posted
The population is probally somewhere in Assuit or perhaps Beni Suef. My belief is that many Coptics are mixed with Greco-Roman mercenaries that settled various parts of Middle and Upper Egypt. During the late Greco-Roman period the customary procedure was to allow foreign soliders from other provinces to settle this land. Most of this was around Faiyum,El-Minya,and other regions. You will often find though that many of these light skinned Copts have kinky hair or wide lips. http://www.copts.net/photos.asp You will see lighter types also. Al-Kosheh is located around Sohag.
Here is a picture of a Coptic rapper from Toronto:
As I have mentioned before, Copts are found in all parts of Egypt, and those in Luxor to Aswan area are indeed very brown complexioned, just as are their Muslim compatriots in that part of Egypt. Farther north, you will find lighter complexioned Copts, and again Muslims also. In the Cairo area, they tend to be very light complexioned. That, as with the rest of the Egyptian population has led to the confusing remarks Most sincerely, Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago -- Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
These photos are perhaps from Mallawi in Middle Egypt. Itīs bad that majority of photos from Egypt on internet is from tourist areas: Luxor-Aswan, Cairo-pyramides, Saqqara, Sinai, Hurghada, sometimes Delta, but as for Middle Egypt, there is a big break, despite the fact that this area is very vast and important, because there lives a lot of baladi people and I think that for the most part they are not a descendants of Persians, Syrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc.
Posts: 653 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Well,the Coptics are not exactly pure desendants of the ancient Egyptian as they propose. I still have problems with many claiming so because of the desruction that many brought to Egypt. Just reciting history that has been written that many Greeks,Romans,and yes Syrian mercenaries settled there. In the Greco-Roman period also many Jews also lived around Luxor to Aswan with the normal people.
Also I have yet to hear an explanation why Coptics if really the true desendants of the ancient Egyptians would destoy monuments of their ancestors. Fellahin in any region from the Delta to Aswan have yet to destoy any monument of their ancestors. I don't just base this off their unusually Syrian phneotype. ask Dr. Sadaadawi about the Coptic havoc on the Sa3eadi.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
It depends what do you mean by the word "Copts" because as far as I know majority of the Copts are also Fellaheen and they are not really different their muslim neighbours.So, for example these people from Mallawi are not more or less light than other inhabitant of this town.I know that a statements of some alleged Copts like "Pelyas" or "Egyptiangurl" such as "We are direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians! We are white mediterrean caucasoids(all)! We are not black! The ancient Egypties were not black!" are unacceptable simplifications and distortions but opposite statements of afrocentrists like "Wally" such as "We are related with the ancient Egyptians! We are black! The ancient Egyptians were also black!" are alike unacceptable. I know that there were some foreign elemnts from the Europe and the Asia in antiquity but I think that they had not big impact on the egyptian population. In any case, I think that disputation if this or that Egyptian is "pure" or "mixed" is fairly futile. Certainly, you have right to say that the Upper Egyptians from Luxor or Aswan are pure descendants of the ancient Egyptians but itīs a little futile to say it again and again in a circle.
posted
The designation I use my skpeticism of Coptics being pure has not always based on their complexion. I know the history of the instruction of Christainty in Middle and Upper Egypt. Are you familar with this history? Are you also aware many foreigners lived in Middle Egypt particulary the regions of Faiyum,El Minya,and other parts?
Even some sa3eadi in Luxor to Aswan have slightly mixed with some bedouin Arabic probally either out of force or through some intermarriage.
I don't agree with Egyption girl's or Wally's perpectives.
The word Coptic refers to all Egyptians,and comes from Aegytus in Greek. The Kemetians called themselves Rmt N Kmt or simply Kammau.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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They are lighter than people from Upper Egypt but they are clearly different from Southern Europeans and even Syrians. They have relatively distinct mediterrean appearance but darker skin and probably some negroid elements.altogether, in Egypt, there are few light-skinned people, mainly because of local climate. One Egyptian who I know said me it too(but himself is rather light-skinned).
[This message has been edited by Ayazid (edited 20 December 2004).]
They are lighter than people from Upper Egypt but they are clearly different from Southern Europeans and even Syrians. They have relatively distinct mediterrean appearance but darker skin and probably some negroid elements.altogether, in Egypt, there is light-skinned people, chiefly because of local climate. One Egyptian who I know said me it too(but himself is rather light-skinned).
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Keda kwayyis: Altogether, in Egypt, there is few light-skinned people, chiefly because of local climate. One Egyptian who I know said me it too(but himself is rather light-skinned).
quote: opposite statements of afrocentrists like "Wally" such as "We are related with the ancient Egyptians! We are black! The ancient Egyptians were also black!" are alike unacceptable. I know that there were some foreign
I wasn't even going to participate in this "Tour Egypt and View the Copts" slide show, but somehow my name was thrown in, for good measure I suspect I rankled someone's sensitivity. (More slides!) Aside from an uninformed classification of me as an "Afrocentrist"(is this label supposed to magically render meaningless the words and images left to us from the Ancient Egyptians that I present), I also do not enjoy people attributing to me things I never said. And one can care less if the views of the Ancient Egyptians are acceptable or not. It's what they wrote.
quote: I don't agree with...Wally's perpectives.
The word Coptic refers to all Egyptians,and comes from Aegytus in Greek. The Kemetians called themselves Rmt N Kmt or simply Kammau.
Again, even Ausar with the MY perspectives business, and yet expressing the exact same information above that is on my website http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo
posted
I know very well what people around the Faiyum look like. However,lots of mixing with Greeks and Romans occured around these regions. You can't deny this because marriages between Greeks are well documented in written contracts. Every where in Egypt there was a Greek settlement were allowed to intermingle except for places like Naucratis and Alexzandria,which was forbidden.
Here are some references:
One old man with long hair and a white beard ,who had been a member of the local community of foreign Christains which had established itself near the temple of Philae,is the oldest example and one of the best illustrations of a case of gout;enormous whitish concretions of urate of lime had gathered on his feet,especially round his big toe and also at the ankle ,while chalky ,masses could still be seen deforming his knee-caps and ankles.
page 43
Ange-Pierre Leca: The Egyptian Way of Death: Mummies and the Cult of the Immortal Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, 1981. Reveals the beliefs, techniques and rituals comprising the elaborate process of mummification. 292 pages
Arab colonization began with the conquest ,and was encouraged by the Ummayyad Caliphs,notably by Hisham[reigned 724-43],who in 727 authorized the planned migration and settlement of several thousand Arabs of the Yemenite tribe of Qays in the Nile Valley. During the eight century and ninth century large numbers of Arab tribesmen,mainly of Yemenite origin,migrate to Egypt,where many of them settled on land. page 457
Harris, J R, ed. (1971) The legacy of Egypt. Oxford
In addition to roman high officals,occupying the important administrative posts in Alexzandria and in the larger towns,and to more numerous mirrior functionannes,one must also distinguish from the indigenous populations the Greeks,established in Egypt before the Ptolomies,and the war veterns. often of diverse origins to whom lands had been granted . Some of these latter,at Faiyum or Antione,may have been Romans;others ---as for example ;at Ahnas El medinehin Upper Egypt--originally came from Palmyra. All brought with them their own customs ,and doubtless their own relgions,which can be idenitfied ,even when became intergrated with the relgions of the country,as is evident at Ahnas El Medineh;
1. E. Drioton 'Art syrien et art copte;B.S.A.C. III 1937 ,pp 29-40
page 72 Du Bourguet, Pierre M., The Art of the Copts. Art of the World series, New York, Crown Publishers, 1971.
He did not resemble her . One of the grandfathers of Ommohamed's husband,Abd el Bastet ,came not from the ancient stock of the Nile fellaheen,ut was an Arabian bedouin from fierce and wild hore---men who lived out on the sands and rock far east of the Nile,surviving by herding,carrying goods by camel,and,in lean times,by plundering and killing. There was also ancient race hatred between the Fellaheen,as ''diggers of the soil;and these desert marauders. But Khalifa,Shahhat's grandfather,after a bloody falling out with his tribe ,had come to thge valley with a string of camels ,sold them for land ,married and settled down. He eventually prospered and bought ten acres ,one of which Abd El Bastet had inherited from his father.
The mile-wide necropolis falls mostly within the present village of Qurna,inhabited by the desendants of Horobat warrior who have arrived to settle there in the thirteenth century as tomb robbers,an occupation many still follow.
page XXIII
Shahhat,an Egyptian by Richard Critchfield
The mile-wide necropolis falls mostly within the present village of Qurna,inhabited by the desendants of Horobat warrior who have arrived to settle there in the thirteenth century as tomb robbers,an occupation many still follow.
page XXIII
Shahhat,an Egyptian by Richard Critchfield
From the cemetary at Mallawi [near Beni Suef] which was once the location of a Roman garrison. Page 45
Rosalie David Handbook to Life in Ancient Egypt
___Could explain why there are people who look like Pope Shenouda.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
The original Arabs come from Himyar which is in Yemen. Most Horobot look darker than even the average Arabs because their ancestors have mixed in with indigenous SFellahin.
Intermarriage between Greeks,Romans,and Syrians with Egyptians is documented in the book Egypt After the Pharoahs by Alan K Bowman. The children of these unions would often take the Egyptian name. I am not implying that this had a big genetic effect on the entire Egyptian population but I would be lying to say this never happened when it was well documented mixture between Greeks and Egyptians in Lower and Middle Egypt.
Even Jews lived amung people in parts of Upper Egypt. Elephantine had a whole settlement of them prior to even the Greeks or Romans arriving.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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You are perhaps GREAT expert at the ancient Egyptians, but I have question: Do you know personally ANY contemporary Egyptian?
I don't quite get the jest of your question, but not only have I known personally some Egyptian brothers (whom I initially thought to be from Louisiana and not from Egypt), and over the years I have not only known but have been close friends with individuals from Ethiopia, Somali, Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia. I also once knew a family from Yemen, who treated me as part of their own family. Unfortunately, they moved their business back to the eastern United States and we lost contact...
"I known personally some Egyptian brothers (whom I initially thought to be from Louisiana and not from Egypt)."
Really? Well ... I know some "Egyptian brothers" but they donīt look very much like majority of people from Louisiana (I think that you want to say they are "black"). Of course, they are rather from Lower Egypt. Only one is from Upper Egypt, from Sohag, and he is dark. A light-skinned Egyptian is perhaps not your "brother".The Egyptians consider themselves to be "asmar" = brown and not black.Only really aboriginal black people in Egypt are among Nubians, the rest is dark-skinned, brown, but not black.My mother is white European and father is black African from Guinea-Bissau but I donīt consider myself to be "black". I am dark-skinned,I have kinky hair and broader nose but I am not "black".
"Over the years I have not only known but have been close friends with individuals from Ethiopia, Somali, Nigeria, Ghana, Liberia. I also once knew a family from Yemen, who treated me as part of their own family."
Ethiopians, Somalis,Nigerians, Ghanians, Liberians or Yemenis are not Egyptians.I am speaking about EGYPT and EGYPTIANS! By the way, these Yemenis were your "black brothers" or rather mediterrean,arab-looking?
"Even Jews lived amung people in parts of Upper Egypt. Elephantine had a whole settlement of them prior to even the Greeks or Romans arriving."
Yes, itīs good example, because they had not any evident impact on the aboriginal opulation which is up to the present dark-skinned and clearly different from people in Syria and Palestine. I think taht similar situation was in all Egypt, even in Delta. Everywhere were foreigners onåy minority and 90% and more were Egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by Ayazid: ...My mother is white European and father is black African from Guinea-Bissau but I donīt consider myself to be "black". I am dark-skinned,I have kinky hair and broader nose but I am not "black".
You are, without doubt, a very confused individual...
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Can we please put this to rest?
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Keino
unregistered
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ayazid: Originally posted by Wally:
"I known personally some Egyptian brothers (whom I initially thought to be from Louisiana and not from Egypt)."
Really? Well ... I know some "Egyptian brothers" but they donīt look very much like majority of people from Louisiana (I think that you want to say they are "black"). Of course, they are rather from Lower Egypt. Only one is from Upper Egypt, from Sohag, and he is dark. A light-skinned Egyptian is perhaps not your "brother".The Egyptians consider themselves to be "asmar" = brown and not black.Only really aboriginal black people in Egypt are among Nubians, the rest is dark-skinned, brown, but not black.My mother is white European and father is black African from Guinea-Bissau but I donīt consider myself to be "black". I am dark-skinned,I have kinky hair and broader nose but I am not "black".[/QUOTE
From you description you sound like you are black to me with European heritage. No one is really black, just a dark brown colour. When Americans and western people of african descent describe themselves as black they don't literally mean they are Black. It means that they people of African descent. Many range from olive to dark chocolate. My family is a fine example of this because my sister is almost the same colour as my white girlfriend with green eyes and very kinky hair, yet she is black. I am medium brown with dark brown eyes and kinky hair yet I am black and have been mistaken for Ethiopian as well as Egyptian. However, I am not trying to define you, you have to define yourself. This does not, however, evade your genetic make up as well as the fact of how the world views you. I really appreciate all of the picture posts.. Thanks alot.
[This message has been edited by Keino (edited 01 March 2004).]
You are, without doubt, a very confused individual...
Itīs a joke??? Can you please explain your definition of the word "black"?? And where is my dear "brother" an answer on my question??:
Ethiopians, Somalis,Nigerians, Ghanians, Liberians or Yemenis are not Egyptians.I am speaking about EGYPT and EGYPTIANS! By the way, these Yemenis were your "black brothers" or rather mediterrean,arab-looking?
"From you description you sound like you are black to me with European heritage."
I live in the Czech republic. The czech people are quite white Northern Europeans. They consider me black, because for them is difficult to tell apart black person and mulatto. I think that similar situation was in USA with "The One-Drop Rule". I am definitely not black with European heritage because my mother is white and itīs not only "heritage". Even, the majority of so called "blacks" in USA is not really black, I mean like sub-saharan Africans.
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ayazid:''The Egyptians consider themselves to be "asmar" = brown and not black.Only really aboriginal black people in Egypt are among Nubians, the rest is dark-skinned, brown, but not black.My mother is white European and father is black African from Guinea-Bissau but I donīt consider myself to be "black". I am dark-skinned,I have kinky hair and broader nose but I am not "black".''
Ausar responds: Be careful because many Northern Sudanese and Southern Upper Egyptians are barely distiugisable. Many Egyptians living above Aswan are sometimes even darker than Nubians are. Look for example at Mohammed Mounir who is a Nubian who probally has some Arab or European admixture in him.
Asmar can refer to many shades of people and sometimes even refers to Nubians. The only literally black people in Africa are the Dinka that live in Southern Sudan or some groups in Central Africa.
Black people in Upper Egypt have been indigenous since at least 5600 B.C. or perhaps much earlier than this.
Just like many Egyptians call Nubians iswad;many also call Syrian Arabs shamy. Understand this was the case in both ancient and modern times.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
My, my... Sometimes common sense can often times be uncommon... The social/scientific expression "Black people" or "Black race" does not describe an absolute color for this particular racial grouping! We are not discussing complexion here. The reddish brown complexion of Nelson Mandela does not make him any less of a member of the Black racial group than say a Dinka man. The reddish yellow complexion of the Khoisan people of South Africa/Namibia does not exclude them from this Black racial grouping either. The Ancient Egyptians even codified this rather simple reality with their ethnographical documentations.
Black people describes a specific grouping of peoples who share common chracteristics, the most notable of which is, besides colorations, a particular personality. Perhaps sometimes things are too obvious.
Black people describes a specific grouping of peoples who share common chracteristics, the most notable of which is, besides colorations, a particular personality
[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 01 March 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Black people describes a specific grouping of peoples who share common chracteristics, the most notable of which is, besides colorations, a particular personality.
Huh? So are you saying blacks share the same personality traits?
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Huh? So are you saying blacks share the same personality traits?
Bingo!!! There IS such a thing as a Black or African personality. Just as there is such a thing as a European or Asian personality. Just look at this Asian American site, for example, to see the awareness of this universal reality: http://goldsea.com/Air/Issues/Traits/traits_20710.html
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Bingo!!! There IS such a thing as a Black or African personality. Just as there is such a thing as a European or Asian personality. Just look at this Asian American site, for example, to see the awareness of this universal reality: http://goldsea.com/Air/Issues/Traits/traits_20710.html
OH ... so,in accordance with your definition of the word "black", we have same personality(!!!). HA HA HA, itīs a good JOKE!!!
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Bingo!!! There IS such a thing as a Black or African personality. Just as there is such a thing as a European or Asian personality. Just look at this Asian American site, for example, to see the awareness of this universal reality: http://goldsea.com/Air/Issues/Traits/traits_20710.html
Wally I think you are kinda off on this point. Groups (in this case racial) may share similar views on life and some general characteristics but this is probably due to cultural commonality. Genetics do play a role, but environment plays a big role as well. I think I know where you are trying to go but there is many variability within groups to solely isolate it to "race". However, do not totally dismiss what Wally has said because the brain is the organ of the mind! Our personality does not exists in some magical place. Actually the precise part of the brain where personality exists is the Temporal and frontal cortex. Damage to these areas cause BIG personality changes. Just as the heart, skeletal muscles, lung, and skin can be suceptable to genetic/inhereted diseases and are very slightly different from group to group (not necessarily race)so can the brain. Some black groups(many west africans) and white groups (many germans and russians have more dark/glycolytic skeletal muscle fibers than others groups which give them advantages in power and fastness. On the other hand some black groups (east Africans) and some white groups (northern europeans) have more light/aerobic fibers which give them advantages in long distance running and endurance. These genetic differences in muscle fibers are not limited to any one race; they can be isolated to different groups and sometimes that can mean the same "race". Just as we have these genetic differences that cause differences in other organs, we can also have the same thing with the brain. The problem with the brain is that it is so complex and that there is very little known about the functioning of the brain. We as scientist are basically at the begining of understanding the brain. My point is that these difference is not exculsive to race, environment plays an important role.
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I used t believe that socialisation played the major role in personality development, however after spending time in different counties and with different people I believe that some major traits are inate. But I agree with you kem that environment may play a major part in the development of these genetic traits. I also believe that Language is a major contibuter to the way we think. Languages are structured differently and can stimulate and structure thought processes as well as establish responce patterns. This is why AE language interests me. It can tell us a lot about not only the way they thought but also the way they reponded to life. Its unfortunate I have found glyphs difficuult and hard to understand. Could this be because of my socialisation, and traind thought patterns?
Just a thought!
Posts: 448 | From: Australian living in Spain | Registered: Aug 2003
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In its broadest sense, the African Personality speaks to African people's cultural idiosyncrasy as distinct from non-African peoples. Edward Wilmot Blyden (1832-1912) used the term as far back as 1883 in a speech titled, The Origin and Purpose of African Colonization to the Young Men's Literary Association of Sierra Leon (Esedebe 1982, 36). Marcus Garvey (1887-1935) popularized the concept to the African masses in the Americas, Europe, and Africa through his organization, the Universal Negro Improvement Association and African Community Leagues and their organs, Negro World (1918-1933), Daily Negro Times (1922-1924), Blackman (1929-1931), the Black man magazine (1933-1939) (Esedebe 1982, 67; Lewis 1988, 80-83). Both of these Caribbean-born Africans were somewhat condescending in referential language when referring to Africans on the African continent. Through the passage of time, however, both discovered and projected the splendors of African achievement. Both ideologues were also drenched in a racial analysis, which is understandable given the social order of their geographical origin and upbringing.
These two points distinguish this older usage from the way it was employed by Nkrumah. The change was more one of degree rather than kind. For Nkrumah this personality was still a distinct reflection of a distinct people but that distinction was based on synthesis of heterogeneous traditions and external impacts on a composite culture as opposed to a biological race. Nkrumah also held traditional values and methods in higher esteem than the external impacts imposed on the African continent."
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How does any of ths relate to Egypt? You know Egyptians both ancient and modern have different personalities that are sometimes streotyped by region. Being a Sa3eadi most people think we are very backwards and quick to react to a fight. I mean I have read on other websites that Greeks make certain handgestures different from other people,and I assume the same is true for ancient and modern Egyptians. Trying to establish certain traits or characteristics to racial groups is treading in the same terrirtory as the scienitfic racist who believe negative things about all non-whites.
Please let's get back on topic!!!
Wally,can you contribute something to discussion about ancient Kmt without reverting into race? I understand this is an important focus and hotly debate elsewhere,but it is getting redundant. Egypt is more than just race,but a collective of people that exist both in antiquity and in the modern world.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 03 March 2004).]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: How does any of ths relate to Egypt? You know Egyptians both ancient and modern have different personalities that are sometimes streotyped by region. Being a Sa3eadi most people think we are very backwards and quick to react to a fight. I mean I have read on other websites that Greeks make certain handgestures different from other people,and I assume the same is true for ancient and modern Egyptians. Trying to establish certain traits or characteristics to racial groups is treading in the same terrirtory as the scienitfic racist who believe negative things about all non-whites.
Please let's get back on topic!!!
Wally,can you contribute something to discussion about ancient Kmt without reverting into race? I understand this is an important focus and hotly debate elsewhere,but it is getting redundant. Egypt is more than just race,but a collective of people that exist both in antiquity and in the modern world.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 03 March 2004).]
I just luuv this forum!
This particular thread began with a 'photo-op' discussion, back and forth between Ayazid and Ausar, about the colors(racial attributes) of the Egyptians, but it didn't become a discussion of 'race' until I chimed in, steering it into a...
Just what is it about "the African personality" that y'all don't understand? (One of the worst insults you can make about anyone is to say that they don't have a personality.)
Every living creature on this earth has a personality. Individuals, groups, social classes, cultures, ethnic groups, nations, species, all have distinct personalities. The human race has a distinct personality. This is not only scientific objective reality, its just plain common sense which we observe constantly. And you don't throw out the baby (science) with the bath water (prejudice). Because someone may say that the French, for example, have a rude personality shouldn't negate the fact that their is a French personality. Ever hear of French culture? Or Japanese culture? 'culture' is simply a euphemism for 'personality.' This isn't rocket science.
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'culture' is simply a euphemism for 'personality ?
You seem to not be grasping the extent of the word "culture". To call it euphemism for personality is to strangle the word and void its meaning, do you actualy think bout what you write before you type, or did you read it on one of the sites you vist?
Ozzy
Posts: 448 | From: Australian living in Spain | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ozzy: 'culture' is simply a euphemism for 'personality ?
You seem to not be grasping the extent of the word "culture". To call it euphemism for personality is to strangle the word and void its meaning, do you actualy think bout what you write before you type, or did you read it on one of the sites you vist?
Ozzy
Like I said, I just luuv this forum!!! Here for the genuinely interested is further erudition on the word "Personality": "the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual or a nation or group; especially : the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional characteristics"
And for the non-erudite sarcastic:
"Culture-: the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group..." Mirriam-Webster online dictionary (or any dictionary that explains English words for that matter)
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 03 March 2004).]
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