Shows some similarities in attitudes about the family between ancient Egypt and other African cultures. I thought the rest of you would be interested.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I agree that there is still debate over basic information such as how family lineage was reckoned in ancient Egyptian society, and that excellent models to be used as examples are other African societies. We know from basic cultural anthropology that matrilineal descent was likely the oldest and most common form being that tracing ones mothers through birth is much easier and more practical than tracing fathers through conception. We also know that many cultures throughout the world experience a transition or shift to patrlineage, and there are few cultures that use both and are bilineal. As for the Egyptians, what we know is that farmlands were usually matrilineally transmitted from mother to daughter and may also reflect women being innovators of agriculture. As far as pharonic titles, they seem to be transmitted from father to son yet we know that in order for a man to be pharaoh he had to first marry a royal woman.
I believe Ausar's statment that many Fellahin don't have surnames may also be a clue.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I agree that there is still debate over basic information such as how family lineage was reckoned in ancient Egyptian society, and that excellent models to be used as examples are other African societies. We know from basic cultural anthropology that matrilineal descent was likely the oldest and most common form being that tracing ones mothers through birth is much easier and more practical than tracing fathers through conception. We also know that many cultures throughout the world experience a transition or shift to patrlineage, and there are few cultures that use both and are bilineal. As for the Egyptians, what we know is that farmlands were usually matrilineally transmitted from mother to daughter and may also reflect women being innovators of agriculture. As far as pharonic titles, they seem to be transmitted from father to son yet we know that in order for a man to be pharaoh he had to first marry a royal woman.
I believe Ausar's statment that many Fellahin don't have surnames may also be a clue.
True enough. There would be some debate because ancient Egypt was not an exact clone of the African cultures near it. It developed itsown unique features. Nor should they be expected to be exact clones. The African family patterns should be seen as part of the broad mix of links, with many differing details but still some key similarities with those who populated Egypt from the Sahara and the Sudan. There are a lot of other links as shown below. All of these form the great mosiac of African diversity and continuity into the Nile Valley.
Much older scholarship shows cultural similarities between ancient Egypt and the rest of Africa, contradicting claims of Middle Eastern inspiration.
--Specific central African tool designs found at the well known Naqada, Badari and Fayum archaeological sites in Egypt (de Heinzelin 1962, Arkell and Ucko, 1956 et al). Shaw (1976) states that "the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." Pottery evidence first seen in the Saharan Highlands then spreading to the Nile Valley (Flight 1973). Art motifs of Saharan rock paintings showing similarities to those in pharaonic art. A number of scholars suggest that these earlier artistic styles influenced later pharaonic art via Saharans leaving drier areas and moving into the Nile Valley taking their art styles with them (Mori 1964, Blanc 1964, et al)
--Earlier pioneering mummification outside Egypt. The oldest mummy in Africa is of a black Saharan child (Donadoni 1964, Blanc 1964) Frankfort (1956) suggests that it is thus possible to understand the pharaonic worldview by reference to the religious beliefs of these earlier African precursors. Attempts to suggest the root of such practices are due to Caucasoid civilizers from elsewhere are thus contradicted by the data on the ground.
--Several cultural practices of Egypt show strong similarities to an African totemic clan base. Childe (1969, 1978), Aldred (1978) and Strouhal (1971) demonstrate linkages with several African practices such as divine kingship and the king as divine rainmaker.
--Physical similarities of the early Nile valley populations with that of tropical Africans. Such connections are demonstrated in the work of numerous scholars such as Thompson and Randall Mclver 1905, Falkenburger 1947, and Strouhal 1971. The distance diagrams of Mukherjee, Rao and Trevor (1955) place the ancient Badarians genetically near 'black' tribes such as the Ashanti and the Taita. See also the "Issues of lumping under Mediterranean clusters" section above for similar older analyses.
--Serological (blood) evidence of genetic linkages. Paoli 1972 for example found a significant resemblance between ABO frequencies of dynastic Egyptians and the black northern Haratin who are held to be the probable descendants of the original Saharans (Hiernaux, 1975).
--Language similarities which include several hundred roots ascribable to African elements (UNESCO 1974)
--Ancient Egyptian origin stories ascribing origins of the gods and their ancestors to African locations to the south and west of Egypt (Davidson 1959)
--Advanced state building and political unity in Nubia, including writing, administrative apparatus and insignia some 300 years before dynastic Egypt, and the long demonstrated interchange between Nubia and Egypt (Williams 1980)
--Newer studies (Wendorf 2001, Wilkinson 1999, et al.) confirm these older analyses. Excavations from Nabta Playa, located about 100km west of Abu Simbel for example, suggest that the Neolithic inhabitants of the region were migrants from Sub-Saharan Africa, based on cultural similarities and social complexity which is thought to be reflective of Egypt's Old Kingdom
--Other scholars (Wilkinson 1999) present similar material and cultural evidence- including similarities between predynastic Egypt and traditional African cattle-culture, typical of Southern Sudanese and East African pastoralists of today, and various cultural and artistic data such as iconography on rock art found in both Egypt and in the Sudan.
One of Egypt's greatest dynasties, the 12th, originated from dark-skinned Nubian stock, according to conservative Egyptologist F. Yurco (1989). Other conservative Egyptologists such as Redford (From Slave to Pharoah: The Black Experience, 2004) also consider Nubia to be primarily 'black'. The 12th Dynasty ruled approximately 1000 years BEFORE the well known "black" 25th Dynasty. Conquest and inaguration of the Dynastic era from the 'darker' south not the north near the Mediterranean or Middle East.
Quote:
"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region.4 As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract. Why would this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
Ancient Egyptian religion closer to the religion of African regions than to Mesopotamia, Europe or the Middle East
QUOTE(s): Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508 "A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."
"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)
and yet some argue that "wandering Caucasoids" are responsible for fundamental Egyptian culture...
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^ Please Zarahan, enough with the silly soft porn. We know about the cacazoid crazed eurocentrics, but we are discussing specifically cultural aspects.
It is correct though, that alot of what Egyptology doesn't know when it comes to ancient Egyptian culture is a direct result of refusing to identify it as African and comparing it to other African cultures. Back to this topic specifically, I have read from various scholars that totems in various sepat (nomes) were likely clan totems that belonged to the local ruling clans. Many of these totems were feminine in concept and may suggest matrilocality.
Another interesting feature of family and kinship when it came to Egyptian royalty that was considered peculiar to Western scholars was the fact that some of the children of the Great Wife (queen) may not be biologically the king's, and that the queen may be able to bear children by men other than her official pharoah husband. Such children were adopted by the pharaoh, but a distinction was still made between them or other adopted children of the houshold and those children "born from the body" of the pharaoh. We can see examples of this in the 17th dynasty where Aahotep I had her daughter Ahmose-Nefertari by her husband Sekenenra Tao II, but she had her sons Kamose and Ahmose by an unknown male. Such a thing would be unthinkable for a queen in European society or 'Near-Eastern' society but it was not uncommon in some African cultures. This is likely another vestige of more ancient mother-right times.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ausar brought up an interesting fact in another thread that many Fellahin don't have surnames while others in the Delta or in Upper Egypt began using their grandfather's names as surnames. This likely means that their ancient ancestors never used surnames either. Now this does not mean they don't trace any lineage or ancestry. There are actually many cultures around the world where people don't have surnames, but they still trace their lineage to a certain ancestor/ancestress or personage. In fact all surname itself is nothing more than the personal name of a common family or clan ancestor. In northeast Africa we see among all pastoralist groups patrilineal descent yet many of these groups don't use surnames. Instead, an individual would identify his or herself as the son or daughter of a certain man and then stated the clan or tribe he or she is a part of. Among males specifically, there could even be a memorization of the whole patrilineage from grand fathers and great-great-grandfathers all the way to the founding clan ancestor. I'm pretty sure this was the case with ancient Egyptians but whether it was matrilineal, patrilineal, or both remains unclear.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ Interesting knowledge, though memorizing all those ancestors sounds like a chore!
BTW, according to this source, most African societies are actually patrilineal, though there do exist matrilineal societies.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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^ Of course. It's a basic fact most societies worldwide in general are patrilineal, my point in my initial post is that this may not have always been the case. There is even recent historical documentation of societies once matrilineal giving way to patrilineage. As for Africa, I remember reading a paper last year that discussed the correlation of a shift from matrilineage to patrilineage with a shift from agriculture to pastoralism.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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One interesting thing about the patrilineal "bias" of African societies is that it contradicts assorted white feminist claims of a universal matriarchy of sweetness, nurturing and light in the beginning, followed later by evil patriarchies. Some white feminists even posit an original "goddess" under which all was sweetness, before evil male gods took over. Such notions may appeal to the European mind, but in Africa however, one of the oldest human cultures, the San, did not start out with any "goddess" of sweetness, but a male creator, who was and is a nurturer and benefactor of man.
In like manner assorted white feminists argue that certain cultural patterns- such as African women in certain tribes doing most of the agriculture versus men who herd, hunt and fish as typical of the vile and oppressive male patriarchy. In fact, in said tribes, it was African men who did the heavy forest clearing for planting, and after the women did the agricultural work, they also controlled marketing of the produce.(R.O. COllins, Problems in African History, 2005) This was a major source of income and indeed POWER for the African women involved and not at all the naive, one dimensional white feminist narrative of "oppression", with its supposed "universal" application.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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In ancient Egyptians times, the mother is the one who watched the household and cared for the children. The Egyptian children did have toys and liked to play, but most of the children spent their time preparing themselves for adulthood. As an example, the peasant children spent a lot of their time with the parents working in the field; privileged children would often get a good formal education in order to be army officers or scribes.
posted
One important thing to understand is that family lineage does not necessarily coincide with wielding of power. For example, there are many matrilineal or matrifocal societies where men wield most of the public and political power, but that doesn't mean the women have no power at all or are suppressed.
Another thread on this topic can be found here.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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