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I would like to deal with some infos/hypothesises about Kushite civilization/ language from Claude RILLY's 2007 book: "La langue du royaume de Méroé : Un panorama de la plus ancienne culture écrite d'Afrique subsaharienne".
Along with those infos, I'll try to post which evidence he put forward to back up his claims- which will be difficult since his work isn't actually a "demonstration", neither it is a simple description of the known facts, kind of confusing IMO-so posters will somehow be able to challenge his claims.
He still has to publish other books dealing with his theory, so I guess we'll have to wait a little to get the whole of his argumentation (I'm currently reading his Ph.D thesis, though).
Some infos are about pronounciation, others about meanings and others about historical processi.
1)About "Kush/Kesh"'s pronounciation -Claim: "The pronounciation of the name of Kerma/Napata/Meroe's civilization is actually kw-e-S (the first sign is not a velar as show the use of the other nor an uvular as seems to show and is only retranscribed before rounded vowels in alphabetic retranscriptions last sign while the last is not always transcribed by s or sh but by an intermediary sound which is likely a retroflex "s" due to the symmetry of this trait found in Meroitic phonemes according to RILLY); qesto>QaSatu "the Kushite(s)" and personal name of many inhabitants, Napatean King Kashta being one of them.
2)About the term "Nubian" -Claim: "The term "Nubian" is confusing but this confusion matches with the Egyptian "Nhhsi" but the "Nubian" term used by modern Egyptologists doesn't come from Egyptian city Nbw, but from Kushite's neighbours, the "Nob". Perhaps many posters on here were aware of it, but I wasn't and that is not what I remember reading from some posters on this board.
3)Evidence for Proto Meroitic names in Egyptian MK: Identity of absence & presence of phonemes in XIIth dynasty's "Nubian" toponyms & Meroitic phonology reconstructed by RILLY. -Abundance of anthroponyms with -y suffix resembling Meroitic suffix -ye found in many names. -Correspondance between distribution of Egyptic graphemes/phonemes & their Meroitic counterparts; Some names from Crocodilopolis' list from the Fayum area (ME) strikingly resembles later Meroitic anthroponyms regularly agreeing with Meroitic/Egyptic graphemic correspondances; Egyptic/Meroitic 3bss/Abseye mgy/mXeye rsry/dsdye r3k3y/Dokeli rwk3ty/ Doketone s3tqt/setki; sitkid; sikemoli qr3m/Qeremye qty/Ktoye t3ny/teneye/tneyi/ tneyi-d-mni trt3/terite-qse; Terit-nide; terite-dxetey T3k3y/Tekye; Tekeye -m-g-/mk "god(dess)" m-s-; mS/ ms "solar god" mt3; mTy/ mte "small, young" r3k3 rwk3/ doke k3r; qr3; q-r-/ kore "king" He assumes this is a list of Kerma's rulers written for Hyksos rulers.
4) Deities' names On the basis of other similar constructions, RILLY claims the hieroglyphic Sapu-[nTr(Meroitic mk)], an hypostasis of Osiris, is an attestation of Kushite god Sebiumeker, which also assimilated with Osiris ; the final Meroitic <r> being possibly the transcription of the Meroitic definite article. Ms=Mash is supposed to be a solar deity according to North Eastern Sudanic evidence Amnp= Imn-n-Ip.t=Amun of Luxor (haplography) Amnote=Imn-n-nw.t Amun of the city (Thebes) ( haplography) Amnpt=Imn-n-npt (Napata) (haplography) ApeDemak apede-mk the God Apede
5)The original name of Meroe It would have been MeDewi (D=retroflex d), lather shifting to BeDewi Egyptian Dw w'b"Pure mountain" would be the source of Meroitic tw: webi "pure mountain"(Gebel Barkal)
6)Kharamadoye for who was written the last known Meroitic text would have been one of the Noba rulers who had seized power in Lower Nubia after Kushite dominance had weakened, although some scholars have argued about him being a Blemmye (hence the "mado" element in his name, compared to the Blemmye deity "Mandulis").
7)On the continuation of Meroitic in modern Sudan Some survivals of toponyms such as below, but other proposals remain largely speculative: Ancient aDomn>Arminna Ancient Atiye>Addai (Sedeinga's other name)
8)The Meroitic cursive signs would be a derivation of an Upper Egyptian/Ptolemaic demotic (3rd century BC) while the hieroglyphic signs might date from the 2nd century BC. RILLY roughly explains that unlike older theories pointed out, Meroitic is a syllabary, and shows in many respects ingenious corrections of Egyptic imperfections.
Any thoughts or questions?
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posted
^He did hint on using typological similarity, including names of persons, gods and so forth, between Egyptic texts and their Meroitic counterparts in his translated article posted online. So, I guess these would constitute as a few more specific examples of what he was talking about at time.
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quote:About the term "Nubian" -Claim: "The term "Nubian" is confusing but this confusion matches with the Egyptian "Nhhsi" but the "Nubian" term used by modern Egyptologists doesn't come from Egyptian city Nbw, but from Kushite's neighbours, the "Nob". Perhaps many posters on here were aware of it, but I wasn't and that is not what I remember reading from some posters on this board.
The problem with this is that the term Nob has no known -native- Nilo Saharan etymology.
And it also does not exist prior to 200 BC.
The word actually means "slave", and it's meaning as such comes from the Romans and Greeks, who enslaved Upper Nile Valley AFricans, therefore we are returned to the question of the actual origin of the term, whose known etymology from Pre-dynastic Egypt goes back to Nub meaning gold.
In order to claim that it's origin is Nob and not Nub Rilly needs to prove that Post Dynastic -Nob- is unrelated to Predynastic Nub. [in which case, the whole notion of the Gold of Nubia - ie - TaSeti, would simply be a coincidence?]
Does Rilly have any such proof?
Even if we were to accept Rilly at face value he has simply substituted one misnomer for another.
In his vision the term Nubia post dates Kush and does not refer to the Kushites, or to Southern Egyptians ie - Ta Seti, but to the Noba, which still means acknolwedging that virtually every reference to Nubia in ws.t text remains utterly hopelessly confounding and wrong.
I think Rilly is really searching for a more sensible explanation of and ill conceived concept, but when he's done with his explanation, we are still left with and ill conceived concept.
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Thanks for this discussion of Rilly's work. I look forward to further discussion of the text.
I must disagree with Rilly's identification of Nubians as authors of the Kalabsha inscription. I deciphered this inscription some time ago. It is about a Blemmye ruler called Kharamadoye.
The Nubians did not take control of the region constituing the Meroitic Empire until 450, when king Silko of the Noubodaes conquered the last king of the Blemmyes.
The Meroites and Blemmyes were very intimate. Both Meroite and Blemmye envoys jointly visited Egypt around 336AD. In the Kalabsha inscription, it is pointed out that Kharamadoye's father was Patatekaye, and his son and successor was Yisameniye. This was an interesting finding from the Kalabsha text because there is a pidgen Greek inscription found in Kalabsha of Icemne, who researchers believe was probably a reference to Yisameniye.
If you would like to know more about the Kalabsha inscription and the Blemmye relationship with the Meroites you can check out my decipherment at the following site:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . I must disagree with Rilly's identification of Nubians as authors of the Kalabsha inscription. I deciphered this inscription some time ago.
Your decipherment remains questionable, as per our last exchanges on the matter, and points on which I remain unwavered.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . I must disagree with Rilly's identification of Nubians as authors of the Kalabsha inscription. I deciphered this inscription some time ago.
Your decipherment remains questionable, as per our last exchanges on the matter, and points on which I remain unwavered.
If this is your opinion fine. But I am inviting those people interested in the Blemmyan influence in the Meroitic Empire to check out the article above.
It isn't a matter of 'opinion', it is a matter of dealing with the 'facts' I brought to light, and your incapacity to address them.
quote:Clyde Winters:
But I am inviting those people interested in the Blemmyan influence in the Meroitic Empire to check out the article above.
Well, Rilly according to Midogbe, is proposing that this Kharamadoye personality could have been a Noba after Kushitic rule, just as other scholars propose that he could have been 'Blemmyan'. Either way, everyone is talking about rule after Meroe's decline. He may be wrong or right about this, based on close scrutiny of what either scholars specifically put out in way of evidence, but it doesn't diminish Rilly's 'multicontextual' approach to comparative linguistics.
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Mystery Solver: Could you please link me to your old discussion on Meroitic's linguistic position?
rasol: As far as I know there is no evidence in the book of RILLY's claim. He stated that Greeks called an ethnic group from the Middle Nile area "Noubai, Noubades, Nobatai" though. Does anyone know how old are these attestations?
Is there any explicit statement about the origins of "Nubia" in Roman litterature?
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Your decipherment remains questionable, as per our last exchanges on the matter, and points on which I remain unwavered.
And this is something new?? LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Getting back to RILLY's point n°2, It seems that during Late Kingdom, the words for nb "gold" & Nbw.t "city" had distinct phonetic realizations as shown below, the city being realized with a consonantic cluster (Vowel+) Nb+Vowel (cf. Coptic Embo, Enbo; Greek Ombos;Latin Ambi/Ombo )while the ethnonym would most likely have been pronounced with a vowel between n & b (cf. Meroitic Nob, Nubian Nob, Roman Nubia(??? don't know plz correct me if necessary),Greek Noubai), etc.
There also seems to have distinction in the realization of nbw "gold", and of Nubians/Noba as tends to show Meroitic distinct writings of the words nb(r) vs nob. Old Nubian also had a word napi for "gold piece" that differed from the Noba ethnonym.
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Getting back to RILLY's point n°2, It seems that during Late Kingdom, the words for nb "gold" & Nbw.t "city" had distinct phonetic realizations as shown below, the city being realized with a consonantic cluster (Vowel+) Nb+Vowel (cf. Coptic Embo, Enbo; Greek Ombos;Latin Ambi/Ombo )while the ethnonym would most likely have been pronounced with a vowel between n & b (cf. Meroitic Nob, Nubian Nob, Roman Nubia(??? don't know plz correct me if necessary),Greek Noubai), etc.
The lack of vowel in between n & b (?) in "Nbw.t" and its presence thereof, in "Nb", is based what? Coptic texts? Please clarify.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
There also seems to have distinction in the realization of nbw "gold", and of Nubians/Noba as tends to show Meroitic distinct writings of the words nb(r) vs nob.
Old Nubian also had a word napi for "gold piece" that differed from the Noba ethnonym.
So, I take it that "nbw" [Kemetic?] and "nb(r)" [Meroitic?] have different meanings? Or, are you saying the "nbw" seems to correspond with Meroitic "nb(r)", while the term "nb" is also attested to in Meroitic, but presumably with a distinct meaning from that of 'nb(r)' or vice verca, with 'nob' switching places with 'nb(r)' in the just mentioned scenario? Please clarify.
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^^ Yes, my interpretation of lack/presence of vowels in the words above is based on vocalized scripts evidence. I think that nbw & Meroitic Nb(r) have the same meaning (gold) and are related, but nob is attested in Meroitic with another meaning (Noba people) and another writing.
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^ Yes, my interpretation of lack/presence of vowels in the words above is based on vocalized scripts evidence. I think that nbw & Meroitic Nb(r) have the same meaning (gold) and are related, but nob is attested in Meroitic with another meaning (Noba people) and another writing.
In what Meroitic text will you find the term nob for Nubian?
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^ Indeed, I'm lost. It seems to me to be almost arbitrary declarations of a is really related to c instead of b, but seldom for descernable reason, at least that I can follow.
quote:It seems that during Late Kingdom, the words for nb "gold" & Nbw.t "city" had distinct phonetic realizations
But Nbw.t city goes back to the predynastic, it's not from the late Kingdom.
Midogbe, can you clarify in your opinion....what is the etymology of the word 'nob'?
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Come to think of it, in which primary text(s) is 'nbw.t' as reference to a city, first attested to?
In relation to what Rasol just stated above, about Nbw.t going back to the predynastic period and not from the Late Kingdom, in response to this from Midogbe:
It seems that during Late Kingdom, the words for nb "gold" & Nbw.t "city" had distinct phonetic realizations
^I don't see any indication about the temporal origins of either term in the said period from that statement alone per se, as opposed to the emphasis on the supposed distinct 'phonetic' traits, as it pertains to the placement of vowels, and on which I had asked for examples of specific texts attesting to this in my last post, but my question is:
Is it implied that both words at root mean the same thing, i.e. 'gold', but somehow evolved distinctive phonetic traits through time, and by the said Dynastic period? I mean later on you, Midogbe, go onto affirm that "nbw", meaning 'gold' [and which doesn't seem to be much different in spelling from the "nbw" in "Nbw.t"], corresponds with Meroitic "nb(r)", while 'nob' seems to be another word on its own in Meroitic.
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Clyde Winters: I'll try to come up with more data later, but RILLY (2007) points out an instance of Nob being a people under the authority of a king different of Meroe's (a statuette found in Meroe by a guy named GARSTANG, the inscription qo: qore nob-o-lo "this one, is the King of Noba" on its chest).
rasol & Mystery Solver: My nbw "gold" / nbw.t "the city" distinction was not purposed to show that the two words don't originally derive from the same root.
However, my point was that at the time of Roman's supposed borrowing of an Egyptian word (Late Kingdom) to apply it to some Nile Valley people (Nubians), the name of the city (nbw.t) was regularly phonetically different from the contemporary ethnonym (nob), which IMO seems to show that the latter doesn't derive from the former as I put it out in the very first post of the thread.
Also, I tend to believe that since the two words were present in both Meroitic & Old Nubian (relatively diachronically close to the supposed borrowing of the word by Romans) with two different realizations (nob vs nb(r) / napi vs noba(???)) nbw "gold" and the ethnonym "Noba" are likely from distinct roots.
Please remember that all of this is by no way definitive, only being based on scanty evidence, but that's the most logical conclusion I can come with based on the available data.
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quote: the name of the city (nbw.t) was regularly phonetically different from the contemporary ethnonym (nob)[/, which IMO seems to show that the latter doesn't derive from the former
The issue isn't whether nob derives from the city nub.t, but whether both derive from nub which means gold.
If you can't provide a distinct etymology for nob and then show that it is the basis for nub [which you haven't done], then you are really overreaching in terms of speculation on admittedly scanty evidence in my opinion.
To this point, only one root meaning is provided for all the terms in question - which is mdw ntr for gold.
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^^ Well, that nob isn't likely derived from the name of the Egyptian city nbw.t was the point I made on the very first post of the thread because I had read it before on this board.
That languages diachronically close to Late Egyptian display two different graphic/phonetic realizations for nbw "gold" and nob "nubian" makes me reluctant to believe that nob "Nubian" apparently appearing in texts around the Late Kingdom times was originally a borrowing from nbw "gold".
Just my opinion.
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Clyde Winters: I'll try to come up with more data later, but RILLY (2007) points out an instance of Nob being a people under the authority of a king different of Meroe's (a statuette found in Meroe by a guy named GARSTANG, the inscription qo: qore nob-o-lo "this one, is the King of Noba" on its chest).
rasol & Mystery Solver: My nbw "gold" / nbw.t "the city" distinction was not purposed to show that the two words don't originally derive from the same root.
However, my point was that at the time of Roman's supposed borrowing of an Egyptian word (Late Kingdom) to apply it to some Nile Valley people (Nubians), the name of the city (nbw.t) was regularly phonetically different from the contemporary ethnonym (nob), which IMO seems to show that the latter doesn't derive from the former as I put it out in the very first post of the thread.
Also, I tend to believe that since the two words were present in both Meroitic & Old Nubian (relatively diachronically close to the supposed borrowing of the word by Romans) with two different realizations (nob vs nb(r) / napi vs noba(???)) nbw "gold" and the ethnonym "Noba" are likely from distinct roots.
Please remember that all of this is by no way definitive, only being based on scanty evidence, but that's the most logical conclusion I can come with based on the available data.
Thanks for the information. When you have the time please send me more information on the statue discussed by Rilley.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
rasol & Mystery Solver: My nbw "gold" / nbw.t "the city" distinction was not purposed to show that the two words don't originally derive from the same root.
However, my point was that at the time of Roman's supposed borrowing of an Egyptian word (Late Kingdom) to apply it to some Nile Valley people (Nubians), the name of the city (nbw.t) was regularly phonetically different from the contemporary ethnonym (nob), which IMO seems to show that the latter doesn't derive from the former as I put it out in the very first post of the thread.
Also, I tend to believe that since the two words were present in both Meroitic & Old Nubian (relatively diachronically close to the supposed borrowing of the word by Romans) with two different realizations (nob vs nb(r) / napi vs noba(???)) nbw "gold" and the ethnonym "Noba" are likely from distinct roots.
Please remember that all of this is by no way definitive, only being based on scanty evidence, but that's the most logical conclusion I can come with based on the available data.
Midogbe, you are able to discern the context of Rasol's post from that of mine, right? For instance, as I've noted, I realize what you saying about "nob" and "nb(r)", with the latter being presumably related to "nbw" in Egyptic. In your reply before this one, we had gone through affirming where you and I stand, in terms of our understanding of what you're getting at, concerning the terms "nbw" or "nb(r)"[Meroitic] referencing 'gold' vs. "nob" [Also in Meroitic] as an ethnonym, along with the Old Nubian having its own example of differences between the term referencing 'gold' and that representing an ethnonym.
So, apparently the above isn't the issue of my last post; rather, my post was trying to affirm your understanding of the relationship between "Nbw", "Nbw.t", and "Nb(r)" [Meroitic], whereby these words likely stem from the root term 'nbw', meaning gold, notwithstanding the phonetic distinction [vowel placement] between say "nbw" and "Nbw.t", AND to confirm that you are simply saying that they may have developed into their respective phonetic structures by the Late Kingdom, NOT that the terms themselves originate in the Late Kingdom. And it seems to be that, this is what you were probably getting at, when you wrote:
My nbw "gold" / nbw.t "the city" distinction was not purposed to show that the two words don't originally derive from the same root.
^Now of course here, you didn't directly answer my question, in the sense that, you are NOT saying that they 'don't derive from the same root', but you aren't also straight up saying that they do 'derive from the same root'. This latter situation, is what my post was trying to assess, in terms of how firm you are on that point.
Plus, my post also re-asserts my earlier request for examples of primary texts which allows one to discern the phonetic distinctions between "nb" or "nbw" [gold] and "Nbw.t" [city]. Speaking of which, I'm not sure if 'nb' in your quote below, was a typo meant to be written as 'nbw':
It seems that during Late Kingdom, the words for nb "gold" & Nbw.t "city" had distinct phonetic realizations
...or that 'nb' [gold] is simply meant to be another way of writing 'nbw'.
I'm going through this trouble, because I feel there is a need to discern the situations in Rasol's post and mine, which IMO, may well need to be addressed with these distinctive specifics of the respective posts kept in mind.
On some other notes...
I came across this, concerning early attestations to "nbw", notwithstanding that these are just Old kingdom attestations, specifically the 3rd Kingdom:
IIIrd DYNASTY ROYAL NAMES by Dr. PETER KAPLONY (in R.A.R. I, 1977 p. 146-55)
code:
Horus Za njswt-bity Wr-Za-Khnwm (I.A.F. p. 380, 468, 611) 2 months, 23 days
Horus Netjerykhet njswt-bity nebty Netjerykhet (Ra) Nwb 19 years
Horus Sekhemkhet njswt-bity Nebty Djoserty 6 years
Horus NekhetZa (Zanakht) njswt-bity Nebka (-Ra) Horus Tehenw (.j) Nwb (I.A.F. III n. 806) 19 years
Horus Khaba njswt-bity Shenaka Netjer Nwb 6 years
Horus NebHedjet njswt H(w) Nwb Nebhedjet 24 years tot. c. 74 years)
With respect to the ruler Khaba, for example, we're told...
KHABA (SEDJES ?)
…Khaba is almost absent in any other part of Egypt : few sealings or impressions with the name Khaba have been found at Hierakonpolis (Quibell-Green pt. II pag. 3, 55 and tav. 70,1) or elsewhere (Petrie 'Scrabs and cylinders..' tav. VIII on which it seems that the first occurance of a 'Hor Nubty' royal name can be found - IRT DJED.F - ; the origin of this piece is unknown; Kaplony ( I.A.F. p.173 fig. 805) ; two more bowls with Khaba Horus name inscriptions come from Sahura complex at Abusir and from e the necropolis of Naga ed Deir (Smith , C.A.H. vol.1 pt. 2 (1971) pag. 156); as for Sanakht ,Netheryhet, Huni a seal impression of Khaba has been found at Elephantine (M.D.A.I.K. 43 p. 109, fig 13b tav. 15b).
Courtesy Xoomer.alice.it
^Where, I believe "Nubty" is affiliated with the term "nbw" (?). At any rate, even earlier inscriptional attestations would be a welcome sight, whether on wall reliefs, papyri, pyramid texts, or other monument inscriptions.
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I'll try to come up with more data later, but RILLY (2007) points out an instance of Nob being a people under the authority of a king different of Meroe's (a statuette found in Meroe by a guy named GARSTANG, the inscription qo: qore nob-o-lo "this one, is the King of Noba" on its chest).
I checked out my notes and found that there are a number of bound figures that represented Noba. The inscription on the statuette found by Garstang Qo: qor e nob ol o reads: " King Qo, commence to register the grand Noba". There is also a trussed figure from the Temple of Amun that states that Nob lo e Neqe = " Nob solitary register at this moment" or "Register the solitary Noba at this moment". Another small figure has the inscription E de qe Nob= "Register indeed act Nob" or Act to register indeed the Noba".
This supports the view that the Noba was in constant war with the Kushites. But the Noba were never part of the Meroitic Empire. Ptolomy, noted in the mid-2nd Century AD, that the Nubae/Noba who lived on the West bank of the Nile were not subject to the Kushites. See: Derek Welsby, The Kingdom of Kush (see: pages 60-61).
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Thanks Clyde Winters for the info. But relying on your translation, I guess one could also not necessarily translate Noba by an ethnonym, right?
Could you detail your translation of the GARSTANG inscription? Do you know earlier Graeco-Roman attestations of the Noba ethnonym?
By the way, do you know the "Répertoire d'Epigraphie Méroïtique"? It''s a database of all Meroitic inscriptions collected by French Egyptologist Jean LECLANT and that I will have access to. If your looking for some one in particular, please let me know.
Mystery Solver: Sorry for the misunderstanding, you got what I meant. About the typo, I was meaning that the ethnonym hadn't the same realization as the toponym during the LK.
I'm going to look through some Nubian/Nilo Saharan reconstruction works to get a more refined argumentation of the supposed nbw/Noba distinction.
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: Thanks Clyde Winters for the info. But relying on your translation, I guess one could also not necessarily translate Noba by an ethnonym, right?
Could you detail your translation of the GARSTANG inscription? Do you know earlier Graeco-Roman attestations of the Noba ethnonym?
By the way, do you know the "Répertoire d'Epigraphie Méroïtique"? It''s a database of all Meroitic inscriptions collected by French Egyptologist Jean LECLANT and that I will have access to. If your looking for some one in particular, please let me know.
Mystery Solver: Sorry for the misunderstanding, you got what I meant. About the typo, I was meaning that the ethnonym hadn't the same realization as the toponym during the LK.
I'm going to look through some Nubian/Nilo Saharan reconstruction works to get a more refined argumentation of the supposed nbw/Noba distinction.
Yes I know about the "Répertoire d'Epigraphie Méroïtique"?. My first article on the Tocharian and Meroitic connection was published in the Journal.
From looking over my notes we usally find N-o-b for the Noba, not nb. But I have been working on the Meroitic language since 1983, so I may have ran accross this combination earlier but right now I can't find any record of this consonantal pattern.
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^^ No no, the R.E.M. is a 3 volumes 2000's publication by LECLANT containing all the recorded Meroitic inscriptions going to that year.
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quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ^^ No no, the R.E.M. is a 3 volumes 2000's publication by LECLANT containing all the recorded Meroitic inscriptions going to that year.
I have not seen this publication. I will try to get over to the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, before the end of the summer and check it out. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Mystery Solver: Sorry for the misunderstanding, you got what I meant.
I'm glad that's been cleared.
quote:Please call be MIDOGBE:
About the typo, I was meaning that the ethnonym hadn't the same realization as the toponym during the LK.
The said "typo" concerning 'nb', should be read as a tentative 'typo', because it may or may not necessarily have been a "typo" per se, but perhaps an alternative way of writing "nbw"; this was the point of *inquiry* in my question, as far as that is concerned. Simply put, if 'nb' doesn't mean gold, in the same way 'nbw' means gold, then perhaps the former would have been an unintentional typo on your part.
quote:Please call me MIDOGBE:
I'm going to look through some Nubian/Nilo Saharan reconstruction works to get a more refined argumentation of the supposed nbw/Noba distinction.
I'll be on the lookout.
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Claude Rilly is a professor of classical languages and literature in Paris. He is also an egyptologist and specialist of meroitic language and civilisation. Claude Rilly has contributed on Greek archaeology in GEO (France), and on meroitic phonology in the Göttinger Miszellen (Germany). He is archaeology editor of Culturekiosque.com.
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^At any rate, I get what you're saying. Perhaps then, you'll get a better handle on the matter and the finer details of the author's case, and keep us posted accordingly.
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posted
I started this thread, but had to take a new account for unknown reasons.
I’m going to a 3 days Nilo-Saharan linguistics conference next week and I’ll probably able to catch RILLY there and ask him a few questions, so if you have any questions you want me to ask him, please let me know before tuesday.
I haven’t seen the official program of the event, but I guess some other known Nilo-Saharan & Meroitic specialists will attend too.
Posts: 181 | Registered: Aug 2007
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I started this thread, but had to take a new account for unknown reasons.
I’m going to a 3 days Nilo-Saharan linguistics conference next week and I’ll probably able to catch RILLY there and ask him a few questions, so if you have any questions you want me to ask him, please let me know before tuesday.
I haven’t seen the official program of the event, but I guess some other known Nilo-Saharan & Meroitic specialists will attend too.
Nothing much at this time, other than perhaps getting a solid idea on what Rilly's proposing for the issues raised herein. I'm sure you'll come up with questions of your own to him, as he gives you the related details. And oh, perhaps some details on the process he used to extract new meanings from cotexts and then re-confirming them again elsewhere in the Meroitic inscriptions under study.
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posted
I just finished reading yet to be published RILLY's article dealing with "Nubian" 's etymology, date of settlement of Nubians (modern sense) in the Nile Valley & Meroitic/Nubians relationships, and will ask if I can post it online.
According to RILLY though, Nubia was first mentioned by Greek Erasthenes & that there is no mention in Ancient literature of Nubia being a reference to "Gold", claim which is definitely based on modern scholars unsubstantiated claims.
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posted
I guess it all depends on precisely who, what, and where one is talking about when bandying the term "Nubia(n)."
I sure hope Rilly isn't suggesting something so ludicrous that AEL has no word nwb meaning gold and they had no such city as Nwbt? Is he? I do hope he realizes his dialectic: if Eratosthenes introduced Nubia then there was no such creation or creatures before then. Hence no independence dynastic Egyptian era Nubia or Nubians.
Anyway this may interest some who are into the confusion
quote:"The earliest occurrence of the name Nubia or Nuba is in the Greek writer Eratosthenes c. 200 BC, who mentions the Nuba as being on the west of the Nile 'as far as the bends of the river'. This should mean as far as the Dongola Reach… The name of the Nuba apparently comes, like so many other tribal names in the Sudan (Berti, Berta, Burgu, etc-) from a word in their own language which means 'slaves'; and it is not impossible that the ancient Egyptian word nub for 'gold' arose from the fact that this metal came to them first from their southern neighbours whom they looked on as slaves… The name Nuba today usually implies an inhabitant of the Nuba Mountains in southern Kordofan inhabited by remnants of peoples of varying language and race, the majority of whom are now negroid. The Nuba Mountains were probably so called after the Brown race of Nubian-speaking immigrants from the steppe country further north, from which they were displaced by nomad Arabs about the 14C AD. The name 'Kordofan' for this steppe country probably comes from a Nubian word kurta meaning 'man' -"
A.J. Arkell A History of the Sudan from the Earliest Times to 1821 London: 1955 pp. 177-78
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^^ No, actually he posits that Noba is a reflex of a Proto North Eastern Sudanic root common to its daughter languages.
The term "Nubian" is expressely used by RILLY to qualify modern "Nubians" who call themselves as such as opposed to Ta-NeHesi that he calls "Middle Nile Valley".
You agree there is no ancient etymology of Noubai tracing it back to AEgyptian "gold"?
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posted
Again I think two distinct things are being blurred into one.
I seriously doubt Eratosthenes had the slightest inkling of the languages spoken "as far as the bends of the river" Nile or what any words in such languages. That Nuba,Berti, Berta, Burgu, or other mid Nile Valley inhabitants called themselves "the slaves" as Arkel postulates is patently preposterous.
So why were non-Nuba called Nubians? An after the fact of Nuba/Nobae(?) northward expansion anachronism maybe? I just don't know.
I don't think anyone knows so I'll stick to Nubian deriving from that area being a major gold supplier and nwb being the AEL word for gold, a word Greco-Latin authors would've been more likely to hear.
Just where besides the Red Sea coasts were Greco-Romans familiar with the mid Nile Valley?
When did they encounter the Kandakes and is that relevant (did all mid Nile valleyers speak the same language)?
How much of the native tongues would those mercenaries who left graffiti on the monuments have brought back home with them?
These are all a few of the kind of questions that when answered (if answerable) will shed light on what Arkel says about Eratosthenes.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Agluza: ^^ No, actually he posits that Noba is a reflex of a Proto North Eastern Sudanic root common to its daughter languages.
The term "Nubian" is expressely used by RILLY to qualify modern "Nubians" who call themselves as such as opposed to Ta-NeHesi that he calls "Middle Nile Valley".
Which "Nubian" groups actually call themselves "Nubians" as an ethnic designation? Don't they have indigenous names that they refer to themselves?
quote:Agluza:
You agree there is no ancient etymology of Noubai tracing it back to AEgyptian "gold"?
I agree with the position that the Egyptic "nb" or "nbw" should be distinquished from the bastardized European appellation of "Nubia". As you were asked momments ago, naturally Rilly isn't saying that the Egyptic term "nb" [term for gold] never existed, right?
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posted
Mystery Solver: You're correct that the global designation of "Nubians" for modern so-called "Nubian" but my point was that regardless of the origin of the ethnonym it became one used by those people from both Sudan & Egypt (whether rural or westernized) alongside with other like Sahidi, etc.
Of course, RILLY didn't claim that Egyptian nbw "gold" didn't exist since he mentioned it as one of the proposal etymologies of "Nubian" that were not firmly established; I'm awaiting the authorization for posting his article which adresses many of the points you & alTakruri raised.
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Mystery Solver: You're correct that the global designation of "Nubians" for modern so-called "Nubian" but my point was that regardless of the origin of the ethnonym it became one used by those people from both Sudan & Egypt (whether rural or westernized) alongside with other like Sahidi, etc.
Actually, that is what I was questioning you on: which specific groups, not exposed to "westerners" much or are living in so-called "western nations", call themselves "Nubians", as opposed to their own indigenous ethnic designations? I see "nubian" appellation pretty much like the "Berber" term, which too isn't used by indigenous Tamazight groups on themselves, but something that Euro folks apply to Tamazight groups collectively, presumably now as a linguist construct.
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posted
I don't know if there are any actually... Even the Nobiin speakers seem to prefer to be called "Mahasi" by other modern Nubian groups such as the Dongolese rather than "Nob-" because of its derogatory meaning associated with slavery. They even call Dongolese Nubians Oshkirii "Enslavers" in return!
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Agluza:
Mystery Solver: You're correct that the global designation of "Nubians" for modern so-called "Nubian" but my point was that regardless of the origin of the ethnonym it became one used by those people from both Sudan & Egypt (whether rural or westernized) alongside with other like Sahidi, etc.
Actually, that is what I was questioning you on: which specific groups, not exposed to "westerners" much or are living in so-called "western nations", call themselves "Nubians", as opposed to their own indigenous ethnic designations? I see "nubian" appellation pretty much like the "Berber" term, which too isn't used by indigenous Tamazight groups on themselves, but something that Euro folks apply to Tamazight groups collectively, presumably now as a linguist construct.
posted
^^ While the designation "Nubian" is nowadays used as a collective ethnonym by different Nubian languages speakers/different people from the Nubian region, the term being originally an ethnic slur from the Meroites, RILLY identified an indigenous common ethnonym to these people found from Ancient Times to nowadays among those people which would be of the "M-K-" type.
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posted
What is the etymology of the term that is supposed to have been a "slur" from Meroites, and what do you mean by "M-K-" type?
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posted
If the term was an ethnic slur why did the Romans refer to these people as Nubae, while the Meroites refer to this group as Noba? Given the use of the term by both nations suggest to me that it must have been the ethnonym this people gave themselves, instead of a slur.
Let's not forget the Noba were never conquered by the Meroites who frequently fought these people as they tried to take Meroite territory.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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What is the etymology of the term that is supposed to have been a "slur" from Meroites, and what do you mean by "M-K-" type?
A follow up is overdue, no?
Ps -
In relation to what was being addressed, i.e. this from you, Agluza:
Originally posted by Agluza:
I don't know if there are any actually... Even the Nobiin speakers seem to prefer to be called "Mahasi" by other modern Nubian groups such as the Dongolese rather than "Nob-" because of its derogatory meaning associated with slavery. They even call Dongolese Nubians Oshkirii "Enslavers" in return!
^ I reckon that this "M-K-" type you speak of, worked as a template for the more modern terms, like the "Mahasi" mentioned above, whereby by "h" in the modern term, would have had the same phonetic effect as the "k" designation would have had in the said "M-K-" type in the ancient presentation (?) To give you an idea of what I'm probing for, take "Kmt" for instance; the "K" in the "Kmt" term, may have actually sounded somewhat like an "h"(?), but not quite.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yes I was referring to the consonantic structure of the ethnonym by "M-K type", which is found among several "Nubian" toponyms & ethnonyms such as Makuria, Migi (original name of Nobatia), Murgi (original name of the Birgid).
I'll get back to it very soon.
Posts: 181 | Registered: Aug 2007
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Yes I was referring to the consonantic structure of the ethnonym by "M-K type", which is found among several "Nubian" toponyms & ethnonyms such as Makuria, Migi (original name of Nobatia), Murgi (original name of the Birgid).
I'll get back to it very soon.
On that note, from the few examples you provided, I can see the correlation in "Makuria" for example, remotely in "Migi" and even more remotely in "Murgi", coincidentally in the order you presented them...but I'll wait for your elaborate examples.
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posted
Actually, by putting the two letters in capital, I wanted to emphasize the fact that the type of consonants found was quite similar in the mentioned languages, though not exactly similar.
For example, /g/ is related to /k/, the only difference between them being the "voiced" trait found in the former.
Note that Rilly didn't attempt to provide a demonstration of the unity of these names in this very article, just suggested it, as opposed to "Noba".
I also asked him his opinion about earlier Egyptologists' claim that "Mahas" was derived from "nHsj", but said that it was unlikely from evidence regarding ancient to modern Nubian languages evolution, especially because the intervocalic "H" would have disappeared long ago in modern Nubian dialects.
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