as a lot of women here, I met an egyptian guy. We want to spend our holidays together in hurghada and he told me, that he want to marry me "orfi" before, so that we don't get in trouble because we live together for 4 weeks in one flat. Along the rules of the German Embassy, this will be no problem, because "orfi" will not be ruled as a formal marriage in Germany. So do you have any experiences with that? Does it make living together more easily? Are there any risks I do have to consider? Please answer.
posted
You just have to decide if sleeping with him is all this important. If you've been reading this site for some time, you know by now that sleeping with him is all it will be. He, probably, isn't going to marry you and make you his life long wife, if that is what you are hoping for in the end.
Simply, if you orfi marry him, it makes everything easy for him and if anyone risks anything, it is you. If you don't orfi marry him and can still convince him to come over for your sleepovers then he is the one at risk. Now he may stand to loose more than you stand to loose in this deal, but you should think long and hard about how important the sex with him is before making any commitments to this. At least make him pay for the flat.
[This message has been edited by Debbie (edited 17 February 2004).]
posted
Orfi has it's advantages and as long as you know what you are and are not getting involved with then I see no problem.
BUT if you see a future with this guy then don't do orfi to sleep with him. You know the old joke about will he respect you in the morning well in Egypt no he won't at all. It just doesn't work like that over here. Casual sex is for prostitues and slags. Nice girls don't.
If you are using Orfi to legalise casual sex then you will never have a future with this man. If you are happy with that then go ahead.
I am Orfi married but not for that reason but because neither of us can be bothered about the hassle of going to Cairo AND I am not having children and I also don't want him gaining automatic rights over my UK property.
But much more important to me is that my marriage is recognised by the community and family and registered at the court so it is also recognised by the Egyptian government. As far as I and everyone else in Luxor is concerned I am a married women.
------------------ UK Co-owner of www.toursinluxor.co.uk Accommodation and Tours in Luxor
I think you misunderstood: I will stay 4 weeks in Egypt to meet his entire family and to have the possibility to learn about him. We already talked about getting married one day and having a family of our own. We just do not know where, if in Egypt or in Germany. What should I do instead? Marry without knowing the man I met for a couple of days? And how can you otherwise learn and know more about him? As far as I am concerned about all that I read, it's just as you said: in the eyes of people we are married.
it's hard what you are writing but true in the end. But what will you do instead? How can you getting to know a man from who you are thinking that he maybe is the right one? He wants to present me to his family and we will live together with his family in one house. How can we manage this without telling that we are married? I mean you always have to make the decision if you trust someone or if you dont. I am already 36 and I had my experiences with a turkish guy in Turkey which is not really that different regarding the culture and the mentality. I lived there for 2 years in a small village within very traditional people and they accepted that we were not married. And as far as I know the islamic traditions, it is a big step for an egyptian guy to represent a European Woman who was already married and divorced before as his wife, right?
quote:Originally posted by Debbie: You just have to decide if sleeping with him is all this important. If you've been reading this site for some time, you know by now that sleeping with him is all it will be. He, probably, isn't going to marry you and make you his life long wife, if that is what you are hoping for in the end.
Simply, if you orfi marry him, it makes everything easy for him and if anyone risks anything, it is you. If you don't orfi marry him and can still convince him to come over for your sleepovers then he is the one at risk. Now he may stand to loose more than you stand to loose in this deal, but you should think long and hard about how important the sex with him is before making any commitments to this. At least make him pay for the flat.
[This message has been edited by Debbie (edited 17 February 2004).]
posted
hi jutta and hi evrybody, in my eyes, orfi marriage is not that awful than more a possibility- as jutta said- to make it as a test 4 "real life". especially when western girl and oriental man think about spending a life time together.( here orfi has a different meaning than between egyptian)
we went through same expiriences as akshar: married orfi (4 personal reasons) and registered at court. that was 12 years ago and untill now we have two kids and a working marriage.
sometimes circumstandes force us to run a kind of risk. but definitivly, 4 some persons it takes a bad end- for others it has been the best solution. i think, jutta has to make sure about his intentions first and then she can propably decide, if orfi marrying him means loosing him at the same time. 4 her, i dont see any other risk due to orfi marry.
anyhow, i hope, i didnt say something wrong leading u to desasters!! thatīs just what i think.
posted
Consider what you want first but be careful this type of arrangement will stop and hasstle with police, and allow you to stay together in a hotel. just take care and ask yourself what you want from this ,Can be a learning expreience but if you want to be together, and no hassle then sensible
Posts: 18 | From: ENGLAND | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by akshar: and I also don't want him gaining automatic rights over my UK property.
Just to clarify, it doesn't work like that in Egypt. What is in your name stays in your name. Before and during the marriage. When you divorce, there's no automatic splitting of property. Parties walk away with whatever is in their name.
It get complicated if you were to have a marriage in the UK, because then you are subject to UK laws and he may be automatically entitled to your property.
quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: It get complicated if you were to have a marriage in the UK, because then you are subject to UK laws and he may be automatically entitled to your property.
Or if your marriage is recognised in the UK which an Egyptian Ministry of Justice marriage is. The divorce law in Britian then applies and he would be entitled to claim against you.
Also in the event of your death the UK rules on property would apply to a marriage recognised in the UK.
Suddenly Orfi isn't so bad is girls
------------------ UK Co-owner of www.toursinluxor.co.uk Accommodation and Tours in Luxor
[This message has been edited by akshar (edited 18 February 2004).]
posted
jutta: please read the post "Orfi Marriage" by charlotte in Visiting Egypt. It appears there are 2 kinds of "orfi" marriages. If the orfi paper is stamped by the Egyptian Government, it is recognized by them as a marriage - and would require a divorce (only in Egypt) to be disolved. Other countries would still not recognize this "orfi" as a marriage; therefore a divorce would not be required. This "Government Stamped Orfi" is not the typical "orfi" marriage that is being flaunted to the majority of tourists, on-line relationships, or young guys and women twice their age. Sleeping with the boyfriend before marriage (whether orfi married or not) is just not acceptable to Egyptian traditions, the Islamic religion, the community or his family for the most part. And he (the boyfriend) knows this. So what does that tell you? Most moral, sincere Egyptian men would not consider putting you in this position. So then, how would you get to know each other? The same way that Egyptian men get to know and marry Egyptian girls! Let him explain it to you.If he is willing to go along with this -then you can be assured that he is at least sincere in his desire to spend a life time with you. Do not accept anything less than an Egyptian girl would demand.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Hi Jutta: If he wants to marry you "orfi" so why doesnt he marry you normally better if he is ready to do this one day. as others said you will be the looser at the end not him. Also orfi marraige is not accepted in egypt and you will not have any rights at the end.
quote:Originally posted by Jutta: Hello everyone,
as a lot of women here, I met an egyptian guy. We want to spend our holidays together in hurghada and he told me, that he want to marry me "orfi" before, so that we don't get in trouble because we live together for 4 weeks in one flat. Along the rules of the German Embassy, this will be no problem, because "orfi" will not be ruled as a formal marriage in Germany. So do you have any experiences with that? Does it make living together more easily? Are there any risks I do have to consider? Please answer.
posted
Girls I am so thankful for what you wrote. I also had my experiences with another Moslem man some years ago so that not everything is new to me. But this "orfi"-thing really causes total confusion in my head. But as you said: his family is everything. And when I put my puzzle-pieces together, it seems that he wants to treat me very respectful. We are both already 36 and he knows that I have been married before and then divorced. He already asked me to marry (a "full" marriage") and to spend life together and having a family of our own. But this was far too fast for me. So I was the one who wanted to have something like a "trying-period". I think that is the reason why he chosed "Orfi". When I will now travel to him, we will spend a few days in Luxor with his family and will sleep in his house where also his sister and his father are living. And for me this is a special hint for trusting him. I think if he wants me just for sex or for money, he would not do this. Am I right so far? Another few days we will spend with the family of his brother in Assuan, in their house. So I will we presented to another important part of his family. As long as I understand you right, this seemed to be speaking for his sincere and honest motivation to be together with me longer than just for a holiday. Girls, I hope you will not misunderstood: I will be in Hurghada, Luxor and Assuan between the time from 11 March to 4 April. Does anyone of you wants to meet me? Just to have a talk? I would really enjoy that. Thanks a lot to you all.
Posts: 53 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Dear SasyCat, as I posted above, the situation is a little bit different. I was already married and I lived together with a moslem in Turkey for nearly 2 years. So I know the islamic habits very much. But it was me who said "No" when he was talking about marriage the first time. I am no Egyptian and for me it is absolutely unacceptable to marry without knowing each other very well. And, sorry to say, but in my opinion I have to know if sex will also be more than "acceptable" before I marry. Due to my own experiences. It was not very nice to be raped by your own husband when you just say "no, please not today". And you know from Islamic right that the wife have to give him what he "needs". It's her duty. "Anything less than an Egyptian girl would demand?" I think I demand a lot more from him. I demand to accept my opinion that I do not want to rush in a marriage like the girls do in the romantic egyptian films. Love at first sight and then longing for him for the rest of your life. 50% of a marriage are love and 50% are just needs of him and her which should be satisfied. From both sides. If I have to accept his islamic moral, he should accept mine too. And for me, personally it means much more to risk such a kind of relationship again with all whats maybe coming afterwards. He will not loose much. But if we European woman leave our countries it will be the hell to come back after a few years. And if the kind of getting married the "Egyptian style" is so moral and so good and whatever, than why is the number of divorces like "khul" increasing every year? Because Egyptian girls get what they want although they were such moral and good behaving before their marriage? Obviously not. You can never look inside a mens head: maybe he wants a visa. Yes that maybe. So what? But on the other hand: I dont want to move to a moslemic country. Never again. I had this in Turkey and it was a horror trip. Why should I leave my good and good paid job behind me? Why should I leave all that freedom I have here in Europe as an European woman behind me, again? As I said: I already did that once in my life. And the restart, back in Germany after this, was like hell. I didn't get a job anymore for months, I couldn't afford even a cinema ticket. I couldn't even afford a flat for the first few months. And everyone looked at me like the "poor, naive, good girl" who was tolerant enought to love a guy from a different culture. So what is so bad about it, that he comes to live with me in Germany? If he is willing to do that for our relationship, I know the best, that this is a very important step for him to leave his family and his friends and his good job and his country.
quote:Originally posted by Sasy Cat: Sleeping with the boyfriend before marriage (whether orfi married or not) is just not acceptable to Egyptian traditions, the Islamic religion, the community or his family for the most part. And he (the boyfriend) knows this. So what does that tell you? Most moral, sincere Egyptian men would not consider putting you in this position. So then, how would you get to know each other? The same way that Egyptian men get to know and marry Egyptian girls! Let him explain it to you.If he is willing to go along with this -then you can be assured that he is at least sincere in his desire to spend a life time with you. Do not accept anything less than an Egyptian girl would demand.
[This message has been edited by Jutta (edited 18 February 2004).]
posted
[Just marry orfi , it will make it easier for both of you and especially if you both are seriouse about each other. No harm in getting orfi married
Posts: 523 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
i'm married orfi to a man from hurghada - we married last summer when i returned to egypt to get to know him better (i met him when i visited egypt earlier last year)- i too wanted to spend time with him as a couple in the european sense and wanted to share the same hotel room and the same apartment - when back in hurghada, we stayed with his family - the orfi marriage arrangement worked perfectly: it allowed us to spend time together on holiday as an official couple and get to know each other more intimately - i agree with you, the sexual side of the relationship is important and you need to be sure that he respects you enough to accept a NO as a NO and also to know that you are sexually compatible and enjoy the same things before fully committing to a marriage that binds you for life - without the orfi arrangement, i would not have had the opportunity to spend so much intimate time with my orfi husband to allow me to decide that i did not want to marry him (no problem on the sexual level but there were other reasons) - to this day he still wants to marry me so it just goes to show that his love and commitment for me was/is real and not just an easy route to a visa - as europeans we have the freedom to have intimate relationships with partners, live together, even have children before we make the full commitment to a marriage and the question on whether our partner 'will still love us tomorrow' does not really come into it - egyptian culture does not allow this flexibility and in this sense i see there is a place for orfi marriages - since my orfi marriage, i have had a lot of help and advice from this forum for which i am very grateful - i have also had some judgment (being called a slag for marrying orfi)for which i was not so grateful - after all was said and done, i don't regret my orfi marriage and, given the reasons you say you have, i would definitely recommend you marry orfi first, spend time with him properly and with his family before you make your decision - just make sure your orfi marriage papers are not stamped by the egyptian government but the procedure only takes place with a lawyer and two witnesses - to rent apartments/hotel rooms and travel together without being hassled by the police your papers do not need to be stamped by the governement office and if you then decide to marry him fully you will get your official stamp anyway - straightforward orfi papers do not bind you to anything much if you decide not to marry him - regardless of what some people may say about this orfi practice and how cheap it makes western women look, what really counts is not the legality of the papers but the love and respect he has for you. i wish you well. peace xx
Posts: 30 | From: england | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
With all due respect to all of you, and the ORFI marriage, I have this feeling that you seriously do NOT understand the mentality of the Egyptian Muslim man.
Based on my knowledge, when a Muslim man marries ORFI, it's either because he has a wife already, a matter of inheritance, or because the woman he is marrying ORFI makes no difference between it, and between a casual relationship.
But in any case, it seems to be so 'popular'with non - Egyptians/ non - Muslim women vs Egyptian Muslim men, so I wish you all the best 'marriage', wether Orfi or Civil or Religious/Civil combined.
A small note:
The Egyptian Muslim Men/women that I know, through, family, friends, relatives etc...do not RESPECT the ORFI/secret marriage idea that is not PUBLICIZED to all. In certain Egyptian social circles it is in fact shameful! In some , the Orfi wife is totally banned!
Just for your information. And of course, it depends on social class.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 21 February 2004).]
posted
what i wonder about is if the families who invite you to stay at their homes know you're married orfi to their son.... can you communicate with them independently or is the boyfriend translating?
i cannot wrap my head around that one...an egyptian family welcoming to their home a western woman who is married orfi to their son so they can have sexual relations
posted
of course u r right, monica: orfi marriage has a bad taste 4 egyptian couples, but in same time it has a completly different meaning to binational couples. ok, sometimes we have that very poor examples of men marrying orfi with foreign ladies only for their own (maybe temporal)advantage. but here i wanna confirm again, that in many cases the orfi marriage between non egyptian women vs egyptian men meant to be the beginning of a working marriage where u can find respect and (still) satisfying sex and common children etc. etc.
it is not a big deal as well for the egyptian family to admit such a relation ship in their home. becoz orfi IS a marriage.(in fact, egyptians do understand very well sexual needs- as long as their girls dont marry orfi....and they know very well, that western girls have different points of thinking and behaving )
as i said be4, in the beginning we married orfi, too. my mom in law, my sister in law and my brother in law were our witnesses, the other brother was the executing writer. without that little paper we couldnt have been able to spend the night in his mothers house, well-knowing that our relation ship started long time ago in germany. that was 12 years ago, but from the very first day they never let me feel as a stranger or a slap or anything like this in the middle of them.
why not marrying legaly straight away when the partners are willing to stay togehter for their life time? well, many people have many circumstandes...thats it.
if u know what u want and what he wants - so why not?
posted
I'm sorry but where did you get the idea that you can't spend the night at his mother's house without being married? It's a scandal to have an orfi wife stay at your house but it's not such a scandal for a westerner, who is a "friend of the entire family" stay at the house. You may need it to stay in a flat with a man if it's just the two of you, but when you are staying at his family's house, with women under one roof, there's no need for such things.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
sorry, ExptinCAI, but as i know there are reasons in this case for getting married anyhow, even if there are other women under the roof- and espacially becoz there were other women-, becoz we didnt just want to spend the night at mothers home, no, we liked to share the same room like any husband and wife does. i knew later, that the orfi marriage is nothing to be proud of, but itīs more a scandal to share one bed without marriage, than to do it by orfi- as the orfi IS a marriage, even if not accepted by society or laws. but maybe u have other expiriences, might be u live in a different company, in another class.... but this is what iīve seen.
Posts: 45 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Wow, I didn't except my postage would be discussed so conflicting. So it seems, that obviously there are as many different sights of "orfi" as people who do it? To give you more explanation: for us, it will be the only possibility to live in one appartment. Just the two of us with no other family member. His brother will be one of our witnesses so his family will know about it. My boyfriend would marry me straight away legally with all consequenses, but I dont! It is not my mentality to rush into a love affair with any consequences without having even had the chance to talk about some things. I mean okay, for many egyptians this is just normal, but I think for us western girls it is not. So why should I do it? His whole family knows that we will marry "orfi" and as long as I understand him correct, my boyfriend told me, that it was the idea of his own father to do it, because I told him straight from the beginning, that I do not want to marry after knowing someone just a couple of days before. And my boyfriend does not come from the "western oriented upper class". His family is just "fellaches" (I hope its the right word in english). And nevertheless what others are saying: I have still to be true to myself. And if my heard needs a little bit more of "trying-period" and of time to get more close to him, than I will take every chance I have to do that.
Posts: 53 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I married orfi 2 years ago for the same reasons of what you are thinking of. I have not regretted it, it made life easier. It was also very important morally for my boyfriend.He took the orfi marriage very seriously. If you get the orfi papers it will be much easier for you to be together.
Posts: 523 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by akshar: Orfi has it's advantages and as long as you know what you are and are not getting involved with then I see no problem.
BUT if you see a future with this guy then don't do orfi to sleep with him. You know the old joke about will he respect you in the morning well in Egypt no he won't at all. It just doesn't work like that over here. Casual sex is for prostitues and slags. Nice girls don't.
If you are using Orfi to legalise casual sex then you will never have a future with this man. If you are happy with that then go ahead.
I am Orfi married but not for that reason but because neither of us can be bothered about the hassle of going to Cairo AND I am not having children and I also don't want him gaining automatic rights over my UK property.
But much more important to me is that my marriage is recognised by the community and family and registered at the court so it is also recognised by the Egyptian government. As far as I and everyone else in Luxor is concerned I am a married women.
But he was smart and got the marriage legalised so now he has rights over your Luxor property...ha ha...you want everyone to think he did it just to prove he really love you and make you a citizen...
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