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alTakruri
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quote:

What we like to think of as "philosophic thought" first appears in Greece in a poem,
Theogony , written by Hesiod about 725 B.C.; the Theogony retells the myths of the
gods and speculates in part about the origins of things and the order of the universe.
What we generally call "Greek philosophy" was almost certainly derived by the Greeks
from Egyptian culture, particularly natural science (physics and math) which preoccupied
Greek thought up to the time of Plato. The Greeks seem also to have derived much
of their philosophical theology from the Egyptians as well. These are not modern
interpretations of Greek philosophy; the ancient Greeks themselves claim without
dissension that their philosophy comes from Egypt. Whether the Greeks travelled
to Egypt or whether the Egyptians colonized or visited Greece at some point (which
is what the ancient Greeks thought) is a difficult question to answer.

. . . .

Pythagoreanism began towards the end of the 6th century in the Greek cities in
southern Italy; this school sought an intellectual foundation for a certain religious
way of life, and was more abstract and mathematical than the Milesians (and much
more heavily influenced by Egyptian thought). Much of their thought remains completely
obscure and impenetrable. They principally sought to purify the soul by strict rules of
life; they believed in metempsychosis (the transmigration of souls to animals and
even plants); and they found the essential unity of things to lie not in a physical
substrate but in number and numerical relations. For the Pythagoreans, the one
thing that formed the substrate of all the infinite things in the universe was number .

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/PRESOC.HTM
©1996, Richard Hooker



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ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
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quote:


Heraclitus

Heraclitus, along with Parmenides, is probably the most significant philosopher of ancient Greece until Socrates and Plato; in fact, Heraclitus's philosophy is perhaps even more fundamental in the formation of the European mind than any other thinker in European history, including Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. Why? Heraclitus, like Parmenides, postulated a model of nature and the universe which created the foundation for all other speculation on physics and metaphysics. The ideas that the universe is in constant change and that there is an underlying order or reason to this change—the Logos—form the essential foundation of the European world view. Everytime you walk into a science, economics, or political science course, to some extent everything you do in that class originates with Heraclitus's speculations on change and the Logos.

Despite all this, and despite the fact that the ancient Greeks considered Heraclitus one of their principal philosophers, precious little remains of his writings. All we have are a few fragments, quoted willy-nilly in other Greek writers, that give us only a small taste of his arguments. These passages are tremendously difficult to read, not merely because they are quoted out of context, but because Heraclitus deliberately cultivated an obscure writing style—so obscure, in fact, that the Greeks nicknamed him the "Riddler."

In reading these passages, you should be able to piece together the central components of Heraclitus's thought. What, precisely, is the Logos? Can it be comprehended or defined by human beings? What does it mean to claim that the Logos consists of all the paired opposites in the universe? What is the nature of the Logos as the composite of all paired opposites? How does the Logos explain change? Finally, how would you compare Heraclitus's Logos to its later incarnations: in the Divided Line in Plato, in foundational and early Christianity? How would you relate Heraclitus's cryptic statements to those of Lao Tzu?
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/HERAC.HTM

Can we get some detailed elicitation on the source of this man's Knowledge please?
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alTakruri
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quote:

I would today like to explore the question of what might be learned if
we place Plato in the context of Egypt. Thus from the outset, I admit
that I want to defy the tone of scholarship that is set by the title of
Mary Lefkowitz's recent book, Not Out of Africa. I understand that in
her more careful formulations, Lefkowitz is willing to admit of Egyptian
influence upon Greek culture; nevertheless, the title of her book, and the
general mood of her rhetoric, sets a tone which I find most discouraging,
and I am here to seek, in the presence of specialists, an avenue toward
fruitful reflection which may entertain within one universe the things we
might learn if we spoke of Plato and Egypt together.

... I will advance three of Diop's propositions:
- 1) that Plato is an optimist after the fashion of the Heliopolitan theology,
- 2) that the heritage of Egyptian civilization deserves greater attention as a Western heritage, and
- 3) that there are elements in the heritage of Egyptian education which tend to suppress the advancement of science.

In sum, I will argue that Plato's increasing fascination with Egyptian form
invites us to follow Diop's suggestion that by acknowledging and investigating
our Egyptian heritage, we shall be in a much better position to assess who
we are today and where we should be heading.

. . . .

According to my own reading of Nicolas Grimal's History of Ancient Egypt, the
age of the Seven Wise Men in Greece happens to coincide with a Saitic revival
in Northern Egypt that drew the Greeks into vigorous contact. Another such
revival was also underway during Plato's lifetime as Northern Egyptians undertook
to build a renaissance upon the models of their own ancient history. How closely
these historical connections may tie the two cultures is surely a delicate question,
but I find it difficult to suppose with Lefkowitz and Jenkyns that there is simply no
story to tell. In the classroom, I think the most reasonable position to teach is that our
cultural connections with Egyptian heritage should be further invstigated, not dismissed.

. . . .

In the three dialogues under investigation, Plato seems to operate from a worldview
pervaded by the presence of Egypt. In the Republic, Plato's references to Egypt are
sparse and offhanded. But in the Timaeus and Laws, we find Plato increasingly
preoccupied with the relationship between Greece and Egypt and we find Egyptian
forms taken more and more seriously. After brief exploration of these passages, I
would like to revive the suggestion made by James McEvoy that the Platonic worldview
may have been modeled after the Pharonic (McEvoy 1984).

. . . .

Twice Socrates swears, "by the dog of Egypt." Between these passages, Socrates refers
to the Egyptians and Phoenicians as lovers of money. There is not much to say about
these brief uses, except that they suggest a few layers of irony. By "the dog of Egypt,"
Socrates is presumably referring to Anubis, the jackal-like god of judgment and
discernment who makes the finest distinctions among things in the world--and who is
a prominent figure in the Book of the Dead. To swear by the dog of Egypt is a dramatic
way of affirming the truth of a proposition. Already we see how Plato's view of Egypt
assumes something about the Egyptian legacy of thought. The dog of Egypt is a
symbol of precise, reasoned judgment.

In the first usage, the image of Anubis affirms the discernment with which Socrates has just
purged his ideal republic of corrupting influences. "And so, by the dog of Egypt, we have
been unconsciously purging the State, which not long ago we termed luxurious," says
Socrates. "And we have done wisely," replies Glaucon.

. . . .


Greg Moses
Copyright 1996
Presented at SUNY-Binghamton
Oct., 1996

Please read on at http://gmoses.tripod.com/moweb/bythedog.htm
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alTakruri
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quote:

In addition, in Prologue to Prodlus’s Commentaries on Euclid’s Elements,
a disciple of Aristotle named Eudemus, who lived in the forth century B.C.,
confirms: “we shall say, following the general tradition, that the Egyptians
were the first to have invented Geometry, (that) Thales, the first Greek to
have been in Egypt, brought this theory thereof to Greece” (Obenga, p. 48).

. . . .

Plato studied at the Temple of Waset for 11 years;
Aristotle was there for 11-13 years;
Socrates 15 years
Euclid stayed for 10-11 years;
Pythegoras for 22 yeasrs;
Hypocrates studies for 20 years;
and the other Greeks who matriculated at Waset included Diodorus, Solon,
Thales, Archimides, and Euripides. Indeed, the Greek, St. Clement of Alexandria,
once said that if you were to write a book of 1,000 pages, you would not
be able to put down the names of all the Greeks who went to Kemet to be
educated and even those who did not surreptitiously claim they went because
it was prestigious.

The fact of the matter is that it took 40 years to graduate/matriculate
from Waset; this then means that none of the Greeks graduated.

. . . .

significant Kemet-Greece linkage:

I Thales (624-547 B.C.) was the first (protos) Greek student to receive
his training from Egyptian priests in the Nile Valley.

II Plato (428-347 B.C.) records that Thales was educated in Egypt under the priests.

III Proclus (Neoplationist, 420-485 A.D.) Reports that Thales introduced
science, philosophy and mathematics/geometry to Greece.

IV Greek intellectual life started with the Egyptian-trained student, Thales.
He was the founder of the first Greek school of philosophy and science.

V Thales strongly recommended that Pythagoras travel to Egypt to receive his
basic education and to converse as often as possible with the priests of Memphis
and Thebes.

. . . .

... Education in ancient Egypt was religious at its base.” At age seven,
the brightest boys in Egypt were selected for training in the priesthood.
This was the highest honor that could be possibly bestowed on a family
- the selection of a son for admission into a caste of brilliant thinkers,
the “guardians of the state” whom Plato so greatly admired and wrote
about. When the boys (Neophytes) entered the Temple/schools (or
Grand Lodge) they had to study for 40 years - ...

The Neophyte was vigorously trained in how to:

1. Control his thoughts

2. Control his actions

3. Have devotion of purpose

4. Have faith in the ability of his master to teach him the truth

5. Have faith in himself to assimilate the truth

6. Have faith in himself to wield the truth

7. Be free from resentment under the experience of persecution

8. Be free from resentment under experience of wrong

9. Cultivate the ability to distinguish between the real and the unreal
(i.e., he must have a sense of values)

10. Cultivate the ability to distinguish between right and wrong

Plato, who greatly admired the Egyptian education system and actually recommended
that it be introduced into Greece, copied/imitated/derived his three “cardinal virtues”
from these ten goals the neophyte had to attain in the Nile Valley.

“Control of thoughts and action,” Plato called the “virtue of wisdom;”

“freedom of resentment under persecution” Plato called the “virtue of fortitude;”

“the ability to distinguish between right and wrong and between the real and unreal,”
Plato called the “virtues of justice and temperance.”


Dr Kwame Nantambu
is an Associate Professor in the Dept. of Pan-African Studies at Kent State University


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alTakruri
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I'm more than certain Egypt was the initiator of
and a presursor to some, not all, Greek philosophy.

Here's why I say not all.
quote:

prior to the reign of a king named Ergamenes, ... it had been the custom
for the high priests, probably at Napata, to send a message to the king,
supposedly from the great god himself, advising him that the time of his
rule on earth was finished and that he must die. Traditionally the kings
had obeyed the divine orders and had taken their own lives. Ergamenes,
however, "who had received instruction in Greek philosophy, was the first
to disdain this command. With the determination worthy of a king he came
with an armed force to the forbidden place where the golden temple of the
Aithiopians was situated and slaughtered all the priests, abolished this
tradition, and instituted practices at his own discretion". It was about this
time that the first royal tomb was built at Meroe: of a king named "Arkamani"
(=Ergamanes). Soon thereafter, Kushite art and architecture began to develop
individualistic styles. The royal family appeared much more "African" in their
images and in their standards of beauty. The royal costumes and crowns
were unique. A lion god, unknown in the Egyptian pantheon, became pre-eminent
in the southern part of the kingdom. And Egyptian language and writing were largely
abandoned for official monuments and were replaced by the native Nubian language
(called "Meroitic"), which was for the first time written down in newly devised hieroglyphic
and cursive alphabets.



Obviously Arkamani's training in Greek philosophy
introduced quite foreign and un-egyptian ideas
into his mind. Crass materialism? Atheism? ???

Of course I totally disagree with this nonsense about
Qevs expressing itself "more African" because it was
just as African as it ever was if indeed it were ever
Egyptianized since to be Egyptianized is tantamount
to being African every bit as much as and no less than
anything else that is African.

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Doug M
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The way Egypt influenced Greek thought can be seen in many areas:

Duality: The fact that all of the Egyptian Neters come in pairs of Male and Female, represents duality in the universe.

Worship of Nature: The Egyptian worship of nature as the embodiment and reflection of universal creation and wisdom is self explanatory.

Nature of the Mind and Thought: Old as Ptah

Mathematical basis of the Universe(nature): Observed in Egyptian architecture with all forms having natural shape and based on the dimensions of the human body.


And so on and so on...

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ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

Duality: The fact that all of the Egyptian Neters come in pairs of Male and Female ...


I did not know this. Can you please explain ?
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ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The way Egypt influenced Greek thought can be seen in many areas:

Duality: The fact that all of the Egyptian Neters come in pairs of Male and Female, represents duality in the universe.

Worship of Nature: The Egyptian worship of nature as the embodiment and reflection of universal creation and wisdom is self explanatory.

Nature of the Mind and Thought: Old as Ptah

Mathematical basis of the Universe(nature): Observed in Egyptian architecture with all forms having natural shape and based on the dimensions of the human body.


And so on and so on...

This answers my question about Heraclitus.

Thanks.

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Djehuti
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quote:
What we like to think of as "philosophic thought" first appears in Greece in a poem,
Theogony , written by Hesiod about 725 B.C.; the Theogony retells the myths of the
gods and speculates in part about the origins of things and the order of the universe...

Actually, the Theogony is mainly derived from Canaanite or Levantine mythology as per Sanchuniathon.

quote:
What we generally call "Greek philosophy" was almost certainly derived by the Greeks
from Egyptian culture, particularly natural science (physics and math) which preoccupied
Greek thought up to the time of Plato. The Greeks seem also to have derived much
of their philosophical theology from the Egyptians as well. These are not modern
interpretations of Greek philosophy; the ancient Greeks themselves claim without
dissension that their philosophy comes from Egypt.

Which is exactly why I questioned how James or others could call such Greek traditions a "stolen legacy" in the first place! If the Greeks openly proclaim to have inherited such cultural aspects from the Egyptians how could it be "stolen"?? Nevermind the troll akoben using this topic as a strawman for his own bigotted agendas.

quote:
Whether the Greeks travelled
to Egypt or whether the Egyptians colonized or visited Greece at some point (which
is what the ancient Greeks thought) is a difficult question to answer.

This is exactly what I meant. That is which philosophic traditions were taken from Egypt and at what time period? What James proposes in his book Stolen Legacy does not make any historical sense. The Library of Alexandria was built years after Alexander conquered Egypt therefore the Aristolte let alone his predecessors cannot have "stolen" anything from the Library as the foundation of their philosophy!

If one wants to find Egyptian influence in not only philosophy but any kind of cultural attribute in Greece, one needs to look further back in time well before Alexander or the Hellenistic period.

quote:
Pythagoreanism began towards the end of the 6th century in the Greek cities in
southern Italy; this school sought an intellectual foundation for a certain religious
way of life, and was more abstract and mathematical than the Milesians (and much
more heavily influenced by Egyptian thought). Much of their thought remains completely
obscure and impenetrable. They principally sought to purify the soul by strict rules of
life; they believed in metempsychosis (the transmigration of souls to animals and
even plants); and they found the essential unity of things to lie not in a physical
substrate but in number and numerical relations. For the Pythagoreans, the one
thing that formed the substrate of all the infinite things in the universe was number.


http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/PRESOC.HTM
©1996, Richard Hooker

This is what I want to know. Which aspects of philosophy was influence from Egypt and which was truly Greek. I have only read about the 'Mystery Schools' of Greece and Pythagoras but how true are the claims that early Greek philosophers actually studied in Egypt??
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Doug M
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The most obvious surviving example of the "wisdom" of the ancient Egyptians are texts like that of the "Instructions for Kagemni", which are the basis for the books of proverbs and psalms (the best parts of the bible IMO):

quote:

The humble man flourishes, and he who deals uprightly is praised. The innermost chamber is opened to the man of silence. Wide is the seat of the man cautious of speech, but the knife is sharp against the one who forces a path, that he advance not, save in due season.
If you sit with a company of people, desire not the food, even if you want it; it takes only a brief moment to restrain the heart, and it is disgraceful to be greedy. A handful of water quenches the thirst, and a mouthful of melon supports the heart. A good thing takes the place of what is good, and just a little takes the place of much.
..........
If you sit with a glutton, eat when he is finished; if you sit with a drunkard accept a drink, and his heart will be satisfied. Rage not against the meat in the presence of a glutton; take what he gives you and refuse it not, thinking it will be a courteous thing.

From: http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/kagemni.htm

As for "Greek philosophy", if you really understand it, then you would know that Greek philosophy falls into the following areas:

Nature of the mind, thought and speech.

Nature of forms and number.

Nature of "nature".

Nature of the universe and creation (existence).

Reason and logic.

And so on.

Nobody claims that the Greeks were the first to study or inquire about such things, but that hey were "rational" in their approach. The point being that earlier civilizations were more "superstitious" in their approach to the inner workings of the universe or that their wisdom was encroached in deep religious symbolism. But the point is that the ideas espoused by the Greeks are THE SAME ideas that are found in older civilizations. The debate is therefore whether the so-called "rational" approach of the Greeks makes their ideas more original or not. Likewise, the REAL REASON the Greeks get so much credit is because they wrote stuff down and it survived(being more recent). Aristotles works are mostly dialogues committed to paper. And Socrates himself said that dialog was the most ancient form of "wisdom". Therefore, we know that more ancient societies have been discussing the nature of the universe and creation in the form of dialogs, or mouth to ear. On top of that, most of the writings of civilizations of ancient Egypt and elsewhere have not survived and the most durable work from Egypt is from tombs and temples, which were filled with symbolism and ritual. But from the wisdom literature and the other stuff that has survived, it is clear to see that much of what the Greeks get credit for already existed.

From the list of things above we can easily use Egypt as one example of where the philosophy of Greece is nothing new at all:

Nature of the mind, thought and speech.

Thoth and Ptah as deities of speech, mind and writing are symbolic of the power of mind, speech and writing. They represent that the Egyptians understood the power and importance of such things in the development and sustainment of "organized" societies. The key here is that these represent principles of "organization" as Thoth, Djehuti and Ptah represent a universe that is ordered based on the emanations of the "divine mind" or creative force. These emanations can be called the "laws" of the Universe as they form the basis of life as we know it. Hence humans must use their minds to organize themselves and to maintain such organization through writing and speech, which become the LAWS of the society. Many of the early wisdom texts of Egypt are explicitly written with the idea that Ptah grants the power of divine speech and authority to the Pharaoh (force of authority in law through writing and speech).

Nature of forms and number.

In ancient Egyptian art and architecture you see the nature of forms and number. These themes are not only reflected in the architecture itself but also the art on the walls. Form and number are the domain of the scribes and the chief dieties Djehuti and his wife. Form and number therefore were considered the building blocks of the material universe. Khnum is one prime example of the idea of form, as khnum is the one who forms the gods from clay on the potter's wheel. Khnum and ptah are the patrons of craftsmen (those who form things) along with Djehuti, the deity of counting and numbers, as the patron of architects and scribes.

Nature of "nature".

The word nature actually derives from the word "netjer" or neter which was considered an aspect of the divine creative force in the universe. The plethora of neter in Egyptian cosmology are all related to the various demiurges or primeval forces in nature as the children of creation. These children were always created in twos, representing duality, opposites and balance, which again is an expression of the theory of form and number in nature.

Nature of the universe and creation.

All the ancient dieties of Egyptian cosmology were related to the first creation. Each demiurge represented some aspect of the creative force: Ra (force of emanation or radiation of energies). Ptah (force of mind and will), Atum (force of virbration and the unseen force (atoms,etc)) and so on. Their associated neter and other deities represent the fullness of creation as an expression of divine will power and force, manifest through the physical elements of nature (earth, wind, fire, water).

Reason and logic.

The multitude of ancient Egyptian wisdom texts shows that the AE had a firm grasp of and understanding of reason and logic. Not only the fact that they developed practical applications of theories of number in the development of mathematics and architecture. The fact that the theorems behind such concepts don't exist does not mean that the Egyptians did not understand abstract theory. And such theories came about because of trial and error and the accumulation of years of experience which leads to the observations of patterns in numbers. Obviously this has been happening long before the Greeks ever were thought about.

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BrandonP
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Djehuti, I have s9ome questions about your opinion on the origins of Greek philosophy. Do you think Greek philosophy has any Egyptian connection? How about a Near Eastern connection? If neither, how did the Greeks develop their philosophy on their own?

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Djehuti
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^ You make no sense. Of course Greek philosophy has connections with Egypt and Asia! The whole purpose of this thread was to show that. What did you think my position was, or were you beguiled by the troll Akobago??

Very well. If you want to know what my position is, I will say it again:

Greek philosophy during Classical times was developed in Greece, though I do not doubt that it like many other advanced cultural aspects like architecture, mathematics, etc. have more ancient roots from older cultures including Egypt. This is my whole point. There definitely was no cultural "theft" from Egypt as the Greeks were pretty adamant about the Egyptians being their predecessors in civilized nations. And there definitely was no "raiding" of the library of Alexandria! LOL

My only question concerns claims made by folks like Dr. Nantambu who say that Greek philosophers were actually educated in the schools of Egyptian priests. Not that I doubt the possibility, but what is the likelyhood of Egyptian priests teaching their sacred lore to foreigners even those from the north of the sea??

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Whatbox
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In the past you have commented in a thread like this implying that similar diffusionist ideas were without good merit.
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Doug M
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Yes GREEK philosophy developed in Greece. But PHILOSOPHY in general did not. They are two different things. THAT is what many Eurocentric historians are constantly trying to push down peoples throats. THAT is why they are so "against" Greek philosophy being derived from anywhere else, because they want it (thinking) to be a UNIQUE event in human history and something PARTICULAR to Europeans. People did not just suddenly start asking deep questions about the origin of the universe or why we are here or posing theoretical answers to those questions when the Greeks came along. It has been going on since the beginning of mankind. And a lot of the earliest Greek "philosophy" is quite rudimentary "duh" stuff to begin with, but some treat the WAY it is written as "special". And, given that the GREEK WORLD was primarily centered in THE EAST and Africa, it is blatantly obvious that they would have received influence from there. In fact, almost ALL conquests of the Greek empire lay in the what the Greeks considered the ANCIENT WORLD, which again was the EAST and Africa. And one of the BIGGEST MYTHS of all about Greek philosophy was that it was purely rational. SORRY, but ancient Greeks were just as mystical (superstitious) as any other ancient culture.
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alTakruri
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I'm not sure that James says the library Aristotle
built was raided or that Egyptian libraries in general
were raided by Alexander.

In either case it's but one small point. There's much
more James has written on than just that. For instance
I think he makes a point that Aristotle had few titles
in his name then suddenly after Egypt's conquest a
plethora of books have him as author. I think James
says too astonishing a number of books for one man to
even have written in so short a time span.

These and other issues need to be examined thoroughly.

But for sure if Aristotle put his name on books already
written by Egyptians, then it is a Stolen Legacy that
Aristotle bequeathed us.

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alTakruri
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James explains why stolen and who's the thief.

quote:

According to history, Pythagoras after receiving his training in Egypt, returned to his native island, Samos, where he established his order for a short time, after which he migrated to Croton (540 BC) in Southern Italy, where his order grew to enormous proportions, until his final expulsion from that country. We are also told that Thales (640 BC) who had also received his education in EGYPT and his associates: Anaximander and Anaximenes, were natives of Ionia in ASIA MINOR, which was a stronghold of the Egyptian Mystery schools, which they carried on... Similarly we are told that Xenophanes (576 BC) Paramenides, Zeno and Melissus were also natives of Ionia and that they migrated to Elea in Italy and established themselves and spread the teachings of the Mysteries.

In like manner, we are informed that Heraclitus (530 BC) Empedocles, Anaxagoras and Democritus were also native of Ionia who were interested in Physics. Hence in tracing the course of the so-called Greek philosophy, we find that Ionian students after obtaining their education from the Egyptian priests returned to their native land, while some of them migrated to different parts of Italy, where they established themselves.

Consequently, history makes it CLEAR that the surrounding neighbours of Egypt had all become familiar with the teachings of Egyptians many centuries BEFORE the Athenians, who is 399 BC sentenced Socrates to DEATH (Zeller's Hist of Phil., p.112; 127; 170-172) and subsequently caused Plato and Aristotle to FLEE for their lives from Athens because PHILOSOPHY was something FOREIGN and UNKNOWN to them. For the same reason, we would expect either Ionians or the Italians to exert their prior claim to philosophy, since it made contact with them long before it did with the Athenians, who were ALWAYS its greatest enemies, until Alexander's conquest of Egypt, which provided for Aristotle FREE ACCESS to the Library of Alexandria.

The Ionian and Italians made no attempt to claim the authorship of philosophy, because they were well aware that the Egyptians WERE the true authors. On the other hand, after the DEATH of Aristotle, his Athenian pupils without the authority of the state, undertook to compile a history of philosophy recognized at the time as Sophia or Wisdom of the Egyptians, which had become current and traditional in the ancient world, which compilation, because it was produced by pupils who belonged to Aristotle's school, later history has erroneously called Greek philosophy, in spite of the fact that the Greeks were the greatest enemies and persecutors and had persistently treated it as a foreign innovation. For this reason, the so-called Greek philosophy is STOLEN Egyptian philosophy, which first spread to Ionia, thence to Italy and thence to Italy and thence to Athens. And it must remembered that at this remote period of Greek history i.e. Thales to Aristotle 640-BC - 322 BC the Ionians WERE NOT Greek citizens BUT! at first....Egytians subjects and later Persians subjects...


Accurate or faulty? Why or why not?
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Djehuti
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^ And again, I agree with some things that James says-- that there are Egyptian and Asian roots to Greece's philosophic and other origins-- but question other things.

Like for example these mystery schools. Again that I doubt the possibility but where exactly is the historical evidence that the Egyptians trained foreigners in their sacred lore?

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

Yes GREEK philosophy developed in Greece. But PHILOSOPHY in general did not...

This was my point exactly!
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Doug M
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By the time the Greeks actually entered Egypt in force the Egyptians could not STOP them from gaining access to their "secret" lore, whatever that was. Many early Greeks went to Egypt during the time of the Persians and many other would have gone in during the time of the late 3rd intermediate period when Egypt is known to have used Greek mercenaries. So in the time period we are talking about, it is VERY LIKELY that they would have been able to have this knowledge imparted by the Egyptians. But it goes without saying that MOST of it came into Greek hands AFTER the conquest of Egypt by Alexander, along with much of the knowledge of the other lands he conquered.
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akoben
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 - "Accurate or faulty? Why or why not?" Wow, even with rare spoon feeding moment from great sage, notice again that Mary the flying nun (just as she did here with Nay-Sayer) still refuses to answer simple questions.
Notice too she still has not refuted James' book (i.e. merits of the word "stolen", accusations of a "cultural theft" etc) that she casually dismissed without reading - in typical racist fashion. Only flip flopping from one position to another: agrees that "there are Egyptian and Asian roots to [sic] Greece's philosophic and other origin[sic]" while at the same time maintaining that "GREEK philosophy developed in Greece" Notice he never engages the book and pin points exactly where James is wrong in saying that classical Greek philosophy is Egyptian.This is because – like Lefkowitz - she is going off pure prejudice not research.

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Djehuti
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^ LOL So Eva finally chooses to address the actual topic of his first claim here.

No need for useless ad-hominem attacks. Sorry but I did not flip-flop anything. My position still stands and it is still valid.

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

Yes GREEK philosophy developed in Greece. But PHILOSOPHY in general did not. They are two different things. THAT is what many Eurocentric historians are constantly trying to push down peoples throats. THAT is why they are so "against" Greek philosophy being derived from anywhere else, because they want it (thinking) to be a UNIQUE event in human history and something PARTICULAR to Europeans. People did not just suddenly start asking deep questions about the origin of the universe or why we are here or posing theoretical answers to those questions when the Greeks came along. It has been going on since the beginning of mankind. And a lot of the earliest Greek "philosophy" is quite rudimentary "duh" stuff to begin with, but some treat the WAY it is written as "special". And, given that the GREEK WORLD was primarily centered in THE EAST and Africa, it is blatantly obvious that they would have received influence from there. In fact, almost ALL conquests of the Greek empire lay in the what the Greeks considered the ANCIENT WORLD, which again was the EAST and Africa. And one of the BIGGEST MYTHS of all about Greek philosophy was that it was purely rational. SORRY, but ancient Greeks were just as mystical (superstitious) as any other ancient culture.

 -

Each time important political guests came to visit, Hitler banished Eva to her room. He was heard to say "that a highly intelligent man should always choose a primitive and stupid woman," and this said in front of Eva!

Ouch! [Big Grin]

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akoben
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Instead of tagging the observations of another poster you were required to address specific issues raised "Accurate or faulty? Why or why not?" It's a rare moment when great sage spoon feeds, so he must really want you to try and defend your stance against James book! But it seems you are indeed a f**king troll as you still flee from your responsibilities. Have you no shame? LOL

- still has not refuted James' book (i.e. merits of the word "stolen", accusations of a "cultural theft"
- never engages the book and pin points exactly where James is wrong in saying that classical Greek philosophy is Egyptian.

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Doug M
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Don't drag me into this nonsense.

Anyone who understands ancient Greece's rise to empire would understand that much of that rise was due to absorbing knowledge and treasure from the ancient cultures of Egypt, Babylon, Persia and India. It is blatantly obvious to anyone who knows anything about history.

However, whenever Europeans tell the story, Greeks are always listed as "the father of..." this or "the first to do" that, which totally and absolutely goes against all the facts. In NO HISTORY BOOK is Greece considered among the FIRST countries to be civilized with writing, math and science, yet CONSISTENTLY they are listed as the FIRST to practice these things and this point is STRESSED, not just as being part of a "Western" legacy, but as a WORLDWIDE history. Which is nothing but PURE ABSOLUTE propaganda. The issue is not whether they BUILT ON existing knowledge, which is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS, but whether they were the FIRST to pursue knowledge for knowledge sake or the first to understand the value of knowledge, which is blatantly false.

Look at the time lines. Look at the names and dates of the various thinkers. Look at the size of the empire as it spread. It is NO COINCIDENCE that the greatest scholars of Greece happened to exist AFTER Greece spanned 3 continents.... Prior to that most of the Great thinkers are only known about due to second and third hand references with little or NO direct evidence of their writings in existence. Pythagoras is an example of this as well as Socrates and others. The actual written documents of ACTUAL Greek thinkers that has been passed down to us comes MAINLY from the period when Greece controlled much of the East and was MOSTLY written OUTSIDE of Greece to begin with. That should tell you something. Compare the knowledge and accomplishments of the EARLY Greek thinkers, prior to the expansion of the Empire to that of the Greek scholars AFTER the rise of the Empire and you will see to VASTLY DIFFERENT bodies of work both quantitatively and qualitatively. Now why is that? Add to that the fact that Alexander employed armies of scribes and scholars to go over all the written material of the cultures that they conquered and it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to claim the Greeks did everything SOLELY on their own ingenuity. That is stupid. As James points out, Aristotle is considered the originator of "natural philosophy", but Ausar, Heru and Auset ARE "natural philosophy" from thousands of years earlier, tying together agriculture, reproduction, male and female sexuality and the origin of humans into a symbolic tale with powerful hidden truths. The origin stories of all the ancient Egyptian theologies ALL were "natural philosophy", concerning the origin of man, plants, animals, the stars, the universe and the planet and the forces at work in nature that made these things happen. The credit that the Greeks deserve is in writing down their insights in such a way that others could understand it without having to 'decode' the knowledge embedded in the symbolic manner of ancient Egypt. But that does not mean that Egyptians did not have "rational" thinkers of their own or treat knowledge in a rational manner. In fact, you couldn't have developed such a SOPHISTICATED level of cosmological symbolism WITHOUT a rational understanding of the workings of nature. The problem is that MOST of the Egyptian culture that survives are of structures that were of a symbolic nature, whereas their writings and teachings have mostly perished. Conversely, with ancient Greece the opposite is true, most of their physical symbolic structures have perished, while their writings predominantly survived.

Ancient Greece is the result of the combination of influences from the cultures of the Levant and Egypt. If you want to the the precursors to Greek architecture, look at Beni Hassan, Dier el Bahri and elsewhere. If you want to see influences in dress and custom look at Babylon and Persia along with Egypt. The big curly beards are EXACTLY like the ancient portraits found in Sumer and Elam. The side view portraits in two or three colors are found all over Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia prior to Greece. The stylistic freezes and borders around depictions of every day life, battles and myths is again straight out of Egypt and Mesopotamia. It ain't brand new stuff unique to Greece. And these cultures made many a life like sculpture long before Greece was thought about, even if most were not lifelike, as earlier cultures were into mass production of imagery covering almost every surface of major temples, tombs and other major constructions.

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alTakruri
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An example of what ImageMaster (and James) are
saying is Archimedes Screw. Screw Archimedes!
Egyptians were pumping water uphill with that
device before there was a Helas.

STOLEN LEGACY - when an Egyptian engineering
marvel is named for a post-Iskander "Greek."
Whoever named it Archimedes Screw is the thief
and deserves a good Greek style screwing with
that device.

INDITEMENT - Diodorus Siculus for stealing that
of Egyptian legacy and claiming it for a "Magna
Greek".
quote:

. . and what is the most surprising thing of all, they [Roman slaves] draw out the water of the streams they encounter [in Spanish mines] by means of what is called by men the Egyptian screw, which was invented by Archimedes of Syracuse at the time of his visit to Egypt;



Diodorus Siculus
Library of History, Book V, 37.3


Is it clear yet that there is a STOLEN LEGACY and
it is perfectly valid, legal, moral and dutiful to
declare, "**** stinks."

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alTakruri
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I doubt you've studied James. Until you start citing
him in your refutations I'm not bothering to respond
after this post.
quote:

But now that we have examined these matters we must enumerate what Greeks, who have won fame for their wisdom and learning, visited Egypt in ancient times in order to become acquainted with its customs and learning. For the priests of Egypt recount from the records of their sacred books that they were visited in early times by Orpheus, Musaeus, Melampus, and Daedalus, also by the poet Homer and Lycurgus of Sparta, later by Solon of Athens and the philosopher Plato, and that there came also Pythagoras of Samos and the mathematician Eudoxus, as well as Democritus of Abdera and Oenopides of Chios. As evidence for the visits of all these men they point in some cases to their statues and in others to places or buildings which bear their names, and they offer proofs from the branch of learning which each one of these men pursued, arguing that all the things for which they were admired among the Greeks were borrowed from Egypt.

Orpheus, for instance, brought from Egypt most of his mystic ceremonies, the orgiastic rites that accompanied his wanderings, and his fabulous account of his experiences in Hades. For the rite of Osiris is the same as that of Dionysus, and that of Isis very similar to that of Demeter, the names alone having been interchanged; and the punishments in Hades of the unrighteous, the Fields of the Righteous, and the fantastic conceptions, current among the many, which are figments of the imagination — all these were introduced by Orpheus in imitation of Egyptian funeral customs.

And as proof of the presence of Homer they adduce various pieces of evidence , and especially the healing drink which brings forgetfulness of all past evils, which was given by Helen to Telemachus in the home of Menelaus [in Book Four of the Odyssey] ... for, they allege, even to this day the women of this city [Thebes in Egypt] use this powerful remedy.

Lycurgus also and Plato and Solon, they say, incorporated many Egyptian customs into their own legislation. And Pythagoras learned from Egyptians his teachings about the gods, his geometrical propositions and theory of numbers, as well as the transmigration of souls into every living thing.



Diodorus Siculus

Library of History, Book I, 96-98



How can you or anyone look at a plane side of the Great
Pyramid and then accredit the Square of the Hypotenuse
as a Pythagorean Theorem?


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ And again, I agree with some things that James says-- that there are Egyptian and Asian roots to Greece's philosophic and other origins-- but question other things.

Like for example these mystery schools. Again that I doubt the possibility but where exactly is the historical evidence that the Egyptians trained foreigners in their sacred lore?



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argyle104
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Interesting how this Djehuti character gets beatdown by his senior pack members. In this case Doug and alTakruri, then submissively and passively retreats back under the house like a scared puppy. LOL : )
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Djehuti
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^ And how was I beaten down?? I merely asked a question which was answered! Come on now, Argay there's no need to describe what happens to you in real life (beaten down) to me or any other forum member. LOL And I'm sure that is what happens to a leaking milky way who love getting violated over and over again by other males. [Wink]
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ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
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^ LOL [Big Grin] . Take it easy on agile. He's going through a rough patch in his life right now.


[Big Grin]

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Tarkuri, You guys are off in moonbeam land on this Greek stuff. I have never, in all of my life, heard such ignorant babble.
Greek philosophy, art, science drama etc was all home grown.

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alTakruri
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Thank you for your unlearned opinion.

--------------------
Intellectual property of YYT al~Takruri © 2004 - 2017. All rights reserved.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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well, every classical scholar who has ever lived agrees with my unlearned opinion. You guys make up a list of rascist mumbo jumbo and pass it off as history. the sad part is there might be a young guy or two who is infected with this nonsense and ends up educationally crippled for years.
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akoben
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ And how was I beaten down??

You jackass you denied a stolen legacy and claimed Greek classical philosophy was "home grown". Having been beaten down on both counts you have yet to reply, "I doubt you've studied James. Until you start citing him in your refutations I'm not bothering to respond after this post."

and we all know you will never reply; like patriot you can only curse but nothing more.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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aboken, you cannot have a conversation with a fence post. When someone starts talking about 'Stolen Legacy' and denies that greek philosophy was home grown it is very much like talking to someone who thinks the earth is flat. There is no place to start.
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
well, every classical scholar who has ever lived agrees with my unlearned opinion. You guys make up a list of rascist mumbo jumbo and pass it off as history. the sad part is there might be a young guy or two who is infected with this nonsense and ends up educationally crippled for years.

Greek art is modeled on the art of Egypt, Babylon and Persia. There is nothing new about it or homegrown.

 -

 -

 -

OLD kingdom pottery
 -

 -


Greek musical instruments were modeled on those from Egypt, Babylon and Persia. Again nothing new or homegrown about it.

Greek math was modeled on that from Egypt, Babylon, Persia and India. Nothing new or homegrown about it again.

Your claims that Greek this and that are homegrown is simply a lie. Greece did not invent math, writing, arithmetic, architecture, philosophy or science PURELY as a homegrown event. Almost all historians acknowledge these influences on ancient Greek culture and civilization so again you claiming otherwise proves YOU to be the one who doesn't agree with the scholars. Yes of course ancient Greece had its own homegrown style of art and pottery, but that style STILL had tremendous influence from elsewhere and does not represent a SEPARATE or INDEPENDENT invention apart from the traditions and trends that predated it by thousands of years.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Oh now we are art experts here. Only a moron claims that every classical scholar is a liar doug. Nobody is going to buy your crap doug.
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Oh now we are art experts here. Only a moron claims that every classical scholar is a liar doug. Nobody is going to buy your crap doug.

Actually I called YOU a liar. Classical scholars don't make absurd claims like Greek art being completely HOME GROWN. Any discussion on Greek Art that I have read has discussed the PHOENICIAN and EGYPTIAN impact on this area. If art did not originate in Greece and people have been sculpting figures for cosmological and political purposes since thousands of years before the Greeks, then how can art in Greece be HOME GROWN? It can't be. Again, you are using weasel words. Home grown has no meaning in the context of the flow of history in the sense that Greeks did not INVENT ART and ARCHITECTURE. Therefore, it COULD NOT have been home grown if OTHER people invented it before them and in the SAME neighborhood. YOU know this, but this is why you use weasel words and half truths to try and make it seem as if the Greeks RE INVENTED all of this TOTALLY SEPARATELY AND INDEPENDENTLY from all the other cultures around them. NO scholar claims this. Classical or otherwise. YOU need to stop trying to MISREPRESENT what "classical" scholarship really is. Classical only refers to a TIME PERIOD of Greek history that is considered the HIGH POINT or APOGEE of Greek art and culture. It DOES NOT mean that it is NEW or UNIQUE or THE FIRST. It only means that others consider it a CLASSIC style that should be emulated. Classical does not mean FIRST, especially in terms of Greece being the FIRST to produce any sort of art or architecture.

quote:

A striking change appears in Greek art of the seventh century B.C., the beginning of the Archaic period. The abstract geometric patterning that was dominant between about 1050 and 700 B.C. is supplanted in the seventh century by a more naturalistic style reflecting significant influence from the Near East and Egypt. Trading stations in the Levant and the Nile Delta, continuing Greek colonization in the east and west, as well as contact with eastern craftsmen, notably on Crete and Cyprus, inspired Greek artists to work in techniques as diverse as gem cutting, ivory carving, jewelry making, and metalworking (1989.281.49-.50). Eastern pictorial motifs were introduced—palmette and lotus compositions, animal hunts, and such composite beasts as griffins (part bird, part lion), sphinxes (part woman, part winged lion), and sirens (part woman, part bird). Greek artists rapidly assimilated foreign styles and motifs into new portrayals of their own myths and customs, thereby forging the foundations of Archaic and Classical Greek art art.

From: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/argk/hd_argk.htm

Again you are stuck on trying to make an eastern orient civilization into something "western" when WESTERN has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING about ancient Greece.

quote:

From its very beginnings, Ionic art has shown a strong stylistic tendency towards a more "oriental," Near Eastern, or Egyptian appearance, evident in relief design persisting even through the Classical Period, in comparison to the art of the Greek mainland. When Ionic temple architecture began to bloom in the early Archaic Period (late 7th-early 6th centuries BCE), it took an even more drastic path of innovative, non Doric form than contemporary reliefwork and sculpture. The origin and development of the Ionic Order of architecture, along with the Ionian people, is a very different story from that of its Doric cousin on the Greek mainland. William B. Dinsmoor writes:

We have traced the story of the foundation of the Ionian colonies by the fleeing remnants of the Mycenaean populations [36ff], of their early contacts with the native peoples of Phrygia, Mysia, Lydia, and Lycia, and of the colonies which they in turn, as they increased in power, sent off to other parts of the Greek world. The result of this dispersion is that our knowledge of the Ionic style has to be gathered, not only from the great cities of Asia Minor, but also from the trading colonies such as Naucratis in Egypt, and from outposts established to receive surplus populations, such as Rhegium (Reggio) in southern Italy and Masilia (Marseilles) in France.1

In light of the dispersion of the Ionian peoples across the Mediterranean World, it becomes imperative to look not only at the architecture of the Ionic coast, but also that of the Ionian colonies in foreign nations to formulate a realistic understanding of the Ionic Order and to reconstruct its stylistic elements and visions. Of likely influence on the developing Ionic Order of the early Archaic Period is the architecture of Ancient Egypt, because of strong precedent for artistic influence and a historical and cultural context ideal for the transmission of artistic and architectural notions. As a result, it is sensible to consider the Egyptianizing peculiarities in Egyptian Ionic architecture when trying to understand the origin, development, and meaning of Archaic Ionic architecture.

This paper seeks to help us further understand some of the many possible and simultaneous influences contributing to the Ionic Order and to give us a greater understanding of what the Ionians had hoped to express through their innovative temple architecture in light of their Egyptian allies. Relying heavily on ancient testimony and modern scholarship, we begin with an analysis of the Egyptian influence on Greek sculpture contemporary to early Archaic architecture in order to establish sufficient precedent for the transmission of artistic style and technique between the Egyptians and Greeks. Having established a precedent for the Greek importation of Egyptian artistic ideas, we then move on to examine the cultural, historic, and economic situation in the Egyptian Delta region of the Saite Period, during which time the Ionian are invited to found a colony of increasing significance and prosperity in the Mediterranean World. This exploration is an effort to exposed a social climate, in which the transference of artistic and architectural ideas, along with cultural wares and trade goods, not only had strong precedent, but was even greatly encouraged by the political climate of the Egyptian and Ionian nations. Once the scene is properly set, we are ready to discuss specific examples of Egyptian architecture, which may have had a profound impact on the development of the Archaic Ionic architectural style. We will also look at specific works of Ionic architecture, which are exemplary of such Egyptian influences in their experiential, formal, and stylistic elements.

The Egyptian Presence in Archaic Greek Statuary

It has been observed that, as far as Herodotus and his contemporaries are concerned, no Greek sculpture of significance was created before the 7th century2, until Near Eastern, especially Egyptian, influence began a period of emulation in Greece commonly referred to as the Orientalizing Period, or Proto-Archaic Period (c. 7th century BCE). Along those lines, many ancient sources wrote of an Egyptian likeness in Archaic Greek statuary. Diodorus Siculus (active c. 60-30 BCE) states in his Library of History that Egypt's ancient statuary is "identical in form (rhythmos) to those later wrought by Daedalos amongst the Greeks."3 Along those lines, Diodorus also relates the story of Theodorus4 and Telekles, the sons of Rhoikos and "most renowned of the ancient sculptors," who are said to have spent time in Egypt.

They carved the wooden statue of Pythian Apollo for the Samians, of which it is reported that half of the image was fabricated by Telekles in Samos, and the other half was completed by his brother Theodoros at Ephesus. But when the parts were brought together, they dovetailed with each other so well that the entire work seemed to have been accomplished by one man. ... Thus, in conformity with the ingenuity of the Egyptians, the wooden statue in Samos is cleft in two and the figure divided down the middle from the crown of the head to the genitals, each side being identical to the other. For the most part, they say, it resembles the statues of the Egyptians, in that its hands are held straight and the legs are parted in stride.5

While this account should not be taken as literal truth, the point remains that early Archaic Greek sculptors are thought by the Greeks to have been influence by Egyptian artistic style. Murphy further maintains that Theodoros and Telekles "probably owed something of their technique to Egyptian influence, especially the reformed Saite cannon of art, which divided the human figure by twenty-one horizontal grids."6 Likewise, Pausanias tells us that the "image of Apollo called the 'Pythian' and the Dekatephoros [in the ancient temple of Apollo at Megara] is very much like Egyptian carved images" (1.42.5) and that the ancient image from the temple of Athena at Priene "is not like those called Aeginetan, nor is it like most ancient images of Attica, but rather, if anything, it is distinctly Egyptian" (7.5.5).7 Therefore, while Archaic Greek sculpture of a distinctly Egyptian form may have stood out amongst its Aeginetan and Attic contemporaries, this Egyptian stylistic influence was far from scarce.8 In Greek Sculpture: the Archaic Period, John Boardman further emphasizes the likelihood of an Egyptian influence in the development of Archaic Greek sculpture:

In Egypt [during the reign of Psammetichus I (664-610)] the Greeks saw lifesize statuary, and larger, in hard stone, for standing and seated figures, superficially not unlike their own less ambiguous statues and statuettes, with some features already familiar to them from the egyptianizing arts of the near east. It would not have required many visits by craftsmen, being Greeks and imbued with characteristic Greek curiosity and aptitude to learn, for these novel (to them) concepts in statuary and the means of their execution to be introduced to Greece itself. ... it is impossible not to associate this new era in Greek sculpture with the influence from Egypt.9

In agreement with Classical authors, modern scholars generally support likely role Egyptian sculptural form and technique played in the development of Archaic Greek sculpture. This evidence for an Egyptian influence establishes a significant precedent for further cultural and artistic transmission between Egypt and Greece of the early Archaic Period and we will now see that the Egyptian influence on Archaic Greece did not end solely with sculpture.

Greco-Egyptian Cultural Transmission

The Archaic Period saw the blossoming of trade relations between Greece and Egypt for the first time since the Bronze Age. During this period of renewed commerce, many cultural goods were exchanged along with colonists, mercenaries, and artisans. Herodotus states that the 26th Dynasty King Psammetichus (Psamtik I, 664-610 BCE) gave to the Ionian and Carian mercenaries, who helped him gain the Egyptian throne, "two pieces of land, opposite one another on each side of the Nile, ... [and] went so far as to put some Egyptian boys into their charge to be taught Greek; and their learning of the language was the origin of the class of Egyptian interpreters."10 Psammetichus campaigned between 664 and 657 throughout Lower Egypt for reunification of Egypt and was the first Egyptian ruler to employ Greek and Carian mercenaries, establishing a standard in Near Eastern and Mediterranean conflict for centuries to come.11 James Henry Breasted notes in his History of Egypt that Psammetichus was probably also the first Egyptian ruler to favor Greek colonies in Egypt.12 Before long, Egypt was filled with Greek merchants and their manufacturing settlements, especially in the western Delta region near Sais, the royal capital of the Saite period. The ancient capital of Memphis now had Greek and Carian quarters, and other large Egyptian cities likely apportioned similar areas for Greek and additional foreign expatriates. Continuous communication between Greek states and Egypt soon established direct and sometimes intimate relations between the two nations. The Greek military also recruited many mercenaries returning home after their terms of employment in the campaigns of Psammetichus and Greek merchants assuredly returned home with numerous tales, artifacts, and ideas borrowed from the Egyptian world they frequented.13 A few generations later, Amasis (Ahmose II, 570-526 BCE) "subsequently turned them [the Greek mercenaries] out and brought them to Memphis, to protect him from his own people. They were the first foreigners to live in Egypt, and after their original settlement there, the Greeks began regular intercourse with the Egyptians."14 Amasis further reorganized trade relations with Greece and designated the Nile Delta port city of Naukratis as the commercial headquarters for foreign settlers in Egypt, where the Greeks were given a definitive monopoly on all seaborne trade.15 Land was also granted to the Greek settlers at Naukratis, whereupon they built not only houses, but also temples and altars to their own gods and goddesses.16

The far-reaching influence of Amasis was equally apparent in Greece. Herodotus states he gave one thousand talents in alum for the rebuilding of the temple at Delphi, after its accidental destruction by fire, when it was to cost no more than three hundred talents, and to the Greeks, who had settled in Egypt, he gave twenty minae.17 Amasis gave further gifts as dedications to various temples throughout Greece. "To Cyrene he sent a gold-plated statue of Athena and a painting of himself; to the temple of Athena at Lindos, two statues in stone and a remarkable linen corselet; and to the goddess Hera at Samos two likenesses of himself, in wood, which until my own time stood behind the doors in the great temple."18 If Herodotus' account of Amasis were to be believed, that would place actual works of Egyptian art directly in Archaic Ionic temples.

Simultaneous with the blossoming of trade relations between Greece (particularly Ionia) and Egypt, to the increasing Ionian colonization of the Delta region, and to the Egyptian influence in Archaic Greek sculpture, the Ionians began constructing colossal works of temple architecture of an unprecedented scale and form.19 Significant innovations in Ionian temple architecture of this period greatly resemble long established and commonly implemented elements of the Egyptian colossal architectural tradition. It has been shown above that early Greek sculptural form and style heavily borrowed from Egyptian tradition and that the Greeks may have housed Egyptian works within their temples. Why, then, can one not suppose that the Greek peoples so closely in contact with Egyptian civilization might have similarly incorporated Egyptian architectural form or technique into the evolving Archaic Greek temple? This theory, in fact, is supported by ample evidence in the way of ancient testimony on Egyptian influence on Greek architecture and a comparative analysis of Greek and Egyptian archaeological remains and reconstructions. An analysis of the artistic situation in the Egyptian Delta region during the Archaic period may first prove helpful in discovering an atmosphere, in which transmission of artistic and architectural form, style, and ideas may have been likely, if not encouraged.

With the blossoming trade relations between the Greeks and Egyptians, the cultural and political setting of the Mediterranean in the late 7th to 6th centuries was, in fact, perfect for the transference of artistic and architectural notions between the Egyptians and Greeks. This period in Egypt was a time of great artistic and architectural revival, a renaissance after the decline of the former Ethiopian and Assyrian dynasties, with the repair of the pyramids of the ancient Memphite kings and the restoration of their mortuary cults, and with significant additions by many of the Saite rulers to the temples at Sais and Memphis. Monumental constructions throughout Egypt of this period included colossal statuary, obelisks, propylaea, colonnaded courts, and further elements of traditional Egyptian architectural design. With architectural construction being so vigorous during this period, particularly in the Delta region around Sais and Naukratis, it is almost inconceivable that Greek settlers and travelers in Egypt did not witness the erection of colossal additions to Egyptian temples. If contemporary examples of an Egyptian influence on Greek statuary are indicative of a Greek reception of Egyptian artistic ideas, it also becomes unlikely that the Greeks in Egypt did not adopt Egyptian architectural elements for their developing canon.

Egyptian Influence on Ionic Architecture

An examination of the architectural remains of the Archaic Greeks in Egypt may reveal features or stylistic elements suggestive of an Egyptian influence on their design. During the reign of Amasis, Herodotus tells us that the Greek settlers of Naukratis constructed numerous temples to their own gods and goddesses. He writes:

[Amasis] made grants of land upon which Greek traders, who did not want to live permanently in Egypt, might erect altars and temples. Of these latter the best known and most used--and also the largest--is the Hellenium; it was built by the joint efforts of the Ionians of Chios, Teos, Phocaea, and Clazomenae, of the Dorians of Rhodes, Cnidos, Halicarnassus, and Phaselis, and of the Aeolians of Mytilene. ... the Aeginetans, however, did build a temple of Zeus separately, the Samians one in honor of Hera, and the Milesians another in honor of Apollo.

Very little evidence of the Greek temples survives or has been excavated at Naukratis, but their temenos foundations and occasional temple foundations have been discovered. Perhaps the most significant find of Archaic Greek architecture at Naukratis is a capital from the colossal Ionic Temple of Apollo (c. 566 BCE). This capital marks the point of transformation from the Proto-Ionic examples, with their volutes springing vertically from the shafts, to the capitals of the Ionic order, where the volutes "now lie horizontally, and are connected by the cushion, and below them the girdle of hanging leaves has become the egg-and-dart, the ovolo or echinus" (figs. 10 and 11). Just below the astragal (the small rounded moulding just beneath the volute), on the uppermost part of the column shaft is a necking decorated with the Egyptian lotus flower and bud, which may have been the prototype of the anthemion, a continuous pattern of alternating palmette (a Mesopotamian floral decoration) and stylized lotus popular to Ionic columns of later periods. The absence of the palmette on the Naukratis capital emphasizes the purely Egyptian influence. From the scanty remains at Naukratis and Sais, the two most significant cities to the Saite Dynasty and the Archaic Greek presence in the Delta region, minor evidence suggests an Egyptian influence on the development of Archaic Ionic architecture. An examination of specific Egyptian architectural feats visible and accessible to the Archaic Greeks and a close look at general Egyptian architectural traditions may provide further evidence suggesting an Egyptian influence on Greek architecture, if not the colossal Archaic Ionic temple, itself.

The Egyptian Labyrinth

One monument of Ancient Egypt that may have had significant impact on the development of the stylistic and formal elements of Greek architecture has little connection with the Saite Dynasty, but is known to have been a popular attraction for Greek and Roman travelers. The 12th Dynasty mortuary temple of the pyramid complex of Amenemhet III (1855-1808 BCE) at Hawara, the royal necropolis in the southeastern Fayum region came to be known by Classical authors and travelers as the Egyptian Labyrinth, most certainly due to the supposed twisting, maze-like characteristics of its inner chambers. The Egyptian Labyrinth occupies the attention of many Classical authors, who never hesitate to mention the tremendous impact it is said to have had on Greek and Aegean architecture. Many ancient authors maintain that Daedalus fashioned his legendary Labyrinth of Minos after "the first [labyrinth] ever to be constructed," the so-called Egyptian Labyrinth near Lake Moeris. Diodorus Siculus writes, "Daedalus, they say, reconstructed in Crete the tangled paths of the Egyptian Labyrinth, which still exists down to the present time and which was built many years prior to the reign of Minos." Likewise, in Pliny's account of civilization's famous labyrinths, he asserts that "there is no doubt that Daedalus adopted it [the Egyptian Labyrinth] as the model for the labyrinth built by him in Crete, but that he reproduced only a hundredth part of it containing passages that wind, advance and retreat in a bewilderingly intricate manner." While these accounts of King Minos and Daedalus may have their basis in myth rather than fact, it remains that Classical authors firmly believed that Egyptian architecture had influenced Aegean architecture in some way.

There is little evidence proving that the Egyptian Labyrinth directly influenced additional works of Greek architecture, but Pliny does include the 6th century colossal Ionic temple of Hera on the island of Samos in his account of famous labyrinths. While Pliny does not detail the influence the Egyptian Labyrinth may have had on the design of the temple of Hera, the so-called Rhoikos temple, the inclusion of this colossal Ionic temple in his account of labyrinths clearly associates it with the Egyptian marvel. The question then arises why Pliny and his contemporaries (his source at the very least) were prompted to consider the Rhoikos temple a labyrinth comparable to the famed Labyrinth of Egypt. To gain an accurate understanding of why the Rhoikos temple was considered a labyrinth, we must isolate the characteristic elements of a traditional labyrinth and examine the Rhoikos temple in this context. The isolation of characteristic elements of a labyrinth may further lead us to the recognition of features in common with both the Egyptian Labyrinth and the Rhoikos temple. Once labyrinthine similarities between the Egyptian and Samian Labyrinths have been isolated, we can look for further stylistic and formal similarities between the two structures. We can then attempt to determine whether or not these similarities are the result of an Egyptian influence on the Rhoikos temple and, possibly, Archaic colossal Ionic architecture as a whole.

The Meaning of the Name

An isolation of characteristic elements of the labyrinth, in its generic form, would best begin with an examination of the meaning of the word "labyrinth," or the Greek laburinqoV. Liddell and Scott's Intermediate Lexicon defines laburinqoV as a "maze, a building consisting of halls connected by tortuous passages," consistent with the Classical and modern usage of the word. Sir Arthur Evans, however, offers us a colorful etymology of the word in maintaining the "labyrinth" is derived from labrys, the Lydian (or Carian) name for the Greek double-edged axe. The suffix "-nth" is believed to belong to a group of pre-Hellenic words surviving in place names, like Corinth (Korinthos) and Zakynthos. Thus "labyrinth" is thought to denote originally the "place of the double axe," which is likely a reference to the palace of Knossos, where the double axe featured prominently among ornamentation and iconography. The Classical and modern usage of labyrinth, however, seems to have lost all connection with its original meaning and to have adopted a meaning describing either the visitor's experience of the ruins of Knossos or the description of King Minos' Labyrinth of Classical myth.

The Egyptian Labyrinth gets its Classical name, of course, from its characteristic hallways and chambers, "which are long and numerous and have winding passages communicating with one another, so that no stranger can find his way either into any court or out of it without a guide." One can almost get lost in Herodotus' appropriately convoluted description of the Labyrinth:

The upper rooms, on the contrary, I did actually see, and it is hard to believe that they are the work of men; the baffling and intricate passages from room to room and from court to court were an endless wonder to me, as we passed from a courtyard into rooms, from rooms into galleries, from galleries into more rooms, and thence into yet more courtyards.

In his Natural History, Pliny also comments on how "doors are let into the walls at frequent intervals to suggest deceptively the way ahead and to force the visitors to go back upon the very same tracks that he has already followed in his wanderings." Diodorus further sums up the Classical traveler's experience of the Egyptian Labyrinth in calling it "a work remarkable not so much for its size as for its unrivaled cleverness of construction: for it is hard for anyone venturing inside to find his way out again, unless he has obtained a guide of fully proven experience." In no lengthy account of the Egyptian Labyrinth do Classical authors fail to comment on its baffling, confusing, maze-like characteristics. Similar characteristics are also ascribed to all other labyrinths of history. In the introduction to his account of the world's famous labyrinths, Pliny labels them "quite the most abnormal (portentosissimum) achievement on which man has spent his resources." In his description of the Cretan Labyrinth, supposedly based largely on the Egyptian Labyrinth, he speaks of "passages that wind, advance and retreat in a bewilderingly intricate manner." Pliny then borrows a description of the Italian, or Etruscan, Labyrinth from the 1st century BCE Roman scholar Marcus Varro, in which he says "... there is a tangled labyrinth, which no one must enter without a ball of thread if he is to find his way out."

One labyrinth in Pliny's account, however, is not given the characteristic appellation of housing a bewildering maze of passages. What Pliny calls the Lemnian Labyrinth (Lemnius) is described as being similar to the Cretan Labyrinth, but in what respect we are not told. Pliny considers it more noteworthy than the Cretan "only in virtue of its 150 columns, the drums of which were so well balanced as they hung in the workshop that a child was able to turn them on the lathe." Pliny is now generally considered to have been describing the early Archaic Temple of Hera at Samos, the above-mentioned Rhoikos temple. Evidence in favor of this structure being the Rhoikos temple at Samos is found in Pliny's description of the use of a lathe to form the column drums. The column bases of the Rhoikos temple show clear traces of having been turned out by lathes. Pliny further cites Zmilis, Rhoecus, and Theodorus as the architects of this labyrinth and all as natives of Lemnos, when, in fact, Rhoecus (Rhoikos) and Theodorus were the architects of the temple of Hera at Samos and were natives of Samos. Additionally, Pliny already places the Greek labyrinth on Samos in an earlier book of his work when he writes: "Theodorus, who constructed the Labyrinth at Samos, cast a statue of himself in bronze." Lastly Pliny's misplacement of the Samian Labyrinth in Lemnos is possibly the result of a misinterpretation of Greek term en limnais, meaning "in the marshes," which designates the location of the temple of Hera at Samos.

The Samian Labyrinth

Why does Pliny include the Rhoikos temple among the famous labyrinths of history? What elements of the Rhoikos temple prompt Pliny to consider it a labyrinth? As we have seen above, Classical authors ascribe to all labyrinths characteristics such as "tangled paths," "passages that wind, advance and retreat in a bewilderingly intricate manner," "winding passages communicating with one another," "baffling and intricate passages," deceptive suggestions, the wanderings of a visitor, the need for a guide or a ball of thread to find the way out again, and many other similar descriptions on the notable maze-like features of a labyrinth. In light of the abundance of similar descriptions of labyrinths among Classical authors over the ages and in light of the lack of generosity on the part of any one Classical author to put forth a specific definition of what constitutes a labyrinth, it seems reasonably safe to conclude that a labyrinth may be defined as a structure possessing stylistic and formal elements similar those mentioned above. As such, to be considered a labyrinth, the colossal Ionic temple of Hera at Samos must have possessed features suggestive to an ancient visitor of baffling, winding, intricate passages, or the like.

In addition to the unprecedented colossal size, a remarkable innovation to Greek temple architecture in the Ionic temples of the 6th century is the vastly increased number of columns within the temple peristyle and interior. The peristyle, in fact, consisted of a depth of two columns about the temple perimeter, referred to as dipteral, and columns of the same colossal dimensions then continued into the pronaos and sometimes the naos of the cella building. It is thought by some that the effect upon a visitor's experience of these temples induced by the number of colossal columns might lead to the perception of a certain labyrinthine quality. On the labyrinthine effect of the Rhoikos temple, Dinsmoor writes:

The earliest of these [colossal dipteral Ionic temples] was designed for the sanctuary of Hera at Samos by Rhoecus and Theodorus of that island, inspired by the great columned halls of Egyptian temples such as the so-called Labyrinth near Lake Moeris described by Herodotus and Strabo; the Samian temple was likewise on that account called the Labyrinth.

Dinsmoor directly compares the Rhoikos temple to the Egyptian Labyrinth, designating the latter as exemplary of the Egyptian architectural characteristics, which influenced the design of the Rhoikos temple. The key architectural characteristic that influenced the Rhoikos temple, according to Dinsmoor, is the "columned halls," or the colonnaded courts and hypostyle halls found in nearly every traditional Egyptian temple. On account of the great columned halls of Egyptian temples such as the Labyrinth, and on account of the vast expanse of densely gathered columns in the peristyle and cella of the Rhoikos temple, these structures were considered labyrinthine. When discussing the Samian Labyrinth, Pliny further supports the significance of the columns and discusses no other features that may have been cause for its labyrinthine quality.

One must wonder then what it is about a vast expanse of columns that makes a structure seem labyrinthine, or maze-like. Within an Egyptian hypostyle hall, it is somewhat easy to perceive the labyrinthine effect in that one's vision is entirely obscured beyond the horizontal and vertical axes by the densely compacted grid of towering columns (fig. 1). One's narrow line of sight is further terminated by a pylon or wall stretching from floor to ceiling. In effect, the visitor is completely surrounded by a network of towering walls, whether physical or virtually created by the columnar effect. The labyrinthine effect induced through the columns of the Rhoikos temple may have been quite similar. As with the Egyptian hypostyle hall, the visitor's field of vision is tightly constrained when standing within the cella building of the Ionic temple or even alongside the cella's external wall. The surrounding, densely populated, grid-like forest of columns in the peristyle similarly restricts the field of vision to the horizontal and vertical axes of the temple with occasional opportunity to glimpse along a tangential path (figs. 6, 7, and 9).

The Labyrinths are not the sole source of architectural features indicative of an Egyptian influence in the Archaic Ionic temple. Many formal, stylistic, and experiential elements in traditional Egyptian temple design strongly resemble characteristics of the Ionic temple.

Egyptian Elements in Ionic Colossal Temples

The peristyle of the Rhoikos temple and other colossal Ionic temples of the Archaic period is likely to have developed as a result of an Egyptian influence on Greek temple architectural design. As mentioned above, the colossal Ionic temple was given a peristyle of unprecedented size and innovative form in its dipteral colonnade, which Dinsmoor clearly describes in his treatment of the dipteral peristyle as having been inspired by Egyptian temple design. Colossal architecture and the dipteral colonnade were certainly anything but unprecedented in Egypt during the Greek Archaic period (late 7th through 6th centuries BCE). Colossal temple architecture can be seen as far back as the early Old Kingdom of Egypt with the splendid valley and mortuary temples of the Pyramid Age (2551-2472 BCE). Furthermore, the dipteral colonnade becomes a common addition to the traditional Egyptian temple certainly by the New Kingdom (1550-1070 BCE, figs. 2 and 3).

In addition to the strong precedent and a chronological context permitting an Egyptian influence on the development of the dipteral Ionic peristyle, many stylistic similarities can also be drawn between the Egyptian colonnade and the colossal Ionic peristyle. One similarity is observed in the widened central intercolumniation of both the Ionic peristyle and the Egyptian colonnade and hypostyle hall, the difference being that the central columns of the Egyptian hypostyle hall are far more massive than the columns on either side (compare figs. 3 and 8). On the possible Egyptian origin for the widened central intercolumniation of colossal Ionic temples, A. W. Lawrence writes in his Greek Architecture:

At the front of each temple stood two rows of eight columns--an unprecedented number, though soon to be surpassed. Their spacing was graduated to emphasize the entrance by a wider intercolumniation; the Egyptians habitually designed the halls of temples in that manner, and the idea of massing great numbers of columns may also have been inspired by knowledge of Egypt.

The experiential effect of this widened central intercolumniation of both the Egyptian and Ionic temple is one of strong emphasis on the entrance or entranceway of the structure along the central vertical axis.

The continuation of columns no less significant in scale than those of the peristyle into the pronaos of the Ionic temple could also be seen as mimicking of the Egyptian hypostyle hall and processional colonnade (see figs. 2 and 3). Dinsmoor observes that the Rhoikos temple had one hundred two columns in the exterior peristyle, "besides two rows of five each in the deep pronaos, which seems to have been inspired by the central aisles of the Egyptian hypostyle hall" (figs. 7 and 8). In addition to the preservation of column scale, continuity between the Ionic peristyle and temple interior is established by preserving the widened central intercolumniation of the peristyle among the interior columns. This continuity designates a clear path or channel, down which the visitor is encouraged to advance into the temple interior, not unlike the strong processional aspect of the Egyptian temple. The processional quality of the Egyptian temple is clearly seen throughout its many parts, from the long avenue of sphinxes or roadway lined with trees during the temple approach, to the series of massive pylons with proportionally narrow, yet towering, entranceways, and to the series of courts, hallways, and chambers of progressively increasing elevation and smaller dimensions. During this long and elaborate procession, however, the pathway is never unclear, for, from the very first outer pylon to the doorway of the deepest, smallest, holiest naos, the processional aisle running down the central vertical axis of the temple remains perfectly straight and its width constant. In the temple's conceptual design, this permits the observer to peer from the very front of the temple or even the approaching causeway into the far-off most sacred naos and upon the icon of the god (fig. 4).

The Egyptian and colossal Ionic temples exhibit further similarity in the conceptual continuity between the structure and the landscape. As expressed above, the dense collection of numerous columns in the Ionic temple peristyle and cella building produce a sort of "forest of columns" effect. In addition to the labyrinthine experiential effect, the "forest of columns" could have also served to associate the temple structure with the surrounding landscape as a metaphorical or sometimes literal reflection of a surrounding sacred grove. The forest of columns in the Egyptian temple similarly reflects the landscape, not necessarily of the immediate surroundings, but of the mythical "marshland vegetation, which sprang up around the primeval mound of creation--symbolized by the temple's inner shrine." The great variety of column types representing different domestic plant life at different stages of development in the Egyptian temple further emphasizes the diversity of the natural environment on the banks of the Nile. The continuity between landscape and structure in the Ionic temple could be further reflective of the processional quality of the temple complex. During the processional approach to the temple along the "sacred way" (much like the Egyptian "avenue of sphinxes"), the distinction between the temple and landscape is blurred to the point that a clear boundary between exterior and interior cannot be drawn. Similarly, the open-air courtyards and clerestory lighting give the interior of the Egyptian temple a somewhat exterior feel. As the visitor or priest processes through the Egyptian temple along the central aisle into the progressively smaller darker chambers, the point at which one is within the structural interior and no longer out in the open air is substantially blurred.

Through a close examination of the colossal Ionic temple of the early Archaic period, we have discovered many experiential, formal, and stylistic elements strongly evocative of traditional Egyptian temple design. From an analysis of contemporary Greek sculpture with its Egyptian influence, we have also discovered strong precedent for the Greek importation of Egyptian artistic ideas. Our examination of the Greco-Egyptian cultural and economic relations of this period, further, exposed a social climate perfectly suitable to Greek accessibility to Egyptian architecture, and a climate, in which the transference of artistic and architectural ideas, along with cultural wares and further items of trade, was even encouraged by the highest social, political, and religious leaders of the Egyptian and Ionian nations. The purpose of this discussion was not to defeat theories on the origins and development of Ionic architecture, but to help us further understand one of the many possible influences contributing to the Ionic Order. These discoveries may also help give us a greater understanding of cultural relations in the Archaic Period and an understanding of what the Ionians had hoped to express through their innovative temple architecture in light of their Egyptian allies.

With the exception of a brief comment on the multiple possible origins for the Ionic volute, this paper does not address some of the likely Near Eastern or Aegean Bronze Age sources for the seemingly innovative features of the colossal Archaic Ionic temples. As for Near Eastern influences on Ionic architecture, it may be said that further Oriental elements in Greek art often found emerged after having undergone "sundry modifications" on their way from Egypt through the Near East and into Ionia or the Greek mainland, along the same pathways that many Egyptian art objects and cultural goods found their way to Greece during the Archaic period. Similarly, one could say of possible Aegean traces in Greek architecture that they too might have had their origins in the works of Ancient Egypt. A further significant possible Egyptian influence on Greek architecture not addressed in this paper is the introduction of the peristyle to the Greek temple. While evidence above has demonstrated that the many architectural elements of the colossal Archaic Ionic temple, including the innovative dipteral peristyle, likely emerged as a result of an Egyptian influence, the idea of the Greek temple peristyle, itself, may have similarly made way to Greece along a similar path. To address these issues sufficiently, however, would be to exceed the scope of this paper, yet may also likely be the next course of action demanded by this research topic.

Appendix

Origin and Function of the Egyptian Labyrinth

Classical authors are less certain of the origin or purpose of the Egyptian Labyrinth than they are of its influence on Greek architecture. Located at Hawara, the royal necropolis in the southeastern Fayum region, the Labyrinth is now known to be the site of the mortuary temple of the pyramid complex of the 12th Dynasty Pharaoh Amenemhet III (1855-1808 BCE). Herodotus claims that the Labyrinth was supposedly built as a common memorial for the reigns of twelve regional monarchs to strengthen the bond between them. Diodorus gives us several different accounts of the Labyrinth's origin and purpose, beginning with King Mendes, "whom some call Marrus. This king performed no martial deeds whatever, but he did build himself a palace of burial known as the Labyrinth." He later describes the Labyrinth as a tomb to the twelve kings mentioned in Herodotus' account. Diodorus then tells the story of how King Menas crossed Lake Moeris with the aid of a crocodile. As a gesture of thanks and homage to the crocodile god Sobek, he founded the city named after the crocodiles and instructed the inhabitants to worship the crocodiles as gods. He also built his tomb here, "raising a four sided pyramid nearby, and he constructed the Labyrinth, which many admire."

Despite the many accounts of the origin of the Egyptian Labyrinth, most Classical authors recognize a religious function to this structure. Diodorus' account of the Labyrinth in the context of the story of King Menas' pyramid tomb and the institution of a crocodile cult agrees with the modern assertion that the Labyrinth originally functioned in part as a mortuary installation for the king's pyramid and in part to serve the cults of various gods, likely those of Fayum area, "whose worship was carried on in association with that of the dead king." A more pronounced mixture of Pharaonic mortuary cult with local religion is found in Herodotus' observation of the Labyrinth's present function: "I was taken through the rooms in the upper storey, so what I shall say of them is from my own observation, but the underground ones I can speak of only from report, because the Egyptians in charge refused to let me see them, as they contain the tombs of the kings who built the labyrinth, and also the tombs of the sacred crocodiles."

From: http://www.artic.edu/~llivin/research/ionic_architecture/paper.html

So much for your classical scholars and the "western" tradition.

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Doug M
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There is an exhibit that is on tour around the world showing how ancient Greek sculpture and art was originally painted:

http://thephoenix.com/Boston/Arts/52391-Whitewash/

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http://gregcookland.com/journal/2007_12_09_archive.html

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From: http://thephoenix.com/COMMUNITY/photos/arts/picture40815.aspx

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Temple of Aphaia on Aegina Island:
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Beni Hasan tomb:

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From: http://www.flickr.com/photos/norashalaby/2428030849/

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Doug, I hjave heard some really stupid comments in a lifetime of teaching but some of you guys win the prize. You guys nit pick and scratch around here there and everywhere to try to find some thread with which you can prop up these absurd views you hold. Just study classical greece, that is all you have to do. Study without the object of in mind of looking for pieces of straw to support an already established view you have.
There is no substitute for an education Doug. It is never too late.
When you buy into this political afrocentric garbage you guys promote you are simply wasting your life as nothing can ever come of it.
Thousands of teachers every day day are teaching students that Greece is the foundation of western civilization. Today, thousands of teachers are teaching students that the genius of greece was home grown.
That Doug and Djehuti think otherwise is of no account.

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ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
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Could it be there are 2 truths in this world?

Could it be that AmericanP's truth is on the tail end of the coin?

The Illogical vs. The Logical?

Could there be a "stupid truth" ordained for humanity?

Yin and Yang?

Just my 2 cents.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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I think there is always only one truth though you may have many perceptions. We live in an age of radical politics. Thirty years ago these radical fringe ideas did not have the internet to peddle their stupidity.
Most of the problems here stem from the lack of knowledge in how to process historical data.
Most of these guys do not think like historians. They START with a conclusion and then try to build a case around it, no historian would ever do that.

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ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
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^ I think you're projecting.
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meninarmer
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LOL, this dude is even in denial on the top down creation of racial inferiority.
Continuing anything other then laughs with this dunce is a complete waste of time.
I have yet to see one credible source he's referenced and I'd bet 10:1 odds you never will because they are all on Stormfront.

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Serpent Wizdom
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"If art did not originate in Greece and people have been sculpting figures for cosmological and political purposes since thousands of years before the Greeks, then how can art in Greece be HOME GROWN?"

europeans have a strange habit of making such claims. just look at the lie that is taught in the american public fool system that says columbus "discovered" america? and they had the nerve to create a national holiday with his name attached to it to honor this unholy lie.

how can you discover a continent already inhabited by millions of people?

then again, how did elvis presley create rock n roll when chuck berry and others were doing this form of music before him?.... etc. etc...

culture banditry must run in the eruopeans blood...

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Occupation: TRUTH!!

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TheAmericanPatriot
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No historian teaches that Columbus "discovered america" in the sense that he was the first European to come here. The importance of Columbus is that that it was his voyages that kicked off the conquest of the western hemisphere by Europeans. That conquest was one of the most important events in the history of the human race that had a massive impact on the world to this day. For that reason the voyages of Columbus were very important events.
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Serpent Wizdom
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
No historian teaches that Columbus "discovered america" in the sense that he was the first European to come here. The importance of Columbus is that that it was his voyages that kicked off the conquest of the western hemisphere by Europeans. That conquest was one of the most important events in the history of the human race that had a massive impact on the world to this day. For that reason the voyages of Columbus were very important events.

despite what white folks claim they intended for people to learn saying that columbus discovered america, the fact is that all children educated in the american system believe that he actually was the first person to see and set foot on this land.

but of course it was to celebrate this monters successfull murderous reign here.

with his filthy, diseased self.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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wizdom, I have never taught that Columbus was the first to set foot here nor do I know anyone who has. Your last to lines sounded bizare.
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Serpent Wizdom
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i am speaking from personal experience and observation dear. and you know that it was not only the barbacity of the europeans that killed off the native populations it was also their germs and diseases that they brought to the "new world" from europe which they were able to survive from but were still infected with.

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Occupation: TRUTH!!

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quote:
Originally posted by akoben:

You jackass you denied a stolen legacy and claimed Greek classical philosophy was "home grown". Having been beaten down on both counts you have yet to reply, "I doubt you've studied James. Until you start citing him in your refutations I'm not bothering to respond after this post."

and we all know you will never reply; like patriot you can only curse but nothing more.

The only jackass is YOU, as you apparenlty haven't paid much attention to this thread which explicitly shows that there was NO STOLEN LEGACY, since the Greeks showed influence from other cultures! Dumbass!
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Djehuti
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After Doug cited actual mainstream scholarly sources on Classical Greek art and culture being the result of foreign influence.
quote:
TheAmericanPatriot wrote:

Doug, I have heard some really stupid comments in a lifetime of teaching but some of you guys win the prize. You guys nit pick and scratch around here there and everywhere to try to find some thread with which you can prop up these absurd views you hold. Just study classical greece, that is all you have to do. Study without the object of in mind of looking for pieces of straw to support an already established view you have.
There is no substitute for an education Doug. It is never too late.
When you buy into this political afrocentric garbage you guys promote you are simply wasting your life as nothing can ever come of it.
Thousands of teachers every day day are teaching students that Greece is the foundation of western civilization. Today, thousands of teachers are teaching students that the genius of greece was home grown. That Doug and Djehuti think otherwise is of no account.

So I take it professor, that all those sources Doug cited come from 'Afrocentrics' and not Classicist scholars?! LOL

Keep in mind that this thread is about Greek philosophy! If you want info about all Greek culture as a whole come here.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Doug, I hjave heard some really stupid comments in a lifetime of teaching but some of you guys win the prize. You guys nit pick and scratch around here there and everywhere to try to find some thread with which you can prop up these absurd views you hold. Just study classical greece, that is all you have to do. Study without the object of in mind of looking for pieces of straw to support an already established view you have.
There is no substitute for an education Doug. It is never too late.
When you buy into this political afrocentric garbage you guys promote you are simply wasting your life as nothing can ever come of it.
Thousands of teachers every day day are teaching students that Greece is the foundation of western civilization. Today, thousands of teachers are teaching students that the genius of greece was home grown.
That Doug and Djehuti think otherwise is of no account.

What does "Western Civilization" have to do with ancient Greece? "Western Civilization" did not exist 2,500 years ago. So how is that relevant to the origins and development of Greek culture and civilizations and the role of Eastern and African civilizations in its development? Ancient Greece is not "Western Civilization" they are not the same and anyone who makes the claim that they are is a liar.

But that is to complex for you to understand, which is why when I provide FACTS on the influence on the development of ancient Greek art, architecture and thought, you talk about "Western Civilization". That has NOTHING to do with the sources cited and the fact that "classical scholars" openly admit that there were MANY influences from the east on ancient Greek culture. As usual you FLUNK again for trying to equate "Western Civilization" with ancient Greece, when NO classical scholar considers the two as being one and the same.

Now, lets dissect some of the ACTUAL teachings about "Western Civilization" and how it is REALLY a bunch of nonsense.

Europe for most of its history was NOT democratic. The idea that Western Civilization is based around "values" of peace, freedom and human rights is BULL SH*T. It is a farce designed to give European colonial empires and their offspring an aura of righteousness that they do not deserve. Like I said, most of Europe's history was made up rulers who believed they were GOD KINGS, including Alexander and his generals. Not to mention that SLAVERY was an important part of ALL European cultures, INCLUDING the Greeks.

But back to the point, there WAS NO "Western civilization" prior to 1492. Europe was a backwater and on the RECEIVING end of cultural transmissions from THE EAST. And THAT is the beginning of "Western Civilization" with Europe'e expansion around the world with the INTENT TO TAKE OVER the trade routes and economies of the CIVILIZED WORLD. It had nothing to do with peace, Columbus was not on a mission to civilize he was on a mission to take over Indian trade routes. With the discovery of America, Spain was on a mission to CONQUER the "new land" and SUBJUGATE and ENSLAVE IT. Tens if not hundreds of millions of people perished in the subsequent violent expansion of European interests around the globe as the DIRECT genocidal POLICIES of the ruling monarchs, ALL of whom considered themselves GOD KINGS and able to do whatever they wanted as being such. Human rights and freedoms were NOT a primary concern here.

Concerning philosophy, lets look at some of the struggles and battles that took place in Europe and the influence of Greek thought. The principle idea that is said to have been so important in Europe is the development of natural law, which is said to have come from the Greek philosophy of the Stoics. But what is natural law other than the law of maat, which is the embodiment of "natural law" or the natural state of balance in the human temperament as symbolized by weighing the heart in the halls of Maat? Maat as symbolized by balance and the twofold truth is the basis of the logic of the Stoics (good vs bad, light vs dark, being vs non being, truth vs lie).

And the stoic ideal of a balanced ideal life with a heart was not troubled was the epitome of Maat and something espoused by all the WISDOM texts of ancient Egypt, which was something passed on by the scribes who called themselves "right of speech".

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alTakruri
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Either Diodorus penned this or he didn't. Name the Classicists denying that fact.
None do, and you quite well know it, ergo your gnashing of teeth and impotent
unsupported caterwaul.


quote:

But now that we have examined these matters we must enumerate what Greeks, who have won fame for their wisdom and learning, visited Egypt in ancient times in order to become acquainted with its customs and learning. For the priests of Egypt recount from the records of their sacred books that they were visited in early times by Orpheus, Musaeus, Melampus, and Daedalus, also by the poet Homer and Lycurgus of Sparta, later by Solon of Athens and the philosopher Plato, and that there came also Pythagoras of Samos and the mathematician Eudoxus, as well as Democritus of Abdera and Oenopides of Chios. As evidence for the visits of all these men they point in some cases to their statues and in others to places or buildings which bear their names, and they offer proofs from the branch of learning which each one of these men pursued, arguing that all the things for which they were admired among the Greeks were borrowed from Egypt.

Orpheus, for instance, brought from Egypt most of his mystic ceremonies, the orgiastic rites that accompanied his wanderings, and his fabulous account of his experiences in Hades. For the rite of Osiris is the same as that of Dionysus, and that of Isis very similar to that of Demeter, the names alone having been interchanged; and the punishments in Hades of the unrighteous, the Fields of the Righteous, and the fantastic conceptions, current among the many, which are figments of the imagination — all these were introduced by Orpheus in imitation of Egyptian funeral customs.

And as proof of the presence of Homer they adduce various pieces of evidence , and especially the healing drink which brings forgetfulness of all past evils, which was given by Helen to Telemachus in the home of Menelaus [in Book Four of the Odyssey] ... for, they allege, even to this day the women of this city [Thebes in Egypt] use this powerful remedy.

Lycurgus also and Plato and Solon, they say, incorporated many Egyptian customs into their own legislation. And Pythagoras learned from Egyptians his teachings about the gods, his geometrical propositions and theory of numbers, as well as the transmigration of souls into every living thing.



Diodorus Siculus

Library of History, Book I, 96-98



But sorry, didn't know my Diodorus ciation blunted your teeth so painfully.
I do hope your crippling disease of not accepting education from the ancients
themselves never infects any young inquiring mind skillful enough to crack open a
book and verify the accuracy of proferred quotes (something beyond your pinioned ability).

quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
well, every classical scholar who has ever lived agrees with my unlearned opinion. You guys make up a list of rascist mumbo jumbo and pass it off as history. the sad part is there might be a young guy or two who is infected with this nonsense and ends up educationally crippled for years.


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