Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study.
Zahi Hawass, egyptologist1, Somaia Ismail, professor of molecular biology23, Ashraf Selim, professor of radiology4, Sahar N Saleem, professor of radiology4, Dina Fathalla, molecular biologist3, Sally Wasef, molecular biologist5, Ahmed Z Gad, molecular biologist3, Rama Saad, molecular biologist3, Suzan Fares, molecular biologist3, Hany Amer, assistant professor of pharmacology6, Paul Gostner, radiologist7, Yehia Z Gad, professor of molecular genetics2, Carsten M Pusch, molecular biologist8, Albert R Zink, paleopathologist9
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Hawass led the study which means he had to have ok'd the haplogroup prediction at some point. I see that Zink and Pusch are still active with aDNA, proving faith-based nay-saying scholars that ancient DNA is authentic. I also see Hawass is loosening up now after realizing he can no longer plug the floodgates of inconvenient truths from bursting out the gates. Its like a bad case of diarrhea; its gonna come out, and when it does, you can try to pinch your sphincter all you want--to no avail.
It's going to be a bonus this Chrismas to see the blogs (Dienekes, Mathilda et al) respond to this, if they're not going to attempt to keep it from their audience, that is.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Someone needs to process these repeats and see where in Africa (and outside) they're the most frequent.
By looking at the repeats where man E and Ramses III differ, we can infer a bit about the ancestry of man E's mother. I suspect the autosomal repeats won't come out as strongly African as the 18th dynasty repeats, which primarily has to do with the fact that West Asians and Europeans have inherited relatively high doses of Ancient Egyptian alleles, as demonstrated by DNATribes and DNAconsultant.
Relative to the 18th dynasty mummies, Ramses III and his son have some differing alleles at the following loci: D2S1388, D21S11, D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA, though some of the alleles are shared at those sites as well. Repeats that occur in Ramses III and man E, but not in the 18th dynasty mummies:
16/23 (69.6%) of the combined repeats of Ramses III and man E are shared with the 18th dynasty mummies.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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"Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2⇓)."
--Hawass et al 2012. Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III. British Medical Journal, BMJ2012;345:e8268
Haplogroup E1b1a (now known as E-M2) is an African DNA group, most commonly found in sub-Saharan Africa QUOTE:
"Haplogroup E1b1 now contains two basal branches, E-V38 (E1b1a) and E-M215 (E1b1b), with V38/V100 joining the two previously separated lineages E-M2 (former E1b1a) and E-M329 (former E1b1c). Each of these two lineages has a peculiar geographic distribution. E-M2 is the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa, with frequency peaks in western (about 80%) and central Africa (about 60%)."
--Trombetta et al 2011. A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) PLoS ONE 6(1): e16073.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Beyoku great Find. Swenet nice breakdown and I hope TRUTH keeps on being revealed I may have an little respect for Hawass(Can't believe I said that)
True story, You can only coverup Truth for an short while. Truth stands the Test of time.
Swenet
Elb1a?? Does this mean that Ramses was linked with Bantu Type Africans? This would also put an damper on the "Horner Supremcist" who hate other Africans and love to claim Egypt is Horner land.
Beating 2 doe doe birds with one stick. Gotta Love it.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Blessings Brother. I was wondering when we would see your Posters of TRUTH to put an hurting on them boys.
Are you in shock like me that it was Hawass who broke the TRUTH? With this it would mean there is hope for Egyptologist after all.
Next village idiot, Bob Brier. He is just as bad as Hawass, so would love to see what he says about these TRUTHS being forced out by TRUTHSEEKERS like You, Swenet, Troll Patrol etc.
Keep the Flame on them Boys and now we know they can't coverup this truth.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KING: Elb1a?? Does this mean that Ramses was linked with Bantu Type Africans? This would also put an damper on the "Horner Supremcist" who hate other Africans and love to claim Egypt is Horner land.
That's what I find most delicious about this year's spate of findings too. The links aren't with the Horner types whose Africanity constantly gets questioned, but with the so-called Bantu/True Negro/Congoid Africans. You know, the very African people from whom Euronuts obsessively try to separate Egypt.
That said, I would not necessarily interpret these results as showing a particularly close tie between Egyptians and Central African Bantu (at least relative to other sub-Saharan Africans). Population geneticists often describe an early split between most Africans and Horners/non-Africans as the most basic partitioning of human genomes, so this data may reflect that the Egyptians predominantly came from the "most African" (or non-OOA African) side of the divide. Alternatively, Horners may have recently acquired a major Eurasian genetic component not present in Africa back in distant antiquity. At least these scenarios are what I would speculate.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
He will keep denying the truth, distorting and lying KING. But that's OK. That's what we expect. Our main job is to keep building the database with the facts and the visual evidence, and to expose their lies and distortion secondarily. PS, If I were you KING I would backup all the great images you have posted, and cross-post them to Reloaded. No telling when ES is going to disappear. Keep up the good work! Peace.
"Come the three corners of the world in arms, and we shall shock them." --Shakespeare, "King John"
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
LOL, Oh Im sure the Euroclowns will flood Youtube with this info like they did when they mistakenly thought that a Screenshot of Tut's DNA was accurate n making him R1b..
lol
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by KING: Beyoku great Find. Swenet nice breakdown and I hope TRUTH keeps on being revealed I may have an little respect for Hawass(Can't believe I said that)
True story, You can only coverup Truth for an short while. Truth stands the Test of time.
Swenet
Elb1a?? Does this mean that Ramses was linked with Bantu Type Africans? This would also put an damper on the "Horner Supremcist" who hate other Africans and love to claim Egypt is Horner land.
Beating 2 doe doe birds with one stick. Gotta Love it.
Peace
Yep, it sure is KING. E1b1a is the old E3a they talked about in the early days of ES, before they convulated everything with the repetitive 1's, a's and b's in the nomenclature of the Pn2 sub-clades.
Its hindsight 20/20 now, but looking back at the bones, Predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways. They may cluster in multivariate analysis, but their cranio-facial shapes were, in many ways, different from Horners. The Fawcett piece on Naqadans, quoted in Diop's 'origin of the Egyptians' chapter is misleading when it comes to her invocation of Germans, but she mentions traits that are clearly different from Cushite speaking Horners (e.g., in facial height, breadth and auricular height). I'm even beginning to doubt whether the proto-Afrasan speakers in Egypt were even that related to Cushitic speaking Horners. L2a1 and L2a types in Jewish people and prehistoric Syrians suggest no. Jewish communities all over the place also have as their oldest African ancestry, non-Horner Sub-Saharan autosomal ancestry that is said to predate to the Jewish diaspora, which would have to date it to contact with Ancient Egypt.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by KingMichael777: What do they mean in "Unknown man E"?
Read the paper. Its all in there.
Read through it multiple times. Still don't get it. :/
You mean to tell me you read this multiple times, and still don't know who unknown man E is?
Our analysis showed that Ramesses III and unknown man E shared the same paternal lineage and had identical alleles at autosomal markers, strongly suggesting that they were father and son. However, based on the genetic testing, any differentiation among the several sons of Ramesses III was not possible. Historically, Pentawere was the only son who revolted against his father in contrast to all his brothers. According to the Judicial Papyrus of Turin, Pentawere was involved in the harem conspiracy, was found guilty at trial, and then took his own life.
The unusual mummification process of unknown man E, including the ritually impure use of a goat skin to cover the body, could be interpreted as evidence for a punishment in the form of a non-royal burial procedure. Together with the genetically proven family relationship with Ramesses III, we therefore believe that unknown man E is a good candidate for Pentawere.Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by KingMichael777: What do they mean in "Unknown man E"?
Read the paper. Its all in there.
Read through it multiple times. Still don't get it. :/
You mean to tell me you read this multiple times, and still don't know who unknown man E is?
Our analysis showed that Ramesses III and unknown man E shared the same paternal lineage and had identical alleles at autosomal markers, strongly suggesting that they were father and son. However, based on the genetic testing, any differentiation among the several sons of Ramesses III was not possible. Historically, Pentawere was the only son who revolted against his father in contrast to all his brothers. According to the Judicial Papyrus of Turin, Pentawere was involved in the harem conspiracy, was found guilty at trial, and then took his own life.
The unusual mummification process of unknown man E, including the ritually impure use of a goat skin to cover the body, could be interpreted as evidence for a punishment in the form of a non-royal burial procedure. Together with the genetically proven family relationship with Ramesses III, we therefore believe that unknown man E is a good candidate for Pentawere.
Okay..But I just wondering why he was labled that.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by KingMichael777: Since Elb1a is mostly found in west Africa...Wad there actually a significant west African population in AE?
Depends on how you define "West African". If you mean the area traditionally defined as such (i.e. the Niger River and adjacent areas), than not necessarily. However, when you consider the archaeological ties many predynastic Egyptian cultures show to the Western Desert, in a sense you could say the Egyptians received significant influences from Africa west of the Nile.
The PN2 clade does suggest a somewhat close fraternal link between Egyptian, Nilo-Saharan, and Niger-Congo-speaking African peoples. Now combine that genetic data with linguistic reports of affinity between Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan and Diop's argument for a relationship between Niger-Congo and Afrasan.
In my personal speculation, Diop was not so off the mark when he argued that the majority of Saharo-Tropical African people descend from Nile Valley inhabitants. He may not have projected that common ancestry far back enough (dating it to historical antiquity rather than sometime in the Late Stone Age), but he could still have gotten the basic movements right. The scenario I envision is that Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, and Egyptian peoples can all trace their heritage to Late Stone Age peoples living somewhere around the Nile area. Claims of related mathematical processes between the Ishango bone in Central Africa and ancient Egyptian papyri could further narrow this area to the Nile's very source, vindicating the "Mountains of the Moon" legend.
If this does indeed turn out to be the case, I wonder what we would call this macro-ethnic group?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
^It seems to me to be the case that most Cushitic speakers formed late (their signature lineage, NRY E-M78 [E-V32], was introduced to the Somali population ~4-5kya), this post dates the proposed proto Niger Congo presence in Eastern Africa, since Niger Congo speaking agriculturalists were already present in West Africa by then. This may explain why Cushitic speakers may have little E-M2 and cannot be used to gauge E-M2 in at least some of the earliest Afrasans. The earliest E-M78 in Northern Africa (E-V68), which dates to ~18kya, is old enough for some Afro-Asiatic and Nilo-Saharan branches to have interacted with early Niger-Congo speakers. The Kordofan region or somewhere close would be a good candidate region for this scenario due to the presence of languages related to Niger Congo in the region. The drawback is that Kordofanian populations carry little E-M2, if the Nuba are any indication. Wherever it occurred, these E-M2 admixed Nilo-Saharan speakers and Afro-Asiatic speakers could then have met again along the Nile after the wet Saharan phase.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by KingMichael777: Since Elb1a is mostly found in west Africa...Wad there actually a significant west African population in AE?
Depends on how you define "West African". If you mean the area traditionally defined as such (i.e. the Niger River and adjacent areas), than not necessarily. However, when you consider the archaeological ties many predynastic Egyptian cultures show to the Western Desert, in a sense you could say the Egyptians received significant influences from Africa west of the Nile.
The PN2 clade does suggest a somewhat close fraternal link between Egyptian, Nilo-Saharan, and Niger-Congo-speaking African peoples. Now combine that genetic data with linguistic reports of affinity between Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan and Diop's argument for a relationship between Niger-Congo and Afrasan.
In my personal speculation, Diop was not so off the mark when he argued that the majority of Saharo-Tropical African people descend from Nile Valley inhabitants. He may not have projected that common ancestry far back enough (dating it to historical antiquity rather than sometime in the Late Stone Age), but he could still have gotten the basic movements right. The scenario I envision is that Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, and Egyptian peoples can all trace their heritage to Late Stone Age peoples living somewhere around the Nile area. Claims of related mathematical processes between the Ishango bone in Central Africa and ancient Egyptian papyri could further narrow this area to the Nile's very source, vindicating the "Mountains of the Moon" legend.
If this does indeed turn out to be the case, I wonder what we would call this macro-ethnic group?
Good point!
West Africans are not ONE monolithic group. Different groups migrated to WA during different times.
But I guess most people would think of West Africans as mandinka people, Ashanti people, Yoruba, Fulani,etc...
Don't Yoruba people claim they descend from Egypt? And I heard of the Ishango bone, very interesting.
Its hindsight 20/20 now, but looking back at the bones, Predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways. They may cluster in multivariate analysis, but their cranio-facial shapes were, in many ways, different from Horners.
what about Nilotes?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Relying again on popSTR and with a further caveat that only 75% of the reported alleles are in that db and remembering its geo-ethnies are rather limited there was a slight preponderance of Africa over SW Asia and Europe the latter two being about even in "contribution."
There were two very rare alleles: * D7S820=6, now found in Somalia * D2S1338=15, now found in NW Russia.
Only one region now has the highest frequency of both alleles of locus CSF1PO=7,10; southern Africa with Namibian San slightly higher than South Africa baNtu. But southern Africa lacks D13S317=9 whereas the Great Lakes/Horn (i.e., Kenya Bantu/Somalia) and all of the Europe regions have it.
Just as popSTR found with Yuya, the Orkneys now present the strongest Europe repository while Galacia has one more profile locus than Galacia it doesn't register any highest frequency alleles at all.
Africa only alleles * D7S820=6 * D21S11=35 More common to Africa alleles * CSF1PO=7
Europe only alleles * D2S1338=15 More common to Europe alleles * D13S317=9
Unknown man E's mother's alleles are slightly more common to Africa than SW Asia or Europe but with D2S1338=15 now peculiar to Europe.
Besides the global I only did her Africa breakdown. Now her alleles are found a bit more in southern Africa, tropical W Africa and the Sahel are neck and neck at southern Africa's heels.
UME's mum's profile are the 2 out of 4 values w/o the asterisks. Where a locus for the father and son have but 2 values UME's mum is likewise the same.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Someone needs to process these repeats and see where in Africa (and outside) they're the most frequent.
By looking at the repeats where man E and Ramses III differ, we can infer a bit about the ancestry of man E's mother. I suspect the autosomal repeats won't come out as strongly African as the 18th dynasty repeats, which primarily has to do with the fact that West Asians and Europeans have inherited relatively high doses of Ancient Egyptian alleles, as demonstrated by DNATribes and DNAconsultant.
Relative to the 18th dynasty mummies, Ramses III and his son have some differing alleles at the following loci: D2S1388, D21S11, D16S539, D18S51, CSF1PO, FGA, though some of the alleles are shared at those sites as well. Repeats that occur in Ramses III and man E, but not in the 18th dynasty mummies:
posted
Buy the following book and you will find out more about the connection between the Niger-congo speakers and Egyptians.
Egyptian Languages , provides the linguistic evidence that confirms the hypothesis of Cheikh Anta Diop, L. Homburger, M. Delafosse that the Niger-Congo speakers and Egyptians had a common origin. In this book we argue that many Egytians living in the 22 sepats of Upper Egypt spoke Niger-Congo languages including the Bantu, Fulani, and Mande languages.
Egyptian Languages , provides the genetic, linguistic and archaeological evidence relating to the diverse Niger-Congo speakers who made up segments of the Egyptian nation. Readers of this book will learn that the Niger-Congo speakers originated in the Highland regions of Middle Africa: the Mountains of the Moon ; and that this population which later settled Upper Egypt, formerly belonged to the Ounanian culture.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] ^^^^^ do you have any with unbroken noses?
You perfectly know that Ancient Kemite statues had their noses broken off by later non-African dynasty to try to hide their African identity.
Here's the Hieroglyph (medu neter) for "Face"/Hr in Ancient Egyptian language:
That's not true. The noses were broken off because the person didn't like the king. Sometimes in Egyptian history new kings would destroy temples and deface effigies of certain former kings before them for political reaosns. For example, Akenhaten's temples were destroyed and he an several related kings after him were removed from the king's list. The idea that noseses were broken off statues because they looked African is complete speculation without supporting evidence. I'm not saying it never ever happened but look at the statues that have noses intact on ancient Egyptian statues. If you broke those noses off they would look flatter and in fact more West African. Breaking off the nose makes it look more West African not less.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Originally posted by KingMichael777: Since Elb1a is mostly found in west Africa...Wad there actually a significant west African population in AE?
E1b1a is found not only in West Africa but Central Africa as well, a location in which some geographers include parts of CHad- a Saharan zone nation as well. But aside from that, the climatic cycles of the Sahara caused the movement of populations across a broad range. E1b1a carriers could be in the Nile Valley, the Sahel, or elsewhere further west or south, depending on the era, with the densities changing over the millennia. They are not limited by neat "apartheid" zones on the continent but move freely based on circumstances over millennia.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by KingMichael777: Since Elb1a is mostly found in west Africa...Wad there actually a significant west African population in AE?
E1b1a is found not only in West Africa but Central Africa as well, a location in which some geographers include parts of CHad- a Saharan zone nation as well. But aside from that, the climatic cycles of the Sahara caused the movement of populations across a broad range. E1b1a carriers could be in the Nile Valley, the Sahel, or elsewhere further west or south, depending on the era, with the densities changing over the millennia. They are not limited by neat "apartheid" zones on the continent but move freely based on circumstances over millennia.
True, E1b1a being in Central Africa is mostly due to the Bantu Expansion.
It could be true. King Tut was said to have some West African ancestry according to DNAtribes.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.
.
I think its more accurate to say that ancient Egypt was a product of a Pan-African bio-culture, that made up many tropical African ethnicities. Egypt is only one child of that culture, albeit a very important one. It is not a central headquarters for Africans or Africa, as some seem to envision. It is a result of things existing and worked out on the core bio-cultural ground, not a cause.
Divine kingship for example was not invented in Egypt and then spread to the rest of Africa. The movement is the other way. It already existed on the ground and then spread to the Egyptian zone. The driving force, the groundings is always with Africa first.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Hey alTakruri. Here is some more data to compare with your results. This paper posted by Beyoku shows that the Ugandan Nilo-Saharan speaking Karamojong in fact do have the alleles your software associates with Europeans. How do the European frequencies of D2S1338=15 and D13S317=9 compare to Karamojong frequencies of these alleles?
The former allele (D2S1338=15) occurs more often in African Americans than European Americans, per this link, and it also occurs at slightly higher rate in the Karamojong. The other one (D13S317=9) occurs more in European Americans than in African Americans and Karamojans according to the aforementioned link. This paper seems to also agree with your software's conclusion of D13S317=9. The drawback of 2/3 links I provide here is that the comparative samples are diasporal Africans who descend from West Africans. West Africa and the Sahel are not the best African regions to compare to Europe when it comes to the Amarna family population affinities, which can be seen in DNATribes' regional MLI scores.
BTW, did you read my DNAconsultants.com thread before it got deleted a couple of weeks ago? They detected Amerindian and Iberian links, just like you did, but they interpret all the Hawass2010 alleles they processed (three in total) as having originated in Central Africa (in deep time), and explain the relatively high doses of the alleles in Eurasia as admixture with Ancient Egyptians (probably way before the dynastic times) and so, ultimately with Central Africans. They call the alleles ''genes'', but they're the same alleles we're discussing here. Just something to keep in mind whenever these alleles appear in Eurasia; at least the ones analyzed by DNAconsultants are all indicative of contact with Africans:
Its hindsight 20/20 now, but looking back at the bones, Predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways. They may cluster in multivariate analysis, but their cranio-facial shapes were, in many ways, different from Horners.
what about Nilotes?
What do you mean? Naqada ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes? From what we already know about them, the ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes and Naqadans are probably weak. But the extreme tall and slender phenotype of Southern Sudanese Nilotes probably didn't exist back then (not in Central Sudan), but they were evidently there, as evidenced by the lip plugs found in Central Sudanese graves (allegedly also in Ethiopia) before dynastic times and the archaeologitcal and linguistic data which places them along the Middle Nile and surrounding regions.
Finds of beads are very rare prior to the Neolithic. However, as is found in regions such as Western Asia (Wright and Garrard 2003), beadwork, especially in ground stone, becomes much more common, with new ranges of bead colours and forms. A workshop for carnelian beads has recently been identified at Sai island (Geus 2000), and partially completed agate and quartz beads have been found deposited in graves (Salvatori and Usai 2002). Adornments such as stone lip-plugs also appear. It is interesting that these appear to be much more common in more southerly areas, rarely being found in the Dongola Reach. Red Sea shells including cowries and Nerita polita are being used for beadwork, and more exotic materials such as amazonite/malachite are also in use. --David Edwards, THE NUBIAN PAST
^As noted by the Edwards, there seems to be a distinction between Southern and Northern Nilo-Saharan speakers in lip plugs, which mirrors other distinctions (e.g., morphology and a dominance of pharaonic culture and religion).
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Very interesting. Like DNA Tribes they also show African origin of Ancient Egyptian mummies genes. Although, we have limited information into how they generated their maps (as far as I know yet). We know they compared alleles (value) of mummies with alleles of people around the world and it mainly matches black Africans again. Other people around the world are as close to the mummies as they are close to African people (in degree). GREAT.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Very interesting. Like DNA Tribes they also show African origin of Ancient Egyptian mummies genes. Although, we have limited information into how they generated their maps (as far as I know yet). We know they compared alleles (value) of mummies with alleles of people around the world and it mainly matches black Africans again. Other people around the world are as close to the mummies as they are close to African people (in degree). GREAT.
Its funny, because the connection between AA's and Ancient Egyptians is starting show MORE and MORE.
Call me an Afrocentric all you want. Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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Very interesting. Like DNA Tribes they also show African origin of Ancient Egyptian mummies genes. Although, we have limited information into how they generated their maps (as far as I know yet). We know they compared alleles (value) of mummies with alleles of people around the world and it mainly matches black Africans again. Other people around the world are as close to the mummies as they are close to African people (in degree). GREAT.
Its funny, because the connection between AA's and Ancient Egyptians is starting show MORE and MORE.
Call me an Afrocentric all you want.
We can call you(us) Afrorealistic now. Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Very interesting. Like DNA Tribes they also show African origin of Ancient Egyptian mummies genes. Although, we have limited information into how they generated their maps (as far as I know yet). We know they compared alleles (value) of mummies with alleles of people around the world and it mainly matches black Africans again. Other people around the world are as close to the mummies as they are close to African people (in degree). GREAT.
Its funny, because the connection between AA's and Ancient Egyptians is starting show MORE and MORE.
Call me an Afrocentric all you want.
We can call you(us) Afrorealistic now.
Yep!
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
Come on Bro Clyde! It does matter what YOU think.
It is not surprising that Ram III has an Afrcan lineage.
-To others- Because E1b1a has highest frequency in West Africa does not mean it originated IN West Africa. E1b1a orginated in the Sahara west of Egypt. Keep in mind that K's of years prior to the formation of AE the Sahara was a green "paradise". There wasn't a barrier as such.
If I was to make an educated guess as I said years ago, predicted popular lineage, would be E1b1b, E1b1a then Hg-A in that order. Geography is the only predictor. Only a uneducated idiot would believe Tut is R1b1b2a(R-M-269). Maybe R-V88.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.
I still believe Tut was R1.
.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Wow! I just got through reading the paper and I am not only intrigued by the findings that Unknown Man E is Pentawere but exhilarated by the thought that Ramses III and Pentawere probably possessed E1b1a!!
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Good find.
Hawass led the study which means he had to have ok'd the haplogroup prediction at some point. I see that Zink and Pusch are still active with aDNA, proving faith-based nay-saying scholars that ancient DNA is authentic. I also see Hawass is loosening up now after realizing he can no longer plug the floodgates of inconvenient truths from bursting out the gates. Its like a bad case of diarrhea; its gonna come out, and when it does, you can try to pinch your sphincter all you want--to no avail.
It's going to be a bonus this Chrismas to see the blogs (Dienekes, Mathilda et al) respond to this, if they're not going to attempt to keep it from their audience, that is.
I couldn't have put it any better myself! I bet that's exactly how Hawass must feel-- like he has a bad case of diarrhea that he is desperate to stop! LOL It's as I and many veterans have been predicting all along-- that the truth was going to come out eventually. I mean the whole 'ban' on DNA testing of mummies had to end eventually, but several years ago when Tut and his family were tested, I knew it was only the beginning of the end!
As for the Euronut blog owner and web mistress Dienekes and Mathilda, I can only imagine that they are squirming like the worms they are! You can already see the desperation in one of Mathilda's employees in this forum as it is. LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Come on Bro Clyde! It does matter what YOU think.
It is not surprising that Ram III has an Afrcan lineage.
-To others- Because E1b1a has highest frequency in West Africa does not mean it originated IN West Africa. E1b1a orginated in the Sahara west of Egypt. Keep in mind that K's of years prior to the formation of AE the Sahara was a green "paradise". There wasn't a barrier as such.
If I was to make an educated guess as I said years ago, predicted popular lineage, would be E1b1b, E1b1a then Hg-A in that order. Geography is the only predictor. Only a uneducated idiot would believe Tut is R1b1b2a(R-M-269). Maybe R-V88.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.
I still believe Tut was R1.
.
Yes and unfortunately you have the Afronuts like Clyde who think such findings further license them to spread their nonsense of Tut carrying R1 which is based on the countless times DEBUNKED footage of a control sample. And he still puts forth the nonsense that Egypt was a 'Pan-African' civilization as if Africans from all parts of the continent took part. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Its hindsight 20/20 now, but looking back at the bones, Predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways. They may cluster in multivariate analysis, but their cranio-facial shapes were, in many ways, different from Horners.
what about Nilotes?
What do you mean? Naqada ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes? From what we already know about them, the ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes and Naqadans are probably weak. But the extreme tall and slender phenotype of Southern Sudanese Nilotes probably didn't exist back then (not in Central Sudan), but they were evidently there, as evidenced by the lip plugs found in Central Sudanese graves (allegedly also in Ethiopia) before dynastic times and the archaeologitcal and linguistic data which places them along the Middle Nile and surrounding regions.
Finds of beads are very rare prior to the Neolithic. However, as is found in regions such as Western Asia (Wright and Garrard 2003), beadwork, especially in ground stone, becomes much more common, with new ranges of bead colours and forms. A workshop for carnelian beads has recently been identified at Sai island (Geus 2000), and partially completed agate and quartz beads have been found deposited in graves (Salvatori and Usai 2002). Adornments such as stone lip-plugs also appear. It is interesting that these appear to be much more common in more southerly areas, rarely being found in the Dongola Reach. Red Sea shells including cowries and Nerita polita are being used for beadwork, and more exotic materials such as amazonite/malachite are also in use. --David Edwards, THE NUBIAN PAST
^As noted by the Edwards, there seems to be a distinction between Southern and Northern Nilo-Saharan speakers in lip plugs, which mirrors other distinctions (e.g., morphology and a dominance of pharaonic culture and religion).
Truthcentric had said he thought Nilotes have the greatest affinity of modern people to ancient Egyptians. But you said ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes and Naqadans are probably weak. Others suggest Horners might have the greatest affinity of modern people to ancient Egyptians. But you said said predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways.
Well I guess that leaves Copts
-unless you suggest the primary ancestors of dynastic Egyptians were not predynastic Naqadans
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
LOL find a fool bump his head. R-V88 is still a R1 clade, they just changed the name to make it appear that Blacks belong solely to onr clade and whites to another. They do this to make it appear that Blacks never left Africa after 60kya. In this way they can claim specific clades like mtDNA M, U6 and N, and y-haplogroups R. are of Eurasian origin, when in reality the age of these haplogroups support the view they had already expanded across Africa. Next these geneticist claim there was a back migration of these clades back into Africa, via the Levant--when the Levant was still occupied by Neanderthals. Eventhough the archaeology , contradicts the theories of these researchers advocating a back migration people here and elsewhere take these researchers seriously.
Dravidian archaeology and linguistics indicate they recently migrated from Nubia into India, yet geneticists claim Dravidians are native to India.
LOL people would rather be led by someone else instead of thinking for themselves.
Also, the E clade could not have originated in West Africa because Niger-Congo people don't appear in the region until between 3000-2500 BC.
As Grandma said, "Find a fool bump his head"
.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Come on Bro Clyde! It does matter what YOU think.
It is not surprising that Ram III has an Afrcan lineage.
-To others- Because E1b1a has highest frequency in West Africa does not mean it originated IN West Africa. E1b1a orginated in the Sahara west of Egypt. Keep in mind that K's of years prior to the formation of AE the Sahara was a green "paradise". There wasn't a barrier as such.
If I was to make an educated guess as I said years ago, predicted popular lineage, would be E1b1b, E1b1a then Hg-A in that order. Geography is the only predictor. Only a uneducated idiot would believe Tut is R1b1b2a(R-M-269). Maybe R-V88.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.
posted
Ignoring the amateur pseudo-science nonsense above.
This finding of E1b1a present among pharaohs should not be all that surprising since that hg is present today in the Upper Nile Valley of Egypt. Scholars in the past have tried in vain to associate this with 'Sub-Saharan slave trade' in Nilotes, yet the populations which this occurs are indigenous Egyptians while enslaved Nilotes usually carried A and B if not E1b1b.
Another significant implication of this finding is laying to rest the theory that the Ramessides were of 'northern' or rather Asiatic extraction! Clearly this isn't the case at all at least in terms of paternal lineage. We know the Ramesside kings had Asiatic princesses in their harem, but only those sons born to Egyptian women could rule and judging by the cranial studies of Harris and Wente, the Egyptian women of the harem are very much southern.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Where ever they are now, these alleles were all present in three Egyptian Africans two of whom's nrY chromosome is the deeply rooted African E-V38 (E1b1a) ancestral to E-M2 (now E1b1a1) "sub-Sahara" Africa's prevalent super-haplogroup.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Beyoku shows that the Ugandan Nilo-Saharan speaking Karamojong in fact do have the alleles your software associates with Europeans.
quote:The former allele (D2S1338=15) occurs more often in African Americans than European Americans, per this link, and it also occurs at slightly higher rate in the Karamojong. The other one (D13S317=9) occurs more in European Americans than in African Americans and Karamojans according to the aforementioned link. This paper seems to also agree with your software's conclusion of D13S317=9.
quote: The drawback of 2/3 links I provide here is that the comparative samples are diasporal Africans who descend from West Africans. West Africa and the Sahel are not the best African regions to compare to Europe ...
Again, popSTR's not robust. Randomness has its benefits. Zheng drew his conclusions from only three different African populations: * Luhya from Webuye Kenya * Yoruba * American SouthWest.
Of course this is nothing on Zheng's scale but popSTR's benefit as a limited db is that its small size simulates a random collection without a priori strategy.
BTW, did you read my DNAconsultants.com thread before it got deleted a couple of weeks ago?
NO they took it down before I could see it. Thanks for the below.
quote: They detected Amerindian and Iberian links, just like you did, but they interpret all the Hawass2010 alleles they processed (three in total) as having originated in Central Africa (in deep time), and explain the relatively high doses of the alleles in Eurasia as admixture with Ancient Egyptians (probably way before the dynastic times) and so, ultimately with Central Africans. They call the alleles ''genes'', but they're the same alleles we're discussing here. Just something to keep in mind whenever these alleles appear in Eurasia; at least the ones analyzed by DNAconsultants are all indicative of contact with Africans:
posted
Maybe I wasn't clear. No dis-respect Dr. Winters. Just saying, clarify which Hg-R you are referencing. R-M269 is geographically light years away from the Nile Valley. The indigenous people of the Nile Valley are pre-dominantly E1b1b, E1b1a, A are some J. It is virtually impossible for the Pharaohs to be R-M269. Only delusion serialist will believe such. But there is a very remote possibility that they are R-V88.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: LOL find a fool bump his head. R-V88 is still a R1 clade, they just changed the name to make it appear that Blacks belong solely to onr clade and whites to another. They do this to make it appear that Blacks never left Africa after 60kya. In this way they can claim specific clades like mtDNA M, U6 and N, and y-haplogroups R. are of Eurasian origin, when in reality the age of these haplogroups support the view they had already expanded across Africa. Next these geneticist claim there was a back migration of these clades back into Africa, via the Levant--when the Levant was still occupied by Neanderthals. Eventhough the archaeology , contradicts the theories of these researchers advocating a back migration people here and elsewhere take these researchers seriously.
Dravidian archaeology and linguistics indicate they recently migrated from Nubia into India, yet geneticists claim Dravidians are native to India.
LOL people would rather be led by someone else instead of thinking for themselves.
Also, the E clade could not have originated in West Africa because Niger-Congo people don't appear in the region until between 3000-2500 BC.
As Grandma said, "Find a fool bump his head"
.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Come on Bro Clyde! It does matter what YOU think.
It is not surprising that Ram III has an Afrcan lineage.
-To others- Because E1b1a has highest frequency in West Africa does not mean it originated IN West Africa. E1b1a orginated in the Sahara west of Egypt. Keep in mind that K's of years prior to the formation of AE the Sahara was a green "paradise". There wasn't a barrier as such.
If I was to make an educated guess as I said years ago, predicted popular lineage, would be E1b1b, E1b1a then Hg-A in that order. Geography is the only predictor. Only a uneducated idiot would believe Tut is R1b1b2a(R-M-269). Maybe R-V88.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: These findings support Wally's discovery that Egypt was a Pan-African civilization made up of many West African ethnicities.
I still believe Tut was R1.
.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Its hindsight 20/20 now, but looking back at the bones, Predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways. They may cluster in multivariate analysis, but their cranio-facial shapes were, in many ways, different from Horners.
what about Nilotes?
What do you mean? Naqada ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes? From what we already know about them, the ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes and Naqadans are probably weak. But the extreme tall and slender phenotype of Southern Sudanese Nilotes probably didn't exist back then (not in Central Sudan), but they were evidently there, as evidenced by the lip plugs found in Central Sudanese graves (allegedly also in Ethiopia) before dynastic times and the archaeologitcal and linguistic data which places them along the Middle Nile and surrounding regions.
Finds of beads are very rare prior to the Neolithic. However, as is found in regions such as Western Asia (Wright and Garrard 2003), beadwork, especially in ground stone, becomes much more common, with new ranges of bead colours and forms. A workshop for carnelian beads has recently been identified at Sai island (Geus 2000), and partially completed agate and quartz beads have been found deposited in graves (Salvatori and Usai 2002). Adornments such as stone lip-plugs also appear. It is interesting that these appear to be much more common in more southerly areas, rarely being found in the Dongola Reach. Red Sea shells including cowries and Nerita polita are being used for beadwork, and more exotic materials such as amazonite/malachite are also in use. --David Edwards, THE NUBIAN PAST
^As noted by the Edwards, there seems to be a distinction between Southern and Northern Nilo-Saharan speakers in lip plugs, which mirrors other distinctions (e.g., morphology and a dominance of pharaonic culture and religion).
Truthcentric had said he thought Nilotes have the greatest affinity of modern people to ancient Egyptians. But you said ties with Southern Sudanese Nilotes and Naqadans are probably weak. Others suggest Horners might have the greatest affinity of modern people to ancient Egyptians. But you said said predynastic Naqadans were clearly different from Horners in many ways.
Well I guess that leaves Copts
-unless you suggest the primary ancestors of dynastic Egyptians were not predynastic Naqadans
No, you're not interpreting me correctly, probably due to your lack of understanding the matter at hand. Southern Sudanese Nilotes aren't the only Nilotes--they're just a branch of wider Nilote family. I'm hesitant to continue talking to you because 9 times out of 10 your questions are motivated by backhanded attempts to somehow show contradictions or contrast answers with what some other person/authority says. Bottom line, you need to learn to read:
--I clearly said there were Southern and Northern Nilotes (e.g., Northern Sudanic, Saharo-Sahelian, speakers are examples of Northern Nilotes). I had to drill the same thing into Manu's head. There is no reason why a language grouping with time depths deeper than Indo-European should include folks who all look alike if it is widely acknowledged that Indo-European speakers don't.
--I clearly said the extreme tall and lean physique seen in many Southern Sudanese Nilotes was probably not in existence back then. Jebel Moya (most likely a Southern Nilote sample in dynastic times) is described as not far removed from pre-dynastic Egypt in metric analysis. Berry and Berry (1973) repeat this with non-metric analysis.
I also said that Naqadans do cluster with Horners due to a composite physique that is intermediate between Northern Africans and West Africans (not necessarily due to Horner descent). Isolated features, however, show that Naqadans wouldn't have looked like Horners they're traditionally confused with, i.e., Somali's or Oromo. They had semi-broad faces on par with many Niger Congo speakers, a low vault height and very elongated calvarium (hyperdolichocephaly). None of these occur in the populational averages of Cushitic speaking Horners, who are, on average, leptoprospic (tall faced) and not as extremely dolichocephalic, according to Hiernaux' data.
Miss Fawcett believes the Naqada crania to be sufficiantly homogenous to justify speaking of a Naqada race. By height of the skull, the auricular height, the height and width of the face, the height of the nose, the ceohalic and facial indexes, this race presents affinities with Negroes. By the nasal width, the height of the orbit, the length of the palate, and the nasal index, it presents affinities with Germans....
Go play somewhere, will ya.
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