posted
Tariq Abdullah is a muslim, living in Europe. He became national news because of his rather unusual way to make his statements: every night he is scratching posters out of billboards. A lingerie store developed a new commercial campaign, and on their advertisement posters they show a woman wearing underwear.
Tariq took it as a life challenege to protect society from this; he is scratcing posters day by day. He claims to act out of respect to God, and says to have nothing against women, but they have to wear more as only a slip and a bra. "I do so to protect women and children, when they are passing by" says Abdullah "probably they may think that they have to look this way to pleasure men. If they follow God's way, the Islamic way in particular,they are able to avoid the danger".
The police hasn't done anything yet, but think they will do soon. They háve to, because media took it as a subject of intolerance. Of course, when people have choosed to live in a country with freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom to believe or not to believe, this is one of the consequences of making that choice.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
More power to him! I really hate the hypocrisy of "you can't dress this way in the street or outside" but "it's okay for me to watch these half naked women on tv" crud. If it's not okay for us to go outside like that and showing our bodies(which is good, we shouldn't be showing them), then why is it okay for men to look at women on tv or in movies like that? Bah!
I think it's time for men to re-discover the meaning of the word modesty, not just for women, but for themselves.
Posts: 1283 | From: Cairo | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Did he discover the underwear shops yet?? There is lot of work to be done!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: More power to him! I really hate the hypocrisy of "you can't dress this way in the street or outside" but "it's okay for me to watch these half naked women on tv" crud. If it's not okay for us to go outside like that and showing our bodies(which is good, we shouldn't be showing them), then why is it okay for men to look at women on tv or in movies like that? Bah!
I think it's time for men to re-discover the meaning of the word modesty, not just for women, but for themselves.
I don't think so. Of course he can disagree with openly show women in their underwear, but that doesn't give him the right to destroy what isn't his! Above that, when you disgree with that posters, he also has to disagree with, for instance, beaches and swimming pools where women are laying in bikini ( or less ) Destroy them too? Short skirts, sleevesless, etc. it all are facts from living in a free society. When this is bothering him, he should go an live in a society that does not know this freedom, where women are not free to wear what they want.
With other words: He has no right to do this...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
They do this crap in Egypt too. Every time there is a poster of a woman they scratch all the bare parts. And sometimes they write the word "haram" across it. It's disgusting. If he doesn't want to see this stuff then he should look away. Musilms need to accept that people are different
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: They do this crap in Egypt too. Every time there is a poster of a woman they scratch all the bare parts. And sometimes they write the word "haram" across it. It's disgusting. If he doesn't want to see this stuff then he should look away. Musilms need to accept that people are different
posted
I do think its highly overdone to advertise with half-naked - even naked - women for all kind of products. I see that stuff everywhere on the streets and in TV too. I can imagine that someone who grew up in another culture will be (extremely) uncomfortable watching this. Well sex sells and that's all what counts for companies. And we as consumers are confronted with it so much on the daily base that we hardly realize anymore.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
That's not the point, TL. I think there are enough western people who also should prefer a little less... It is what you DO with that opinion. As you are free to have your opinion, someone else has that same freedom.
You can dislike a woman in her underwear on a billboard, that doesn't give you the right to ripp it of.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: I do think its highly overdone to advertise with half-naked - even naked - women for all kind of products. I see that stuff everywhere on the streets and in TV too. I can imagine that someone who grew up in another culture will be (extremely) uncomfortable watching this. Well sex sells and that's all what counts for companies. And we as consumers are confronted with it so much on the daily base that we hardly realize anymore.
I agree TL it is overdone in advertizing BUT the women who pose are not forced to do it and as you say, sex sells. I grew up with this culture and I dont even see it anymore but in the same way as I wouldnt come here to Egypt and try to change things in advertizing here and put half naked women everywhere, I dont think someone has the right to come from here and and try doing the opposite in Europe. If this advertizing is going to be stopped its the duty of every purchaser who buys based on those adverts NOT to buy BECAUSE of those adverts, thats the only way it will stop or change.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: When this is bothering him, he should go an live in a society that does not know this freedom, where women are not free to wear what they want.
I don't know about this guy, but people seem to be assuming that he's not European and that he came from somewhere else to live in Europe. Nothing in what's mentioned indicates where he's from, so maybe he's European born and bred. If this is the case, then I think it's a bit patronising to say that he should leave his own country (presumably somewhere in Europe) to go live in another foreign culture. Of course even if he's European, there's no reason why he shouldn't emigrate to another country, which brings me to the more important issue. If you're not happy with something in your society, should you try to change it or should you just leave? To me the answer is to try to change it, that's what social reformers normally do (politicians, thinkers, even prophets, etc), and in extreme cases that's how revolutions happen. This is like saying if you don't like the current regime in Egypt, then leave!!
Of course the issue then becomes what is right for society and who has the right ot decide it, but that's a completely different debate.
Please note that I'm not saying what he's done is right, or even wrong for that matter. I'm discussing a more fundamental issue, that of changing vs keeping things as they are. I am NOT discussing the means for implementing this change.
quote:Originally posted by ?????: When this is bothering him, he should go an live in a society that does not know this freedom, where women are not free to wear what they want.
I don't know about this guy, but people seem to be assuming that he's not European and that he came from somewhere else to live in Europe. Nothing in what's mentioned indicates where he's from, so maybe he's European born and bred.
Good point Ramses!!!
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: When this is bothering him, he should go an live in a society that does not know this freedom, where women are not free to wear what they want.
I don't know about this guy, but people seem to be assuming that he's not European and that he came from somewhere else to live in Europe. Nothing in what's mentioned indicates where he's from, so maybe he's European born and bred. If this is the case, then I think it's a bit patronising to say that he should leave his own country (presumably somewhere in Europe) to go live in another foreign culture. Of course even if he's European, there's no reason why he shouldn't emigrate to another country, which brings me to the more important issue. If you're not happy with something in your society, should you try to change it or should you just leave? To me the answer is to try to change it, that's what social reformers normally do (politicians, thinkers, even prophets, etc), and in extreme cases that's how revolutions happen. This is like saying if you don't like the current regime in Egypt, then leave!!
Of course the issue then becomes what is right for society and who has the right ot decide it, but that's a completely different debate.
Please note that I'm not saying what he's done is right, or even wrong for that matter. I'm discussing a more fundamental issue, that of changing vs keeping things as they are. I am NOT discussing the means for implementing this change.
Peace
In a democracy, there are democratic rights. As a member of a democratic society we know freedom of speech ( Tariq has the right to say what he doesn't like in that society), freedom of expression ( to write and publish his opinion), to vote for a political party which shares his opinion, to make a political party himself, etc.etc. a lot of rights and as long as he acts within the law, it's fine by me.
Starting a revolution is something else. Starting a revolution is acting against the laws, ( BTW think revolutions are rare in a democracy), and the result of that revolution is going to make that person a criminal or a hero.
In a democracy a revolution is totally superfluous, for there are democratic rights, and when there are enough people sharing the same opinion, democracy offers them the right to change. So, I do not agree in your revolution theory.
Tariq Abdullah is muslim, and living in Europe. He could have been born and raised in Europe, even having a EU-nationality, but as long as he isn't able to cope with European laws, and it is bothering him that much that he feels forced to act against the law day by day, he is living in the wrong country. That's not as strange as it sounds, there are numbers of European muslims who state that their believes do not unite with the European life-style. There are even politicians active by explaining Islam in the way that it SHOULD be possible to live as a muslim in Europe. Tariq Ramadan (grandson of Hassan al Banna MB founder)is famous with that.
So; also for Islamic citizens there are the same democratic rights as for anybody else. As soon as this man is starting to break the law, he can be prosecuted, also just as anybody else. Starting a revolution is out of the question, he wouldn't get enough supporters.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
When I replied to this, it was a day after having been to City Stars mall here in Egypt. I think lingerie stores were the single biggest type of store, which is fine, but seems a little strange in a Muslim country yeah? However, what bugged me was that in the brochure/map they give out of the mall, one of the advertisements was for lingerie and showed a woman wearing some skimpy outfit. This is not a case of me being in California and people are used to seeing that kind of junk. I'm in Egypt, in a country that is supposed to be filled with Muslims, and I see the same garbage that I did back in the States. That was what drove my post. Women should/are supposed to be modest outside the house, and yet there are advertisements for any man to see anywhere, of half dressed women! Argh!
To Ramses, very nice post!
Posts: 1283 | From: Cairo | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Egypt is not a democracy, in spite of the fact they claim to be so. Apperently the Egyptian gouvernment isn't bothered by the common opinion of the Egyptian citizens. I immediatly believe that most people don't appreciate what commercials and advertisements spread out.
If people don't like it, they don't have any right to make it change. So, yes a revolution should be possible, specially because the life-circumstances are hard, and they have a lot to complain. That's a totally different issue, as that from Tariq living in Europe...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: When this is bothering him, he should go an live in a society that does not know this freedom, where women are not free to wear what they want.
Of course even if he's European, there's no reason why he shouldn't emigrate to another country, which brings me to the more important issue. If you're not happy with something in your society, should you try to change it or should you just leave?
Please note that I'm not saying what he's done is right, or even wrong for that matter. I'm discussing a more fundamental issue, that of changing vs keeping things as they are. I am NOT discussing the means for implementing this change.
Peace
In a democracy, there are democratic rights. As a member of a democratic society we know freedom of speech ( Tariq has the right to say what he doesn't like in that society), freedom of expression ( to write and publish his opinion), to vote for a political party which shares his opinion, to make a political party himself, etc.etc. a lot of rights and as long as he acts within the law, it's fine by me.
Starting a revolution is something else. Starting a revolution is acting against the laws, ( BTW think revolutions are rare in a democracy), and the result of that revolution is going to make that person a criminal or a hero.
In a democracy a revolution is totally superfluous, for there are democratic rights, and when there are enough people sharing the same opinion, democracy offers them the right to change. So, I do not agree in your revolution theory.
Tariq Abdullah is muslim, and living in Europe. He could have been born and raised in Europe, even having a EU-nationality, but as long as he isn't able to cope with European laws, and it is bothering him that much that he feels forced to act against the law day by day, he is living in the wrong country. That's not as strange as it sounds, there are numbers of European muslims who state that their believes do not unite with the European life-style. There are even politicians active by explaining Islam in the way that it SHOULD be possible to live as a muslim in Europe. Tariq Ramadan (grandson of Hassan al Banna MB founder)is famous with that.
So; also for Islamic citizens there are the same democratic rights as for anybody else. As soon as this man is starting to break the law, he can be prosecuted, also just as anybody else. Starting a revolution is out of the question, he wouldn't get enough supporters.
I think you missed my point, in fact you fell in the very pitfall I was warning against!! see the last sentence in my previous post. My point was about change vs sod off (aka leave). My post was NOT about the means for implementing change, be it revolution or help from extraterrestials or the force or Rambo or what have you Peace again Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote: They do this crap in Egypt too. Every time there is a poster of a woman they scratch all the bare parts. And sometimes they write the word "haram" across it. It's disgusting. If he doesn't want to see this stuff then he should look away. Musilms need to accept that people are different
Couldn’t agree more. Personally, seeing pictures of people actually in the clothes and underwear gives a much better indication of how it can look, than how it is on a hanger (although sadly I don't have the size 8 figure the models do lol). If muslim men don't like it, then they should look away- in fact, aren't they supposed to anyway?
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
In Dubai I still buy all my favourite magazines from the UK like Closer, Heat, etc and if a woman is dressed in a bikini (say some celeb on holiday) then someone has the job of drawing thick lines in black marker over the body parts of every single magazine that shows these images.
I used to work for a publishing company in Dubai and one of their magazines is Grazia Middle East and someone I knew there has a full time job editing pictures where women are scantily dressed ensuring no body parts are shown before they go in the magazine.
At the same time, there is a poster campaign currently running in Cairo for a womens clothing store (I forgot it's name) but they provide abayas etc and one of their adverts I passed says "it's good to be veiled" so thats advertising going in the total opposite direction...
Posts: 500 | From: United Arab Emirates | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
hahaha he would sure hate usa he would have a huge job along millions of highways scratching off the pocters...he would need more nails . but i sure would lovbe to see that poor man in action.
-------------------- your ass is so tight when you fart only a dog can hear it.when you queef only a cat can hear that one. Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: When this is bothering him, he should go an live in a society that does not know this freedom, where women are not free to wear what they want.
Of course even if he's European, there's no reason why he shouldn't emigrate to another country, which brings me to the more important issue. If you're not happy with something in your society, should you try to change it or should you just leave?
Please note that I'm not saying what he's done is right, or even wrong for that matter. I'm discussing a more fundamental issue, that of changing vs keeping things as they are. I am NOT discussing the means for implementing this change.
Peace
In a democracy, there are democratic rights. As a member of a democratic society we know freedom of speech ( Tariq has the right to say what he doesn't like in that society), freedom of expression ( to write and publish his opinion), to vote for a political party which shares his opinion, to make a political party himself, etc.etc. a lot of rights and as long as he acts within the law, it's fine by me.
Starting a revolution is something else. Starting a revolution is acting against the laws, ( BTW think revolutions are rare in a democracy), and the result of that revolution is going to make that person a criminal or a hero.
In a democracy a revolution is totally superfluous, for there are democratic rights, and when there are enough people sharing the same opinion, democracy offers them the right to change. So, I do not agree in your revolution theory.
Tariq Abdullah is muslim, and living in Europe. He could have been born and raised in Europe, even having a EU-nationality, but as long as he isn't able to cope with European laws, and it is bothering him that much that he feels forced to act against the law day by day, he is living in the wrong country. That's not as strange as it sounds, there are numbers of European muslims who state that their believes do not unite with the European life-style. There are even politicians active by explaining Islam in the way that it SHOULD be possible to live as a muslim in Europe. Tariq Ramadan (grandson of Hassan al Banna MB founder)is famous with that.
So; also for Islamic citizens there are the same democratic rights as for anybody else. As soon as this man is starting to break the law, he can be prosecuted, also just as anybody else. Starting a revolution is out of the question, he wouldn't get enough supporters.
I think you missed my point, in fact you fell in the very pitfall I was warning against!! see the last sentence in my previous post. My point was about change vs sod off (aka leave). My post was NOT about the means for implementing change, be it revolution or help from extraterrestials or the force or Rambo or what have you Peace again
Okay, changings vs keeping things as they are. Unless you isolate a society completely, you can't avoid that societies are changing. They change because of incoming influences; and how bigger the foreign input is, the faster a society will change.
One of the constantly 'active' changes in Europe is because of the instream of foreign people. Because Europe is the 'old world' it also has the biggest history in case of foreign influences. The oldest left traces are of course by foreign invaders, later by slaves and kolonialism, again later by immigrants.
Right now there is a sort of "Islam"-issue. However still a minority, there are millions of muslims living in Europe. Majority of them without any problem, and their religion isn't playing the same role as it should play when they should live in an Islamic state. All these Muslims are enjoying the same rights as any other civilian. So, a number of them strives for changes, in the democratic way.
We know the separation of religion and state. So, even with all this democratic rights, they will not be able to get an Islamic State in Europe. Unless they form a majority, change the laws and get what they want in a democratic way. (BTW, that's possible. There have been undemocratic gouvernmentes who have been democratically chosen: The 3rd reich-Adolf Hitler)
So, it's not likely that they will ever reach this. Then they have a choice to make. If their religion is thát important to them, and they are constantly confrontated with a life-style that is going into their own norms and values, and there is no futurious chance on changes, then they should go and search for their promised land. A country that is fully living with their norms and values.
Happens a lot. I can imagine when I should be a convinced believer in whatever kind of religion, Western Europe does not solute to my norms and values. And that maybe might me make the decision to immigrate to a country offering me what I need...
But; one question: Do you think that every single person in Europe totally agrees in expressions of others? Of course not, but we respect the way somebody behaves because it is a result of freedom. As this Tariq Abdullah does not like the billboards with halfnaked women, there also will be people who do not agree with Tariq. But as long as he acts within the law, we cannot do more as disagree or dislike. Because Tariq is using his rights...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: But; one question: Do you think that every single person in Europe totally agrees in expressions of others? Of course not, but we respect the way somebody behaves because it is a result of freedom. As this Tariq Abdullah does not like the billboards with halfnaked women, there also will be people who do not agree with Tariq. But as long as he acts within the law, we cannot do more as disagree or dislike. Because Tariq is using his rights...
I respectfully disagree with you, I believe some (possibly many) people in the west behave the same way as this poor fellow does, and take the law in their own hands, i.e. don't seek change through "democratic means".
Many years ago the pro-life people in the US used to attack abortion clinics. If I remember correctly they killed one or maybe more of the people working there. Surely that's not within the law of the US. Simliarly, about the same time there were the armed militias in the US like the one who executed the Oklahoma federal building operation. Again not acting within the law.
You might say that those are Americans, i.e. almost extremist by nature, but then there are incidents in Europe also where people decided to act against the law of their countries. The Green campaigners come to mind, they break into power plants and onto airport runways. Only weeks ago you had the problems with the anarchists during the G20 summit in London, similarly with the anti-globalisation campaigners whenever the G8 summit is held, etc.
The list goes on and on. Surely all of those cause more harm than that poor chap! The worst of all of course is the Iraq and the Afghan wars, where the purpose was to bring change!! ironically a democratic change!!!!
I suppose what troubles me is that some people in the "west" have this holier than thou attitude where they claim the high moral ground when in fact they are not as infallible as they believe themselves to be. Please note that I'm not claiming that the "east" is any better either. My point is that we all have our shortcommings, simply by virtue of being human.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Of course! For instance, the Animal Liberation Front has numbers of deads on their name. They are extremists cq. criminals, and get punished by law. You never will hear me claim that every Western born and raised citizen has high morals...
But that doesn't make them different as a muslim extremist: for both counts: when they break the law, they will get sentenced.
If you don't mind I think the Iraq/Afghanistan issue is NOT like this. There are western soldiers there, because the countries decided so, and that's not breaking their contries law.
Maybe you think my attitude is more 'holy' as it should, but sorry, I am not an extremist! I don't break the law because I don't like the behaviour of someone else. I have AN OPINION about somebody else. I think, when the western life-style with all their sex-related exposure, really is bothering people, while they don't have any futurious prostects that this will ever change ( worse, I think it will become more bad as it already is) then Europe is not the right place for them!
And yes, I have my shortcomings, even have them a lot! But I still prefer living in Europe above living in Egypt, specially because I am a woman! Because the problem is, that scratching Abdullah in Holland, can be found multiplied in Egypt. And then it isn't only poster scratching...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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