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By Olivia Sterns for CNN November 11, 2009 -- Updated 1757 GMT (0157 HKT)
London, England (CNN) -- A growing number of Egyptian women are demanding a divorce and seeking counsel for their marriages, as the social stigma against it weakens and talking about relationship problems becomes more popular in the media.
Once considered taboo to discuss in public, private relationships between men and women are now the hot topic of television talk shows, radio programs and blogs. Mahasen Saber, host of Divorce Radio, says that her program is helping to break the stigma.
"People are shocked at first, but after they read and listen to what we write and present, they like what we talk about...they are happy because I am talking about something they are dealing with" Saber told CNN.
Earlier this year she launched the radio show to complement her blog called "I Want A Divorce."
In 2008 the number of Egyptian couples who divorced increased 8.4 percent over the previous year, according to the Central Agency for Public Mobilization and Statistics (CAPMAS).
In most cases couples simply don't know how to deal sexually with their partner
--Dr Heba Kotb, Egyptian sexologist Nearly 40 percent of marriages in Egypt now end in divorce, making it the highest rate in the Arab world. Egypt is also one of the few countries in the region where the topic is discussed so freely, thanks largely to the initiative of outspoken women.
"Women are taking advantage of new media outlets to voice their concern," said Nadya Khalife, a Human Rights Watch researcher focused on women's issues in the Middle East. "They are talking more openly about these issues. They are becoming less shameful in Egyptian society."
Those issues include sex. Dr. Heba Kotb is a leading sexologist in Cairo who appears regularly on TV. She has two PHD's, one in sexuality from the University of Florida, and she considers herself a conservative Muslim. Dr. Kotb attributes 80 percent of divorce in Egypt to sexual problems.
"In most cases couples simply don't know how to deal sexually with their partner," she told CNN. "I provide the information -- this is right, this is wrong, you should do this."
"Often it is just miscommunication. The psychology of men is not understood by women and vice versa."
When Dr. Kotb started her practice eight years ago, she saw only a handful of patients per week. Today she is booked months in advance. "People now think it does not have to be the end of the marriage when they have problems. [They think] it's worth it to give counseling a try."
For Egyptian women, getting divorced has traditionally carried with it a severe stigma. "The main perception of a woman who is divorced in Egypt, or in any Arab country, is that she is evil or something is not right ... that she has done something wrong" said Saber. "I started Divorce Radio to change that view."
"The stigma has nothing to do with religion. It's culture," said Madiha el Safty, professor of sociology at the American University in Cairo. "Egypt is a patriarchic society, very male-dominated. Men always blame women for all their problems, but the stigma [against divorced women] has eased"
"It has to do with the the rights of women. Now we have more rights -- in education, employment, we have more economic independence. So [women] are less willing to accept an unhappy marriage," Dr. Kotb told CNN.
Dr. Kotb also blamed the high rate of divorce on the fact that "a relationship equals marriage" in Egypt. "In the West, it's a matter of breaking up. Here there is no living together."
Saber agreed: "In Egypt, there is no space to have a relationship without marriage. It's the dream of every girl in Egypt to get married," she said.
In Egypt marriage falls under family law, which is based on Shari'a, Islamic religious law, and which gives men and women unequal rights to a divorce.
"In Islamic Shari'a, a man can divorce his wife at any time, in any place, and for any or no reason by simply uttering the following words: "I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you," explained Gabriel Sawma, an attorney specializing in Muslim divorce law and professor at Farleigh Dickinson University.
Women, on the other hand, can get a divorce only through court action, in a much more formal legal process.
In 2000, Egypt liberalized their laws, granting women the right to initiate a "no-fault" divorce (khula). Though this is considered a step forward, women are still required through khula to relinquish any claim to alimony or their dowry.
"There was an effort to modernize divorce," said Prof. Sawma. "Before, the man was not obligated to agree to a divorce."
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Before they get married, they should see what the other one expects of them, and then decide if it's resonsible and then there would be no problems.
Posts: 384 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by caringforwomen: Before they get married, they should see what the other one expects of them, and then decide if it's resonsible and then there would be no problems.
But that's the dilemma with any marriage. People do talk a lot and have different kind of expectations. Some are not able to express themselves properly and others are perhaps too intimidated upon meeting their future spouse to clear out all possible problems.
And what is mutually agreed on before can play out differently once you are married.
Also there are many people who tie the knot for all the wrong reasons.
Others like the idea of being married but they won't work hard enough to make it a healthy and lasting marriage.
In a country like Egypt engagement and marriage happens usually quite fast. It's like a business contract where two families are much more focused on financial aspects than anything else.
Let me give you a little example here: My good Egy friend got married within two months time - they only went out on several dates before she announced already her engagement to him. Then she rang me up and invited me for the wedding party - I almost fell off my chair!! She wasn't attracted to him but told me he comes from a good family (which equals to 'he got money'). She complained to me that he's wearing a moustache and doesn't like his selection of clothes. I told her once she's married she can look after the way he looks and dresses but she must be attracted to him. Well then they married and the first time I saw him in the church I thought to myself "He's cute!" and I found out he has an incredible funny personality. I introduced him to my future husband a few months afterwards and we went all out occassionally.
Alhamdulliah she fell for him and now they are married more than ten years with kids and happy - but it surely could have all played out differently. Btw, he kept his moustache!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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I agree with you somewhat, but you need to be able to express yourself properly and you can get over being intimidated. You can't get married just for financial security. Love and attraction need to be the only factors to a marriage. Marriage is not a business deal. You need to work at a relationship to keep it good. If you know what the problems are, then you can work on them. There's this column in Ladies Home Journal call "Can this Marriage be Saved?" Usually in the article, the counselor helps them work it out and they work it out and have a good marriage. My great-grandparents were married for 68 years, so they must have gotten something right.
Posts: 384 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by caringforwomen: I agree with you somewhat, but you need to be able to express yourself properly and you can get over being intimidated.
Well but people are people and they come in all different sizes and shapes.
Remember that many Egyptian women - depending on their social class - don't have proper interactions with the other gender besides the males in their own families unless it comes to selecting a lifetime partner for marriage.
quote:Originally posted by caringforwomen: You can't get married just for financial security. Love and attraction need to be the only factors to a marriage. Marriage is not a business deal. You need to work at a relationship to keep it good. If you know what the problems are, then you can work on them.
So true.
I just think the dilemma in these modern times is that people give up to easily on their vows. They wanna spend the good times together but when disaster strikes many of them look for the fastest way out. It is worse even when children are involved.
quote:Originally posted by caringforwomen: My great-grandparents were married for 68 years, so they must have gotten something right.
Beautiful. Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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I've never been to Egypt, only Canada, New Zealand, and some of the states. I don't know how everything works over there, but I know a little about Arab culture, only what I've heard and read. Since Egyptian women only interact with males from their own families, maybe a Imam could help prepare them for marriage. Just a thought. This Imam could do that in a proper setting set up by the parents the girl.
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^ Egyptian women don't only interact with males from their own families... many work, many have social lives and many are in further education.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I'm just going by what tigerlily said. She said they only interact with males from their own families, not other men out in the world, except when finding a partner for marriage and that they have problems relating to their husbands after they get married. They may work and have social lives and be in further education, but it looks like they aren't prepared for marriage.
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Well yeah that's why I said depending on their social class.
Egypt is infact mostly rural and therefore the people are very traditional there where most of the women don't work outside of the house, don't have a 'social life' as we foreigners viewing it and hence many of them don't have much education either or are even illiterate.
"13 November 2009 CAIRO: The illiteracy rate in Egypt decreased to 26 percent, a slight drop from last year, an official said earlier this week... Last year, Egypt's illiteracy rate was 27.3 percent, around 16.5 million people, said Saeed Abdel Gawad, head of GALAE, Cairo branch. Women account for 69 percent of the total number of illiterate people in Egypt, leaving men at 31 percent. Illiteracy is also more prevalent in rural areas than in urban areas."
For e.g. I visit Ain Shams University twice a week and there are many young people walking hand in hand and gazing into each others eyes... I can assure you they are not related lol. Romance here is not a myth and I can ASSURE you women DO interact with folk outside the family.
I am actually off to meet my friends for coffee now... if my male friends show up.. the more the merrier. They won't run away Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Well yeah you won't find Ain Shams University in rural areas but what I am talking about - you can't make a blind woman see, right, can you??
It's like with the trash issue where everyone told you Cairo's streets getting more and more dirty by the day and you said nonsense. Or the black cloud - what black cloud DUHHH??
You really need to get out of Cairo and frequently visit the villages and see how most Egyptians are still living in the end of the year 2009.
Don't confuse your little bubbly expat life with the lives of the ordinary Egyptians - they are not as half as (fake) happy as you are. Enjoy your coffee. Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Yup, still no rubbish here or the black cloud.... in fact my area is cleaner than ever with all the foreign VIPs coming in. As for the cloud... I saw it downtown and one night here... but I don't live by downtown but you wouldn't know that pmsl. I saw more smog and smoke in Luxor... but they were burning outside the hotel. But since we had some strong winds it is apparently a lot better. I say apparently as I haven't witnessed it yet.
Please don't humiliate yourself by trying to profess you know my streets and sky better than me!!! It would be a little silly of you.
As for rural areas, we do get out and about, we love the friendliness and social interactions. I also like how I get fed You should come to Egypt more often in general and stop using Google as your only term of reference.
Ah, fake happy. you haven't played that tune in a while lol...
Sorry to burst your bubble but I AM happy, totally and my life HERE in EGYPT is AWESOME... but hey, you wouldn't know that never meeting me
Pink bubble pmsl... if you only knew the half of it
Rural rural rural... are the major cities and towns all of a sudden irrelevant in all discussions. Perhaps the population is too low pmsl.
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Haha do you seriously believe the pollution is stopping right on the border of Heliopolis so it won't affect your health at all?? You think you are in safe haven? Think again.
Perhaps you don't have any health issues now but give it a few more years and you gonna feel it.
And of course your life in Egypt it's awesome. You live the good, the fat life as an expatriate (I remember how it was) and you don't have to take care of anything and anybody - infact you still live with your parents at 33 (just like an Egyptian girl lol) so of course there's nothing to complain about and everything is wonderful.
But unfortunately the regular Egyptians don't have this kind of life but eh I don't wanna repeat myself over and over again. It's time to bring a nice dish on the Tisch (table)!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Did I mention health, I thought we were talking visual sightings... sorry, my ESP is on the blink!!!
I had health issues in UK!!! But after being here and the middle east since my teens I think I am coping ok... thanks for the concern.
Who lives with her parents... you really do not keep up do you Get with the script. Not like you to miss out on updating the ferret file...
I lived the good life in the UK as well... I earn good money sweetie and don't rely on others to put food on my table But, no, nothing to complain about as I am not old, bitter or twisted
The folk who live in this good area have good lives as well, I am not going to apolgise for having the high life.
Even the poor folk in Heliopolis are rich!!! Oh well... shoot us for making something of our lives
Off to see my egyptian friends now darling naturally they are all realted pmsl.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by caringforwomen: I'm just going by what tigerlily said. She said they only interact with males from their own families, not other men out in the world, except when finding a partner for marriage and that they have problems relating to their husbands after they get married. They may work and have social lives and be in further education, but it looks like they aren't prepared for marriage.
Egyptian divorce rate is still exceedingly lower than it is for any western nation. So does that mean Egyptians are more prepared for marriage than any westerner?
You've never been to Egypt so you have nothing to develop an opinion by, you just don't have a clue.
Plenty of people are married for decades, my paternal grandparents were married for 60 years doesn't make any difference the duration. And my paternal grandfather beat his wife senseless every few weeks, but they still were married for 60 years....
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When almost half of Egypt's population is in Cairo thats equals the vast majority of Egypt's poor is urban.
I have been told countless of times its better to be poor in the country than it is to be poor in the city. By Egyptians.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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For e.g. I visit Ain Shams University twice a week and there are many young people walking hand in hand and gazing into each others eyes... I can assure you they are not related lol. Romance here is not a myth and I can ASSURE you women DO interact with folk outside the family.
I am actually off to meet my friends for coffee now... if my male friends show up.. the more the merrier. They won't run away
Just want to add my 10 pence worth....My husband is a graduate of Ain Shams, when he was there he had a couple of girlfriends, many of his friends met their spouses at University...he has a cousin who is 19 he has a girlfriend the same age they have been together two years, everyone knows about it, they come to family events together, she came to my wedding...I can give loads more examples...when my husband was starting out as a trainee engineer and still working in Egypt he went out with girls he met from work such as secretaries etc. In fact he claims he fell in love for the first time aged 12
From what I have seen, young people in Egypt are having similar experiences to anywhere else in the world. I'm not talking about sex, but of course that happens as well in some cases but I find this males and females don't interact hard to swallow because that's not what I've seen, granted my husband is from the same area in Cairo that Cheeky now lives but I don't believe that it's only the city folk who have these experiences
There was an incident very recently in Egypt, in Assyut County where a christian boy was having a relationship with a muslim girl, he had apparenty taken photos of her naked on his phone and showed them to people, the girls family got to hear about this and riots were started which resulted in the boys father being executed as they could not find the boy. I dont have a link but I'm sure it can easily be found on google
This happened in the "countryside" so clearly people are getting involved with the opposite sex. This is an extreme case because it involves religion as well but it's a good example as any
Posts: 500 | From: United Arab Emirates | Registered: Jul 2008
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For e.g. I visit Ain Shams University twice a week and there are many young people walking hand in hand and gazing into each others eyes... I can assure you they are not related lol. Romance here is not a myth and I can ASSURE you women DO interact with folk outside the family.
I am actually off to meet my friends for coffee now... if my male friends show up.. the more the merrier. They won't run away
Well said Ferret. Tigerlily the one and only copy and paste queen of ES.
Tigerlily if we need info we know where to find it Thanks!! You dont need to copy and paste on ES all the time !!! It becomes boring and people dont really bother with it.I think you are wasteing your time.There is only so Much people can take!! Posts: 1048 | From: If you are given a blessing you may be envied | Registered: Oct 2008
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Come down to Zamalek's nile corniche and see them sitting for hours holding hands or walking up and down Abul Feda and Gabalaya streets, or pecking under the October bridge, all coming from rural Cairo.. summer or winter night and day..it just doesn't matter.
This has been going on since I've learnt about the birds and the bees..we're talking like 5 decades.
Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Come down to Zamalek's nile corniche and see them sitting for hours holding hands or walking up and down Abul Feda and Gabalaya streets, or pecking under the October bridge, all coming from rural Cairo.. summer or winter night and day..it just doesn't matter.
This has been going on since I've learnt about the birds and the bees..we're talking like 5 decades.
In Alex the Qaitbay castle is the spot.
And 5 decades Dzosser? Really? They hadn't invented the birds and bees yet when you were born. They were still working on the invention of the wheel and fire. Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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Originally posted by Clear and QSY: And 5 decades Dzosser? Really? They hadn't invented the birds and bees yet when you were born. They were still working on the invention of the wheel and fire.
Whatever they called it back then, sure made our population grow 4 times as much.. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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Egyptian filmmaker Ahmed Khaled has produced a courageous film about sexuality in the Egypt. But the film can't be shown. Sonja Zekri reports
Just under a quarter of an hour is a good length for a provocation. It's just 14 minutes and 20 seconds from the point of origin to the end of the line in an empty, air-conditioned, darkened long-distance bus, and a man and a woman take advantage of the opportunity to do something they can do no place else: a furtive exchange of stolen glances and tender caresses – observed with mistrust in the rear-view mirror.
At the end of the trip, the man presses money into the driver's hand. Two Egyptian pounds per ticket, and another pound to buy the driver's silence: "The Fifth Pound" is the name of this short film by Ahmed Khaled.
Sex, religion, and compromise
The director shows the film on a laptop computer, because it is hardly ever seen on a large screen. It reveals too much of what Egyptian society would prefer to keep hidden: sex and religion and the compromises young people make with regard to both.
Khaled's studio is in a side street in downtown Cairo where the metropolis takes on aspects of the rural countryside: donkeys pulling carts laden with mountains of fruit, moped repair shops, asphalt streets in various states of repair, where everyone knows everyone else.
And yet, here Khaled can do as he pleases. So far, at least, one should say – because if developments in Egypt continue as expected, if the Moslem Brotherhood that is now secretly attempting to come to power one day manages to achieve its goal, then the slim, trustful 30-year-old with the elegant sideburns will no longer have much to laugh about.
And he will certainly not be allowed to make the kind of films he wants to make.
The route between Gizeh and the airport
It was hard enough already. Khaled had to lie to the director of the transport company, telling him he was making a film about a couple on its way to a holiday trip. "Oh, he said, I just hope you're not going to make a film about sex on our busses. I said, Sex on the bus? Never heard of such a thing...", he reports.
But the most provocative aspect of his film is precisely the fact that in reality, everyone has heard of such a thing – "the route between Gizeh and the airport was notorious" – and friends even told him they would probably be forced to look for another refuge.
But the worst thing of all, the unpardonable aspect of the film, is not the bleakness of the stolen kisses, and not the fact that the couple chooses a Friday morning for its tryst, when good Moslems are expected to be in the mosque, and not even the fact the driver, while listening to cassette tapes of the Koran, fantasizes about being in the young man's place.
Most outrageous of all is the fact that the young girl is wearing a headscarf. A woman who wears a veil and yet allows herself to be touched by a man – the very idea flies in the face of every conviction and belief regarding dress codes and morality. And that is precisely what is intended.
"So much hypocrisy"
"Women with veils are good, and all other women are bad – what nonsense!" Khaled says with scorn. A female attorney has already threatened to take him to court. At a screening of the film in the Russian Center, someone heckled the film, saying such conditions didn't exist in Egypt.
"There are so many prevalent lies in this country, so many taboos, so much hypocrisy," Khaled says. "They must be broken down."
Khaled knows first-hand what that means in a society that has access to satellite television and avidly consumes lascivious belly-dancing videos along with the breathtaking window displays of Cairo's lingerie boutiques, and yet in which the Al-Ashar Mosque just recently issued recommendations on the most effective sex practices to ensure pregnancy.
"Maybe it's all just fiction," he suggests slyly. But that's merely an attempt to defend himself.
The wrong audience
Egypt is home to the largest film industry in the Arabian world; cinemas from Casablanca to Kuwait show films that originate on the River Nile. But most Arabs have only heard of "The Fifth Pound" from reading newspaper articles. Khaled never presented the film to the censors, and as a result it has no distributor and has only been screened at a few festivals.
The University of Oxford recommends it as a source document for Middle Eastern anthropology, but that's not exactly the audience Khaled had hoped to reach.
It's his first cinema film. Previously he had produced videos – one about the ecstatic frenzy of a religious festival, and one about protests against the Iraq war. That film was more critical of Egypt than it was anti-American, which led the director of a youth center to tell him. "It will be thirty years before this film can be shown."
Turning to high-risk subjects
He has been asked to make a film about Gamal Mubarak, the son of Egypt's president, but people have long since started wondering why this well educated young man from a family of journalists continually turns to high-risk subjects, and above all, how long he can keep at it.
He experienced Islamist artistic training first hand at the Conservatory for Fine Arts in Heluan. It was not the best education imaginable: too academic, too old-fashioned, with access neither to the work of Hopper nor that of Pollock, just a little Renaissance at best.
"Deformation of the imagination"
"And the in 90s an Islamist group turned up and began putting pressure on the students. Some of my friends quit coming to drawing courses because images of people had suddenly been declared ‘haram' – sin," he recalls. This "deformation of the imagination" enraged him, and when he speaks of the Moslem Brotherhood, he uses a forbidden English word that begins with "F" and expresses a great sense of powerlessness.
"What can I achieve with my art? Compared with a bullet – nothing," he says. And because he's in a Wild-West kind of mood, he adds, "Them or me. We'll see."
We will indeed. Already, however, his enthusiasm is getting him into trouble. In an interview with a private broadcasting company, the subject of the cartoon brouhaha came up, and Khaled tried to make a point that he now repeats, namely that the cartoons were repulsive to him, because they are insulting, but that they were not nearly as repulsive to him as the reactions against them.
"The Egyptian newspaper Al-Fagr had printed the images four months earlier and no one got upset about them. But then the bird flu came, the soccer championships, the elections – and all hell broke loose. Every country had a different excuse for the riots; they are not honest, not civilized. It was the worst showing we could possibly have given."
That was what he would like to have said, but the show's host cut him off. So far, the attempts to silence Ahmed Khaled have remained peaceful.
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Want to divorce? In Cairo, the radio offers women help
"Divorce is permitted but it is the thing most despised by Allah," the Muslim Hadith, or oral law, states. "When security disappears in married life, and serenity is not accessible, then it is time to do the thing most despised by Allah." That is the slogan adopted by Divorcees' Radio, founded by Mahasen Saber, with the help of 25 volunteers in Egypt.
The online radio station aims to empower divorced women in the Arab countries and improve their status. Saber told Al-Arabiya Television she got the idea for the radio station because of her workplace experience following her divorce. "They told me that from now on, as I was divorced, my situation was sensitive, and it would be better if I did not move around where there were men in the office," she said.
The first broadcasts brought sharp criticism from men, who charged the station's purpose was to instruct women how to rebel against men. Saber overcome the charge by adding programs about divorced men and children who living in single-parent families.
Saber says she was married for three years and spent a great part of them in the courts in an attempt to get her divorce. Even before she established the radio station, she initiated a protest of women outside the Egyptian parliament calling for changes in the personal status law. Under the existing law, a woman can demand a divorce but is likely to lose in her property and the dowry paid for her.
Saber started writing a blog in which she published advice for women on how to conduct a divorce campaign legally and provided a platform for women to express their frustration with their marriages. The blog, and later the radio station, attracted thousands of responses from all the Arab countries, she says.
The data published by some of the Arab countries shows the divorce rate ranges from 24 percent (in Saudi Arabia) to 35 percent (in Qatar). As usual, the religious sages place the blame for this on permissiveness and the lack of suitable religious instruction.
This widespread phenomenon comes up against a strict legal system that tries to prevent divorce by severely damaging the woman's rights. Just seeing the remarks of some of the surfers about the opening of the radio station reveals how far a woman who wishes to divorce in an Arab country has to go to get legal rights or even respected status in society.
"Instead of opening a radio station for divorced women, it would have been proper to examine why these women get divorced in the first place," one Arab woman wrote. "A woman cannot live without a husband and whoever claims otherwise has no idea what he is talking about."
A surfer from Morocco wrote: "You present all men as if they were animals. But don't forget that women play a greater part in the game with others' feelings. They show their love for the man via the Messenger only in order to get economic benefits from them."
Interestingly, the most advanced women's rights law among the Arab countries was legislated in Morocco in 2004; it gives women the right to get divorced - with defined restrictions but without losing their property. It obliges men who divorce their wives to pay them their part of the property and does not make do with an oral promise but demands actual payment before the divorce is approved.
When this law was being discussed in the Moroccan parliament, a Muslim sage said that "there are men who cannot make do with only one woman and therefore they must be granted the right to marry additional women." The interior minister responded: "If he can't manage with only one woman, let him go get medical treatment."
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