posted
Look! It must be a Christmas miracle! A group of peoples migrated over 2 millenia from the Arabian Peninsula, all the way to South/Central Africa?!
Of course we all know that this is a unique occurance and TOTALLY impossible when dealing with peoples of the Nile Valley, who either remained static, or migrated south, to the horn... but by NO MEANS migrated to South, Central or West Africa
quote: Report: DNA tests support Zimbabwe tribe's claim of Jewish roots
British scientists have succeeded in proving the Lemba tribe of Zimbabwe and South Africa descended from Jewish ancestors, according to a report by the BBC.
According to the report, the scientists conducted DNA tests on a large sample of the Lemba people, which confirmed Semitic origins dating back more than two millennia.
The BBC says that the 80,000 Lemba tribe members abstain from eating pork, wear yarmulke-like skull caps, conduct ritual animal slaughter, and even put a Star of David on their gravestones. Advertisement The report says the tribe has an oral tradition that links them to the ancient Jews. They also circumcise their male children, which is not a common practice in Zimbabwe, but is one of the basic principles of the Jewish faith.
Members of the priestly clan of the Lemba even have a genetic element also found among the Jewish priestly line - known as Cohen.
"This was amazing," Professor Tudor Parfitt from the University of London told the BBC. "It looks as if the Jewish priesthood continued in the West by people called Cohen, and in same way it was continued by the priestly clan of the Lemba," he added.
"They have a common ancestor who geneticists say lived about 3,000 years ago somewhere in north Arabia, which is the time of Moses and Aaron when the Jewish priesthood started," Parfitt told the BBC.
In addition, the report says, the Lemba have a sacred prayer language that combines Hebrew and Arabic, which indicates their roots were in Israel and Yemen.
"We have been a very secretive people, because we believe we are a special people," religious Lemba singer Fungisai Zvakavapano-Mashavave told the BBC.
The tribe even uses a religious artifact they say connects them to their Jewish ancestry - a replica of the Biblical Ark known as the ngoma lungundu, meaning "the drum that thunders," which they say was made by Moses.
The tribe's oral tradition says that centuries ago a small group of men began a long journey carrying the ngoma lungundu from Yemen to southern Africa.
The Ark went missing during the 1970s and was eventually rediscovered in Harare in 2007 by Professor Parfitt.
"Many people say that the story is far-fetched, but the oral traditions of the Lemba have been backed up by science," Parfitt said.
Despite their "Jewish roots," many of the tribe are now Christian or Muslim, the report claims. But, says Perez Hamandishe, a pastor and member of parliament, "Christianity is my religion, and Judaism is my culture."
I can't wait until actual DNA results of Dynastic Egyptian pharaoahs confirm the real and genetic link between many Central, South and West African peoples and Kemet.
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posted
Hey ako. Guess Altk has a leg up on you now.
Hey. . .we are all brothas. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Nothing personally directed at anyone... just noticed a lot of hostility when people suggest that West/South West/Central African groups state that they have a heritage in the Nile Valley. Perhaps, just perhaps, they are not crazy and are simply telling the truth...
This site, for all it's good points has a strange obsession with the Horn of Africa, at the expense of other African groupings who share culturo-linguistic traits with Ancient Kemet...
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quote:This site, for all it's good points has a strange obsession with the Horn of Africa, at the expense of other African groupings who share culturo-linguistic traits with Ancient Kemet...
There is no evidence that Egyptians mass migrated to the horn, i haven't seen anyone claim that at this board, which would be wrong.
However the basic indigenous stock/ethnicity of the horn is interwined with that of the upper nile (minus nilo-saharan) from northern kenya whole the way to upper egypt the people are made of the same basic stock (all of course adapted to their respective environments)but share strong commonalities in the sense of cultural, linguistic physical etc. relationship. It's not like upper Egyptians or northeastern sudanese migrated to the horn or vice versa but rather that this all region (NE Africa) was populated thousands and thousands years ago by people original of a small community probably located somehwere in the northeastern Sudan/Eritrea or central/northern Ethiopia expanding later at all directions south to northern kenya and up to Egypt with localized ethnicities emerging here and there. Also remember that Egyptians knew this very well, considering that they called the southern red sea coast "ancestral land", obviously 4-5000 years ago this region was ethnically even less diverse than today which made it more apparent how close related the people were. Today there has been to much input from other regions in particular middle east, despite this you can still see the strong relationship that exist between the people of this whole region.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
No one is denying the basic premise that North East African's share common cultural traits, but this is not at the exclusion of the wider African community, many of whom claim the Nile Valley/Sahara as an ancestral home.
quote:However the basic indigenous stock/ethnicity of the horn is interwined with that of the upper nile (minus nilo-saharan) from northern kenya whole the way to upper egypt the people are made of the same basic stock (all of course adapted to their respective environments)but share strong commonalities in the sense of cultural, linguistic physical etc. relationship.
Culturally, there is nothing exponentially more 'Kemetic' about East than Central or West African cultures. Matrilineal, matrifocal, religious affinities, dress codes, ceremonial objects... all of these aspects are reflected in several West and Central African communities, notably the Dogon, Yoruba, Edo...etc.
Linguistically, I pretty much reject the widely accepted Greenberg analysis of African languages, and reccommend any serious scholars do the same. Obenga, in my opinion was just as accomplished a linguist, however, he has much greater knowledge African language families than Greenberg. He cited the Niger-Egyptian language super-phylum, and I am more inclined to trust his interpretation over the mainstream Eurocentric Greenberg and the Semito-Hamitic, come Afro-Asiatic, come Afrasian Euro invention. Another important thing to note, is the Lemba people mentioned in this thread are NOT speakers of Semitic, but Niger-Kordofanian Bantu (according to Greenberg), yet they are culturally and genetically tied to the Israeli region of the Arabian Peninsula...
Physically, the Egyptian's were so diverse, it's impossible to make such a statement. If we're talking limb proportion, then their is no distinction between the wider African community and Kemetic mummies. If we're talking skull proportions, we know initial analysis of Kemetic remains stated 30-40% were Negroid, which we know is just a euphamism for 'undeniably black', (or West African in the narrow mind of Eurocentrists). The ones classified 'meditteranean' were probably of the elongated African phenotype, but they definately were not all elongated types, but a mixture of all African types - not exclusively linked to modern East/North East Africans.
Relationship, I'm not sure what you mean. Sudan has always been the closest relationship wise to Kemet. Western Sudan has always kept close cultural ties to central Africa and the wider Saharan community. Many African who now populate different parts of Africa took that culture with them to their respective locations. You have to imagine that East Africa, being the birthplace of humanity, during the flowering of the Sahara and the rise of Dyanstic Kemet, must have been the most populace place on earth, teaming with ethnicities, cultures, languages... the ones that remain are not necessarily the only ones that ever existed there. Kemet has been colonised several times in it's history, many times coloniser's imposed brutal system's of taxation and persecuted the indigenous horrendously, hence the wave's of migrations. Think about the different Nomes of Kemet, and cultural differences between the Nomes - how certain nomes would collapse completely during Intermediary periods. What happened to those Nomes (sub cultures)?
quote:It's not like upper Egyptians or northeastern sudanese migrated to the horn or vice versa but rather that this all region (NE Africa) was populated thousands and thousands years ago by people original of a small community probably located somehwere in the northeastern Sudan/Eritrea or central/northern Ethiopia expanding later at all directions south to northern kenya and up to Egypt with localized ethnicities emerging here and there. Also remember that Egyptians knew this very well, considering that they called the southern red sea coast "ancestral land", obviously 4-5000 years ago this region was ethnically even less diverse than today which made it more apparent how close related the people were. Today there has been to much input from other regions in particular middle east, despite this you can still see the strong relationship that exist between the people of this whole region.
OK, what of southern or Western Sudan? Why is that ommitted from your summary. The Nile carves its way from Uganda and Tanzania, and the location of Punt is still a big questionmark. I would posit that the entire East African region was ethnically more diverse than today if we are to take Out of Africa seriously. The whole human population is based on grouping leaving the East coast of Africa to populate other regions, some people of West/Central/NorthWest Africa just claim to have left later than everybody else. The northern Sudanese look no different than most of the hybridised Arab-African's that I see on a daily basis - I would not say they, or the Southern Egyptians share common 'elongated' features of the peoples from the Horn - at least I don't see it. It's a similar assumption that people make with Berber's and Arabs, but they're different. The North African phenotype is a result of mixing between Saharan African's and Indo-Europeans, surely this is supported by the known history of the region.
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: Linguistically, I pretty much reject the widely accepted Greenberg analysis of African languages, and reccommend any serious scholars do the same. Obenga, in my opinion was just as accomplished a linguist, however, he has much greater knowledge African language families than Greenberg. He cited the Niger-Egyptian language super-phylum, and I am more inclined to trust his interpretation over the mainstream Eurocentric Greenberg and the Semito-Hamitic, come Afro-Asiatic, come Afrasian Euro invention.
What's your take on linguist Chris Ehrets classification of this super phylum?
quote: WHC: You describe two other groups. One of them is the Afrasans. Can you talk about them for a moment?
Ehret: These are people who have been called Afro-Asiatic and also Afrasian. I'm saying "Afrasan" because I'm trying to get "Asia" out. There is still this idea that the Afro-Asiatic family had to come out of Asia. Once you realize that it's an African family with one little Asian offshoot, well, that itself is a very important lesson for world historians.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: Another important thing to note, is the Lemba people mentioned in this thread are NOT speakers of Semitic, but Niger-Kordofanian Bantu (according to Greenberg), yet they are culturally and genetically tied to the Israeli region of the Arabian Peninsula...
What's your take on why the Lemba would have a sacred prayer combining Hebrew and Arabic?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: If we're talking limb proportion, then their is no distinction between the wider African community and Kemetic mummies.
Whats your take on this analyisis of the limb proportions of the AE's?
quote:The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990).
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posted
One versus a whole spoken language - Hebrew/Arabic are not extinct languages? What would you have said about the Lemba's claim to Israeli origins prior to the publishing of these DNA results... would you have called the prayer a mere case of diffusion? What of the tables full of linguistic similarities between AE and Wolof as demonstrated by Diop, or AE and Yoruba as demonstrated by Lucas? That is more convincing evidence of a cultural heritage than a single prayer, surely.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: Another important thing to note, is the Lemba people mentioned in this thread are NOT speakers of Semitic, but Niger-Kordofanian Bantu (according to Greenberg), yet they are culturally and genetically tied to the Israeli region of the Arabian Peninsula...
What's your take on why the Lemba would have a sacred prayer combining Hebrew and Arabic?
posted
What do you want my take to be? Because he has acknowledged that it is African languages are African doesn't make a difference that Greenberg's knowledge of African languages when creating these classifications was 0. He used hap-hazard error prone methodology in the classification of these languages, and was unable to determine trend's lingustic trends of many African groups, such as the appending of vowels sounds 'o' and 'a' to the prefix and suffix of a word, term repitition, etc. Only an African linguist who understood African languages could fully classify African language families. Nothing I have seen yet has convinced me otherwise, although I will read your study in full and report back to you anything that manages to change my mind.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: Linguistically, I pretty much reject the widely accepted Greenberg analysis of African languages, and reccommend any serious scholars do the same. Obenga, in my opinion was just as accomplished a linguist, however, he has much greater knowledge African language families than Greenberg. He cited the Niger-Egyptian language super-phylum, and I am more inclined to trust his interpretation over the mainstream Eurocentric Greenberg and the Semito-Hamitic, come Afro-Asiatic, come Afrasian Euro invention.
What's your take on linguist Chris Ehrets classification of this super phylum?
quote: WHC: You describe two other groups. One of them is the Afrasans. Can you talk about them for a moment?
Ehret: These are people who have been called Afro-Asiatic and also Afrasian. I'm saying "Afrasan" because I'm trying to get "Asia" out. There is still this idea that the Afro-Asiatic family had to come out of Asia. Once you realize that it's an African family with one little Asian offshoot, well, that itself is a very important lesson for world historians.
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: What do you want my take to be? Because he has acknowledged that it is African languages are African doesn't make a difference that Greenberg's knowledge of African languages when creating these classifications was 0.
I don't want your take to be anything other than that of your own. I simply asked what your take was on Ehrets' classification, since you reject Greenbergs classification of Afro-Asiatic, as does Ehret. Ehret classified this language phylum as "Afrasan", maybe you would happen to have a better term?
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: Nothing I have seen yet has convinced me otherwise, although I will read your study in full and report back to you anything that manages to change my mind.
Not a study, but yes, I do encourage you to read the whole page, I have, and it's informative.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: One versus a whole spoken language - Hebrew/Arabic are not extinct languages?
I don't understand you...
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: What would you have said about the Lemba's claim to Israeli origins prior to the publishing of these DNA results... would you have called the prayer a mere case of diffusion?
It would seem that in this case the Lemba prayer which is noted to be a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic languages identifiably, would be more evidence than cognates inbetween languages, don't you think?
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: What of the tables full of linguistic similarities between AE and Wolof as demonstrated by Diop, or AE and Yoruba as demonstrated by Lucas? That is more convincing evidence of a cultural heritage than a single prayer, surely.
See above, the whole single prayer seems to be in a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic, they're not noted as cognates of Hebrew and Arabic.
Are these languages mentioned similar, or precisely the same as eachother?
What I say is in this case the linguistic, oral history and genetic evidence are more sincere of a correlation, surely!
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posted
I'd be tempted to go as far as saying that, perhaps with better understanding of the language, one might find Lemba Language (and other Zimbabwean languages), which are now classified as Niger Kordofian, maybe have identifiable links to the semitic string. But that is just guesswork. This is one of the reasons I see Greenberg's broad sweeping classifications as rather defunct, especially regarding the Niger Kordofian language phylum...
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: What of the tables full of linguistic similarities between AE and Wolof as demonstrated by Diop, or AE and Yoruba as demonstrated by Lucas? That is more convincing evidence of a cultural heritage than a single prayer, surely.
See above, the whole single prayer seems to be in a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic, they're not noted as cognates of Hebrew and Arabic.
Are these languages mentioned similar, or precisely the same as eachother?
What I say is in this case the linguistic, oral history and genetic evidence are more sincere of a correlation, surely! [/QB]
posted
Also, the Igbo, Fulani and Yoruba ALL have an oral history pointing to North/North East Africa. - Just because people choose to ignore it doesn't invalidate it. Also, being that some are waiting with baited breath for the results of Tut's DNA results, it is safe to say that due to the amount of foreign invasion's Egypt has undergone, until these results are publicised, we don't know the extent of genetic links exists between dynastic Kemet and other Africans. DNA analysis of current people's in the case of Kemet tell us very little about Ancient Kemet's make-up.
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: I'd be tempted to go as far as saying that, perhaps with better understanding of the language, one might find Lemba Language (and other Zimbabwean languages), which are now classified as Niger Kordofian, maybe have identifiable links to the semitic string. But that is just guesswork. This is one of the reasons I see Greenberg's broad sweeping classifications as rather defunct, especially regarding the Niger Kordofian language phylum...
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Narmer Menes: What of the tables full of linguistic similarities between AE and Wolof as demonstrated by Diop, or AE and Yoruba as demonstrated by Lucas? That is more convincing evidence of a cultural heritage than a single prayer, surely.
See above, the whole single prayer seems to be in a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic, they're not noted as cognates of Hebrew and Arabic.
Are these languages mentioned similar, or precisely the same as eachother?
What I say is in this case the linguistic, oral history and genetic evidence are more sincere of a correlation, surely!
posted
IM sorry but this is bullshit Haaretz full of kara fe kara wallahi genes that show yehudi origins bullshit.
What now u are going to find a Muslim gene and christian gene how about a nomadic gene.
There is nothing that shows Jewishness nothing at all circumcision, not eating pork, Cohen hahhhhahhahahhah ya Yehudi harami mut aliykum ya Israeli
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
The Lemba have nothing to do with Jewishness they have customs that predate arabia as well as socalled Khazarians who adopted it from another.
What they are trying to figure out is how these africans follow these customs ohh they have to have genes or knowledge from outside of there area.
Typical Yehudi and Western Bigotry claiming what is not theres and taking what is promised to others
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: IM sorry but this is bullshit Haaretz full of kara fe kara wallahi genes that show yehudi origins bullshit.
What now u are going to find a Muslim gene and christian gene how about a nomadic gene.
There is nothing that shows Jewishness nothing at all circumcision, not eating pork, Cohen hahhhhahhahahhah ya Yehudi harami mut aliykum ya Israeli
LOL, that is exactly what the Zionist wish you to believe, that there is such nonsense as a religious gene. These Zionist are just converted Germans/Russians and have no legacy to Egypt or Israel. Using the psuedo-science of genetics and data manipulation, they wish to convince the world otherwise.
Posts: 2403 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
Well it is not a religious gene per-say but a gene found amongst a select group of people..The link came about because these people the lemba were practicing a Judiac religion and claiming to be Jews..no one believed them or took tihem seriously untill the dna backed up their claims to have migrated from somewhere out-side Africa.. Now what you are missing is the fact that they carrying a more priestine form of that particular gene than the present inhabitance of Isreal Now this does not mean that they were "White" and became blacks in South Africa for according to more than one ancient report the Judeans were reported to look like Ethiopians.
Tacitus
Others assert that in the reign of Isis the overflowing population of Egypt, led by Hierosolymus and Judas, discharged itself into the neighboring countries. Many, again, say that they were a race of Ethiopian origin, who in the time of king Cepheus were driven by fear and hatred of their neighbors to seek a new dwelling-place. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/roman-jews.html
Now be mind-full that it is not present-day Ethiopia he was talking about but the country south of Kemet. Now he has other explaination of where the Jews may have originated but the fact is even if he is dead wrong about the Ethiopian origins he is confusing them with Kush/Meroites of his times.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Ps -- As I have pointed out here before, the CMH is another evidence that parallel microsatellite mutations across divergent clades can take place. It is found in both J1 and J2 clades, which are sister clades, meaning one doesn't descend from the other, but rather, they share common ancestry. These clades though, also have subclades that do NOT have CMH. This puts to question whether CMH really represents an eponymous ancestor. That said, though not exclusive to them, it does occur in relatively high frequencies in self-identified Jewish communities, when compared to many other groups.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
This thread is comical at best. The Lemba tribe were tested against the Cohen modal haplotype -- It is the Ashkenazi ydna that establishes jewish ancestry; certain white male Jews who claim to be direct descendants of [high priest] Aharon provided the ydna used as the standard.
The Kippah, i.e., Yarmulke, is of eastern European origin. That said, finding African Negroes wearing the kippah and claiming to be jewish, buttressed by actual ydna proves one thing -- Jewish and Arab admixture from trans-saharan slave trade era.
If you did not figure it out, the Yarmulke is a 10th century creation from eastern Europe. The mere fact these Negro Africans wear the Yarmulke illustrates foreign cultural influence. That is, the Jewish influence on Lemba people.
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The Cohen Modal Haplotype is observed in high frequency within the Cohanim, but also presents with significant incidence in other non-Jewish populations. The occurrence of the CMH in deeply divergent SNP haplogroups also indicates a lack of specificity of the CMH to the ancient Hebrew population. As such, inference of relation to Jewish populations for individuals or groups should be performed with caution when using the original CMH definition, as a false-positive result is likely. The original definition in tandem with SNP testing focusing on the subhaplogroups of J, or the use of the extended STR definition will reduce the occurrence of error in such inferences. - Ekins et al. 2005
It should be noted that even with the above authors' use of extended STRs, and the same applies to the standard CMH markers, in some instances CMH-compatability extended even to non-J haplogroups, albeit to a lower extent in each case study!
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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For the idiots who do not understand how the Cohen marker came about and its use as the standard:
188 men, who account for only 5% of the Jewish population, both claimed and provided, the Cohen genitic sample, YAP, DYS19B (Ydna). The Jewish men believe they are the direct descendants of Aharon. The genetic marker was found in 98.5% of those men.
These were WHITE JEWS and their blood determines if you are a Jew. If you are deemed a Jew, it means you are descended from THEM.
posted
For those interested in the FULL study(T. Parfitt -2000) see link below. Knowldege should be free.
= = = =
Y Chromosomes Traveling South: The Cohen Modal Haplotype and the Origins of the Lemba—the “Black Jews of Southern Africa” Mark G. Thomas,1 Tudor Parfitt,3 Deborah A. Weiss,4 Karl Skorecki,5 James F. Wilson,2 Magdel le Roux,6 Neil Bradman,7 and David B. Goldstein2
The Lemba are a traditionally endogamous group speaking a variety of Bantu languages who live in a number of locations in southern Africa. They claim descent from Jews who came to Africa from “Sena.” “Sena” is variously identified by them as Sanaa in Yemen, Judea, Egypt, or Ethiopia. A previous study using Y-chromosome markers suggested both a Bantu and a Semitic contribution to the Lemba gene pool, a suggestion that is not inconsistent with Lemba oral tradition. To provide a more detailed picture of the Lemba paternal genetic heritage, we analyzed 399 Y chromosomes for six microsatellites and six biallelic markers in six populations (Lemba, Bantu, Yemeni-Hadramaut, Yemeni-Sena, Sephardic Jews, and Ashkenazic Jews). The high resolution afforded by the markers shows that Lemba Y chromosomes are clearly divided into Semitic and Bantu clades. Interestingly, one of the Lemba clans carries, at a very high frequency, a particular Y-chromosome type termed the “Cohen modal haplotype,” which is known to be characteristic of the paternally inherited Jewish priesthood and is thought, more generally, to be a potential signature haplotype of Judaic origin. The Bantu Y-chromosome samples are predominantly (>80%) YAP+ and include a modal haplotype at high frequency. Assuming a rapid expansion of the eastern Bantu, we used variation in microsatellite alleles in YAP+ sY81-G Bantu Y chromosomes to calculate a rough date, 3,000–5,000 years before the present, for the start of their expansion.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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This news further confirms that there is no RACE. The Lemba - so called "blubber lip negro" has the same lineage as the Cohen carrying hg-J guy from the mountains of Afghanistan or Siberia.
Each adapted to survive in their environment. At least morphed to the people that surrounds them.
HG does NOT equal phenotype.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
When you think about it. All this bitching about E3a vs E3b siblingsWA vs EA). At one time they probably looked similar as any other sibling. Since they both had the same ”father”.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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