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A police officer in a small town stopped a motorist who was speeding down Main Street.
"But, officer," the man began, "I can explain" "Just be quiet," snapped the officer. "I'm going to let you cool your heels in jail until the chief gets back."
"But, officer, I just wanted to say" "And I said to keep quiet! You're going to jail!"
A few hours later the officer looked in on his prisoner and said, "Lucky for you that the chief's at his daughter's wedding. He'll be in a good mood when he gets back."
"Don't count on it," answered the fellow in the cell. "I'm the groom."
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by kkkaaa: [B]hehe
nice one
cheers mate !
I thought I was a woman for 33 yrs !Does not matter !
Have fun:
During the wedding rehearsal, the groom approached the pastor with an unusual offer:
"Look, I'll give you $100 if you'll change the wedding vows. When you get to the part where I'm supposed to promise to 'love, honor and obey' and 'be faithful to her forever,' I'd appreciate it if you'd just leave that out."
He passed the minister a $100 bill and walked away satisfied.
On the day of the wedding, when it came time for the groom's vows, the pastor looked the young man in the eye and said: "Will you promise to prostrate yourself before her, obey her every command and wish, serve her breakfast in bed every morning of your life, and swear eternally before God and your lovely wife that you will not ever even look at another woman, as long as you both shall live?"
The groom gulped and looked around, and said in a tiny voice, "Yes," then leaned toward the pastor and hissed: "I thought we had a deal."
The pastor put a $100 bill into the groom's hand and whispered: "She made me a better offer."
Shabka is still very much alive in Egypt and it is very unlikely that you would be able to get married to an Egyptian woman without giving her a decent one in addition to her mahr, and setting her up in a flat. This will be part of the marriage agreement between the families. Shabka will be a stated value of gold (18-24 carat) jewellery and will include at least a necklace, a bracelet, a pair of earrings, and a ring with stones in them, in addition to the dabka (? sp) which is a plain gold ring.
I was only explaining the local system as you didn't seem to be aware of what it was. You may find a difference between some families, but this is the norm, the family could expect you to provide all this and possibly more if you are coming from Europe, as you could be thought to be better off financially than most Egyptians. It's a matter of status and keeping face, as well as trying to secure the best future for a daughter. You may also find that the family won't agree to you taking their daughter out of the country, many don't.
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wa alykum wa salam newcomer [i get confused with the name newcomer and nevamind..i think on is muslim and one is not :s]]im not sure nway]]
thank u for ur insight dear friend....
does this shabka thing apply to aLL egyptian, i mean thisis ot really islamic, and some say it jsut a tradtion of the pharohs...or sumthin...
wat about the religious girls out there, and familie? and the new muslim youths?
do u think i'll have a chance wid them *-| inshaAllah??
cheers
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Assalamu alaykum kkkaaa!
I was only explaining the local system as you didn't seem to be aware of what it was. You may find a difference between some families, but this is the norm, the family could expect you to provide all this and possibly more if you are coming from Europe, as you could be thought to be better off financially than most Egyptians. It's a matter of status and keeping face, as well as trying to secure the best future for a daughter. You may also find that the family won't agree to you taking their daughter out of the country, many don't.
Shabka is an Egyptian tradition adopted by both religious and non-religious families. It has no specific basis in Islam, but as you know, if something is not prohibited by the religion it is permitted, except in worship where it is the other way round. So it is an allowable cultural practice and women are at liberty to ask for whatever other women in a similar situation to them are asking for the mahr.
Whether you would be asked for it depends completely on the woman’s family, not usually on the woman herself, and I cannot second guess that. Many marriage proposals here in Egypt fall down when it comes to the negotiating stage over who will provide what.
quote:Originally posted by nevermind: It is really very easy, dear kkkaaa. If you understand what is written, then it is newcomer. If you do not, then it must be me.
nevamind.... wow marriage break down at the point of negoiaton??? o my,, do u know if in the history if egypt...wether a marriage was down WITHOUT shakba, or buying a flat..........:I but just with plain mahr?
The whole point of going to a family to ask if you can marry their daughter is to start discussions to see if they will accept you and to see if you can meet their requirements. If you have someone in mind that you want to marry I would suggest that you should be making enquiries about her family before you go to visit them to find out what you might be letting yourself in for. Do not assume that if you make a proposal that means that they have to accept you and whatever conditions you want, Egyptian families are very particular about who they let their daughters marry. Yes, some families do accept a marriage proposal with the only requirement being for a small amount of mahr, but from what I understand that is not the norm.
u think i shud try wat chance u think that an egpytian family will accept a small but moderate mahr [or shabka] wat abt thier "face"?? [pray for me dear brother n sis *-)]
salalama...Mahri???? wat is that? a hinid? is thatna hindu lady..or an indian lady???
[how did my message become a quote b4]
quote:Originally posted by kkkaaa: [QUOTE]Originally posted by newcomer: [b]Wa alaykum salaam!
So you're going to give up without even trying????! Is this the state of Muslim manhood in the world today???
[This message has been edited by kkkaaa (edited 30 April 2005).]
[This message has been edited by kkkaaa (edited 30 April 2005).]
As I said before I cannot second guess what a specific family will do, and I suggested that you did some research on the family yourself before making a decision whether it is worth continuing or not. If she is worth it you should try to do whatever you can to marry her, within the limits of your capabilities, and then leave the rest to Allah, But go in with your eyes open to reality.
quote:Originally posted by kkkaaa: wat chance u think that an egpytian family will accept a small but moderate mahr [or shabka] wat abt thier "face"??
Dear kkkaa, you can always try fall in love with a rich Egyptian girl, I mean really rich. Then they can satisfy all their material needs themselves, and "losing face" is not really a problem because their wealth gives them plenty of self-confidence to do what they please (or what their darling daughter pleases). I think (though I am only speculating here) this mahr thing is only important for some middle-class families, the social "climbers", who do not want be simple people but have not succeeded in being very wealthy and successful, yet, so they are trying to climb with everything they do. I do not even think it is possibl to be happy if you marry one of them, so why even dream of it? Find a simple girl who just loves you for you and lives her life the way it is, not dreaming of unrealistic unnecessary stuff all the time, or find someone wealthy and/or modern enough not to care about mahr so much.
Find someone like you, because then you'll understand each other and find a solution for you two.
[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 02 May 2005).]
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Mahr is actually one of the essential factors of a Muslim marriage; it is not a matter of modernity versus old-fashioned customs, it is a Muslim woman’s right. The large amounts asked for by middle class and poor families are to secure a daughter’s future due to the general financial difficulties faced by most Egyptians, not to climb the social ladder. It is actually the wealthier families that ask for the highest shabaka and make the biggest demands on a suitor to provide a high standard of living for their daughters, whereas other families will contribute to help a new couple set up their first home. Marriage in Egypt is not just something that is decided between a man and a woman, it is a family matter and about someone being accepted into the family.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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thx for ur advice twin [newcomer an nevamind]
i just want to tell u that our beloved prophet , may peace be upon him. said: [sumthing in simliar lines to this]: pple get married to a women for four reason 1)her wealth 2)her beauty 3)her linage 4)and her religion.. marry her for her religion"
this maynot be the eaxct way it was narrated, but the meaning behind it simple means that out of all factors marry her for her religion, but not to neccary ignore the others, make the LESS significant..
her age, or her wealth does not matter to me.. [beauty does..but not as much as religion :P ...]
well nway, my main problem is if i can afford it :|
quote:Originally posted by nevermind: Dear kkkaa, you can always try fall in love with a rich Egyptian girl, I mean really rich. Then they can satisfy all their material needs themselves, and "losing face" is not really a problem because their wealth gives them plenty of self-confidence to do what they please (or what their darling daughter pleases). I think (though I am only speculating here) this mahr thing is only important for some middle-class families, the social "climbers", who do not want be simple people but have not succeeded in being very wealthy and successful, yet, so they are trying to climb with everything they do. I do not even think it is possibl to be happy if you marry one of them, so why even dream of it? Find a simple girl who just loves you for you and lives her life the way it is, not dreaming of unrealistic unnecessary stuff all the time, or find someone wealthy and/or modern enough not to care about mahr so much.
Find someone like you, because then you'll understand each other and find a solution for you two.
[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 02 May 2005).]
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by kkkaaa: [B]thx for ur advice twin [newcomer an nevamind]
i just want to tell u that our beloved prophet , may peace be upon him. said: [sumthing in simliar lines to this]: pple get married to a women for four reason 1)her wealth 2)her beauty 3)her linage 4)and her religion.. marry her for her religion"
KA, what do you mean her linage ? I believe the Rasoul ( Peace Be Upon Him ) said for her Eman first.
posted
The Prophet saws(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Women may be married for four things: wealth, beauty, lineage or religious commitment.
Choose the one who is religious, may your hands be rubbed with dust (i.e., may you prosper).”
That is because she will benefit her husband in both his spiritual and worldly affairs, and will protect herself and his wealth, and will take good care of the family and give the children a good religious upbringing.
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Marriage in Egypt is not just something that is decided between a man and a woman, it is a family matter and about someone being accepted into the family.
You are again describing the theory, the "popular belief", dear newcomer, and a theory that has been preached but never quite worked even in older times, because it is so against human nature. I believe this forum here is about learning to know how the things are IN REALITY?
I believe Egypt is advancing just like all the world inevitably has been and still does and like everywhere in the world, the family ties have been strong but are loosening. Maybe slower here, but they are, because people are not so materially dependent on each other any more. The family has been historically strong mainly because it was easier to live this way, it was an easy form of organisation, but as it is now, it may be easier to speak to your bank about your business idea or new apartment, than to speak to your parents.
Parents used this tradition to secure support for themselves in the old days when no one else would care about them, because the society at large did not care and because they did not take care of their future themselves either, partially maybe because there was never enough surplus value to save something for such long time. Thus, marriage has been a bit of a family matter EVERYWHERE in the world when family ties were stronger, nothing specifically Egyptian here, just another phase of social development.
It is natural that the bride and groom care that their sisters or brothers and parents also approve, everywhere, but in the end it is still the two people who decide, and doesn't Quaran preach the same? and Bible also: a man shall agree with her wife and disagree with his parents if he needs to choose.
In reality, thus, there are and have always been as many solutions as there are different people and different grades of religiosity and/or illumination, I believe.
Actually I was describing what I have seen happening and heard about from the Muslim Egyptians that I have been living, working, and socializing with for several years in Cairo and other places. It’s quite a different Egypt from the one you are getting to know, but as kkkaaa was asking about marrying a practicing Muslimah and the Egyptian customary practices surrounding what I wrote seemed to be pertinent.
[This message has been edited by newcomer (edited 03 May 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by nevermind: Y I believe Egypt is advancing just like all the world inevitably has been and still does and like everywhere in the world, the family ties have been strong but are loosening. Maybe slower here, but they are, because people are not so materially dependent on each other any more. say.
Hi,
I agrree that alot of country are advancing, and some are slower than other. for example, some countried, espeacaily such incident as 9/11, have woken up even more.... and are advancing and excelling in waking up thier countrymen...to uphold the islamic value and teaching again...
this is called modernazation, like in saudi arabia, where alot of people have awoken up, and realised the practice of thier govt....there is a strong uprising in saudi boiling up to explode...
in egypt, i do feel that educataion and modernazation is happening there even more...more people are learning about Islaam, and are knowing the Innovation with our religion [ie shabka, well this is not an innovation...but sumthing that is not islamic, but not prohibited, as i understand]
so those religious muslimah, are getting wised up, as in the islamic world, more n more peope are getting educated, and are able to commincation more effectily, such as the internet. to learn more about islaam across the globe....
there is only ONE TRUE islaam, and being able to communicate with remote places, helps those places understand new teaching of Islaam which may have not reached them over the centuries..
basically to sum up what i been saying is that communication is the success to anything...it will be the success of Islaaam in the future,[inshaAllah] as alot of Innovative practices [ie practice not approved by our beloved prophet, pbuh, ] will be eradicated, further this will help the muslim to UNITE...
Muslim should be grateful for the postion they are in... not only do they have the ability to excel and advance in being a nation with good moral, a nation that upheld family ties, and keeps close to kinship... they can take advantage of the technology that is being developed by such countries like Japan, India [and of course pple form such countries went to the US, to develop technology, where more capital is availble]...
not only this, the Islamic world [which mainly consits of "deveolping nations"] can learn from the mistakes of the [so-called] "developed nations"...such as the divide of the rich and pooor, the discrimnation is socierty, the high rates of crime, drugs, vice, the high rate of family break up, divorce....all of which are more prevalant in "the west"...
so this is sumthing that the muslim world can learn....
like Dubai [emirates]....uphelp Islamic value side by side with "western materilitic" value, the best of two worlds...
[sorry to write such along essay. boy im tired] newcomer i thouhg ur an orginal egyptian! and nevamind is an estii, right?
posted
Yes, "estii" is quite correct, dear our very reverend muslim illuminator on ES :)
The way I understand this surge of deep national/religious feelings now (happening more or less all over the world, by the way) is that it is development, yes, and is unavoidable like any stage of natural development is--you simply cannot jump over any stage, just have to bear with it--but it is not advancement. It is a backlash, like when you are not caucious and stretch a latex string too much, it may get out of hand and lash back. Globalisation and merging of cultures have happened too fast and, also, the "western" culture and values have been overadmired, without much ground i think, especially the coca-cola and MTV type of culture, but also the western overemphasis on material achievement above simple mental wellbeing. Of course the nations that still have and remember better sets of values feel threatened and strike back! But the way I've heard it, not-so-muslim egyptians use to say "oh, it used to much more free before", and their voices are nostalgic when they say it. No one likes more strict rules and limiting of personal liberty... that come with this new advancement of islam. Because essentially, nothing that is done out of feeling of revenge is essentially good nor even wise, right?
I think the "west" can help, we all can help by growingly appreciating and even admiring the different values and customs of the world the way we already love the different cuisines and they exist peacefully together in cities and we love them exactly because they've retained all their original characteristics, because they are DIFFERENT because different is interesting and enriching...
It is coming, esp. with change of generations who've travelled and got mixed education etc. but I really hope that the appreciation of other cultures and people will grow more quickly than the resentment of the "west" does, so the latter will have chance to peacefully melt into the former. Love!!!
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AND, BTW, best persuasion is not by force (never works for long-time and always backlashes, it is in human nature to defend freedom of will and oppose force) but best persuasion is by EXAMPLE. You cannot force, but you can always lock to.. . If islam values are so good, then show us islam people who make us want be like them, who make us really really envious of the kind of life they are living. Egypt has a long way to go on this road, but good potential Posts: 1051 | From: Menoufeya | Registered: Feb 2005
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I think the "west" can help, we all can help by growingly appreciating and even admiring the different values and customs of the world the way we already love the different cuisines and they exist peacefully together in cities and we love them exactly because they've retained all their original characteristics, because they are DIFFERENT because different is interesting and enriching...
Love!!![/B]
lol yes,sure this can happen... but only in "la-la" land....
u r right about the example... our prophet was the example, the Islamic golden era was the example...
as u sed it is like the "latex" [hmm] it comes back [is a better word to use rather than "backlash"]....this is just like history reeapting it self.....u pull, it snaps back, u pull it snap back.... [i like to imagine it as a sine curve]
im i forcing sumthin on to you that is not my style, my stile is to teach and educate, and let them decide
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by nevermind: If islam values are so good, then show us islam people who make us want be like them, who make us really really envious of the kind of life they are living. Egypt has a long way to go on this road, but good potential
Islam is your phopia ms Never..!and you seem to be an expert in the egyptian affairs and culture too..!
quote:Originally posted by salama: Islam is your phopia ms Never..!and you seem to be an expert in the egyptian affairs and culture too..!
Thank you salama . Actually, I'm just offering my best beliefs according to what I believe. The better knowing people can always step in and kindly restore the truth, if wish
I have nothing against islam specifically, but more like against all religions that try to force themselves on people. Christianity just does not bother me to such extent any more because is is really dying out and people really just choose it kind of automatically or because the church still offers the best kind of ceremonies. We humans just like heart-moving ceremonies with beautiful music, magnificent interiors and somebody fatherly telling wise words to us.
But since islam is a good 700 years younger, then I am a bit worried that if all things in the world usually develop along the same curve and kind of have to go through the same stages, does it mean then that islam is just about approaching its most ambitious and aggressive era, with things like inquisition, crusades etc etc. like it was the case with christianity at approximately 1300ies. Fair, of course, from the objective point of view, but otherwise.... brrrrr Huh?
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POEMS do not count. Please present facts, kkkaaa. Something someone can use as basis for a healthy intellectual decision. Sorry!
Posts: 1051 | From: Menoufeya | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by nevermind: POEMS do not count. Please present facts, kkkaaa. Something someone can use as basis for a healthy intellectual decision. Sorry!
LOL
u guna face the truth/fact soooner or later im jus tellin u da fact cos i enjoy telling the fact wether u accept or not is ur problem
[i cant b bothered to lay the facts now try lookin 4 it urself im sure if God Willed u to be on of the successfuls u wud sure find it] ...
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