon the even the recent released paper. That is what the data shows even when they try to spin the frequency of haplogroups BS and selectively chose ONLY three haplogroups to disclose. The North African men are PN2 inclusive of siblings E1b1a and E1b1b . You can't get more African than that? Furthermore mtDNA H and E1b1b are around the same age and much older than E1b1a
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Quote: "for whatever reason" SMH
The reason is....European women lineage is a subset of African female lineage. "Pillars of Hercules" study. Africans carry the basal clade of mtDNA H and Africans carry haplotypes of H NOT found in European women but Africans carry ALL haplotypes found in European women. In other words European women are a subset of African women. There is not ambiguity about that FACT. They can spin frequency till the cows come hope.
People migrate so you can find tiny fractions of DNA all over the place But by and large West Africans, South Africans and East Africans do not carry haplogroup H.
Haplogroup H in Africa is berber
So it makes more sense as per your theory, that the berbers are the forefathers of Europeans.
So when you say "Europeans are depigmented Africans" it has shock value but we all know that 95% of Africans are excluded.
Why not keep it real and say "Berbers are the forefathers of Europeans." if not "North Africans are the forefathers of Europeans."
Obviously if you say "Africans" generally the first thing that comes to mind is the average African who does not look like these berber H carriers
African Population density 2000
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
you want shock value!? try, "AEians are less sub-saharan." Two can play that game.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Eastern and Saharan Africans shared the most alleles absent from other African populations examined (fig. S6D).
--Tishkoff et al. "Genetic structure of Africans and African Americans"
quote:"however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood"
--Brenna Henn et al.
Published: January 12, 2012DOI: 10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397:
"Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations"
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ funnily he thinks xyyman is going to agree with this chart
quote: we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously
-- Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians 2015
Luca Pagani
(primarily J1 19.7% and J2, 12.2% see Luis et al 2004)
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ funnily he thinks xyyman is going to agree with this chart
quote: we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously
-- Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians 2015
Luca Pagani
(primarily J1 19.7% and J2, 12.2% see Luis et al 2004)
I don't expect him to. I think that number is flawed too. The point is what happens after
quote:admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago
is removed and where that narrative takes you.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged |
I wasn't really around when this study was a big thing, but there's a particular point I feel most people who posted this took for granted... or overlooked.
..Look at the Ethiopian populations before and after "Masking" (Wolayta, Gumuz, Somali, Amhara) and compare what happened to them with what happened to the Egyptians.
Notice that populations with the most "Eurasian" ancestry are closer to YRI after masking than the more "SSA" ones, for instance, Eyptians and Amhara, roughly 80% & 60% Eurasian respectively. Why are the more SSA populations without Eurasian Admixture more distant from the YRI, & not only that, why are they so distant from each other after masking?
that supervised chart actually blotched indigenous East African diversity, & components hidden due to reentry by nearby Eurasians.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Nearby Eurasians or nearby Afrasians?
Is there another Factor at play other than reentry?
OOA genomes were only an Arabian Plate/Levant bound bottleneck subset.
It wasn't a complete desertion of those particular genetic materials from the main continent.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ funnily he thinks xyyman is going to agree with this chart
quote: we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously
-- Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians 2015
Luca Pagani
(primarily J1 19.7% and J2, 12.2% see Luis et al 2004)
LOL Pathetic.
quote:To resume, our results clearly reject the scenario put forward so far of a strict correlation between the Arab expansion in historical times and the overall pattern of distribution of J1-related chromosomes. Similarly, the causal association between STR-defined haplotypes and ethnic groups appear without any robust support, making its use inadequate for forensic or genealogical purposes. Instead, J1 variation provided the genetic background to correlate climatic changes to human demographic and socio-cultural events scarcely documented in the archaeological record – the dispersal of hunter gatherers after the termination of glacial conditions in the late Pleistocene and the desertification-driven retreat of tribes of Saharan and Arabian foragers in the transition to a food-producing economy.
—Sergio Tofanelli et al.
J1-M267 Y lineage marks climate-driven pre-historical human displacements
European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 1520 – 1524
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I wasn't really around when this study was a big thing, but there's a particular point I feel most people who posted this took for granted... or overlooked.
..Look at the Ethiopian populations before and after "Masking" (Wolayta, Gumuz, Somali, Amhara) and compare what happened to them with what happened to the Egyptians.
Notice that populations with the most "Eurasian" ancestry are closer to YRI after masking than the more "SSA" ones, for instance, Eyptians and Amhara, roughly 80% & 60% Eurasian respectively. Why are the more SSA populations without Eurasian Admixture more distant from the YRI, & not only that, why are they so distant from each other after masking?
that supervised chart actually blotched indigenous East African diversity, & components hidden due to reentry by nearby Eurasians.
Good point Isnt that systematic though? I'm still trying to figure out how these numbers are determined. It looks like percentage of haplogroups with Ls as African.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged |
posted
--Originally posted by Tukuler: --"Nearby Eurasians or nearby Afrasians?"
Eurasians or Afrasans already mixed with Eurasians.
--"Is there another Factor at play other than reentry? --OOA genomes were only an Arabian Plate/Levant bound bottleneck subset. --It wasn't a complete desertion of those particular genetic materials from the main continent. "
That's partially what I was getting at, like, imagine whatever remnants of East African Ancestry remaining in modern Eurasians being masked out to show how "Sub-Saharan African" the east African population are as of now?
Also prehistoric components shared by Europeans and east Africans but also shared with other Africans like YRI, are going to be dropped, Like if we revisit schlebusch 2017
Most contemporary East African populations could have had ancestors that diverged @ 'East africa2' ..that clade is also a precursor to Europeans, possibly 2 fold, If you mask out CEU, who are a combination of HGS like LBK, AnatoliaNs, Eneolithics..etc, your probably gonna include some indigenous African components too for example.
@Fourty2Tribes
Not really systematic, just linear reasoning at best. how aware they were when organizing the study back then about the full spectrum of indigenous East African diversity have to be considered. In layman's terms, they took their CEU sample, and negated most components shared with the Africans in their dataset. basically Aficans - CUE = SSA w/o non African Admixture.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
What I mean by systematic is that this is in every genetic study and most calculations with east Africans and Africans in general.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Please leave my wordage intact. Preferably within a quote box. Thanks.
Lemme define my use of Afrasian.
It ain't Afrasan (Afrisian) -- linguistic. Weren't no such phylum 120,000-55,000 years ago when OoA was going down.
Eur Asian = a super continent.
Afr Asian = that part of 'Asia' which came from Africa (Levant + Arabian Plate).
Way I see it weren't no one way street out of Africa. It's a two way street in my book.
From the first successful Hss going back and forth, to historically modern Afrasians who're infused with molecular genetics that never left Africa because it never existed in Africa.
Mutations and combinations that sprang up in Europe, west central east and south Asia, and the Pacific, along with ingressions from Archaics there, are the only non-African (thoroughly Eurasian) shit that shoulda got masked.
CEU and CHB needed get their own African masked off first. Otherwise they can't be used to mask bona fide Eurasian components in any peoples.
It's not a matter of if we're saying the same thing or not. This is what I am saying. If I had Davidski's resources I'd make a more accurate Fst than the one referenced. And I damn sure know that you Beyoku and Swenet could too!
Admixture happened in Afrasia and it wasn't no backflow. The peoples from northwest north and east of Afrasia who migrated there were not from Africa so couldn't go back to Africa.
Only the Afrasians could back migrate. Both before and after they took exotic true Eurasian bedmates.
Me? Right now I'm tired of ENF related shit and qpGraphs with their non-agreeing yet valid multiple models all in the same report. Sure, I'll have to come around to them again in the future, with their limit of only two solid line descent splits per clade.
posted
"shoulda, shoulda, shoulda" ...it aint my study, I ain't responsible for this outcome.
for the point I was trying to make, it doesn't matter if you want to focus on ENF, EEF, LNF or BFFs, point of the matter is Europeans (CEU) have African admixture whether ancestral, divergent or recent. And East Africans have recent Eurasian Admixture from where ever d'fuq.
The pattern I pointed out for the Fst distances can be explained easiest by going to the root, "basal" populations or whatever. more recent African geneflow outside the continent might play a part, but I'll grab the low hanging fruit, for which I don't have to simultaneously explain which recent African migration OOA brings both west Africans and Europeans closer to East Africans... AND brings Ethiopians closer to each other.
yo, if you have any insight on which populations/movements might yield something similar, please share, I'm not the best historian on here.
The Numbers by the solid lines are drift lengths
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
O I C. all that matters is what you want to focus on.
Your point is your point My point is my point
They don't have to agree or even dovetail in the least. Norma's the one build off the other.
We aren't even talking about the same thing.
Of course you're going to prefer you explanation and think it's simplest but it isn't afaic. But I don't shoot it down.
I reject that Fst altogether. I stated why and I couldn't give a shit about all this 'Lazian' statistical yet nonexistent populations.
Simplest? There was no traps sieves or barriers stopping people going back and forth across the Red Sea or the Sinai whenever they wanted to .
All that linear movement event nonsense of Eurasian OOA and Eurasian back migration is myopic afaic. I'm not going to sit up here snd act like what I think about it is the only way it could have been. Nor am I going to poo poo Fresh ideas because they are alterned to mine. One Is as good as the other as long as there's evidence in support of the logic.
I couldn't give a shit about basal this basal that or basal the other thing. Nor the Laz alphabet soup everybody's drunk on. What the fuck happened to stones bones industries economies diets diseases regional dynamics and what not?
And thanks for teaching me what those numbers mean .I couldn't access the manual
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic