Some critics have noted that Herodotus is not always depenable in his observation. However, Herodotus definately did visit ancient Egypt then under Persian occupation, and he did document customs of the ancient Egyptians in worship and funerary pratices. Later writers like Diodorus Siculus also validate alot of what Herodotus said despite the fact of much skepticism.
I was curious if the posters here could help me out in finding and posting quotes from Herodotus,Diodorus Siculus or any others about ancient Egyptian customs and pratices. I am looking for direct quotes from the Greco-Roman sources:
Here are some examples:
Herodotus mentions women wailers during funerarals that place mud on their heads
Mentions festivals to Bastet around Bubastis where women would expose themnselves and others would get intoxicated. He mentions another festival in the Delta where Egyptians carried flames and toches. Also a certain pratices of carrying around a statues with a phallus and a string. The women would work the phallus up and down.
Diodorus Siculus mentions the wailing females at funerals and the same custom of putting mud on the head in signs of mourning.
In The Iliad mentions a custom the corresponds to Beautiful Feast of the Valley. This was a festival where people commemorated their ancestors and gave them food offerings and had a feast over their tomb.
Looking for othr quotes from Greco-Roman historians and travelers about social mores of the ancient Egyptians. For instance, Diodorus Siculus mentions what great parents the ancient Egyptians were to their children. Does anybody have this direct quote?
Also of note is if anybody here can find tomb scenes that correspond to ancient Egyptian pratices.
For instance:
Ramose's tomb shows female wailers at a funeral throwing mud on their heads. Does anybody have a picture of this?
Deir el-Medina tomb of Maatakare shows Anpu with a sieve carrying Maatakare at birth. Does anybody have a picture of this?
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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If you could zoom in on the Ramose tomb you will see the dirt or mud the women are throwing over their head. Here are some more tomb scenes of wailing women.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Wally,thought,or nobody else has anything to add to this thread? Does anybody have quotes from the following Greco-Roman historians.
posted
Let's not leave out his famous description of how the Colchians practiced circumcision in a manner similar to that of Egyptians, amongst other similarities...
"The Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair. ..."
posted
Some comments and observations from Herodotus on Ancient Egyptian customs:
Origin of the Delta - the Egyptians themselves say, and I could see, that the Delta has been formed by the river, and, so to say recently.
Fabulous land - Egypt...far surpases all others in marvels, nor can works so unexpressively great be seen elsewhere.
Men and Women
- the women go to market and do business: the men stay at home and weave. - men carry burdens on their heads, women on their shoulders - women urinate standing, the men crouching - Egyptians use the toilet indoors but eat outside - sons are not forced to support their parents, but daughters are. - no woman is a minister of any god Circumcision - (unlike other peoples) the Egyptians and those who have learned from them are circumcised.
Now, just how accurate is Herodotus on these points, hmmmm?
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 03 May 2005).]
This people for me an African, are a mulatto population not pure black population and I have the colour of those men today and I still will tell you, I am not pure AE, no one is. But defintely the ones in Egypt and about a million people/ in North SUDAN are the decendants of AE , mixed with others.
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: This people for me an African, are a mulatto population not pure black population and I have the colour of those men today and I still will tell you, I am not pure AE, no one is. But defintely the ones in Egypt and about a million people/ in North SUDAN are the decendants of AE , mixed with others.
The picture was posted to document AE funerary practices, not 'racial purity' whatever that means.
Perhaps you should start a new thread devoted to 'racial purity?'
posted
I'm not quite certain if this is what you're looking for but I'm currently doing a project pertaining to ancient egypt, and some of the things I happened across might be of some help, limited as it may be. Herodotus, The Histories 2.35-36: http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/hist10.html
That was a critique of egyptian culture from The Histories, though seemingly unbased. That series of articles discusses why it's so inaccurate and odd, but I'm sure, since you seem to be researching this a bit, that you're already quite familiar with their perception of the world and the beings/barbarians furthest from them, or rather the 'center.' Also I'm editing this post since I just found a closer picture of the wailing women you'd mentioned at http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/ramose/e_ramose.htm then find and click the picture or just paste this into the navigation bar and hit enter: javascript:PopupImage('ramose_tb_39.jpg') Again, I may have missed what you're looking for entirely, but I just thought I'd put the information out there anyway.
[This message has been edited by spluffy (edited 15 June 2005).]
posted
spluffy, not eveything Herodotus got right,but he was definately correct about many funerary pratices. Herodotus and Diodorus Siculus described in detail that women during funerals would rip their clothes,throw mud on their heads,and wail. These pratices still go on in parts of rural Egypt. His views were biased and definately sometimes tinged with an ethnocentric bias.
The festivals he described such as the ones with the lamps at the Delta or the ones dedicated to Bastet around the eastern Delta. You might still be able to see such customs where women expose their breasts or sit upon statues.
Thanks for bringing this link to our attention.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by AMR1: This people for me an African, are a mulatto population not pure black population and I have the colour of those men today and I still will tell you, I am not pure AE, no one is. But defintely the ones in Egypt and about a million people/ in North SUDAN are the decendants of AE , mixed with others.
1ARM, enough with the mixed mulatto crap! These are Upper Egyptians from dynastic times with no mixture! I gave my responses on your bewilderment thread. As I said, there are people in Ethiopian and Kenya with that color, and anyway this Ausar's thread is not about that!
Ausar I will try to find some sources.
Posts: 26352 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yes, well, I only started looking at these articles yesterday (tuesday), and I'm just a high school student, so I'm not entirely familiar with the intricacies of the Greco-Roman scholars, or whichever category Herodotus and Diodorus Siculus would fall into. I hadn't even heard of them before yesterday, and the way the page was written I got the impression they were simply making baseless assumptions and speculations. This thread's shown me otherwise, thankfully.
Also, I edited my last post to include osirisnet.net, but on the chance that nobody noticed the revision I'll post it here as well. The link contains an article which I haven't read about the tomb of Ramose, along with a variety of pictures: http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/ramose/e_ramose.htm In particular I'd like to point out javascript:PopupImage('ramose_tb_39.jpg') and javascript:PopupImage('ramose_tb_44.jpg') those two have larger images of the mourning women, and the page itself has most, if not all, images from the tomb and walls surrounding.
I wish you luck in your search, and sincerely hope the information I found was of some help to you.
[This message has been edited by spluffy (edited 15 June 2005).]
Concerning Egypt itself I shall extend my remarks to a great length, because there is no country that possesses so many wonders, nor any that has such a number of works which defy description. Not only is the climate different from that of the rest of the world, and the rivers unlike any other rivers, but the people also, in most of their manners and customs, exactly reverse the common practice of mankind. The women attend the markets and trade, while the men sit at home at the loom; and here, while the rest of the world works the woof up the warp, the Egyptians work it down; the women likewise carry burthens upon their shoulders, while the men carry them upon their heads. They eat their food out of doors in the streets, but retire for private purposes to their houses, giving as a reason that what is unseemly, but necessary, ought to be done in secret, but what has nothing unseemly about it, should be done openly. A woman cannot serve the priestly office, either for god or goddess, but men are priests to both; sons need not support their parents unless they choose, but daughters must, whether they choose or no.
In other countries the priests have long hair, in Egypt their heads are shaven; elsewhere it is customary, in mourning, for near relations to cut their hair close: the Egyptians, who wear no hair at any other time, when they lose a relative, let their beards and the hair of their heads grow long. All other men pass their lives separate from animals, the Egyptians have animals always living with them; others make barley and wheat their food; it is a disgrace to do so in Egypt, where the grain they live on is spelt, which some call zea. Dough they knead with their feet; but they mix mud, and even take up dirt, with their hands. They are the only people in the world- they at least, and such as have learnt the practice from them- who use circumcision. Their men wear two garments apiece, their women but one. They put on the rings and fasten the ropes to sails inside; others put them outside. When they write or calculate, instead of going, like the Greeks, from left to right, they move their hand from right to left; and they insist, notwithstanding, that it is they who go to the right, and the Greeks who go to the left. They have two quite different kinds of writing, one of which is called sacred, the other common.
They are religious to excess, far beyond any other race of men, and use the following ceremonies:- They drink out of brazen cups, which they scour every day: there is no exception to this practice. They wear linen garments, which they are specially careful to have always fresh washed. They practise circumcision for the sake of cleanliness, considering it better to be cleanly than comely. The priests shave their whole body every other day, that no lice or other impure thing may adhere to them when they are engaged in the service of the gods. Their dress is entirely of linen, and their shoes of the papyrus plant: it is not lawful for them to wear either dress or shoes of any other material. They bathe twice every day in cold water, and twice each night; besides which they observe, so to speak, thousands of ceremonies. They enjoy, however, not a few advantages. They consume none of their own property, and are at no expense for anything; but every day bread is baked for them of the sacred corn, and a plentiful supply of beef and of goose's flesh is assigned to each, and also a portion of wine made from the grape. Fish they are not allowed to eat; and beans- which none of the Egyptians ever sow, or eat, if they come up of their own accord, either raw or boiled- the priests will not even endure to look on, since they consider it an unclean kind of pulse. Instead of a single priest, each god has the attendance of a college, at the head of which is a chief priest; when one of these dies, his son is appointed in his room.
Male kine are reckoned to belong to Epaphus, and are therefore tested in the following manner:- One of the priests appointed for the purpose searches to see if there is a single black hair on the whole body, since in that case the beast is unclean. He examines him all over, standing on his legs, and again laid upon his back; after which he takes the tongue out of his mouth, to see if it be clean in respect of the prescribed marks (what they are I will mention elsewhere); he also inspects the hairs of the tail, to observe if they grow naturally. If the animal is pronounced clean in all these various points, the priest marks him by twisting a piece of papyrus round his horns, and attaching thereto some sealing-clay, which he then stamps with his own signet-ring. After this the beast is led away; and it is forbidden, under the penalty of death, to sacrifice an animal which has not been marked in this way.
The following is their manner of sacrifice:- They lead the victim, marked with their signet, to the altar where they are about to offer it, and setting the wood alight, pour a libation of wine upon the altar in front of the victim, and at the same time invoke the god. Then they slay the animal, and cutting off his head, proceed to flay the body. Next they take the head, and heaping imprecations on it, if there is a market-place and a body of Greek traders in the city, they carry it there and sell it instantly; if, however, there are no Greeks among them, they throw the head into the river. The imprecation is to this effect:- They pray that if any evil is impending either over those who sacrifice, or over universal Egypt, it may be made to fall upon that head. These practices, the imprecations upon the heads, and the libations of wine, prevail all over Egypt, and extend to victims of all sorts; and hence the Egyptians will never eat the head of any animal.
The disembowelling and burning are, however, different in different sacrifices. I will mention the mode in use with respect to the goddess whom they regard as the greatest, and honour with the chiefest festival. When they have flayed their steer they pray, and when their prayer is ended they take the paunch of the animal out entire, leaving the intestines and the fat inside the body; they then cut off the legs, the ends of the loins, the shoulders, and the neck; and having so done, they fill the body of the steer with clean bread, honey, raisins, figs, frankincense, myrrh, and other aromatics. Thus filled, they burn the body, pouring over it great quantities of oil. Before offering the sacrifice they fast, and while the bodies of the victims are being consumed they beat themselves. Afterwards, when they have concluded this part of the ceremony, they have the other parts of the victim served up to them for a repast.
The male kine, therefore, if clean, and the male calves, are used for sacrifice by the Egyptians universally; but the females they are not allowed to sacrifice, since they are sacred to Isis. The statue of this goddess has the form of a woman but with horns like a cow, resembling thus the Greek representations of Io; and the Egyptians, one and all, venerate cows much more highly than any other animal. This is the reason why no native of Egypt, whether man or woman, will give a Greek a kiss, or use the knife of a Greek, or his spit, or his cauldron, or taste the flesh of an ox, known to be pure, if it has been cut with a Greek knife. When kine die, the following is the manner of their sepulture:- The females are thrown into the river; the males are buried in the suburbs of the towns, with one or both of their horns appearing above the surface of the ground to mark the place. When the bodies are decayed, a boat comes, at an appointed time, from the island called Prosopitis,- which is a portion of the Delta, nine schoenes in circumference,- and calls at the several cities in turn to collect the bones of the oxen. Prosopitis is a district containing several cities; the name of that from which the boats come is Atarbechis. Venus has a temple there of much sanctity. Great numbers of men go forth from this city and proceed to the other towns, where they dig up the bones, which they take away with them and bury together in one place. The same practice prevails with respect to the interment of all other cattle- the law so determining; they do not slaughter any of them.
As you can see, he has a few things wrong. Like there being no priestesses which we know is not the case. Plus, when he states that men sit to urinate and women stand and all that, it is just an exaggeration of how women's roles are not suppressed as it is in Greece. Overall, Herodotus was describing Egyptian practices, but in contrast to his own Greek customs. He tries to make it as though Egyptian practices were backwards or the opposite of Greek ones.
Posts: 26352 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Herodotus also states that in Egypt nobody ''knew the vine'' for winemaking. We know this was in error,for depicted on AE tomb scenes are people smashing and picking grapes for wine making.
Herodotus and others should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism. We should use first hand sources like the tombs and papyri,and also second hand sources like the Greco-Roman historians and travelers. Both can be used and counter balanced. Most importanly we should also use linguistics to reconstruct the AE culture.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Some critics have noted that Herodotus is not always depenable in his observation. However, Herodotus definately did visit ancient Egypt then under Persian occupation, and he did document customs of the ancient Egyptians in worship and funerary pratices. Later writers like Diodorus Siculus also validate alot of what Herodotus said despite the fact of much skepticism.
I was curious if the posters here could help me out in finding and posting quotes from Herodotus,Diodorus Siculus or any others about ancient Egyptian customs and pratices. I am looking for direct quotes from the Greco-Roman sources:
Here are some examples:
Herodotus mentions women wailers during funerarals that place mud on their heads
Mentions festivals to Bastet around Bubastis where women would expose themnselves and others would get intoxicated. He mentions another festival in the Delta where Egyptians carried flames and toches. Also a certain pratices of carrying around a statues with a phallus and a string. The women would work the phallus up and down.
Diodorus Siculus mentions the wailing females at funerals and the same custom of putting mud on the head in signs of mourning.
In The Iliad mentions a custom the corresponds to Beautiful Feast of the Valley. This was a festival where people commemorated their ancestors and gave them food offerings and had a feast over their tomb.
Looking for othr quotes from Greco-Roman historians and travelers about social mores of the ancient Egyptians. For instance, Diodorus Siculus mentions what great parents the ancient Egyptians were to their children. Does anybody have this direct quote?
Also of note is if anybody here can find tomb scenes that correspond to ancient Egyptian pratices.
For instance:
Ramose's tomb shows female wailers at a funeral throwing mud on their heads. Does anybody have a picture of this?
Deir el-Medina tomb of Maatakare shows Anpu with a sieve carrying Maatakare at birth. Does anybody have a picture of this?
The AE funeral scene is quite similar to the funeraly practices of a few african peoples. I went to an african museum and noticed this similarity.
The way Hawas can try to out right lie and deny the strong African connection of ancient Egyptians to other africans is beyond me!
Good topic!
Posts: 318 | From: PA. USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Keins: The AE funeral scene is quite similar to the funeraly practices of a few african peoples. I went to an african museum and noticed this similarity.
The way Hawas can try to out right lie and deny the strong African connection of ancient Egyptians to other africans is beyond me!
Good topic!
Plus, in a museum that exhibited African art I have also seen small wooden statuettes that are icons of male fertility and virility. They also have large erect phalluses, and some of them even have the movable kind with the string that Ausar has described!
Hawass is just suffering from a serious severe case of denial. But his denial is only hurting him in helping to understand the very culture of the ancient people he studies.
Hawass the King of De'Nial!!
Posts: 26352 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:The AE funeral scene is quite similar to the funeraly practices of a few african peoples. I went to an african museum and noticed this similarity.
The way Hawas can try to out right lie and deny the strong African connection of ancient Egyptians to other africans is beyond me!
For a long time when I was younger, I didn't really even associate egypt with africa at all, never actually realizing egypt was a country in africa. And even after looking at it in depth it's easy to see why I never made that distinction, simply because Israel had such a profound influence on egyptians through trade that egypt has no noticable African or Middle eastern traits. And when I say noticable I use the term lightly, since even a slightly closer look immediately reveals traces of both. It also may be it's biblical significance that makes it seem so separated from the two cultures. So what I'm saying is that I can understand the Hawas perspective, but it's about as well based as extraterrestrials building the pyramids. Then again, that's a whole other topic. I haven't read through the whole thing but it seems to me that this article has various points on egyptian ethnicity. http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/1314 Speaking of being on a whole other topic, i've gotten rather distracted, so I'll get back to the focus of this post...
quote:Deir el-Medina tomb of Maatakare shows Anpu with a sieve carrying Maatakare at birth. Does anybody have a picture of this?
I've looked around a little, but can't seem to find anything on the internet, aside from what seems to be Maatakare being called Hathspesut, which only turns up a search when spelled Hatshepsut. I'll try a few more search engines, but if I still can't find anything I'll move on to finding that quote from Diodorus Siculus on parenting.
[This message has been edited by spluffy (edited 16 June 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by spluffy: The AE funeral scene is quite similar to the funeraly practices of a few african peoples. I went to an african museum and noticed this similarity.
The way Hawas can try to out right lie and deny the strong African connection of ancient Egyptians to other africans is beyond me!
For a long time when I was younger, I didn't really even associate egypt with africa at all, never actually realizing egypt was a country in africa. And even after looking at it in depth it's easy to see why I never made that distinction, simply because Israel had such a profound influence on egyptians through trade that egypt has no noticable African or Middle eastern traits. And when I say noticable I use the term lightly, since even a slightly closer look immediately reveals traces of both. It also may be it's biblical significance that makes it seem so separated from the two cultures. So what I'm saying is that I can understand the Hawas perspective, but it's about as well based as extraterrestrials building the pyramids. Then again, that's a whole other topic.[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about?! Israel never had a profound influence on the Egyptians, no one had until the Arab invasions. Egyptians were very culturally conservative and rarely adopted any traits from foreigners. Also, Israel is part of the Middle-East, so even if they did have "Israeli" influence how could you say it had no Middle-Eastern traits?! You must be one confused individual!
I too at first didn't make the connection to Africa, but that was only because I didn't know anything about African culture. I suggest you do more research on the cultures of Africa! If you do, you would realize that everything about Egyptian civilization and culture exudes African! Everything from their religious beliefs and rituals, to their social practices, to even the way they dress and their jewelry is African.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 16 June 2005).]
Posts: 26352 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti, don't be so defensive. The person admitted they were open to the possibility,and once they observed they could see the African chracteristics. Even early Egyptologist pointed out that the most defining African chracteristic of AE civlization was divine kingship. Many are know admiting the hed-seb festivals of the pharaoah also has African chracteristics.
AE culture was not as isolate or static. They did adopt some technology of the surrounding people,and even some cultural chracteristics. Most of this occured around the Middle to New Kingdom period. Look at many of the musical instruments and you will discover that many are infact foreign origin. Even certain magical spells are traced back to Caanite or Phonecian and even Nubian origins.
You have to realize that most people in the world today learn of Egypt either from movies or from the Bible. Very rarely do they interpret Egypt from other sources. So the image becomes clouded. African history or culture is not well known to the general public,and so also distorted images.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Well I only say what I find, and with all the new information I've been presented with it's only natural that I'd confuse some of it. I haven't had the time to look into the things ausar was looking for, but i'm hoping to take a little time tonight to sift through the information I have available to hopefully find some of the requested things. A latter added post-script: I'm going to go to the library later today to see if they have a copy of "'Diodorus On Egypt Translated From The Ancient Greek By Edwin Murphy'; Jefferson, N.C.: McFarland, 1985." If so, it won't be a problem to pull the requested quote from there, as soon as tonight.
[This message has been edited by spluffy (edited 21 June 2005).]
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