Were the citizens of the historic era kingdoms of Judah and Israel primarily of Eurasian biological origins or were they primarily of African biological origin?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: THREAD QUESTION and FOCUS:
Were the citizens of the historic era kingdoms of Judah and Israel primarily of Eurasian biological origins or were they primarily of African biological origin?
Evergreen Writes:
My position is that these people were heterogenous with a primarily Eurasian biological origin.
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Although I don't deny any African component in the populations, it was primarily Eurasian.
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posted
Same here. If these peoples were so-called blacks who migrated out of the Nile valley, why do they speak a different language and have a different religion from AEs? With the eception of Akhenaton, AEs were a primarily polytheistic people. If anyone believes that Israelites were migrants from the Nile Valley they must also believe that these same Jews built the pyramids, which is nothing more than false Zionsit propaganda.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
People of Jewish descent do have a significant amount of E3b probably from Egypt though. Primarily Eurasian is still accurate.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
If any kind of Asian, they were AfroAsian not EurAsian. Nothing of Europe about them.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I think there was no Israel until ex-Egyptian nationals named themselves such but I do not think the subset of Israel known as Jews built any pyramids.
I don't know how Zionism enters the picture as a people making a homeland nation in today's Levant has nothing to do with the subject header. Nor does the relevant Hebrew literature make any claim other than Hebrews involved with work on two Egyptian cities Pithom and Ramses(sp?), the word pyramid dose not appear in Hebrew literature of TN"K.
This only shows a pre-formed ideological base behind your thinking disallowing you to even try to objectively weigh any evidence. But then, the threads broacher has already made plain his anti-HebrewIsraelite ideology which is coloring his approach to ancient Judah and Israel.
But maybe that's just what this thread is for, ideological axe grinding.
quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass: If anyone believes that Israelites were migrants from the Nile Valley they must also believe that these same Jews built the pyramids, which is nothing more than false Zionsit propaganda.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: These two concepts have no corelation.
I think there was no Israel until ex-Egyptian nationals named themselves such but I do not think the subset of Israel known as Jews built any pyramids.
I don't know how Zionism enters the picture as a people making a homeland nation in today's Levant has nothing to do with the subject header. Nor does the relevant Hebrew literature make any claim other than Hebrews involved with work on two Egyptian cities Pithom and Ramses(sp?), the word pyramid dose not appear in Hebrew literature of TN"K.
This only shows a pre-formed ideological base behind your thinking disallowing you to even try to objectively weigh any evidence. But then, the threads broacher has already made plain his anti-HebrewIsraelite ideology which is coloring his approach to ancient Judah and Israel.
But maybe that's just what this thread is for, ideological axe grinding.
quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass: If anyone believes that Israelites were migrants from the Nile Valley they must also believe that these same Jews built the pyramids, which is nothing more than false Zionsit propaganda.
Mesopatamians are often referred to as Eurasian becuase of the obvious influence they have had in both Europe and Asia. When it comes to Africa it would appear that the influence has been more the other way around if I follow this forum correctly.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Just to clarify - Hebrews are Mesopatamians in origin. There is no point in trying to argue around that. The term Hebrew was first used in Mesopatamia. They self acknowledge their origins from this area through all of their traditions.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Sorry Hebrew is a word from the K*na'ani lect. In fact the Judahites called spoken Hebrew the language of Canaan.
The word Hebrew predates Judah by a significant amount of time. Please show references showing that the term was defined after the creation of Israel.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Also I am not referring to the Hebrew language which is clearly Afroasiatic. I am refering to the origin of the word itself and when it was first applied. From Jewish tradition the word was first applied to Abraham before he left Mesopatamia. Certainly it was translated into Hebrew and Aramaic. However, the first Hebrew is still defined as the Patriach Abraham.
Hebrew is a title or nickname rather than a personal name. It was initially given to Abram but later came to denote the Israelites.
The word Hebrew comes from the verb (abar) meaning to pass over, through, take away. The first application of this word is in the name Eber. The second application is in the first occurrence of the word , Hebrew in Gen 14:13, where Abram is called Hebrew. The first case of narrative use of this verb is in the enigmatic cadaver vision of Gen 15:17, "...there appeared a smoking furnace and a flaming torch that passed between these parts."
Basically Nomadic wanderer. Unless we argue that Abram was a legendary figure only, essentially we are saying that the Patriach of the Jewish people was a Mesopatmian regardless of the language used by his descendants later.
How one then concludes that Jewish people are of African origins claiming a Mesopatamian Patriach is quite a strange confusion. J2 haplotype is clearly non-African and is the marker commonly used to define people of the region from which Abram purportedly descended and as well as the marker of people who to this day who speak Hebrew and or Aramaic.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: If any kind of Asian, they were AfroAsian not EurAsian. Nothing of Europe about them.
Evergreen Writes:
Afro-Asiatic is a language, not a biological affinity. Eurasian is not synonymous with Europe. In biological terms Eurasian relates to people whose primary ancestral lineages derived outside of Africa. The citizens of the ancient Kingdoms of Judah and Israel would be one such case.
Certainly when we speak of the Early Upper Paleolithic we can speak of the Levant as an extension of Africa in terms of population affinity. By the Late Upper Paleolithic the people of the Levant had adapted with cold-climate characteristics consistent with Eurasian derivation.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I think there was no Israel until ex-Egyptian nationals named themselves such...
Evergreen Writes:
This is a fringe archaeology concept. Though I would view this as a **possibility** and not a probability. Even if such were the case the gene pool within Egypt from which these Egyptian ex-nationals derived would have been heterogeneous in that since the Hyksos Invasion Lower and Middle Egypt had been substantially impacted by incursions ultimately deriving from Central Asia. This is well attested in the archaeological record and supported by the biological research conducted on New and Late Kingdom remains found in Lower Egypt.
Furthermore, the people of Israel and Judah derived from the heterogeneous peoples of Lower and Middle Egypt they would have certainly been further absorbed into the dominant Eurasian gene pool extant in the Levant present since the pre-LGM.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Charlie Bass: Same here. If these peoples were so-called blacks who migrated out of the Nile valley, why do they speak a different language and have a different religion from AEs?
Semetic languages originate in the Nile Valley as does most things associated with Judaism.
quote:With the eception of Akhenaton, AEs were a primarily polytheistic people.
So were the original Israelites.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: But then, the threads broacher has already made plain his anti-HebrewIsraelite ideology which is coloring his approach to ancient Judah and Israel.
Evergreen Writes:
More "symping". Instead of making emotive please simply present your case and allow us to judge it on the merit of factual data.
Get your weight up.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Sorry Hebrew is a word from the K*na'ani lect. In fact the Judahites called spoken Hebrew the language of Canaan.
Evergreen Writes:
By the Late Early Bronze Age Canaan was well within the Mesopatamian cultural sphere in archaeological terms.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: [QUOTE]Semetic languages originate in the Nile Valley as does most things associated with Judaism.
Evergreen Writes:
This is not evidence. This is simply a reiteration of the fringe agenda. Of course proto-Semitic began in Africa. And yes, the Judaeo-Christian belif systems were heavily impacted by the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs. This in no way proves the biological affinity of the historic citizens of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Basically Nomadic wanderer. Unless we argue that Abram was a legendary figure only, essentially we are saying that the Patriach of the Jewish people was a Mesopatmian regardless of the language used by his descendants later.
There is no extra biblical evidence for the existence of Abram/Abraham.
quote:How one then concludes that Jewish people are of African origins claiming a Mesopatamian Patriach is quite a strange confusion.
Perhaps the Abraham story was invented after the fact by non Nile Valley semites?
quote:J2 haplotype is clearly non-African and is the marker commonly used to define people of the region from which Abram purportedly descended and as well as the marker of people who to this day who speak Hebrew and or Aramaic.
Which has absolutely positively nothing at all to do with the original Israelite population.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: This is not evidence.
Wrong. Semitic languages and Judaism are a product of the Nile Valley - as are the AEs. This was in response to the poster who questions the similarities shared between "Semites" and Nile Valley populations.
quote:This is simply a reiteration of the fringe agenda.
And what "fringe agenda" did I reiterate by simply stating the facts?
quote:Of course proto-Semitic began in Africa. And yes, the Judaeo-Christian belif systems were heavily impacted by the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs.
I can't think of anything as it regards Judaism or Christianity that isn't African in it's origin. You're being intellectually dishonest when you say "the Judaeo-Christian belief systems were heavily impacted by the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs." It would be more correct to say that the Judaeo-Christian belief systems are a product of the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs.
quote:This in no way proves the biological affinity of the historic citizens of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.
No, it does not...
Posts: 262 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: [QUOTE]I can't think of anything as it regards Judaism or Christianity that isn't African in it's origin. You're being intellectually dishonest when you say "the Judaeo-Christian belief systems were heavily impacted by the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs." It would be more correct to say that the Judaeo-Christian belief systems are a product of the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs.
Evergreen Writes:
So is your position that Eurasian cultures have had **NO** impact on the Judaeo-Christian belief systems of more specifically Judahism?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: [QUOTE]I can't think of anything as it regards Judaism or Christianity that isn't African in it's origin.
Evergreen Writes:
Christianity evolved in Europe. Judaism post-dates the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel. If you have a reference to Judaism that dates to the period in question please provide it.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by osiriun: Basically Nomadic wanderer. Unless we argue that Abram was a legendary figure only, essentially we are saying that the Patriach of the Jewish people was a Mesopatmian regardless of the language used by his descendants later.
There is no extra biblical evidence for the existence of Abram/Abraham.
quote:How one then concludes that Jewish people are of African origins claiming a Mesopatamian Patriach is quite a strange confusion.
Perhaps the Abraham story was invented after the fact by non Nile Valley semites?
quote:J2 haplotype is clearly non-African and is the marker commonly used to define people of the region from which Abram purportedly descended and as well as the marker of people who to this day who speak Hebrew and or Aramaic.
Which has absolutely positively nothing at all to do with the original Israelite population.
You are not making any sense. Modern day Arabs which are descendents of Hebrews from ancient time have non-African J2. If you are saying that the Israelites who conquered Canaan and then was dispersed into Europe by the Romans were actually African then where is the genetic link? Only a minority of modern day Jews have E3b. The people living in the area of question do not have African genes by any large frequency. So are you just in denial or what? It is not as if we don't know what happened to the Jews of Israel. They simply intermmarried with local populations but the paternal heritage can be traced and it is called - J2.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote: I can't think of anything as it regards Judaism or Christianity that isn't African in it's origin. You're being intellectually dishonest when you say "the Judaeo-Christian belief systems were heavily impacted by the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs." It would be more correct to say that the Judaeo-Christian belief systems are a product of the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs.
Well thats a simple one. The story of Adam and Eve is certainly not African in origin but rather Masopatamian. And then lets start with the 10 commandments which is Sumerian. I can go on and on with it but it would be boring.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: If any kind of Asian, they were AfroAsian not EurAsian. Nothing of Europe about them.
^ Dovetails with Wally's long ago observation that it is Arabic and Hebrew that are the most properly discribed of as -> Afro-Asiatic languages.
Not discounting any of the other posts, but, I like the train of thought here.
There is not just
African juxtaposing Eurasian, but also...
Afro-Asian juxtaposing European.
^ Change the game.
There was very little Asiatic influence in Africa prior to the Hysok invasion. Two separate worlds. Hebrew origins are still Mesopatamian since well before the time of Hammurabi. Basically look at the Ur-Nammu code and you will see the Asiatic influence in Hebrew traditions.
The Mosaic laws almost parrallel Hammurabi and Ur Nammu codes.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Hebrew origins are still Mesopatamian since well before the time of Hammurabi
^ Well..... Hebrew is a language, which is linked to a massive family of hundreds of African languages, and -no European-, Indian or East Asian language.
Basically look at the Ur-Nammu code and you will see the Asiatic influence in Hebrew traditions.
The Mosaic laws almost parrallel Hammurabi and Ur Nammu codes.
Evergreen Writes:
We speak of contextualizing Ancient Egypt within an African framework (Afrocentric) but do so often on only a superficial basis. The Judeao-Christian belief system is very left-brain centric. Very linear and non-holistic, unlike much of what we see in traditional African beliefs.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]^ Well..... Hebrew is a language, which is linked to a massive family of hundreds of African languages, and -no European-...
Evergreen Writes:
So there are no Indo-European loan words in Hebrew?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Hebrew origins are still Mesopatamian since well before the time of Hammurabi
^ Well..... Hebrew is a language, which is linked to a massive family of hundreds of African languages, and -no European-, Indian or East Asian language.
So.....
The spread of the Afro-Asiatic languages from East Africa into the Levant is intriguing. However, Afro-Asian speakers are not all closely related now are they? J2 clades are still non-African West Asians irregardless of the language they speak. They also have a culture that has large non-African component that is Mesopatamian in origin.
Posts: 154 | From: Seattle Washington | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
^ May I add that despite the Afrasian/African origins of the Hebrew language, many aspects of Hebrew beliefs are also common with Mesopotamian beliefs as well. This is seen in mythos such as the garden with trees that produce fruits of knowledge and life as well as the serpent and woman taking and sharing the fruit, the great flood survived by a man and his family via an ark etc. Besides that, other elements such as the reckoning of lineages and clans through patriarchs are very much akin to those of other Semitic speaking nomads of Southwest Asia in fact like the 'Arabs' to be precise.
As far as Egyptian Atenism, that is very different from Jewish Yahweh in that Aten was the sun, whereas Yahweh is creator of all including the sun. Not to mention the fact that even during Atenism, Akhenaton still maintained the divine status of pharaoh meaning that the himself was also a god worthy of worship. Something like that would be blasphemous to early Israelites.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As far as Egyptian Atenism, that is very different from Jewish Yahweh in that Aten was the sun, whereas Yahweh is creator of all including the sun.
Evergreen Writes:
So you are suggesting that Atenism was the worship of the Sun instead of the Sun as a **SYMBOL** of the Aten?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Not to mention the fact that even during Atenism, Akhenaton still maintained the divine status of pharaoh meaning that the himself was also a god worthy of worship.
Evergreen Writes:
When you say **WORSHIP** what do you mean? Under the African Sacral King Model the people worshiped the divinity within the King, not the **PERSONA** of the King.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Evergreen Writes: So you are suggesting that Atenism was the worship of the Sun instead of the Sun as a **SYMBOL** of the Aten?
Of course the sun was the physical manifestation of the greater spirit or deity. But regardless, Yahweh worship was not associated or symbolized by the sun.
quote: When you say **WORSHIP** what do you mean? Under the African Sacral King Model the people worshiped the divinity within the King, not the **PERSONA** of the King.
That's the thing. The historic Israelites had no sacral king model.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Well, what's the word on the weight that should be applied to the linguistic verses the physical evidence;
Is there a substantial amount of physical remains that have or have not been studied, and can be linked back to the Hebrews FOR SURE?
I believe alTakruri posted of something physical...
anyway, I no someone other than the Egyptians probably noted of the Israelites ... in terms of physical appearance, if they were black, a Greek had to have said something.
I've read a comment I thing from Djehuti asserting that they referred to them as "those people".
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
There is a 3 volume set of books detailing Greco-Latin authors on the territory which supposedly was Israel and Judah of the Hebrews. There is little, if any mention of a Judahite people by the Greek writers. Cherilus in listing the components of Xerxes armies describes some ostensibly from the hills about Jerusalem
quote:... they spake the Phoenician tongue with their mouths; ...their heads were sooty; they had round rasures on them; their heads and faces were like nasty horse heads also, that had been hardened in the smoke.
The posted translation comes from William Whiston, dated 1884.
E.H. Gifford, 1903, gave the following in translation
quote: ... whose lips pronounced the strange Phoenician tongue; ... Rough and unkempt their close-cropped hair, and on their heads they wore the smoke-dried skin flayed from a horse's face.
I took the original Greek to native Grecian history buffs who'd studied ancient Greek and even to abunas in the Orthodox Church. None of them could offer a translation. I purposely told them nothing about the ancient Greek words except it was something I found in a book and could you please tell me what it says.
I take it the reference to horse heads emphasizes the jaw and cheekbone structure of the Judaeans (you can see how prominent the jaw and cheekdones are in Sennacherib's bas-reliefs of the citizenry of Lachish. Sooty and "smokey" speak for themselves complexion-wise.
Greek mythology located an Aithiopia in Joppa/Yaffa, which is today's Tell Aviv, ruled over by Cepheus who's daughter was Andromeda. Nothing historic but they surely matched peoples and places in a fashion that was true to reality as they percieved it.
I think Joppa was among the southern and coastal cities of the Levant, i.e., the Gaza Strip and north of it. Risdon's study, deemed downlevel by today's standards yet not disputed in its conclusions by Keita's assessment of the relevant osteo remains, found the same general physiognomy in inland Lachish as in the Gaza to Joppa coastal region.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^ Speaking of which, I have a few questions about the sources you just cited.
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Menachem Stern Greek and latin authors on Jews and Judaism : edited with introductions, translations and commentary (3 Vols.) Jerusalem: Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities; 1974, 1980, 1984
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: [QUOTE]I can't think of anything as it regards Judaism or Christianity that isn't African in it's origin. You're being intellectually dishonest when you say "the Judaeo-Christian belief systems were heavily impacted by the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs." It would be more correct to say that the Judaeo-Christian belief systems are a product of the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs.
Evergreen Writes:
So is your position that Eurasian cultures have had **NO** impact on the Judaeo-Christian belief systems of more specifically Judahism?
No, that is not my position @ all. However, Christianity and Judaism are both products of the Nile Valley. Is this even a question?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: I can't think of anything as it regards Judaism or Christianity that isn't African in it's origin. You're being intellectually dishonest when you say "the Judaeo-Christian belief systems were heavily impacted by the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs." It would be more correct to say that the Judaeo-Christian belief systems are a product of the more ancient African Nilotic beliefs.
Well thats a simple one. The story of Adam and Eve is certainly not African in origin but rather Masopatamian. And then lets start with the 10 commandments which is Sumerian. I can go on and on with it but it would be boring.
The Ten Commandments aren't Sumerian. They are a product of the Nile Valley, as is the prohibition of eating pork and circumcision.
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I thought the whole Adam, Eve, Shem Ham Noah and Japeth thing to have been myth based on factual African (culture, and people) (ie the Natufians) migation into the Levant and subsequent integration with Levant peoples and cultures.
But whatever's what ever.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
^ Then again, if you are going by Biblical myths and legends you must remember that the Canaanites were descendants of Canaan who was one of the sons of Ham and therefore one of the progintors of black nations-- the other sons producing nations within Africa proper.
So does this tell us anything historically?...
Posts: 26280 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I can't believe this topic has resurfaced ...
Listen, when one truly discover what the ancient Ys/Ra/El\Ar truly believed then and only then can this topic reach a final conclusion. With this being said:
1. Ancient Yisra'el was not a monotheistic culture and yes it is true, they believe and knew that there were many gods. Psalms 82 and Genesis chapter 1 ... look for words like US, OUR, etc when the Gods are talking ...
2.) Like Akhenaten they choose one deity which they (Moshe) wanted to serve ... Period! (Deuteronomy 32:7-9) look for the word Lord and inheritance ... But more importantly ... Moshe asked for Yahveh to be the god of Yisra`el.
3.) Moses himself was made into a God by so-called Yahweh (Exodus 7:1) ... Thus Monotheism is not in the ancient cards ...
once you get past the fact this was not a monotheistic group of people, then you can see the parallels in the religious doctrines ...
1.) Melchizedek was also called Adonizedek ... Adon/Aton/Aten which translate as Atenizedek which means 'Aten the righteous'. (Jasher 88:55).
When Melchizedek was king of Salem which was Canaan. In the time line of his supposedly existence Canaan was a providence of Kemet.
2.)The ancient City of Zoan spelling is extremely close to that of Zion ...
3.) The battle between Kayin/Cain and Abel is the battle between Set and Ausar.
4.) Yah/Jah (Psalms 68:4) came from Kemet as acknowledged in Hosea 13:4
5.) 10 commandment comes from the 42 confusions ...
6.) Aaron was the spokes person and I would venture to say king, Moses was the High Priest. Moses had a speech problem ...
Aaron's name is actually Aharon which is similar to Akhenaton. Moses/Moshe has a speech problem just like Akhenaton's brother who's name was Thot[Moses].
7.)Once again, Melchizedek is the same as Adon/Atenizedek and Melchizedek said to Abraham, Blessed by Abraham of the Most High ... Well The Most High deity of Abraham was Aten.
8.)Ab-Ra-Hem/Ham - Servant of Ra's will ...
9.) Yis-Ra-El/Ar - Place of Ra Worship
10.) 17 years of plagues during the time of Akhenaten ... Moshe was the one who supposedly brought about these plagues
Akhenaten worshiped Aten just like Atenizedek and Abraham.
We can continue to keep going but the it will take all day for me to show how the ancient Yisra`elites were of Kemetic origins ... They assumed some of the Semitic teaching when entering the lands, but not originally. Some believe the other way around but naw ... they were kemetic folks i.e. Africans.
I think there has to be an in depth look into the history of ancient Kemetic and Israel's connection.
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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