posted
DICTIONARY OF GREEK AND ROMAN GEOGRAPHY 1854 William Smith, L.L.D.
MAURETA´NIA MAURETA´NIA the NW. coast of Africa, now known as the Empire of Marocco, Fez, and part of Algeria, or the Mogh'rib-al-akza (furthest west) of the natives. I. Name, Limits, and Inhabitants.
This district, which was separated on the E. from Numidia, by the river Ampsaga, and on the S. from Gaetulia, by the snowy range of the Atlas, was washed upon the N. coast by the Mediterranean, and on the W. by the Atlantic. From the earliest times it was occupied by a people whom the ancients distinguished by the name MAURUSII (Μαυρούσιο, Strab. i. p.5, iii. pp. 131, 137, xvii. pp. 825, 827; Liv. 24.49; Verg. A. 4.206; Μαυρήνσιοι, Ptol. 4.1.11) or MAURI (Μαυροί, “Blacks,” in the Alexandrian dialect, Paus. i, 33 § 5, 8.43. [2.297] § 3; Sal. Jug. 19; Pomp. Mela, 1.4.3; Liv. 21.22, 28.17; Hor. Carm. 1.22. 2, 2.6. 3, 3.10. 18; Tac. Ann. 2.52, 4.523, 14.28, Hist. 1.78, 2.58, 4.50; Lucan 4.678; Juv. 5.53, 6.337; Flor. 3.1, 4.2); hence the name MAURETANIA (the proper form as it appears in inscriptions, Orelli, Inscr. 485, 3570, 3672; and on coins, Eckhel, vol. vi. p. 48; comp. Tzchucke, ad Pomp. Mela, 1.5.1) or MAURITANIA (Μαυριτανία, Ptol. 4.1.2; Caes. B.C. 1.6, 39; Hirt. B. Afr. 22; Pomp. Mela, 1.5; Plin. Nat. 5.1; Eutrop. 4.27, 8.5; Flor. iv. (the MSS. and printed editions vary between this form and that of Mauretania); ἡ Μαυρούσιων γῆ, Strab. p. 827). These Moors, who must not be considered as a different race from the Numidians, but as a tribe belonging to the same stock, were represented by Sallust (Sal. Jug. 21) as a remnant of the army of Hercules, and by Procopius (B. V. 2.10) as the posterity of the Cananaeans who fled from the robber (ληστής) Joshua; he quotes two columns with a Phoenician inscription. Procopius has been supposed to be the only, or at least the most ancient, author who mentions this inscription, and the invention of it has been attributed to himself; it occurs, however, in the history of Moses of Chorene (1.18), who wrote more than a century before Procopius. The same inscription is mentioned by Suidas (s. v. Χανάαν), who probably quotes from Procopius. According to most of the Arabian writers, who adopted a nearly similar tradition, the indigenous inhabitants of N. Africa were the people of Palestine, expelled by David, who passed into Africa under the guidance of Goliah, whom they call Djalout. (St. Martin, Le Beau, Bas Empire, vol. xi. p. 328; comp. Gibbon, c. xli.) These traditions, though so ...
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1874 - John Denison Baldwin - “We have seen, in another place, that the whole Asiatic region on the Mediterranean was anciently a part of Ethiopia or the Land of Cush and that Joppa (Iopia), one of the most ancient Phoenician cities, was the royal city of ‘Kepheus the Ethiopian.’ Among the notes to Hamilton and Falconer’s version of Strabo are the following: ‘We have before remarked that the Ethiopia visited by Menelaus was not the country above Egypt, but an Ethiopia lying aroung Jaffa, the ancient ‘Joppa’ Again: The name of Ethiopians, given by Ephorus to fugitive Canaanites, confirms what we have before stated, that the environs of Jaffa, and possibly the entire of Palestine, anciently bore the name of Ethiopia… The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries Concerning Some of the Great Peoples and…
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1867 - “The first tribes that inhabited Egypt that is, the Nile Valley between the Syene cataracts and the sea, came from Abyssinia to Sennar. The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras, present inhabitants of Nubia. In the Copts of Egypt we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt. It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race.” From letters published by Champollion-Figeac
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1809 - “The Egyptians, though healthy, large and robust were clumsy in their forms and course in their features. Like other African tribes they were woolly haired, flat-nosed and thick lipped, and if not absolutely black were very near it in color. From the Publication “ Specimens of Ancient Sculpture" Society of Dilettanti, Vol 1
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1881 “ A third body of the Cushites went to the north of the Egypt and founded, on the east of the Delta, the kingdom of the so-called Hyksos, whom tradition designated sometimes as Phoenicians sometimes as Arabians, and in both cases rightly…Lepsius has proved by excellent reasons the Cushite origins of the Hyksos statues from San (Tanis) now in the museum of Boulaq and has made more than merely probable the immigration of the Cushites into the region of the Delta…” p. 402 Heinrich Karl Brugsh in A History of Egypt Under the Pharaohs Derived Entirely from the Monuments, published by John Murray 1881, Vol 2, 2nd edition.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
1834 - eyewitness observer and Scotsman Thomas Campbell said the "Kabyles...dress like the Arabs and apart from a few tribes are brown complexioned and black haired" quoted from Barbary and Enlightenment: European Attitudes in the Maghreb in the 18th Century, by Ann Thomson, 1987, p. 109.
1890 – “The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Found in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I published 1890.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: The hyksos were Syrians, that is not disputed.
“The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. “ Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
You are full of $.... Dana. It is ashame that a literate educcated person has to get involved with radical ideology and literally waste their lives.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: You are full of $.... Dana. It is ashame that a literate educcated person has to get involved with radical ideology and literally waste their lives.
ummm... if you say so. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1901 - Guiseppe Sergi “Those who with Petrie and Sayce rely on testimony of the homophonies from Old Testamant, or from anthropological types revealed by Egyptian monuments consider them to be Hamites originating in South Arabia, where also they would seek the origin of the Egyptians …It is true that Egyptians have represented them a of a brick-red color like themselves, and like the Punites…” The Mediterranean Race: A Study of the Origin of European Peoples, pp. 154 -155
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: The hyksos were Syrians, that is not disputed.
Yes we "Ethiopians" once lived in Syria too my friend, in fact that name came from us.
Glad to have you back!
From Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Chapter 15 about the origin of the Trogodytes of Africa and Arabia comes this -
"The sons of Madiau were Ephas, and Ophren, and Anoch, and Ebidas, and Eldas. Now, for all these sons and grandsons, Abraham contrived to settle them in colonies; and they took possession of Troglodytis, and the country of Arabia the Happy, as far as it reaches to the Red Sea. It is related of this Ophren, that he made war against Libya, and took it, and that his grandchildren, when they inhabited it, called it (from his name) Africa. And indeed Alexander Polyhistor gives his attestation to what I here say; who speaks thus: 'Cleodemus the prophet, who was also called Malchus, who wrote a History of the Jews, in agreement with the History of Moses, their legislator, relates, that there were many sons born to Abraham by Keturah: nay, he names three of them, Apher, and Surim, and Japhran. That from Surim was the land of Assyria denominated; and that from the other two (Apher and Japbran) the country of Africa took its name, because these men were auxiliaries to Hercules, when he fought against Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married Aphra's daughter, and of her he begat a son, Diodorus; and that Sophon was his son, from whom that barbarous people called Sophacians were denominated."
Now if you area a U.S. Civil War historian and want to know who the Apher and Surim spoken of by Josephus and Cleodemus and others were, all you have to do is read a little up on the history tribes of the Roman provinces of ancient North Africa where you will find them as the historical people referred to as Pharusii or Ifuraces and as Ausuriani, Astacures, Turini, Astrikes and Saturiani ancestors of the modern Wasuri, Ifren or Iforas - clans of the Tuareg now living in Mali and other parts of the Sahel.
“But it is said how this Afren made an expedition upon Libya and took hold of it; and his grandsons having housed in it and called the land Africa after his name. And Alexander Polyhistor testifies to my word, saying thus: But Cleodemus the prophet, who is also Malchas, while recounting the history concerning the Jews, just as Moses their lawmaker has narrated it, says that Abraham bore plenty of sons from Chettura; and he also says what their names were, naming three of them: Afer, Assur, Afran, and that Assyria was called such after Assur, and that a city Afra and the country of Africa were named from the other two, Afra and Afer; and that these men joined Hercules in his expedition upon Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married the daughter of Afra and begat a son from her, Diodorus, and that Sophonas was born from him from whom the barbarian Sophae are called.” Eusebius Preparation 9:20
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you want to get laughed out of a history seminar present evidence like that Dana.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
On why the Tuareg (Imakitan or Ketama) claim descent from Amalek(Meluhha) and other Phoenicians.
Josephus calls the Amalekites "Phoenician shepherds.
1839 - “Cathim, the son of Madan an Amalekite, was famous throughout the world for the magnificent buildings erected by him. Some ascribe the pyramids to this king; he was the last Amalekite king of Egypt….” Synchronology, a Treatise on the History and Mythology of the by Charles Crosthwaite p. 234 published 1839
From Josephus, “Cethimus possessed the island Cethima: it is now called Cyprus; and from that it is that all islands, and the greatest part of the sea-coasts, are named Cethim by the Hebrews: and one city there is in Cyprus that has been able to preserve its denomination; it has been called Citius by those who use the language of the Greeks, and has not, by the use of that dialect, escaped the name of Cethim.” Josephus
1868 - “Our king according to the Arabs was Cathim who the successor of Darem, who was drowned in the Nile. He was a famous builder and preceeded the brothers of Kabus and Walid who reigned in the time of Moses…” p. 373 HHYXB Pharaoh’s Daughter: an Gancropologikal Drama by Edward Clibborn
1747 - “Cathim an Amalekite who was a magnificent prince and rendered himself famous by a variety of noble buildings, with which he adorned this country. Others alledge that this Riyan left no son, but a grandson, whose name was Kabus, who succeeded him and is said to have reigned in the time of Moses…” A universal History from the Earliest Account of Time Volume II by George Sale et al. p. 117 published in 1747.
Lest we forget, Zeno the philosopher a remnant of these "Phoenicians" in Citium is said to be “gaunt, very tall and black” with a twisted neck and called “Egyptian vine shoot” because of it.
The remnants of these people in Africa were the equally tall and black Ketama,(Uakutameni, Micateni now called Imaketan, name for the eastern branches of thetall and near black Tuareg, who still claim descent from the Phoenicians.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: If you want to get laughed out of a history seminar present evidence like that Dana.
Evidence of what - that early authors believed certain Africans to have once lived in Syria and Arabia.
That's all thats being proposed here, but someone of your logic who knows nothing but how to project their shortcomings onto others would never be able to understand that. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
More folkhistory of the original Berbers (Tuareg, Shluh, etc.)who claim to be the Phoenicians, Philistines, Amalekites or Anakim of Canaan
“It seemed to me we had come into presence of a race of giants. I myself am no dwarf, topping six feet , but these men seemed to make me look small. Some were nearly 7 feet high…” From In Quest of Lost Worlds: Five Archeological Expeditions 1925-1934 on the Tuareg of Amen Okhal. P. 41 Count Byron Khun de Prorok
1835 “The Shellooh, it must be observed are a clans people and great genealogists. They call themselves, the descendants of Mazigh, son of Canaan, and consider their northern neighbours, the Brebber of Fez, as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim, son of Mizraim. Ibn Khaldun says of the Berbers in general that they are descended from Ham, like the ancient Egyptians. “ p. 263 Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge.
Contining... “The name of Philistines is sometimes applied to the Berbers themselves by the Shellooh, who consider them as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim son of Mitzraim and as having immigrated into the country in the time of Goliath, long after themselves. “ p. 264 from Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful ..., Volumes 3-4 By Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge
1835 - p. 262 of The Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge Volume 4 says, “Tradition among themselves, as well as the accounts of the Arabian writers who have written concerning them, seem to point to the land of Canaan as the country they came from. Ahmed el Fasi, in his Ketab el Giammar, says that the Berbers are a colony of Philistines who took refuge in Africa after David had killed Gialout or Goliath (Herbelot, art. Gialout). Others say that they are the descendants of the Canaanites and Amalekites driven from Palestine by Joshua. “
Ibn Khaldun, mentioned above an Andalusian Muslim born in Tunis, North Africa in the 14th century speaking on Berber origins while propogating the Western myth about how Ham became black wrote wrote: “Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame.... Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib." - “Ibn Khaldun, [I]Histoire I, 177–178.
"Casluhim, from whence came the Philistines" Genesis 10:14 and 1Chronicles 1:2 of the Hebrew Bible.
1914 - James Orr, “ The Amalekites migrated into Egypt and southern Pal. The Pharoahs of the time of Abraham, Joseph and Moses are represented to have been Amalekites. Finally, broken up by Josh, they fled into northern Africa, where they are said to have grown into the Berber races...” The International Standard Bible Enclopaedia.
Orr adds elsewhere, “Of the extinct tribes the most familiar name is that of Amlak or Amlik (Amalek). By the Arabian genealogists he is variously described as a grandson of Shem and as a son of Ham. In Gen 36 12 he is a son of Esau’s son, Eliphaz, by Timna…In the time of Abraham they were expelled from Mecca on the arrival of two new tribes from the S., those of Jurhum and Katura (Gen 25 1). …According to another tradition Moses sent an expedition against the Amalekites in the Hijaz on which occasion the Israelites, disobeying his orders, spared their king Arkam (cf Rekem, Nu 31 8; Josh 13 21) – a reminiscence of the incident in the life of Saul (1 S 15). "
“Popular Jewish tradition saw in the Berber tribes descendants of the Philistines, who had to flee to North Africa because of the annihilating defeats inflicted on them by king David and his commander and chief Joab.” Maimonides: A Biography – p. 13 by Joachim Neugroschell Macmillan 1982.
“Certain African histories describe Goliath, a Philistine, as ‘Goliath the Berber’ because many of these tribes claim descent from Jalut (the Goliath of the Bible)Tribe and Society in Rural Morocco.” David M. Hart, 2000.
“The voyager Ibn Idrisi mentioned that they came from Palestine and were descended from Qays the grandson of Mudar. This Ber was the ancestor of Goliath ibn Daris ibn Jana ibn Lowwa ibn Ber. “
1912 - “To what stock the Berber are ultimately attributable is uncertain and need not detain us here. Suffice it to say that ancient traditions generally held that the Berber were a Hamitic race from Syria and connected with the Philistines, and it was held by a majority of writers that certain of the Berber tribes were once Yemenite settlers round Marib.” The Tribes of Northern and Central Kordofan, by H.A. MacMichael Cambridge 1912
“There were none of the Anakim left in the land of the children of Israel. Only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod, did some remain.” Biblical book of Joshua 11:22
The name for Tuareg or modern Berber chiefs Galidi, Aguellid, Okal and the name of Gildo of anicient Mauretania was not improbably related etymologically to the name Goliath or Jalut.
The names of the Mazurah or Imazuragh (Misrah) Tuareg, Ihaggaren (Hagar), and many other clan names are those from which are derived the names of the Canaanites/Midianites (or children of Hagar/Keturah), etc. of the Bible. However, as Kamal Salibi rightly adduced in, The Bible Came from Arabia, the Canaan refered to is the area between Yemen and Mecca and not the later Palestine. So when the Tuareg or darker-skinned Berbers say they are descendants of Sabaeans and at the same time Amalekites, Phoenicians or Philistines "a remnant of the Anakim" they speak of the cities or towns of the Philistines still found in that area and not in the modern Syria/Palestine where they also settled after a time but where most of these Biblical towns have never existed.
10th century - “the first people to inhabit North Africa were five colonies of Sabaeans under Ibn Ifriki, King of Yaman which gave birth to 600 tribes of Berbers” Ibn Rakik cited in MacMichael Vol I A History of the Arabs of Sudan.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1877 - "Rappelons enfins que les isles de Samothrace, Lemnos and Lesbos se seraient appelees plus anciennement Ethiopie", Louis Benloew in La Grece Avant Les Grecs: Etudes Linguistique et Ethnographique: Pelasges, Leleges, Semites & Ioniens, pp. 137-138
On Lydia and Euboea "Ces endroits portait le nom de (Aitopia) ou (Aitiopia)." p. 136.
The author names other ancient localities of the Aegean and Mediterranean that were at one time called Ethiopia, including Boetia and Cilicia.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1859 - Moor, subst. (blackamoor), Aethiops;female m., Aethiopissa; tawny m. Maurus... A Latin-English and English Latin Dictionary: For the Use of Schools by Charles Anthon et al. p. 1151
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
1883 - A.Sayce - Speaking of certain remains of Cappodocia which he interprets (wrongly) to be Hittite says, "They must be the White Syrians of Strabo whom the Greek geographer contrasts with the black Syrians of semitic Aram" from Ancient Empires of the East Herodotus I-III. p. 42
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Historians do not agree with you Dana.
I am not making these statements so they don't have to agree with me. I am quoting Europeans that were interested in history and not wishful thinking.
I am not the one to be agreed with. I am sorry that you are not interested in this history coming out, and that your pride is being hurt.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
You have to be a highly trained specialist to deal with Herodotus. read what modern classical scholars say about him, you'll come away with a different view.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Historians do not agree with you Dana.
I am not making these statements so they don't have to agree with me. I am quoting Europeans that were interested in history and not wishful thinking.
I am not the one to be agreed with. I am sorry that you are not interested in this history coming out, and that your pride is being hurt.
"According to Simonet and his study of the language spoken by the Mozarabes (Christian Spaniards under Muslim rule before 1492) mauro meant negro and corresponded to its Castillian usage in which moro was applied to horses whose color was negro ... An Irish Gaelic saga of the 900s (copied in 1643) states that Danish Irish raiders attacked Spain and Mauritania in the 800s. 'From the latter place they carried off a great host of them to Erin and these are the blue men of Erin for Mauri is the same as black man and Mauritania is the same a blackness...Long indeed were these blue men in Erin'. The Gaelic text uses Mauri and Negri and mauritania and nigritudo, obviously borrowed from Latin..." from the book, Africans and Native Americans: The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black peoples, Jack D. Forbes, 1993 pp. 67-68.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: You have to be a highly trained specialist to deal with Herodotus. read what modern classical scholars say about him, you'll come away with a different view.
I've not referenced Herodotus here, or for that matter anywhere on this blog as far as I can remember. And he is of course just one of dozens of ancient writers one can reference and that have been cited by hundreds of 19th century Europeans specialists in history.
I know all ancient Greeks might have looked alike to you, but Strabo isn't Herodotus and I certainly didn't quote from either of them.
I also know Herodotus is the only ancient historian you think "radical Afrocentrics" know about, unfortunately I'm not an Afrocentric - maybe radical - but not Afrocentric.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Again dana, you are giving the typical old afrocentric view points that we hear all the time. Classical scholars overwhelmingly reject them. If you listen to quacks like old Dr Ben you can easily buy into all this nonsense.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Again dana, you are giving the typical old afrocentric view points that we hear all the time. Classical scholars overwhelmingly reject them. If you listen to quacks like old Dr Ben you can easily buy into all this nonsense.
Whats the matter you don't like all of the classical scholars I've quoted here? Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
"The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white." quoted from St. Isidore of Seville, Book XIX.xxiii.7 found in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, translation Stephen A Barney, Cambridge University Press, 2006
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
what did they mean by black Dana? Medieval people also called arabs black/dark skinned. You are getting into deep and complicated history and wanting to take this stuff at face value. For example, we know for a fact that most Moors were not negroid at all. The term Moor is a term that evolved to fit almost everyone who was not a jew or a blue eyed Spainiard.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: what did they mean by black Dana? Medieval people also called arabs black/dark skinned. You are getting into deep and complicated history and wanting to take this stuff at face value. For example, we know for a fact that most Moors were not negroid at all. The term Moor is a term that evolved to fit almost everyone who was not a jew or a blue eyed Spainiard.
Is this your in your ignorant opinion. You must not be very familiar with how Arabs looked or look for that matter.
Apparently people in El Salvador and other Spanish-speaking places in South America and Greece and Italy and northern Europe never got the news that Moro, Mauri or Moor "evolved to fit almost everyone who was not a jew or a blue eyed Spaniard."
Stormfront and the Mathilda sites are not the place for someone touting themselves as a historian to be.
Trollin... Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: what did they mean by black Dana? Medieval people also called arabs black/dark skinned. You are getting into deep and complicated history and wanting to take this stuff at face value. For example, we know for a fact that most Moors were not negroid at all. The term Moor is a term that evolved to fit almost everyone who was not a jew or a blue eyed Spainiard.
Furthermore - I guess the Gauls weren't white either.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Never been to those places but I can assure you that they could not be more racist than most of the blacks on this site. Modern black people are the most racist people in the world and they have a huge chip on their shoulder as well.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
“The Moors of the host wore silks and colourful clothes which they had taken as booty… their horses’ reins were like fire, their faces as black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot and their eyes blazed like fire; their horses as swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel than the wolf that comes to a sheepfold in the night…Oh luckless Spain!” description of the Moors written in the 1200s A.D. cited in Colin Smith’s, Christians and Moors in Spain vol. 1 2nd edition 1988, p. 97.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
and? so you think that proves they were negroids? We know that is not the case Dana.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here is some more "deep, complicated" history from a 13th century observer:
Circa 1200s A.D. -“The Moors of the host wore silks and colourful clothes which they had taken as booty… their horses’ reigns were like fire, their faces as black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot and their eyes blazed like fire; their horses as swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel than the wolf that comes to a sheepfold in the night…Oh luckless Spain!” cited in Colin Smith’s, Christians and Moors in Spain vol. 1 2nd edition 1988, p. 97.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: and? so you think that proves they were negroids? We know that is not the case Dana.
What is this with you people and "Negroids" - Hammer? My God - What did your parents tell you about Negroids growing up down there in Texas? I shudder to think my ancestors had to go through h_ _ _ or should I acknowledge be thrown into wells and the electric chair by people related to yours for nothing. Even when most of them didn't look "Negroid".
First of all I never said a thing about a "Negroid". Second of all when you have so many people of originally non-Arab origin like fair-skinned Iraqis, white Syrians, Turks, Iranians and other individuals describing real Arabs as a people with jet black to dark brown skin who originally held fair skin in utter contempt, I don't know why you would be so satisified just to hear someone like me say they were black "but not 'NEGROIDS'".
Nevertheless, I will not be able to satisfy your Negrophobic longing - there are plenty of early descriptions of pure Arabs mentioned by people already on this blog which talk about Arabs - whether huge or short and thin and small as having "flat noses", "red eyes" and loin cloths hanging halfway down their leg(hmmm -I wonder why). And this is what you and I and especially you here in the good old U.S. of America call the NEGRO . If you don't believe me or other "Afronuts" why don't you learn Arabic and stop feigning like you know what an Arab looked like when they left Arabia and entered Spain.
Better yet - maybe you better take a trip to Arabia to see the many indigenes there.
I am sorry that it hurts so much for people like you and your kind to learn that people you consider so simian in affiliation and worthy of nothing but cotton-picking should have once been so powerful in this world. But history in truth can not be changed.
"Negroids" are not all that bad Hammer or shall I call you "Hypocrite". Negrophobes are though! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dana, I am not going to argue anymore nonsense with you. You have the ability to read and understand history but YOU have to decide to do it.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, I am not going to argue anymore nonsense with you. You have the ability to read and understand history but YOU have to decide to do it.
Thanks again Hammer but someone with no sense shouldn't be giving advice about nonsense. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Woohf ! Now as I was saying before the Lord of the Negrophobics added his no sense.
776A.D. - “…all the peoples settled in the Harra besides the Banu Sulaym are black. These tribes take slaves from among the Eshban to mind their flocks and for irrigation work, manual labor, and domestic service, and their wives from among the Byzantines...” Al Jahiz of Iraq born 776 A.D. on the tribes of the region of Northwestern Arabia found in Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh
Most people neglect the part where it says all of the tribes of the Harrah (in northwest Saudi Arabia). This actually refers mostly to numerous clans of the Sulaym and Hawazin bin Mansur or Qays Ailan. The reason they are pointed out as being black is because they were extremely black and not just dark brown like many of the Hejaz or most modern inhabitants of northern Sudan. Jahiz points out elsewhere that they are black like the lava of the Harrah.
It is also an error mistake to refer to Jahiz as a Zanj writer as he supposedly only had a Zanj grandfather or greatgrandfather which probably wasn't uncommon in his time among Iraqis.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Never been to those places but I can assure you that they could not be more racist than most of the blacks on this site. Modern black people are the most racist people in the world and they have a huge chip on their shoulder as well.
Oh - I'd have to agree with the chip on the shoulder part, but I don't see many "bigots" on this site although- yes there are a lot in America, who unfortunately can hardly afford to be anything else - especially those living down where you are.
But I really can't believe that you had the audacity to bring up the word racist. Trollin' and projecting must be two peas in the same pod.
Lord Hammer - are you there?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, I am not going to argue anymore nonsense with you.
As if this was an "argument". You were in fact being schooled as usual red neck.
Hi Bogle - I want to say I really don't think we should scare people like Hammer away. They are the really scary ones. I personally am wondering if he is for real and what kind of psyche or psychosis we are dealing with here among his kind in America. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dana, the civil rights issue made a trun in the late sixties. After all the legislation passed under LBJ and Nixon the debate switched from rights to outcomes. Most white American had changed their views by 1965 and supported the "rights" legislation. After 1968 the issue bacame "outcomes" and on this issue even moderate americans who had supported the rights legislation were much less suportive of outcomes. There is very little overt racism left in the mainstream white community. Most seldom think about black people at all one way or the other.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh well I guess our Civil War hypocritian has gone with the wind.
Some 19th Century Physical Descriptions of the Rebia tribes of the Qays ibn Ailan and of the tribes of the Tayyi and Azd.
1881 - G. Rawlinson wrote, “The Cha’ab Arabs, the present possessors of the more southern parts of Babylonia are nearly black and the ‘black Syrians’ of whom Strabo speaks seem to represent the Babylonians.” From The Five Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World: Or, The History, Geography, and Antiquites of Chaldœa, Assyria, Babylon, Media, and Persia, Vol. II
Elsewhere, Rawlinson refers to the Ka’b or Cha'b of the Banu Amir and their sub-tribe of Montefik (or the al-Muntafiq bin Uqayl bin Ka’b bin Rabi'a) as having the complexion of “Abyssinians” and “Galla” Ethiopians. from Vol. 1 of The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient World: Or, The History, Geography, and Antiquities of Chaldea, Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia, Parthia and Sassanian aor new Persian Empire. , Vol. 1 (07) p.35.
The Ka'b bin Rabi'a (part of the Banu Amir bin Sa’Sa’ah of the Hawazin) were domiciled in Iran (Khuzestan) in the 19th century. The Iranians called the Ka’ab (Ka'b or Cha’ab), “Tsiab”. While it has also been written Chub or Qub. The Kilab and Montefiq bin Uqayl also belong the Ka'b and are closely related to the Khafaja and Afik and Numayr ibn Kassit. The Ka'b have another clan among them called Khazraj.
In 1885, the British Surgeon General Edward Balfour put out the Encyclopedia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia, which in copying Rawlinson speaks of the Ka'b as a “tall, martial race, strong limbed and muscular” well known for their pirate exploits in the Persian Gulf. They still occupy in this time “the lower part of Mesopotamia”.
1894 – Another adventurer describes the Arab inhabitants of Khuzestan, “The faces and limbs of these Arabs were almost black from constant exposure to the sun. They were nearly naked and their hair was plaited in long tresses shining with grease…” p. 85 of Henry Layard’s, Early Adventures in Persia, Susiana and Babylonia, published 2003 - first publishing 1894. The Muntafiqbin Uqayl “a subdivision of the Khaza’il” were called “the most powerful tribe in southern Babylonia” see in E.J. Brills First Encyclopaedia of Islam 1913 – 1936 ) by M. Th. Houtsma. The Khafaja, a branch of the Muntafik commanded the road from Basra to Kufa in Mesopotamia (Iraq) as late as the the 19th century.
The Khaza’il inhabitants of the town of Lamlun are also described both as "resembling" the Bishariin who live in Nubia and Sudan and as “Melanian” by Lenormant. (See also Richard Francis Burton The Book of the Sword republication in 2006, fn. on p. 143.
1878 - According to Francois Lenormant in, La Magie Chez les Chaldaens, “Part of the marshy region around the Persian Gulf was inhabited by people who were nearly black. A remnant of these are yet extant in the Lamlun whom the French traveler, Texier has described and who are allied …to the Bisharis…” p. 518-519.
(Some genealogists consider the Khaza'il and Banu Lam tribes of Tayyi origin who came much earlier than the Qays into the region from Yemen.)
The other tribes of markedly black Arabs still stretching from the Nejd or Central Arabia to the Persian Gulf were the Dawasir whose ancestors are the Azd and whose descendants were the Taghlib bin Wa'il the brethren of Bakr bin Wail tribes (Banu Shayban, Hanifah, Numayr ibn Qassit).
1844 -- Charles Forster - “The marked distinctiveness of the Dowaser Arabs” says “this striking difference in height and color from the surrounding tribes is not confined to the Dowaser. The phenomenon reappears among the Arabs of the Persian Gulf …"
1829 - “The Dowaser are said to be very tall men, and almost black. In former times they used to sell at Mekka ostrich feathers to the northern pilgrims, and many pedlars of Mekka came here in winter to exchange cotton stuffs for those feathers.” See John Lewis Burkhardt, Travels in Arabia. Vol. 1.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Dana, the civil rights issue made a trun in the late sixties. After all the legislation passed under LBJ and Nixon the debate switched from rights to outcomes. Most white American had changed their views by 1965 and supported the "rights" legislation. After 1968 the issue bacame "outcomes" and on this issue even moderate americans who had supported the rights legislation were much less suportive of outcomes. There is very little overt racism left in the mainstream white community. Most seldom think about black people at all one way or the other.
Oh goodie - ur back - and for the first time I agree. Most of the prejudice is unconscious - like yours for example. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic