You know, there are 3 main types of girls out there. Some are virgins some are not virgins and some are sluts. That's all good.
I think virgins are way too over rated. It doesn't matter to me at all. But the ones that tick me off are those not virgins who act like virgins, I mean, why can't they be just themselves and stop pretending to be something that they are not.
True, respectable girls are not the kind of girls who go out and pretend they are someone else.
Your question is how they do so?? I think they have two options:
1- Become a virgin again (operation) 2- If they are planning to fake it, they may use tomatos....lol
posted
You are so funny Adoula, with the tomato issue
As per, 'Become a virgin again', it is surely an unethical operation indeed, and a MEDICINE PRACTITIONER, could lose his medical licence in this case. So, if an 'enemy' of the bride knows about it, watch out!
Adoula, something else you said puzzled me here: did you mean, that's all good, in terms of, you are not judging them?
quote:Originally posted by Adoula:
1- Become a virgin again (operation) 2- If they are planning to fake it, they may use tomatos....lol
'Some are virgins some are not virgins and some are sluts. That's all good.'
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 11 February 2004).]
posted
HMMM...I presume you both mean that 'true respectable girls....' would not be 'sluts'. In terms that, if a girl loses her virginity, it does NOT make her automatically a 'slut'. But can a 'slut' that pretends to be a 'goody two shoes' in order to catch a husband, and a non-virgin that pretends to be one -in order to catch a husband too - be compared, in your opinion?
Definition of 'slut': a promiscuous woman - having fequent casual careless sexual relationships/multiple sexual partners Definition of 'virgin': person who has never had sexual intercourse - wether the Hymen is intact or not, if we are talking about the feminine gender. Definition of 'lost virginity': could combine both meanings, promiscuous or/and just having had sexual intercourse with only one person.
'Virginity' is indeed still an issue in Egypt. Aside from a religious point of view, the reason being: who knows if the 'girl' only had ONE sexual partner or more? Which in turn would make the 'girl' a 'slut' etc...etc...in the Egyptian culture, and according to the Oxford dictionary.
When Adoula says he doesn't mind [getting married to] a virgin or not, in my opinion, he is demonstrating the very progressive Egyptian mind, in a non traditional way, that is, but I have a feeling he also means that he would marry a non virgin, if and only if he trusts her.And to trust her he expects her to be honest with him, and not pretend to be a virgin if she is not/or someone she is not. Am I right?
Just wanted this to be a clear picture, since based on many posts about masks, women and love, and fidelity and evil, Adoula - an Egyptian progressve man, I think - doesn't seem to be the type that would marry a promiscuous/multiple sexual partners kind of woman, somehow! Am I right?
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 11 February 2004).]
For some Egyptians you are just declared a sl** because you are a foreign girl. Which lonely girl would come all by herself to another country? The assume she is only there for Sex.
As an Egyptian girl you should respect your religion and stay a virgin up until you get married. (If I would have been an Egyptian girl I would have gotten married very early!!!!)
For some Egyptians you are already declared a sl** when you are just talking to another guy.
This was always one of the main misunderstandings w/ my ex. He didn't trust me at all. When we broke it off after almost two years he told me that anyway he just wanted to marry a virgin (what a joke?!) It is all in the culture but it took a long time to understand that.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
hi folks i totally agree with monica, but i want to add something here, if we took relegion aside, being a virgin here , are u a virgin? this question can never be asked to a girl , in egypt, do u know why ? because this question means there is a suspect even if it was just a thought in my mind, but the girl will took it as a very bad insult to her, because she is well brought up and it is the base of her perfect ethics. and i am sorry but 99% of egyptians are thinking this way and no father or brother will accept to know that his sister is not a virgin ,it is considered as a part of our honor, and it is a total disgrace to the girl and her family to be known if she is not, guys we still the same, may be we can see differences now, but it is only in our society, and egypt is 70 millions, and we are minority. i have been in love before , and i know how a girl can loose her virginity because of love( i didn't witnessed that ) but i know how it could happen, but i will not forgive myself to be a part of that , because an egyptian value, i consider myself the protector of my girl so how can i attract her to such a disgrace to her later.
As U know, the community see that losing virginity is a big deal for a lot of reasons.
First, most relegions does not allow to have sex outside of marriage.
Second, sex is a risk, no matter how careful the girl was (pregnancy, diseases....etc.)
It's also a matter of morals and personality.
Girls virginity is something special. When they have sex for the first time, it is gone forever (U remeber Yousef Wahby quote).
In the Arab world, any sexual indiscretion committed by a female (if discovered) causes dishonour to her father's family, and more specifically to her father himself and to her brothers. This applies as much when the girl has left the family home and is married as it does when she is single.
Needless to say, this is a broad generalization of Arab male attitudes, and does not apply to all - especially educated and widely travelled - Middle Eastern men.
Monica, as U said, am very open mind in this area, and consider it as a very personal decesion for the girl. If she decide to loose it now, or if she made her decision that she only want to loose her virginity when she is married, that is her choice!
For me, there are two things that are vital for a relationship to work:
Respect, and open, honest, bi-directional communication.
So yes Monica, I have no problem with any girl if she will be honest with me.
Virginity may be lost in an instant, by choice or by force, through calculation or through bad judgment. It is, in my opinion, incredibly naive to think that a non-virgin is any less worthy of love than a virgin.
Sometimes I also wonder if we make too big of a deal about sex. I think...
------------------ Regards adoula777@yahoo.com
[This message has been edited by Adoula (edited 11 February 2004).]
While we are having this discussion to 'virgin or not to virgin', I have a feeling 'Butterfly' could be still waiting for an answer.
Butterfly: wether there are tricks or not, if the Egyptian husband discovers the FRAUD, and that is a possibility, it will be divorce time, in a very nasty way. Showing that the wife was a virgin, the way you described it, is mostly performed in 'villages' as far as I know.
And please understand , that the category of Egyptian women that fool their husbands are not better than the category of Egyptian men that fool their wives, in a way or another. Which brings us ONCE MORE, to the fact that there are some good Egyptian women/girls and some bad ones - within a population of 70 millions. Exactly like the good and bad of any country, why is it so difficult to understand that if you MINGLE with the wrong crowd that's exactly what you'll get involved with, the WRONG Crowd!
As per, do we make too big of a deal in regards of 'sex' in Egypt and the Middle East in general, it depends on the upbringing -at home- and also as you said Adoula, on morals and personality!
And in Egypt, they say: virginity is like a 'match' once you light your match, it's burnt and can't ever be recovered again! (As Adoula mentionned, Youssef Wahby, an actor, used to say that in his movies - his black and white Egyptian movies are still shown on TV, in Egypt and the Arab world, as well as in the West, through satellite - )
Bye bye friends.....
Monica
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 11 February 2004).]
posted
The point is not, what can be proofed or not or technically covered up, everybody is responsible for him/herself and is accountable for his deeds - not in front of the people, but in front of God!
What is forbidden for us in Islam, is not to deprive us of somethig good, useful, fun thing, it is to protect us from the bad, evil and damaging sides of those things!
This goes for all the forbidden (haram) things. Now why it the virginity matter always pointed out for the girls, while it is also as much the requirement for any young man? I think because it is mostly the girls who are the losers, it is the girls who face the 'risk' of a pregnancy and have to 'take care' with contraceptives, they may catch sexual deseases, they have no sort of rights against the man the like the married woman enjoys, the man can dissolve such relationship at any time, he is the one enjoying a sexual relationship with the girl without any form of responsibility or commitment, and she is the one losing her reputation.
Now, for a girl, what speaks more for her in terms of respect and honor?
1) that she gives herself to the man she loves without any commitment from his side and faces all the possible risks and dangers that come with it or
2) that the man who loves her would come to her home, meet her family, asks to marry her, and has to wait if the girl agrees to accept him or not?
Question for us females who lost their virginity outside marriage: was it worth it? did we really 'enjoy' those relationships as much as our male partners?
I will leave this question to you to ponder about, and I don't want to forget to repeat that every soul shall have its own judgement, and may Allah have mercy on all those men and women who are purchasing a little pleasure in this world for the costs of Paradise, Amin.
It's definitely a known fact that religiously speaking, it is a 'no no' to have sexual relations before marriage.
But I have to admit to you that I personally was brought up on principles and high standards, on high morals and self respect, and never never was I threatened by Hell vs Paradise. The way my parents brought us up - and many many many families in Egypt adopted that concept by the way, wether from Heliopolis, Smouha in Alexandria or Maadi, - was by educating us and empower us as young women and young men to be able to stand for our own rights, to see the difference between right and wrong, to always walk tall with dignity, and never forget who we are, and who is our family, to whom we owed honor and respect.
We never feared the 'devil' and never wondered if we'll have a spot in Paradise. We knew what was right and what was wrong, as simple as that. Why was it wrong because of these side effects, why was it right because of these benefits it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand...and I certainly didn't think on becoming a Sheikha or a nun - with all due respect - to get it right!!!
The bottom line, and instead of getting into the details of a religion or another, as I respect all religions by the way, the simple way is to underline SELF RESPECT...so so so simple! No threats, no guilt trips, simply respect yourself ALL the way, and the way will be perfectly beautiful, in the long run!
Have a super 'way' everyone!
Monica .......................................... Inner peace is reached by respecting ourselves and others.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 12 February 2004).]
As U know, the community see that losing virginity is a big deal for a lot of reasons.
First, most relegions does not allow to have sex outside of marriage.
Second, sex is a risk, no matter how careful the girl was (pregnancy, diseases....etc.)
It's also a matter of morals and personality.
Girls virginity is something special. When they have sex for the first time, it is gone forever (U remeber Yousef Wahby quote).
In the Arab world, any sexual indiscretion committed by a female (if discovered) causes dishonour to her father's family, and more specifically to her father himself and to her brothers. This applies as much when the girl has left the family home and is married as it does when she is single.
Needless to say, this is a broad generalization of Arab male attitudes, and does not apply to all - especially educated and widely travelled - Middle Eastern men.
Monica, as U said, am very open mind in this area, and consider it as a very personal decesion for the girl. If she decide to loose it now, or if she made her decision that she only want to loose her virginity when she is married, that is her choice!
For me, there are two things that are vital for a relationship to work:
Respect, and open, honest, bi-directional communication.
So yes Monica, I have no problem with any girl if she will be honest with me.
Virginity may be lost in an instant, by choice or by force, through calculation or through bad judgment. It is, in my opinion, incredibly naive to think that a non-virgin is any less worthy of love than a virgin.
Sometimes I also wonder if we make too big of a deal about sex. I think...
adoula: i can not find myself convinced with ur ideas, because it is not us , we are not brought that way , csll me arab thinking , call me ignorant, call me anything, but i am really not convinced,
posted
Dear BoBBoSS: I think like this, if you don't agree with my way of thinking, I can respect that, though I might not agree with your views but people can always discuss and learn something from each other.
posted
Monica, I think it is not about the concepts of virginity, but about the making of good decisions, about a woman's right to choose, and about maintaining self-respect regardless of the choices made.
posted
Our upbringing, education and personality play a definite role in making those choices.
quote:Originally posted by Adoula: Monica, I think it is not about the concepts of virginity, but about the making of good decisions, about a woman's right to choose, and about maintaining self-respect regardless of the choices made.
posted
Adoula, I know this was addressed to BoBBoSS, but it made me think, that you obviously have been exposed to a highly progressive environment. Which means that you've had an opportunity to learn and appreciate women, as human beings, as minds and not only as 'virgins' or not.
There is also the age factor. For example if an Egyptian man is in his twenties and wants to marry, he will probably have certain ideals, but these ideals will also change with 'age'and time. For example, an Egyptian man in his late thirties or forties expecting to marry a very young bride -virgin- is rare these days, although there are cases, of course. But it is more likely that in his late thirties or forties, the Egyptian man who wants to marry, will probably pick a woman that is closer to his age and that, mostly, would have been married before.
So, I see Adoula thinking out of the typical 'frame' of mind, than Egyptian men in their late twenties.
And I see BoBBoSS more inclined towards the very traditional way, and I understand he is in his late twenties.
But what about if, BoBBoSS, you were in your late thirties, would you demand that your bride be a virgin still, or would you want to marry a woman that has been married before? and to you, would the difference be the fact that she has been 'officially' married, that would be acceptable vs the unmarried that is not a 'virgin' anymore, regardless of her circumstances?
I personally think that the difference between the way of thinking between Adoula and BoBBoSS within this specific subject, is a matter of different upbringing/influences/experiences, different personality, and different age.
That brings us to a very interesting point: after all, Egyptian men do not all think the same way when it comes to women...or Do they????
QUOTE]Originally posted by Adoula: Dear BoBBoSS: I think like this, if you don't agree with my way of thinking, I can respect that, though I might not agree with your views but people can always discuss and learn something from each other.
[/QUOTE]
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 13 February 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Adoula: Dear BoBBoSS: I think like this, if you don't agree with my way of thinking, I can respect that, though I might not agree with your views but people can always discuss and learn something from each other.
u r completly right, and in fact al through my reading in this forum , i was really waiting for ur replies, u always have a good point of view, and regarding this issue, although i see it from different side, but i still agree with u that honesty and respect are the base, and i don't mind loving a non virgin , but i must know why and belive her.
i like your veiw that you dont mind loving a non virgin but that you should know why and belive her - i think that this should stand for both sexes.
i agree also with monica in that upbringing and culture play an important part when we make our choices.
i got to wondering while i was reading back over this thread - why is it that when the idea of virginity is talked about it is always talked about from the point of what men think about women who have lost their viginity. are there any 'rules' that govern this? can a man be a 'slut'? or does he just get a slap on the back from his mates?
posted
Hello Kay, the 'man virgin vs woman virgin' is really an important issue. Especially in regards with men that will not accept a 'non virgin' for a wife.
It would be fun to hear men's opinion about that actually!
In the first place, if a 'girl' is not a virgin anymore, usually it's because a man was involved.
And in general, they will both have their fun, but in most cases the woman is 'dumped' because there's an automatic loss of trust I believe, if the 'girl' let it happen!!! Which in part is extremely unfair, but on the other side I strongly believe that it is all revolving around how 'weak' is the girl. And that is certainly a matter of upbringing, how empowered she was to be decisive, to protect herself etc... and not be easily influenced by the lust bust!
As per men, they seem to have their own ideas about being 'manly' and being 'experienced'.
But let's be brutally honest here, if ALL women would not accept to have sexual relations before/outside of marriage, men would still be virgins before marriage!!! he he he
And, if ALL women would refuse to have sexual relations with married men, then again a lot of marriages would be saved - or a lot of divorces would be based on other reasons than 'adultery'!!!
In conclusion, and this is a personal opinion, I definitely think it's ALL in our hands...us women! To accept or not to accept, is our choice !
quote:Originally posted by kay in love: dear BoBBoSS
i like your veiw that you dont mind loving a non virgin but that you should know why and belive her - i think that this should stand for both sexes.
i agree also with monica in that upbringing and culture play an important part when we make our choices.
i got to wondering while i was reading back over this thread - why is it that when the idea of virginity is talked about it is always talked about from the point of what men think about women who have lost their viginity. are there any 'rules' that govern this? can a man be a 'slut'? or does he just get a slap on the back from his mates?
lots of love kay
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 13 February 2004).]
posted
hi monica loved this "But let's be brutally honest here, if women would not accept to have sexual relations before/outside of marriage, men would still be virgins before marriage!!! he he he"
i used to be married! now devorced - now very confused as to what i am??????? in egypt that is love k
posted
Kay, you are divorced then! in Egypt or else.
In Egypt, it is definitely a bigger issue socially if you are a divorced woman and friends and family will try to introduce you to elligible bachelors/divorced/widowers that's for sure. But there are a lot of divorced women in Egypt. There are no different ways of handling your situation as a divorced woman in Egypt, lead a respectable life. Simple!
If you are involved with an Egyptian man, try to make it 'official' especially if your intentions are to live in Egypt, and also depending on his social circles.
quote:Originally posted by kay in love: hi monica loved this "But let's be brutally honest here, if women would not accept to have sexual relations before/outside of marriage, men would still be virgins before marriage!!! he he he"
i used to be married! now devorced - now very confused as to what i am??????? in egypt that is love k
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 13 February 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Monica: Kay, you are divorced then! in Egypt or else.
In Egypt, it is definitely a bigger issue socially if you are a divorced woman and friends and family will try to introduce you to elligible bachelors/divorced/widowers that's for sure. But there are a lot of divorced women in Egypt. There are no different ways of handling your situation as a divorced woman in Egypt, lead a respectable life. Simple!
If you are involved with an Egyptian man, try to make it 'official' especially if your intentions are to live in Egypt, and also depending on his social circles.
when you say 'official' monica do you mean make my devorce official or are we talking marrage? sorry to be so dim but as i am going back i live in fear of doing something 'wrong' love kay?
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 13 February 2004).]
posted
Kay are you 'officially' divorced? If not make it official, girl! If yes, then make your relationship with the Egyptian man 'official' too, like an engagement, leading to marriage, if you people are going to live in Egypt. Out of Egypt, it is generally accepted - also depending on social circles by the way - but inside Egypt it is not generally accepted, in MOST circles, that is.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 13 February 2004).]
posted
monica im very definalty officialy devorced! as for the other, i get it now, thanks kay X
Posts: 128 | From: uk | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am so interested in this topic! I have entered endless discussions on persevering chastity and virginity both in Egypt and abroad. The best statement I ever heard was for an Egyptian Activist who once said “ women’s honour is community’s honour, every one is trying to persevere it”. And the best illustration I have ever seen was presented during the meeting of the International Federation of Gynecology and obstetric (FIGO). In the opening remarks that were made by a very famous Egyptian Gynaecologist, a picture of a naked women was presented. On each of the different organs, it was marked MINE i,e, my head, my hand, my ear……. and coming to the Vagina, it was marked every body BUT mine.
This example explains it all, we are here in the thread talking about “non-virgin and non married” women vs. “virgin and non-married” women.
Practising your sexuality is the right of every one yet ,the surrounding traditions and norms could bind us with certain stereotypes and images i.e if you have sex before marriage than you are a slut if you have sex before marriage then you will cheat on your husband.
According to our upbringing, exposure and personal development, we can choose to agree or disagree with these norms.
So we can find: 1) some women who decide to be virgin and have no premarital sex 2) some women who decided to engage in a sexual relation(s) and face up to their choices, 3) some women who decided to engage in a sexual relation(s) but could not face up to their choices and deny it and go for hymnology.
I found that third type of women are perceived by the majority as liars and sluts! Women in some communities with bias codes and harsh judgements could go for such actions to be accepted in their surrounding and within their communities. They do not deliberately aim towards deception and laying, rather fitting and acceptance. This is called the “power of negotiation”. The patriarchal society rules, women bind to its judgement, BUT, still practice their our rights!
Defining the hymenology as an unethical operation is not ethical!. Let me tell you Monica that in Medical Professional you are bind by the Medical ethical Code which states that “ no harm and preserve healthy functioning body organs at all cost unless they carry life-threatening disease”. In this case you are no doing no harm but actually good as you are helping someone to be physiologically well.
I want to underscore the issue of Men Virginity vs. women’s virginity. Why we are cheering for “Adoula” as he accept to marry a non-virgin women. Did we ( women) forgot that we always accept to marry a non-virgin man and this was never considered as a heroic act and no one cheered for us!
As for the religion , we all know that both men and women should not have pre-martial sex. Therefore, the virginity issue is a tradition myth rather than a religious obligation.
posted
Many thanks for this eloquent and informative post Mooly El Din. Really enriching and very much appreciated.
In your opinion, how ethical is it to lie to a future husband, about such an issue? I can just imagine the psychological state of the couple (!) when the husband divorces the wife abruptly, if he finds out.
Personally, I heard of a few cases where the husband sued the practionner and won the case - in Egypt, because it is an illegal practice, as far as my knowlege goes, and instead of saying it is an UNETHICAL operation, I should have said an ILLEGAL practice in Egypt and some Arab countries, according to MY information -
There was in fact a program discussing the hymen restoration issue in 'Arabic Radio and Television', last year, stating the cases against the practitionners, stating cases of accidental defloration etc..etc...it was very controversial. The following was also on the net:
"Although abortions and hymen restorations are illegal in Egypt, the latter operation is widely performed in clinics throughout the country in an attempt to keep up appearances. The mufti's declaration paves the way to legalize those operations. "Nothing is preventing the introduction of a law allowing operations to give back virginity to a woman who is raped because it gives her the right to restart her life,"
About cheering Adoula, it was more like an observation, that Egyptian men exposed to non- traditional environments, thought differently, when it came to taboos/sensitive cultural issues etc..., and comparing his frame of mind to others. Surely, according to the way women were/are brought up in general, a 'brain wash' led most to believe that it was/is ok for a MAN not to be a virgin before marriage, regardless of religious beliefs.
In any case, I certainly enjoyed your contribution enormously! Thanks again, Monica
quote:Originally posted by Mooly El Din: .
Defining the hymenology as an unethical operation is not ethical!. Let me tell you Monica that in Medical Professional you are bind by the Medical ethical Code which states that “ no harm and preserve healthy functioning body organs at all cost unless they carry life-threatening disease”. In this case you are no doing no harm but actually good as you are helping someone to be physiologically well.
Sorry again for long reply cheers
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 13 February 2004).]
posted
mooly el din : i really liked ur reply , it makes sense, and i wish also to know adoula's opinion regarding virginity of a girl Vs man monica: issues are heating up here fast))
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Monica: [B]Adoula, I know this was addressed to BoBBoSS, but it made me think, that you obviously have been exposed to a highly progressive environment. Which means that you've had an opportunity to learn and appreciate women, as human beings, as minds and not only as 'virgins' or not.
There is also the age factor. For example if an Egyptian man is in his twenties and wants to marry, he will probably have certain ideals, but these ideals will also change with 'age'and time. For example, an Egyptian man in his late thirties or forties expecting to marry a very young bride -virgin- is rare these days, although there are cases, of course. But it is more likely that in his late thirties or forties, the Egyptian man who wants to marry, will probably pick a woman that is closer to his age and that, mostly, would have been married before.
So, I see Adoula thinking out of the typical 'frame' of mind, than Egyptian men in their late twenties.
And I see BoBBoSS more inclined towards the very traditional way, and I understand he is in his late twenties.
But what about if, BoBBoSS, you were in your late thirties, would you demand that your bride be a virgin still, or would you want to marry a woman that has been married before? and to you, would the difference be the fact that she has been 'officially' married, that would be acceptable vs the unmarried that is not a 'virgin' anymore, regardless of her circumstances?
I personally think that the difference between the way of thinking between Adoula and BoBBoSS within this specific subject, is a matter of different upbringing/influences/experiences, different personality, and different age.
monica: i agree with u about the differences in the way of thinking between men, and yes, i am 27 , but i am not taking the very traditional way , i am just trying to distinguish between the right and the wrong according to our traditions , but yet, i didn't declare what is my own inclination would be , and it may surprise u a little bit to know it, but lets discuss what u asked, being in 30th , what would i like? i guess being a virgin is not something important , because within myself i don't like big differences in age between couples, beside ,but every age has its won advantage , a pre married lady , a virgin , and more, everyone of them will have something plus and also somethng minus, so i will leave it to the emotional attraction to decide,
monica: i agree with u about the differences in the way of thinking between men, and yes, i am 27 , but i am not taking the very traditional way , i am just trying to distinguish between the right and the wrong according to our traditions , but yet, i didn't declare what is my own inclination would be , and it may surprise u a little bit to know it.
Hey BoBBoSS, nothing surprises me anymore believe me!!!
You actually seem like a flexible kind of guy, which is another good example in regards with Egyptian men.
Happy Valentine day BOBBoSS!!! Hoping you have a great year with all the ones you love/friends and family included!
Sincerely Monica
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 14 February 2004).]
Thanks for your kind words, enjoy ES, and have a wonderful Valentine day/evening, and a year full of love!
Personally I enjoy contributing to ES, it is a great therapy in a way...and also an..addiction .. and if I can help some, why not!? It's a two way journey!
Keep posting!
Sincerely, Monica
quote:Originally posted by Rimo: Thanks Monica, from the number of your posts i take it you're definitely an authority in this board. Thank you again that was vey sweet of you.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 14 February 2004).]
posted
Happy valantine to u too Monica, and to everyone here in ES , wishing everyone is having a very good times , and i agree with u , ES is a therapy and it became an addiction now))
posted
Rimo, I know what you're saying, I was just trying to give Mooly the benefit of the doubt!
I have to admit that I looked it up, and found it had absolutely nothing to do with medecine, so I described it differently as you may have noticed. But let's see Mooly's reply. Maybe tired? Mooly, what was it...?
Monica
QUOTE]Originally posted by Rimo: Dear Monica, we don't make that kind of spelling mistakes in medical profession, we do make mistakes, everybody does, nobody is perfect but THIS is a medical term, you don't make that kind of mistake REPEATEDLY unless you're not familiar with the term. Let me give u an example here.A HeMatologist (sometimes spelled heamatologist) is a doctor that specializes in blood diseases, A HePatologist is a doctor that specializes in liver diseases, get my drift? You don't confuse Podiatrist with Pediatrician, otherwise you'll end up taking a a grown man with a sprained ankle to children's doctor or worse taking a child with measles to a foot doctor!!. What do you think. P.S 1002 posts? I'm really impressed
[/QUOTE]
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 15 February 2004).]
I do not know why the big fuss on how I spelled the term. Whether it was spelled Hymnology, Hymenorrhaphy or Hymenology. You could have just corrected it with no fuss!!
You do not need to be a medical doctor/personnel to write the correct term, you just need a good dictionary!
In addition, you made it sound like if I am not a medical personnel, then I will not know what I am talking about. That is the arrogance of the profession!
When I shared my views with the group I did not mean to show off!!! I did not even use the results of any studies that looked at similar issues or made a comparative analysis. I simply shared my views as an Egyptian woman, who happened to face the same situation and to make a choice. When I mentioned the FIGO meeting, it was simply to say where I heard this and not to imply that I go to prestigious meetings!
By your argument, you diverted the follow of the discussion from why do women do it to and can we judge them? -to- is Mooly a creditable medical personal or one of those ladies from interested organization who attend medical meetings?(never heard of those ladies, may be you meant members of NGOs) but thanks for the attention any way!
Although, I do not need to justify and I do not think it is a problem not to know the term! Yet what simply happened is that I first wrote my reply in a Word document. When I ran the spell check function, I was in a hurry and pressed the icon “change all” and as it did not recongize the term Hymenorrhaphy,and it changed it to the nearest recgonized word! So simple.
Thanks Monica for giving me the benefit of the doubt, yet again I do not think that not knowing the exact term of the operation or not affiliated to the medical field prevents you from having a valid perspective and a solid argument on the issue. I am saying while I am in the medical science field! I got rid of the science arrogance quite long time ago
First, let me tell you that I enjoyed very much reading all the arguments and I would like to share with you very interesting (at least I think so) similar social behaviours that we do not consider as hypocrisy or cheating. But I will have to excuse you to write this later tonigh, as work is piling
I really do not want to waste your or my time exchanging defensive messages. Honestly, I didn’t mean to be rude I only said that your message is bias and smells “arrogance of the profession” I did not mean you in person.
I also did not take your message personally and did not ask for an apology. As you said we are all grown up and are entitled to your views. I was just surprised of the fuss you made over the typo, to the extend that you wrote a long reply to dismiss the possibility of its being a typo!
In my post I said “ that I heard” and not “ I heard about”. It happened that I was in this meeting.
When one formulates a point of view on an issue , this could be as a result of many things: extensive reading, impulsive feelings, personal experience, or social and/or religious believes. I have shared with the group my point of view based on the anthropological and/social theories talking about Power relations within patriarchal societies, marriagetabilty, means of negotiation, informed consent, individuality vs conventionality, and many others. There is no straight fact or static evidence when it comes to human behaviour ( this is fact). I tried to base my argument on the only available scientific references, of course I have my own personal convictions, but I tried to put them a side. So you have the right to call these women liars, hypocrite, dishonest, to the end of the list, but this is not neither FACT or Science, even medical one!
quote:Originally posted by Monica: In your opinion, how ethical is it to lie to a future husband, about such an issue? I can just imagine the psychological state of the couple (!) when the husband divorces the wife abruptly, if he finds out.[/B]
Monica, as usual you put your finger on the open wound.
For the past quarter hour I've been staring at the screen choosing my very best comment to this brilliant insight, but eventually my mind is still a jumble.
Some cultural things are so ingrained that I can imagine a foreign woman who loves a man with all her heart thinking twice and finally hiding her lack of virginity from her husband. She knows that no matter how progressive he is, in his heart he will never ever forgive her, not because he does not understand, but because the concept of a virgin bride has been drummed into his brain until he can not avoid it no matter how hard he tries.
don't you think Egyptian men have enough insight to figure out that the chance for finding 'western' girls still virgins when they meet them, are something like finding a pearl in the desert?
it comes down to; do you think that the man you love (not personally!) deserves to be lied to? can a healthy and happy marriage develop based on a lie? and will it be easier for the man to accept that fact after x years, after a live of trust and confidence in each other?
I don't think so. Everything starts with honesty, nobody deserves to be lied to and deceived. People have to take responsibility for who they are and what they did, no matter what.
Many of you sound like the Egypt. people developed something like a social sickness by promoting virginity and sex only within marriage, and that goes mostly for the Christians also in the country, as far as I know.
Egypt. man can very well distinguish between an Egypt. girl, whose social/ cultural upbringing and religious committment forbids her from sexual relations outside marriage, and a 'western' girl for whom the very subject is simply a personal matter.
Still if an Egypt. man falls in love with a 'western' girl, he has to know what that means, and usually to talk freely and discuss everything is the only way.
I agree with you Monica, and you brought back to my memory a point I had lost, why is it so important, that the initiative not to do 'it' comes from the girls? because men are the much weaker sex in this matter!
quote:Originally posted by karinfarid: Oh Lori, dear
don't you think Egyptian men have enough insight to figure out that the chance for finding 'western' girls still virgins when they meet them, are something like finding a pearl in the desert?
it comes down to; do you think that the man you love (not personally!) deserves to be lied to? can a healthy and happy marriage develop based on a lie? and will it be easier for the man to accept that fact after x years, after a live of trust and confidence in each other? salaam, Karin
Karin, you are twisting my words.
What I said was that NOT that an Egyptian man should be lied to. What I am saying is that many people accept things from a logical point of view but have a difficulty of accepting the same thing from an EMOTIONAL point of view. He may logically accept that a Western girl is not a virgin, and yet not live with the idea of having a girlfriend who was first touched by another man.
The two feelings are not incompatible. Moreover, this duality is not only on the subject of virginity.
To give you an example, a young Christian woman proposed to by a Muslim man whom she dearly loved decided to reject his proposal because she realised she will never accept raising their children as Muslim. After imagining herself secretly baptizing her children when her husband would be away at work, secretly teaching them the Bible and hiding all this from a man she adored, she realised she could not do this to him. She also could not do this to herself. She refused his proposal. He still does not understand why. Do you?
Yet I referred to your statement: "Some cultural things are so ingrained that I can imagine a foreign woman who loves a man with all her heart thinking twice and finally hiding her lack of virginity from her husband."
I am with you that logically AND emotionally accepting something may be difficult, but it is possible, and it is the same for all the people in the world, men and women alike, because we all hold on to some values and beliefs precious to us and difficult to be compromised on a personal level.
A progressive man will not apply the same rules and standards of his own religious and social background on the foreign woman he is falling in love with. He may very well accept that his Western wife is not a virgin, and live with the idea also,(I want to exclude the man whose morality allows him to have a girlfriend). It would be much easier or no problem at all to accept emotionally if the woman is divorced or widowed, vs. she had a number of boyfriends before. It is a matter of trust and honesty, and something that can be worked out with love, patience and understanding and overcome, there is no general rule that dooms all the relationships and there is no guarrantee that it will work.. that's life! The more important that the man and woman take enough time to get to know each other and think deeply and are sure of their feelings before getting married.
Your example confuses me a little, because the kind of devouted Egypt. christian girl I know, would not even contemplate to marry a muslim man, for a lot of reasons we don't have to mention here. But I believe the girl is right, if she is so devoted to her religion that she could not accept her kids being raised as Muslims, she was right to refuse the proposal. However, if she just said exactly that in plain Arabic words to the young man, I'm sure also he would understand.
Do you mean because she was thinking about raising her kids secretely as christians could be perceived as a duality? I would like to explain to you the difference of the 2 subjects:
Islam allows the Muslim man to marry muslim women and women from the people of the book, as the Koran calls the Christians and Jews honorably, be they widowed, divorced or virgins, yet it is his duty to raise his children as Muslims, there is no way to compromise on this.
But I do wonder why nobody has raised the issue from an islamic point of view, that the woman has to be a 'believer', some think that means a devouted christian or jewish woman, some think a believer in God and some just cancel the word 'believer' and stick to the term 'from the people of the book'.
quote:Originally posted by karinfarid: But I do wonder why nobody has raised the issue from an islamic point of view, that the woman has to be a 'believer', some think that means a devouted christian or jewish woman, some think a believer in God and some just cancel the word 'believer' and stick to the term 'from the people of the book'.
Dear Karin,
Thank you for the nice words. It is a pleasure to meet someone so progressive. If more people thought like you, the earth would be a better place.
The Christian girl in question is not Egyptian, but from Europe. I don't think she met Muslims before travelling to Egypt. She fell in love and it took her some time to realize all the implications to her life if she married.
What many people marrying outside their religion fail to realize that religion is not just the Holy Book, whether you call it the Qur'an, the Bible or the Torah. Religion is also represented in a million habits, holidays and celebrations with your family. Changing your religion means not being able to celebrate with loved ones. You celebrated Christmas and Easter all your life and all of a sudden you are not allowed at family gatherings, and even if you would go the family would be divided and you are regarded as an intruder.
Your parents may not have a word in how your children, their grandchildren, are raised, for fear they will instill religious beliefs they are not allowed to talk about.
If it was only the religion, it would be simple! But it's also a family matter. I am sure that Muslims, who are also family oriented, understand the issue.
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