quote:[u]We're nearly all Celts under the skin[/u]
A MAJOR genetic study of the population of Britain appears to have put an end to the idea of the "Celtic fringe" of Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
Instead, a research team at Oxford University has found the majority of Britons are Celts descended from Spanish tribes who began arriving about 7,000 years ago.
Even in England, about 64 per cent of people are descended from these Celts, outnumbering the descendants of Anglo- Saxons by about three to one.
The proportion of Celts is only slightly higher in Scotland, at 73 per cent. Wales is the most Celtic part of mainland Britain, with 83 per cent.
Previously it was thought that ancient Britons were Celts who came from central Europe, but the genetic connection to populations in Spain provides a scientific basis for part of the ancient Scots' origin myth.
The Declaration of Arbroath of 1320, following the War of Independence against England, tells how the Scots arrived in Scotland after they had "dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes".
Professor Bryan Sykes, a human geneticist at Oxford, said the myth may have been a "residue" in people's memories of the real journey, but added that the majority of people in England were the descendants of the same people who sailed across the Bay of Biscay.
Prof Sykes divided the population into several groups or clans: Oisin for the Celts; Wodan for Anglo-Saxons and Danish Vikings; Sigurd for Norse Vikings; Eshu for people who share genetic links with people such as the Berbers of North Africa; and Re for a farming people who spread to Europe from the Middle East.
The study linked the male Y-chromosome to the birthplace of paternal grandfathers to try to establish a historic distribution pattern. Prof Sykes, a member of the Oisin clan, said the Celts had remained predominant in Britain despite waves of further migration.
"The overlay of Vikings, Saxons and so on is 20 per cent at most. That's even in those parts of England that are nearest to the Continent," he said.
"The only exception is Orkney and Shetland, where roughly 40 per cent are of Viking ancestry."
In Scotland, the majority of people are not actually Scots, but Picts. Even in Argyll, the stronghold of the Irish Scots, two-thirds of members of the Oisin clan are Pictish Celts.
However, according to the study, the Picts, like the Scots, originally came from Spain.
"If one thinks that the English are genetically different from the Scots, Irish and Welsh, that's entirely wrong," he said.
"In the 19th century, the idea of Anglo-Saxon superiority was very widespread. At the moment, there is a resurgence of Celtic identity, which had been trampled on. It's very vibrant and obvious at the moment.
"Basically the cornerstone of Celtic identity is that they are not English. However, to try to base that, as some do, on an idea that is not far beneath the surface that Celtic countries are somehow descended from a race of Celts, which the English are not, is not right. We are all descended from the same people.
"It should dispel any idea of trying to base what is a cultural identity on a genetic difference, because there really isn't one."
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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This seems to be an attempt at rebuttal to the article cited by Yonis here Again, isn't 'Celt' is one who speaks Celtic language and practices Celtic culture, just as 'Aryan' is one who speaks Aryan language and practices Aryan culture as stated by ancient Indians and Iranians?
quote:A MAJOR genetic study of the population of Britain appears to have put an end to the idea of the "Celtic fringe" of Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
I don't see how since these islands are indeed at the fringe of Celtic culture just as India is and particularly Sri-Lanka the fringe of Indo-Iranian culture, and that Celtic like all Indo-European languages have no known genetic markers that correlate with them.
Instead, a research team at Oxford University has found the majority of Britons are Celts descended from Spanish tribes who began arriving about 7,000 years ago.
One problem: Linguists estimate that proto-Celtic diverged around the first millenium BC-- just almost 3,000 years ago. There are some scholars who try to push the divergence farther (as well as the age of IE languages) so that Celtic diverged to at most 4,000 BC. Which means that those Spanish populations that peopled the Britsh Isles had nothing to do with Celts!
quote:Even in England, about 64 per cent of people are descended from these Celts, outnumbering the descendants of Anglo-Saxons by about three to one.
The proportion of Celts is only slightly higher in Scotland, at 73 per cent. Wales is the most Celtic part of mainland Britain, with 83 per cent.
Again, these were not Celts, but pre-Celtic populations.
quote:Previously it was thought that ancient Britons were Celts who came from central Europe, but the genetic connection to populations in Spain provides a scientific basis for part of the ancient Scots' origin myth.
As I've said before, myth is a tricky tool to use. Although there is some truth to all myths, caution be used when applying them.
quote:The Declaration of Arbroath of 1320, following the War of Independence against England, tells how the Scots arrived in Scotland after they had "dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes".
I'm confused. Was this 1320 or 7,000 years ago?
quote:Professor Bryan Sykes, a human geneticist at Oxford, said the myth may have been a "residue" in people's memories of the real journey, but added that the majority of people in England were the descendants of the same people who sailed across the Bay of Biscay.
Prof Sykes divided the population into several groups or clans: Oisin for the Celts; Wodan for Anglo-Saxons and Danish Vikings; Sigurd for Norse Vikings; Eshu for people who share genetic links with people such as the Berbers of North Africa; and Re for a farming people who spread to Europe from the Middle East.
Again, there is truth to all myths but where is the evidence that such Spanish immigrants were Celtic? What's funny is that as recently as the Iron Age, all of Spain was not controlled by Celts but by non-Celtic/non-Indo-European speaking Iberians.
[qutoe]The study linked the male Y-chromosome to the birthplace of paternal grandfathers to try to establish a historic distribution pattern. Prof Sykes, a member of the Oisin clan, said the Celts had remained predominant in Britain despite waves of further migration.
Yes, Celts as in those who spoke Celtic languages. Again, we have not yet found genetic markers that strongly correlates to I-E languages. As such, how is it most of India is 'Aryan' but genetically they differ from Iranians and Central Asians, let alone Europeans.
quote:"The overlay of Vikings, Saxons and so on is 20 per cent at most. That's even in those parts of England that are nearest to the Continent," he said.
"The only exception is Orkney and Shetland, where roughly 40 per cent are of Viking ancestry."
And of course we have historical as well as linguistic evidence to back up this Germanic emigration.
quote:In Scotland, the majority of people are not actually Scots, but Picts. Even in Argyll, the stronghold of the Irish Scots, two-thirds of members of the Oisin clan are Pictish Celts.
However, according to the study, the Picts, like the Scots, originally came from Spain.
Which is funny since, scholars are not even certain if the Picts even spoke Celtic languages!
quote:"If one thinks that the English are genetically different from the Scots, Irish and Welsh, that's entirely wrong," he said.
"In the 19th century, the idea of Anglo-Saxon superiority was very widespread. At the moment, there is a resurgence of Celtic identity, which had been trampled on. It's very vibrant and obvious at the moment.
Of course. Which comes to show what I have been saying all along-- there is no genetic marker associated with any I-E language let alone distinguishing the different I-E speakers from each other.
quote:"Basically the cornerstone of Celtic identity is that they are not English. However, to try to base that, as some do, on an idea that is not far beneath the surface that Celtic countries are somehow descended from a race of Celts, which the English are not, is not right. We are all descended from the same people.
Indeed, a pre-Celtic people as was explained in Yonis's thread.
quote:"It should dispel any idea of trying to base what is a cultural identity on a genetic difference, because there really isn't one."
It sound like the author is contradicting himself with this last statement. Either there is genetic data corroborating Celtic identity or not.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It's apparent that the peoples of the British Isles and Ireland are descendants of pre-Celtic peoples. It were these peoples who were responsible for Neolithic structures like Stone Henge and various other megalithic circles, man-made hills, and other monuments. Perhaps we should try to learn more about these people and their culture instead of obsessing over Celtism.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yes, true. Like in many cases, there was a Celticization of Europe. This was mostly cultural than genetic.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Aug 2007
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