I was reviwing a few studies and noticed some intersteing patterns among NW Africans TYPICALLY (I realize this is a broad region with variation on the micro level). NW Africans have Y Chromosomes (male lineages) that emerge from Holocene (recent epoch) Sub-Saharan East Africa at a rate of about 75%. About 20% of their male lineages emerge from Holocene Eurasia. Typically about 70% of the mtDNA (female lineages) in NW Africa come from Holocene Eurasia and about about 30% from Sub-Saharan East and West Africa (M1 and L lineages). U6, which is of Upper Paleolithic origin (and hence not associated with modern phena) occurs in pooled NW African groups at about 15%. So in a broad sense one might say that NW Africa contributed male lineages to SW Europe and SW Europe contributed female lineages to NW Africa. In this light, the following article may be of interest: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040310-115506-8528r.htm
A million Europeans enslaved
REUTERS NEWS AGENCY An American historian says that more than a million Europeans were enslaved by North African slave traders between 1530 and 1780, a time of vigorous Mediterranean and Atlantic coastal piracy. The number of white European slaves is only a fraction of the trade that brought 10 million to 12 million black African slaves to the Americas over a 400-year period, historian Robert Davis says, but his research shows the slave trade was more widespread than commonly assumed. The impact on Europe's white population was significant. "One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature — that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true," said Mr. Davis, an Ohio State University professor. "Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland." In a new book, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800," Mr. Davis calculates that between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by pirates called "corsairs" and forced to work in North Africa during that period. The raids were so aggressive that entire Mediterranean seaside towns were abandoned by frightened residents. "Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe. "Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear." The pirates, sailing from such cities as Tunis and Algiers, raided ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children, he says. They were put to work in quarries, in heavy construction and as oarsmen in the pirates' galleys. Mr. Davis calculated his estimates using records that indicate how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed. "It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available
As late as 1847, Senator Charles Sumner was lecturing on "White Slavery in the Barbary States" and "redemption socities" were still trying to rescue white Christian women from North African harems..."
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One has to think about Berber in the same way that one thinks about Bantu.
On the southern cape there are now mixed ethnicities who speak Bantu languages. It's possible that in a few more centuries there may be entire ethnic groups with unique phenotypes speaking unique Bantu languages. But the language family still originates in the African interior and if you trace it back in time, that is exactly what you will find. Same with Berber. Must not confuse present day NW African phenotype with the origins of Berber language or the physical appearance of the original tropical east African populations among whom these languages originated.
Also, the fact that Berber languages are still spoken, instead of Latin lends credence to the implied social political context of NW African Berber origins.
In other words, since some Maghrebian Berber clearly have southern European phenotype; why don't they speak southern European (Latin) languages? Perhaps it's for the same reason that Africoid phenotypes in Brazil speak Latin languages instead of African ones. Follow?
Good post Thought.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 19 November 2004).]
One problem with this is the fact that ancient Egyptians[Kemetians] recorded two types of Libyans in their artwork. Most scholars contend these two Libyan types are the ancestors of the modern day Berbers. The Tehennu and Tamahou. One is fair skinned while the other is shown in a dark brown pigament. In Later times Arab author like Ibn Khaldun describes the Berbers as being fair skinned. However, the desert tribes like the Sanhaja are described as majority black.
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According to the Historian Christopher Ehret the most probable origin of the Berbers is the Capsian culture, which entered North Africa, probably from the African coast of the Red Sea about 8000 BC.
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{One problem with this is the fact that ancient Egyptians[Kemetians] recorded two types of Libyans in their artwork. Most scholars contend these two Libyan types are the ancestors of the modern day Berbers. The Tehennu and Tamahou. One is fair skinned while the other is shown in a dark brown pigament.}
Thought Writes:
I was discussing NW Africans, and not all North Africans. In addition we do not know what LANGUAGE (Berber?) the Tehennu and Tamahou spoke. Finally it must be mentiond that we do not know how numerous the Tehennu and Tamahou were, nor their geographic range? Berber is a term that probably derives from the Roman period, Tehennu and Tamahou ethnicity derives from the Classical AE period. Linking these two entities is shoddy archaeology.
{In Later times Arab author like Ibn Khaldun describes the Berbers as being fair skinned.}
Ibn Khaldun lived from 1332 to 1406, hence it would be AFTER the change of the indigenous North African populations 1300 years ago (700AD).
You offer NO CREDIBLE problem or challenge to my theory.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: [BBerber is a term that probably derives from the Roman period, Tehennu and Tamahou ethnicity derives from the Classical AE period. Linking these two entities is shoddy archaeology.[/B]
Thought Writes:
I rephrase -
Linking these two entities, without supporting archeaological, skeletal, linguistic and genetic data is shoddy archaeology.
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: According to the Historian Christopher Ehret the most probable origin of the Berbers is the Capsian culture, which entered North Africa, probably from the African coast of the Red Sea about 8000 BC.
Thought Writes:
Yes and this region is within tropical Africa and hence had PROBABLY melanin levels consistent with other Sub-Saharan Africans. Therefore it is likely that the original Berbers were "Black" like most other Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
Yes and this region is within tropical Africa and hence had PROBABLY melanin levels consistent with other Sub-Saharan Africans. Therefore it is likely that the original Berbers were "Black" like most other Africans.
It is very possible. However there is no certitude about the origin of the Berbers, just educated speculations.
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*******The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula.******
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28. Related Articles, Links
Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.
Fox CL, Gonzalez Martin A, Vives Civit S.
Department of Animal Biology, Faculty of Biology, Barcelona, Spain.
A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.
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