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Today I rented a book from my college library that is easily the most detailed book on pre-colonial Islam in and around West Africa. The book is called simply The Development of Islam in West Africa written by Mervyn Hiskett. Hiskett, now deceased wrote a number of books on Islam in Africa. He begins chapter 3 by describing a number of groups that helped spread Islam in Western Africa during the Middle Ages. For instance he talks about what he calls the "post-Almoravid Sanhaja" and another group that he says is of Mande origin originally associated with the Mali Empire called the Dyula. Originally settled in Mali and Volta lands, they became very successful businessmen and commercial traders eventually spreading their enterprise far away into Hausaland where Hiskett believes they began going by another name...Wangarawa.
Hiskett says, "as [the movement] got under way the Dyulas began to acquire an alternative name - the Wangarawa. The origin of this word is something of a puzzle. In the form Wangara or Ungara it seems to have applied in the first instance to the people of Galam, Bambuk, and Bure...and it is used by the medieval Arabic geographers as a blanket term for gold traders. The form Wangarawa seems to have acquired the Hausa suffix -awa, normally applied to the nouns of origin and profession. It may be that this apparently Hausa form came into general use from the 8/14 century on, when Dyula/Wangarawa began to reach Kano and other parts of Hausaland."
I have to run and do something though. I'll post the rest...the main point of this thread about the Kunta family/clan later this evening.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sorry it took so long. First and foremost I'd like to say that after reading this book some more, there's definitely some outdated terminology used like Negro for instance. Whenever there's old terminology, you have to watch out also for old beliefs and you'll know what I mean in a second.
Secondly, the section of chapter 3 jumped out at me for two reasons...
1. The name Kunta immediately makes me think of Kunta Kinte. Is there a relationship between Kunta Kinte and the Kunta family/clan who are also Muslim and spread throughout all of West Africa?
2. The supposed origins of the Kunta family.
According to Hiskett, the Kunta termed themselves Zwaya. On the meaning of the term, Hiskett says, "The word Zwaya comes from the Hassaniyya Arabic dialect and is derived from the classical Arabic zawiya, a Sufi seminary...it describes the religious class among the speakers of Hassaniyya Arabic. The speakers of Hassaniyya were predominantly members of Banu Ma'qil, of Yemenite origin" (Hiskett 47).
He goes on to mention groups Banu Ma'qil mixed with such as the Sanhaja and Tuareg. Hiskett also mentions other clans that called themselves Zwaya such as the Banu Dayman, the Idaw al-Hajj, the Kunta, the Shamasid Ahl Barikallah and the Kel Intasar. Hiskett says, "the word Zwaya is surely associated with the early spread of Sufism in the Sahara" (Hiskett 47). Sufism is an interesting aspect of Islam that doesn't get much attention. Many people have called it mystical and so have compared it to Kabbalah in Judaism.
Here's where it gets a little sticky. When describing the Kunta, Hiskett says, "The Kunta are a family group of Saharan Arabs who married on the male, but not normally the female, side, with the Sanhaja...as merchants and scholars...the devotion to Islam, to say nothing of their search for honest profit, carried them from the shores of the Atlantic to the Niger Bend and as far east as Borno" (Hiskett 49). At first glance, the writing of their being Arab is confusing to say the least. We know this was a time period (around 853 AD) when Islam was being spread throughout Africa by Arabs, but the association of Kunta with this Yemenite Arab origin conflicts with a possible connection with Kunta Kinte who, while Muslim, was Mandika/Malinke. Unless of course we take the work of Tariq Berry into account who has written about this, while not perfect, has shown that many of these original Arabs were in fact Black (but I doubt Hiskett saw it that way).
Hiskett then moves on to elaborate on the history of the Kunta and how they established themselves within the Sahara. So you'll get a clearer picture and so I won't need to paraphrase I'll simply quote the entire passage....
"It is said that their ancestors first left Ifriqiya, the eastern half of North Africa, as a result of the troubles there of the Fatimid period and that they eventually settled in Tuwat. This is said to have happened circa 1387 AD...the move was the first episode in the family's southward penetration into the Sahara. C.1400 a certain Sidi'ali al-Kunti emerged as qutb, 'Axis' or 'Pole' of the Qadiriyya order of Sufis. He also began what became a standard practice among Kunti shaykhs. Sidi'Ali had a son named Sidi Muhammad al-Kunti also a Qadiri qutb, led the family out of Tuwat on the next stage of their migration into the Sahara in about 1450. This Sidi Muhammed lived at a time when there was considerable rivalry between the Berber Lamtuna and the Hassaniyya Arabs for supremacy in the Western Sahara. At one point this broke out into open warfare and Sidi Muhammed allied himself with the Hassanids in an attack on the Lamtuna. As a result of this, the Hassanids became dominant [allowing] Sidi Muhammed to lay the foundations for Kunta pre-eminence in the Western Sahara."
Hiskett then goes on to talk about how the family moved again to Walata and later about how there was a split in the family due to infighting and the 'Kuntas of the East' became a strong trading family who had caravans touring the Sahara, Niger Bend, Katsina, Gobir, Dendi, and even Borno. On the influence of the spread of Islam in West Africa, Hiskett says, "[Their] main contribution lay in their spreading of more advanced and systematic Sufi ideas; and in developing the structure of rank within the Qadiriyya tariqa. However theirs was an elitist form of Sufism - the Sufism of learned shaykhs, not of the common people. This elitism persisted in the Qadiryya. It helped to provoke the rise of the populist Tijaniyya tariqa in 1831, which was a rebellion against Qadiri exclusiveness."
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Okay, i've been very busy lately but want to say the Kunta (who seem to be a Muslim group) are mentioned in Marq De Villier and Sheila Hirtle's book about Timbuktu and peripherally the Sahelian area in general.
posted
The Kunta Tadmakkak or TaMakkak are descendants of the early Sulaym-Hilal Arabs (like the Hassaniyya and Trarza "Moors") and Berber people.
The Sulaym are of course the people noted by Al Jahiz (9th c.) in the Harrah of northwest Arabia whom he calls black "like the lava" there.
The Kurd, Ibn Athir (12th c. A.D.) and other Muslims of non-Arabian origin used to say the Sulaym were very black because of their "purity" of blood.
It is probable the Kunta and Hassaniyya are much lighter in complexion than the Arab side of their ancestry.
A friend of mine visiting Niger took photos of them.
Kunta man relaxing in Niger
[
Woman of the Kunta, as in Mauritania, are "fattened up" to be more attractive
Another Kunta
Another well known people of the Zwaya or Zuwaya are the Mosallama further west in Libya, Chad and Sudan
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Kunta Tadmakkak or TaMakkak are descendants of the early Sulaym-Hilal Arabs (like the Hassaniyya and Trarza "Moors") and Berber people.
The Sulaym are of course the people noted by Al Jahiz (9th c.) in the Harrah of northwest Arabia whom he calls black "like the lava" there.
The Kurd, Ibn Athir (12th c. A.D.) and other Muslims of non-Arabian origin used to say the Sulaym were very black because of their "purity" of blood.
It is probable the Kunta and Hassaniyya are much lighter in complexion than the Arab side of their ancestry.
A friend of mine visiting Niger took photos of them.
Kunta man relaxing in Niger
[
Woman of the Kunta, as in Mauritania, are "fattened up" to be more attractive
Another Kunta
Another well known people of the Zwaya or Zuwaya are the Mosallama further west in Libya, Chad and Sudan
Do you think there's any connection between the Kunta and the Mandinka from Mali? I'm almost certain they would have crossed paths at one time or another. The reason I'm making such a big deal out of this is because Kunta Kinte has descendents in America. Which would mean there are America's with "Arab" ancestry and don't even know it. Of course we're not talking about the same Arabs you see on TV or those that dominate Islam today. Even the Kunta in your pictures, while not as dark as some other Africans...would definitely be considered Black in America...there are even Black Americans with their skin complexion. But that's all somewhat superficial.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Do you think there's any connection between the Kunta and the Mandinka from Mali? I'm almost certain they would have crossed paths at one time or another. The reason I'm making such a big deal out of this is because Kunta Kinte has descendents in America. Which would mean there are America's with "Arab" ancestry and don't even know it. Of course we're not talking about the same Arabs you see on TV or those that dominate Islam today. Even the Kunta in your pictures, while not as dark as some other Africans...would definitely be considered Black in America...there are even Black Americans with their skin complexion. But that's all somewhat superficial
king this is what the " unknown arabs" says. Most of teh nations that the AA's where captureed from claimed arab ancestry. Yes the mandinka have marriage relations with the kounta. if u read the book tariq explains the the relation. the mandinka who are the soldier caste of the wangara or wankara are of arab descent from the ancestor wankara bin taras(baras) bin haroun on the authority of askia muhammad told to mahmoud al-k3ati who heared from dameer bin y3acoub who heared it from his shiekh shamharoush al-jinni. this narration is the explanation of the narrative that exist with the songhai qawaaliyeen(griot) that za-alaimaan came with his brother. for some reason people look at it as conflicting but this is incorrect for it is explictly(by the shiekh shamharoush) stated in the fettash that the banu taras split up( into their perspective areas)wakre being the state of the kaya maghan(ghana) who ran them all because they were the oldest klan.
the book roots does mention teh kinte klan being blacksmiths from old mali who came from a marabout who dedicated his life to spreading islam in the land. from an article entitled "3 killed in violence between Kountas and Arabs in eastern MALI "
quote:The Kounta are fair-skinned people of Arabic descent who are known for their religious learning. Many are marabouts - Islamic religious leaders who also practice magic and traditional medicine.
QUOTE FROM THE BOOK ROOTS
quote:In his nattive country of mauretania, karaiba kunta kinte had thrity five reigns of age when his teacher, a master marabout, gave him the blessings tha made him a holy man, said grandma yaisa. Kunta's grandfather had followed a family tradition of holy men that dated back many hundreds of rains into old mali
quote:in juffere kaira kunta kinte took his first wife, a mandinka maiden who name was sireng
so yes aa's are of arab descent
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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^^^^ African Americans are not Arabs....Its easy to see how Arabs uphold Arabia over Africa even on this site posters like Fawal, Muhammed Abed, etc. Praying 5 times a Day to a Rock in the middle of the Desert is the the Highlight of Arab Achievments while the Highlight of the African is the Ramseum, the Abu Simbel monuments, the Christian Temples in Ethiopia etc.
^^^^^ The Kemmenou way of saying "Peace be upon you" to his Arab brothers!! LOL
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Im not sure but i was told that Sufi order of islam entered western africa not by the kunta but the kunta were arabized and converted to islam under the Sufi order that entered North Africa from the Idrissi's as well in the time of the Almohad.
Islam Entered Abyssinia Before it Entered Mecca.
Islam is new to North AFrica
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Do you think there's any connection between the Kunta and the Mandinka from Mali? I'm almost certain they would have crossed paths at one time or another. The reason I'm making such a big deal out of this is because Kunta Kinte has descendents in America. Which would mean there are America's with "Arab" ancestry and don't even know it. Of course we're not talking about the same Arabs you see on TV or those that dominate Islam today. Even the Kunta in your pictures, while not as dark as some other Africans...would definitely be considered Black in America...there are even Black Americans with their skin complexion. But that's all somewhat superficial
king this is what the " unknown arabs" says. Most of teh nations that the AA's where captureed from claimed arab ancestry. Yes the mandinka have marriage relations with the kounta. if u read the book tariq explains the the relation. the mandinka who are the soldier caste of the wangara or wankara are of arab descent from the ancestor wankara bin taras(baras) bin haroun on the authority of askia muhammad told to mahmoud al-k3ati who heared from dameer bin y3acoub who heared it from his shiekh shamharoush al-jinni. this narration is the explanation of the narrative that exist with the songhai qawaaliyeen(griot) that za-alaimaan came with his brother. for some reason people look at it as conflicting but this is incorrect for it is explictly(by the shiekh shamharoush) stated in the fettash that the banu taras split up( into their perspective areas)wakre being the state of the kaya maghan(ghana) who ran them all because they were the oldest klan.
the book roots does mention teh kinte klan being blacksmiths from old mali who came from a marabout who dedicated his life to spreading islam in the land. from an article entitled "3 killed in violence between Kountas and Arabs in eastern MALI "
quote:The Kounta are fair-skinned people of Arabic descent who are known for their religious learning. Many are marabouts - Islamic religious leaders who also practice magic and traditional medicine.
QUOTE FROM THE BOOK ROOTS
quote:In his nattive country of mauretania, karaiba kunta kinte had thrity five reigns of age when his teacher, a master marabout, gave him the blessings tha made him a holy man, said grandma yaisa. Kunta's grandfather had followed a family tradition of holy men that dated back many hundreds of rains into old mali
quote:in juffere kaira kunta kinte took his first wife, a mandinka maiden who name was sireng
so yes aa's are of arab descent
Well since there does seem to be a clear connection. The final question to ask would be as AswaniAswad says. Were they arabized or are they truly from Yemen? From the pics above, I don't know if I'd call them fair-skinned though.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Many of those of North AFrica that are arab are of Yemeni origin. My best friend is a Libyan with Yemeni origin.
Why would u think that the Arab is native to North Africa please stop thinking like that they have been in africa for a long time but not that long with the exception of Habashi.
The Zawiya have been arabized before these people were not called Zawiya. Zawiya is only associated with Sufi order of mystics and showing that they speak a Hassaniya arabic shows that they are arabized Muslims and not truly arabic speakers.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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arabization would need proof because they fit the descriptions of how arabs described themselves in their text and oral traditons. arabization needs proof instead of assumptions as is the case with the general arab world of today who automatically assume that if an arab is dark he is automatically mixed with non-arabs. alot of people dont know that there is a divide tactic against arabs since the fall of andalus. they want pepole to beleive that the place of west africa was not peopled by pepole who came from euphrates area and arabian peninsula which is their choice because the fact will all ways remain that TRAINED AFRICAN QWAWAALI(GRIOT)KNOW THEIR ANCESTRY this is what a lot of many aa's are ignorant about. the very pepole who they see as arabs are in fact what is recorded in the religious text. (mixed or of 3ajami origin) they do not look like the original arabs. This is religious text not hunches. most africans are like aa's in the since that they are not told specific details and are ignorant of basic arabic culture and what a true arab looks like. i have had many conversations with them and found that they are mad at modern pale-skinned arabs so reject anything arabic and ride on the pan-african ticket which is no different than the pseudo pan-arabic movement, movements awnsering colonialism. even the racist of europeans(ethnologist) had to admit that the hausa language is related to languages outside the continent. nobody can tell the difference between a sudanese or a yoruba or a mandinka or a berabiche except by language and clothes. y in sub-sahara they share a the same color terminology as the ancient arabs do. this is not found in the modern known arabs of today. proof of the conspirated divide is that of the ignorant statement made on this board
quote:African Americans are not Arabs....Its easy to see how Arabs uphold Arabia over Africa even on this site posters like Fawal, Muhammed Abed, etc. Praying 5 times a Day to a Rock in the middle of the Desert is the the Highlight of Arab Achievments while the Highlight of the African is the Ramseum, the Abu Simbel monuments, the Christian Temples in Ethiopia etc.
this is just hate of arabs because of ignorant arabs of non-arabic orgins. it does nothing but blind to the real issue which is is their connection of aa's to ancient arabs. you and I just read what alex haley recorded from a qawaali(griot) about kunta's family. they are originaly malians from the kounta family who married with mandinkas who themselves are awlaad wankara. i dont understand it because mahmoud k3'ti(author of tarikh fettash grandson of an andalusian exile) who was by marriage related to askia muhammad relates that major scholars of arab lineage have and even neighboring arab kingdoms(morocco) agreed to the lineage of the kings of ghana, mali and songhai. from " deeper roots" abdullah hakim quick
quote:You inquired from me, some time bnack , my name that I had given me on teh coast of Africa, and i told you that it was Anna Mus, which in english ismoses. The naem that i had furthermore given me as a warrior was Gorah Conrdan. My father was one of the lords of the Carsoe nation(mandingo). MY NATION, AND THE ARABIC, ARE ALL ONE. [quote]quote from sheokh abdullah bin fudio quoting his brother uthman bin fodio the fulani islamic reformer of nigeria in the 18th century. you can also find this in the muhammad bellos easy essay of the history of takrur(west africa)[QUOTE]And 3'uqbah, the ancestor of the Fulani, is from the ARABS
wolof being the children of ndyadyan ndyay. his name is amadu(ahmad) bubakar bin 3umar first brak of walo he is the son of a marabout amir named abu bakr and a torodo woman. the yoruba whose language have alot of words akin to arabic are omo oduduwa(ummat-oduduwa) the nation or children of odua the founder of balyaribe. hausa the klan of bayajidda dan abdullahi and etc. the list goes on but too many groups claim origin from either the peninsula or the euphrates area(canaan). the lemba claim jewish origins as well as the igbo and some tuareg
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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As shown by genetics many people of Fulani and Mande true Berber ancestry including Tuareg and Kunta etc came to America. Of course certain of them possess some recent Arab blood. I do not know if Alex Haley's ancestry is from the Kunta who are supposed to be of mixed Arab and Berber origin.
In any case the Islamic Arabs connected with the Kunta, Hassaniyya Maqil groups were of Sulaym Hilal (Hawazin) origin who are originally described as a heck of a lot darker than the modern Kunta.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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"February 5th of 1889 Swan Burnett read his piece “A Note on the Melungeons” before the Society of American Anthropologists. It also was printed in the Boston Traveler and appeared five days later in the Atlanta Constitution. The Boston Traveler is likely where Will Allen Dromgoole first read about these ‘strange people. Burnett’s article was published in October of 1889, Vol. 11, pp 347-349, "American Anthropologist Magazine."
After appearing in the Atlanta Constitution in February a Mr. Laurence C. Johnson wrote to the editor on March 11, 1889 with the history of the ‘Melungeons’ as he knew it. This appeared prior to Dromgoole. Mr. Johnson was not selling newspapers, writing an article or selling a book. It appears he was simply responding to the article by Swan Burnett and telling an honest account of the Melungeons, as he knew it. I believe this story is an important one in the way that it is told.
~Joanne Pezzullo~
Atlanta Constitution March 11, 1899 The Melungeons
Meridian, Miss., March 11– Editors Constitution
Near a month ago an article appeared in The CONSTITUTION named Melungeons. I laid it aside in order to correspond with the writer, but the paper got destroyed and the name and address had not been noticed with care, and are forgotten. Excuse me then for addressing him through the same medium.
His name Melungeons is a local designation for this small peculiar race. Their own claim to be Portuguese is more generally known. Their original site is on the Pedee river in South and North Carolina . They were once especially strong in Georgetown and Darlington districts of the latter. Though called Portuguese – this does not indicate their true origin. I have no doubt local traditions, and the records still to be found in the Charleston library will give the true account. As dimly recollected, for I never made search with a purpose in view, it was thus in the primary colonial times of the Carolinas, Winyaw Bay was the best and most frequented harbor on the coast, and Georgetown more accessible, was more of a c ommercial town than old Charlestown., to that port British cruisers sometimes brought prizes.
Among these once was a Balce Rover, [*see below] which was sold for the distribution of the proceeds as prize money. The crew consisting mostly of Moors, with a sprinkling of Arabs and negroes, were turned ashore free. Their complexion and religion prevented immediate absorption by the white race, and they found wives among Indians, negroes and cast off white women at a time when many of these last were sold by immigrant ships for their passage money. They became a peculiar people. They were the free people of color of the Pedee region so true to Marion during our revolutionary struggle and no other race in America retained such traditionary hatred of the British.
Your correspondent [whose name I am sorry to have forgotten] having a taste for ethnological studies will confer a favor upon that branch of early post-colonial record and legislative proceedings of South Carolina. He will find it sustained by the appearance of these people if he can find a few pure specimens–their physical structure, their hair, their teeth, and general features, though every trace of their Moslem religion and north African dialect may have long been lost.
Very respectfully,
Laurence C. Johnson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * The newspaper was hard to read and 'Balce Rover' may not be the correct spelling.
If anyone has an idea where to find these records or what 'Balce Rover' is, please email me.... "
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Well since there does seem to be a clear connection. The final question to ask would be as AswaniAswad says. Were they arabized or are they truly from Yemen? From the pics above, I don't know if I'd call them fair-skinned though.
The Kunta are supposed to be part Hassaniyya and part Tuareg. Whatever Arab blood was coming from Arabia and Yemen and most of the rest of Arabia in the time they arrived in North Africa was a lot darker than the modern Kunta. African Americans as shown from dna evidence are a mixture of West Africans with some Tuareg and Arab including Arabian and Siddi blood as well as various Eastern andn European influences.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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mandinka are not arabs and do not have arab blood,i just want to make that clear.
anyway most of the african americans that came over in america did not have any Tuareg,siddi or Arab dna.many blacks that came to america came from nigeria,and ghana,mande as well all the way down to angola.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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igbo are not of jewish origin and Fulani are not of arab origin.some groups just make things up,but it's true that the first arabs were black,or i should say the arabians were black.i think the term arabian is different than arab. so the first arabians were black,but i do not know if that's true for arabs. ___________-
The Kounta people are a Berber-Arab ethnic group of Sahrawi (of Sahara) Bedouins, today residing mostly in northern Mali and southern Mauritania. Believed to be descended from the Zenata Berbers of the western Sahara, the Kounta consider themselves related to the Arab nomads and warriors who brought Islam to North Africa in the eighth century (CE). Specifically, they trace their lineage from Uqba ibn Nafi, a Muslim leader of the conquest period.
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i read have not read everything in here but i have the feeling someone is trying to say these groups are of arab origin and if someone is trying to say that,then they are wrong.i get the feeling one of posters is trying to say that since i look up some of thier past post and trying to find out where they are coming from since i have not been here for awhile.
In 1976, Haley published Roots: The Saga of an American Family, a novel based on his family's history, starting with the story of Kunta Kinte, kidnapped in The Gambia in 1767 and transported to the Province of Maryland to be sold as a slave. Haley claimed to be a seventh-shirri descendant of Kunta Kinte, and Haley's work on the novel involved ten years of research, intercontinental travel and writing. He went to the village of Juffure, where Kunta Kinte grew up and which is still in existence, and listened to a tribal historian tell the story of Kinte's capture.[1] Haley also traced the records of the ship, The Lord Ligonier, which he said carried his ancestor to America. Genealogists have since disputed Haley's research and conclusions, and Haley made an out-of-court settlement with Harold Courlander, who had sued him for plagiarism. ____________ just to clear up something just in case it's heading to place i do not like.
Soninke Wangara
The Wangara (also known as Wakore) were Soninke clans specialized in trade, Islamic scholarship and law (as lawyers and cadis), who migrated from the Mandé city of Awkar into the Mali provinces of Mema, Beledugu, Zaga, Bendugu, and Massina, among others.
A Malian source, cited in the Tarikh al-Sudan, distinguishes the Wangara on a socio-professional level from their Malinke kinsmen by claiming the latter to be princes and warriors and the former "traders who carry gold dust from country to country as the courtiers of princes".
_________________
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
quote:wow!!! that is so impressive. this is weird though because a person from mali is saying that the people who ran mali and timbuktu claimed arab ancestry is nothing but a farce because of the jewish european discipline of anthropology, d.n.a., and missionary science.
ya bin berry did you know that europe sends african-european spies to arab countries to pose as students. i was told this by a cameroonian arab. i didnt know the love alot of africans had for their colonial masters. i was awe struck.
Please, this is what I mean by false science. I'M from MALI, I know my history and that history is that of the Western Sudan and greater African complex. It has nothing to do with myths made up during the Islamic era, there's no evidence of any large scale Southwest Asian or Arab ancestry in Mali via Arab men during the past 2 centuries.
Muslim, Christian, and Jewish peoples of all paths claim linkage with the peoples or individuals associated with their specific religion. It dosen't mean that those myths are real, it's very unlikely that Arab men spawned half of the modern ethnicities located across half of the Old World, from Albania to Tanzania to China. It Just Didn't Happen!!!
"Love for their colonial masters"... WTF, and what we should have an alliance with you ARABSSSS... please!
The only thing that supports the relationship betweens Arabs and Africans is Islam, other then that the relationship is rather negative. [/QB]
______________-
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
quote:Doctoris Scientia you keep saying that you are from Mali like it means something. All it means is that you are a Malian who knows nothing about the history of Mali. You seem to have a personal problem with Arabs. What's your problem with Arabs if you don't mind my asking. Also, are you a Muslim? Why are you sitting here misleading people who know no better by saying things about Mali that you know are not true? You say that there are no Arabs in Mali. Do you really believe that? What about these Malian Arabs:
I know the history of my people and my country.. it means everything, I've actually come in contact with the various people who inhabit Mali and surrounding countries, you don't. You simply base theories and claims on myths, myths that all seem to trace back to the Islamic era...cough. I've yet to hear Malians describe themselves as Arab or of Arab ancestry. Ask any Tuareg, ask any Mande, ask any Fulani... we are all AFRICANS.
You wan't me to tellyou the truth, I really don't care for Arabs. Other then Islam, Arabs fucked up mush of Africa... on the web they claim linkage with Africans, a false brotherhood... but in reality, there's nothing brotherly about our, Africans, relationship with Arabs.
I've never seen or heard of any ethnic Malian Arabs.
Funny, how your article is the only web source in regard to Malian "Arabs".
Some articles falsely assume that the various northern Saharan tribes are rather indeed "Arab", but in reality thats pure utter nonsence. Those tribesw belong to various Tuareg and Moorish clans.
Or in some cases they may be refering to western Baggara tribes, who moved west via Chad. These people arn't real Arabs, they're Arabnized Africans.
Malis view of these Chadian Baggara Arabs is similar to that of Niger... DEPORTATION, LOL
"Diffa Arabs (also known as Mahamid Arabs) is the Nigerien name given to Afro-Arab nomadic tribespeople living in eastern Niger, mostly in the Diffa Region. Numbering no more than 150,000 and accounting for less than %1.5 of the Niger's population, the Diffa Arabs are in fact the western most dispersion of Arabic speaking Sudanese nomads, primarily drawn from the Mahamid sub clan of Sudan and Chad."
"In October 2006, Niger announced that it would deport the Arabs living in the Diffa region of eastern Niger to Chad. This population numbered about 150,000. While the government was rounding up Arabs in preparation for the deportation, two girls died, reportedly after fleeing government forces, and three women suffered miscarriages. Niger's government eventually suspended a controversial decision to deport Arabs. Arab Nigeriens protested that they were legal citizens of Niger, with no other home to return to, and that the Military of Niger had seized their livestock, their only means of livelihood."
Not only the government, other peoples what them out also, my people the Tuareg included!!
"Many in the Diffa Arab community fought against 1990s Tuareg rebellion, and in recent years, have come into increased conflict with Hausa, Kanuri, and Tuareg communities. News reports quote Nigerien officials during the 2001 census reporting that Arab communities were in constant conflict with their neighbors over resources, were armed, and that "A relative unanimity prevails among the population who want them to leave the area" ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!
Mali population
Ethnic groups: Mande 50% (Bambara, Malinke, Soninke), Peul 17%, Voltaic 12%, Songhai 6%, Tuareg and Moor 10%, other 5%
[/QB]
good one.i posted these replies just to make things more clear.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
hausa,the wolof ,yoruba etc are not have arab origin either.
____________
Kunta Kinte Kunta Kinte is the central character of the novel, Roots: The Saga of an American Family by American author Alex Haley, and of the television miniseries Roots,[1] based on the book. Haley described his book as faction - a mixture of fact and fiction.[2] After Haley's book became nationally famous, American author Harold Courlander noted that the section describing Kinte's life was apparently taken from Courlander's book The African. Haley at first dismissed the charge, but later issued a public statement affirming that Courlander's book had been the source, and Haley attributed the error to a mistake of one of his assistant researchers.
Kunta Kinte is a Muslim of the Mandinka tribe. He is captured and brought as a slave to Annapolis, Maryland, and later sold to a plantation owner in Spotsylvania County, Virginia near the present-day rural community of Partlow.
Haley's novel begins with Kunta's birth in the village of Juffure in The Gambia, West Africa in 1750. Kunta is the first of four sons of the Mandinka tribesman Omoro and his wife Binta Kebba. Haley describes Kunta's strict upbringing, the rigors of the manhood training he undergoes, and the proud origins of the Kinte name.
_____________ quote-
While Islam was practiced in the cities, the local rural majority were non-Muslim traditionalists. Often the leaders were nominal Muslims in the interest of economic advancement while the masses were traditionalists.
________________________- to clear this up the Wangara are not mandinka,they are mande but not mandinka.the Soninke are not of arab origin.they are mande.
The Wangara (also known as Wakore) were Soninke clans specialized in trade, Islamic scholarship and law (as lawyers and cadis), who migrated from the Mandé city of Awkar into the Mali provinces of Mema, Beledugu, Zaga, Bendugu, and Massina, among others.
A Malian source, cited in the Tarikh es-Sudan, distinguishes the Wangara on a socio-professional level from their Malinke kinsmen by claiming the latter to be princes and warriors and the former "traders who carry gold dust from country to country as the courtiers of princes".
Located in the Lakes Region at the eastern end of the “country of Wanqara” was Tiraqqa, a predecessor of Timbuktu. It was one of the great commercial centers of the region —a meeting place of caravans from Ghana and Tadmakka in the 10th and 11th centuries—and a dependency of Ghana. The geographer Al-Idrisi describes it as “one of the towns of Wanqara”—large, well populated, and unwalled—and relates that it was “subject to the ruler of Ghana, in litigation." It remained an important mart until the 13th century, at which time Timbuktu replaced it.
Not only were they gold merchants, they exercised a virtual monopoly of the world-system’s gold trade. Al-Idrisi describes their land as having "flourishing towns and famous strongholds. Its inhabitants are rich, for they possess gold in abundance, and many good things are imported to them from the outermost parts of the earth... "
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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here are some more info on the real origin of the mande.
The Bambara (Bamana in their own language, or sometimes Banmana) are a Mande people living in west Africa, primarily in Mali but also in Guinea, Burkina Faso and Senegal. They are considered to be amongst the largest Mande ethnic groups, and are the dominant Mande group in Mali, with 80% of the population speaking the Bambara language, regardless of ethnicity.
History The Bamana originated as a section of the Mandinka people, the founders of the Mali Empire in the 13th Century. Both a part of the Mandé ethnic group, whose earliest known history can be traced back to sites near Tichitt (now subsumbed by the Sahara in southern Mauritania), where urban centers began as early as 1500 BCE. By 250 BCE a Mande subgroup, the Bozo, founded the city of Djenne. Between 300 CE and 1100 CE the Soninke Mande dominated the Western Sudan, leading the Ghana Empire. When the Mandé Songhai Empire dissolved after 1600 CE, many Mandé speaking groups along the upper Niger river bassin turned inward. The Bamana appeared in this milieu with the rise of the Bamana Empire in the 1740s.
Growing from farming communities in Ouassoulou, between Sikasso and Côte-d’Ivoire, Bamana age co-fraternities (called Tons) began to develop a state structure which became the Bambara Empire. In stark contrast to their Muslim neighbors, the Bamana state practised and formalised traditional polytheistic religion, though Muslim communities remained locally powerful, if excluded from the central state at Segu.
Although most Bamana today adhere to Islam, many still practise the traditional rituals, especially in honoring ancestors. This form of syncretic Islam remains rare, even allowing for conversions that in many cases happened in the mid to late 19th century. This recent history, though, contributes to the richness and fame (in the West) of Bamana ritual arts.
________________________- Mandinka
History The Mandinka migrated west from the Niger River basin in search of better agricultural lands and more opportunities for conquest. During this expansion, they established their rule from modern day Gambia to Guinea. They were probably one of the original groups that inhabited the ancient city of Djenné-Jeno. The Mandes founded the empire of Kaabu, comprising 20 small kingdoms. Some upper-class or urban Mandinkas converted to Islam during the reign of the great Mansa Musa(1320-1358AD).
The majority of the Mandinka were still animists at the beginning of the 18th century. Through a series of conflicts, primarially with the Fula led Kingdom of Fouta Djallon and amongst sub states of the Kaabu Empire, about half of the Senegambian Mandinka were converted to Islam while as many as third where sold into slavery to Americas, through capture in conflict. Today, the majority of Mandinka are Muslim. A significant part of the African-Americans in North America decended from Mandinka people.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Well since there does seem to be a clear connection. The final question to ask would be as AswaniAswad says. Were they arabized or are they truly from Yemen? From the pics above, I don't know if I'd call them fair-skinned though.
The Kunta are supposed to be part Hassaniyya and part Tuareg. Whatever Arab blood was coming from Arabia and Yemen and most of the rest of Arabia in the time they arrived in North Africa was a lot darker than the modern Kunta. African Americans as shown from dna evidence are a mixture of West Africans with some Tuareg and Arab including Arabian and Siddi blood as well as various Eastern andn European influences.
anyway most of the african americans that came over in america did not have any Tuareg,siddi or Arab dna.many blacks that came to america came from nigeria,and ghana,mande as well all the way down to angola.
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: mandinka are not arabs and do not have arab blood,i just want to make that clear.
anyway most of the african americans that came over in america did not have any Tuareg,siddi or Arab dna.many blacks that came to america came from nigeria,and ghana,mande as well all the way down to angola.
100% C/S... we already finished off this discussion in another thread and frankly I'm not at all intrested in wasting my breathe argueing with people with their own agenda. This is another form of Eurocentrism or should I say Arabcentrism. Arabs played a very small role in West Africa or in the Sudan in general, Islam expanded parallel to the expansion of Muslim African merchents, tribes, dynasties, and other forms of urban civilizations. The small number of non-West Africans in the vicinity of West Africa were largly of northern Maghrebi origin. There is not one tribe in West Africa or the whole of "Sudan" who can equally trace their origins to Arabia, their ancestry is all if not mostly of local African origin. Even the Baggara who represent the biggest "Arab" tribe not in the Sudan, but all of Africa; possess little to no non-African influences according to the most recent and biggest study ever accomplished, i.e. the Tishkoff study. Less than 2.90% of the Baggara's genetic makeup can be possibly traced to outside of Africa. Any non-African input into the Fulani was even less than that, 0.50%. So there you go, ultimate proof that all of these African tribes you guys identify as half Arabs, are in fact 100% African.
Even the light skin Mozabite in northern Algeria were shown to have been predomiantly African.
"In regard to the Mozabite in Algeria.
Mozabite = 40% African Blue + 20% Eurasian Blue = 60 % Blue.
In addition to the 40% composed of both Cushitic (Purple) and Niger-Kordafanian (Orange).
Northern Algerian Mozabite are therefore 80% African and 20% Eurasian."
Chadic speaking peoples in West Africa who also previously claimed "Arab" origins, reportly turned out to be 100% African with no outside influences.
Clustering with Southern Sudan / Central Sudanic + forms their OWN cluster.
Also African-Americans are not a huge mixture as suggested by Dana, according to the study African-Americans were 87% non-"Saharan/Dogon" African, and 13% blue, which is more likely than not a mixture of both indigenous African "Saharan/Dogon" admixture and non-African "European" admixture. So according to the study, African-Americans would be less than 13% non-African.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Thanks for your responce to these people trying to claim Africans as Arabs. I really have NO Clue why they think claiming Africans were originally Arab is somehow good for Africans.
You can't beat Genetics and they prove Arabs were very few in Africa. It seems people like Abdul and Others have a self hate for themselves so they have to Make any and all Africans linked to Arabs to feel better about themselves. Sad.
One thing I will say is that Dana is not a selfhater, she is a truthseeker that hunts and knows many of the Arab tribes. The thing is though no matter how people may word it, Africans are not the Same as Arabs. And to try and claim most Africans as coming from Arabia is just wrong thinking.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo: mandinka are not arabs and do not have arab blood,i just want to make that clear.
anyway most of the african americans that came over in america did not have any Tuareg,siddi or Arab dna.many blacks that came to america came from nigeria,and ghana,mande as well all the way down to angola.
No one said the Mandinka are Arabs.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by KING: Doctoris Scientia
Thanks for your responce to these people trying to claim Africans as Arabs. I really have NO Clue why they think claiming Africans were originally Arab is somehow good for Africans.
You can't beat Genetics and they prove Arabs were very few in Africa. It seems people like Abdul and Others have a self hate for themselves so they have to Make any and all Africans linked to Arabs to feel better about themselves. Sad.
One thing I will say is that Dana is not a selfhater, she is a truthseeker that hunts and knows many of the Arab tribes. The thing is though no matter how people may word it, Africans are not the Same as Arabs. And to try and claim most Africans as coming from Arabia is just wrong thinking.
Peace
What are you talking about? I'm talking about the spread of Sufism in West Africa and of some of the clans that brought it here. How do you guys think Islam got to West Africa? Through trade and conversion. Some of this conversion would have occurred through intermarriage. This is a natural recurring aspect of migrating societies. But don't make generalized statements claiming people are saying things they're not. It's like people who don't want to acknowledge that Islam played an important role in the lives of slaves and it was beaten out of most of them along the way. Historians would want you to believe all of the slaves were pagans. Go back to my original questions (the whole point of this thread)...
quote:1. Is there a relationship between Kunta Kinte and the Kunta family/clan who are also Muslim and spread throughout all of West Africa?
2. The supposed origins of the Kunta family.
If I could make a theory, I'd say some of the Kunta may have "fused" with Mandinka elements...not that the Mandinka share the same lineage. The Kunta family is very important in that region and were that way for centuries. I think knowing their history better is important. And has been said, the Kunta themselves even if they're of Yemenite origin as the book suggested doesn't mean they weren't Black.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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King I really was not talking about you. I know you have no selfhate in you.
It's just that I see some threads on this section that claim Arab genealogy for African Ethnic Groups and they Claim EVERY and ALL west African groups as being part Arab or originating in the Middle East. It's this kind of thinking that has me thinking these people want to claim Africans as Arabs to feel better about themselves.
Even if original Arabs were Black, this does not justify calling many ethnicites in Africa Arab. It just seems sad to me.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo: mandinka are not arabs and do not have arab blood,i just want to make that clear.
anyway most of the african americans that came over in america did not have any Tuareg,siddi or Arab dna.many blacks that came to america came from nigeria,and ghana,mande as well all the way down to angola.
100% C/S... we already finished off this discussion in another thread and frankly I'm not at all intrested in wasting my breathe argueing with people with their own agenda. This is another form of Eurocentrism or should I say Arabcentrism. Arabs played a very small role in West Africa or in the Sudan in general, Islam expanded parallel to the expansion of Muslim African merchents, tribes, dynasties, and other forms of urban civilizations. The small number of non-West Africans in the vicinity of West Africa were largly of northern Maghrebi origin. There is not one tribe in West Africa or the whole of "Sudan" who can equally trace their origins to Arabia, their ancestry is all if not mostly of local African origin. Even the Baggara who represent the biggest "Arab" tribe not in the Sudan, but all of Africa; possess little to no non-African influences according to the most recent and biggest study ever accomplished, i.e. the Tishkoff study. Less than 2.90% of the Baggara's genetic makeup can be possibly traced to outside of Africa. Any non-African input into the Fulani was even less than that, 0.50%. So there you go, ultimate proof that all of these African tribes you guys identify as half Arabs, are in fact 100% African.
Even the light skin Mozabite in northern Algeria were shown to have been predomiantly African.
"In regard to the Mozabite in Algeria.
Mozabite = 40% African Blue + 20% Eurasian Blue = 60 % Blue.
In addition to the 40% composed of both Cushitic (Purple) and Niger-Kordafanian (Orange).
Northern Algerian Mozabite are therefore 80% African and 20% Eurasian."
Chadic speaking peoples in West Africa who also previously claimed "Arab" origins, reportly turned out to be 100% African with no outside influences.
Clustering with Southern Sudan / Central Sudanic + forms their OWN cluster.
Also African-Americans are not a huge mixture as suggested by Dana, according to the study African-Americans were 87% non-"Saharan/Dogon" African, and 13% blue, which is more likely than not a mixture of both indigenous African "Saharan/Dogon" admixture and non-African "European" admixture. So according to the study, African-Americans would be less than 13% non-African.
thanks for the reply.if there was any intermarriage in west africa between arabs and west africans it was very very little amoung a few folks over the recent years in areas.yes overtime they may be very very few intermarriages with a very few west african folks closer to the savanna or the desert in isolated areas among a few from the lower classes,but has a whole most west africans remain 100% african.
most fula are 100% african i think.
even if most or all the arabians were black in way in the past,that's is not the case anymore.sorry,but when i think of a arb today or the last 2000 years at least i do not think of them has black,or most of them i should say.
so when folks say arab,i am mostly thinking white or a brown person until i see otherwise.so i am suspicious when someone means that african group is really arab or part arab etc,because to me i do not think of a black arab when someone mention arab.
the first folks in china were black to,but when i think of china i do not think of blacks and there are blacks in china,of course % wise there are more blacks who live in arabia than china.
___________________________________-
true about african americans,AND WHEN YOU MEAN AFRICAN AMERICAN MEAN most not all have this recent admixtute.the average african american do not have this huge admixture has once thought,and 20% of african american are unmixed. when africans were brought to north america,most all of them were 100% african,and most if not all had no arab or berber.
another thing,i think even most arab in north africa may not be really arab at all.most of the arab west of egypt in north afric are really berbers that have been arabized. look up the word arabized berber.
another point about the arab thing,getting back to that,i remember awhile back on youtube that i had to deal with a arab from sudan.he uploaded a video called the kushites. you may have seen it.
from his point of view the kushites and later nubians are arabs.of course that non-sense.i had deal with some east africas has well who believe the kushites are really oromo or somewhere from the horn of africa,and i hate to say this but most of all of them i slope to believe that many if not all believe east africa had the only civilizations in africa along with north africa.
of course that's non-sense.i do not like to deal or go back and forth with folks who believe that most africans are really arab or kushites are arabs if they believe that.i just do no not have time for that anymore.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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King I really was not talking about you. I know you have no selfhate in you.
It's just that I see some threads on this section that claim Arab genealogy for African Ethnic Groups and they Claim EVERY and ALL west African groups as being part Arab or originating in the Middle East. It's this kind of thinking that has me thinking these people want to claim Africans as Arabs to feel better about themselves.
Even if original Arabs were Black, this does not justify calling many ethnicites in Africa Arab. It just seems sad to me.
I remember you. You're the moron who used to get his ass kicked by rasol for spouting on and on about how "Nubians" were pure Africans because they were true negroes.
Shut the **** up you're dismissed.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
wow that came out of now where. that's seems to be your job on here,attacking folks,cussing at them,not acting normal etc... i notice that about you.
most early nubians were 100% african,and kushite were unmixed period.
rasol did not kick my ass,maybe yours.i got to busy for a back and forth with him,i finished saying what i had to say to him in private,and i am not the a debating type on computer,i don't like it.i just come to the forums to bring info sometimes and a little chat maybe or learn something new and that's it.
i will be leaving again soon because i stayed to long has it is, and you could your fun again all you like.
overall when it came to history rasol and i were basically were on the same page.if you notice we had very little dedate comapared to most others here.it was that that much for us to debate about.
if rasol and i were to talk in real life,that debate would have been cleared in one day or less then a hour. emails and chatting could create misunderstanding,and things could go on and on,and i am just not that kind of a person ,that's why i do not go on that many forums.
it takes away too much time and i do not like to waste time.
on history we had abit of a difference with the term nubia,and if most of the horn of african had admixture,that was my disagreement with him about at that tine,so shut the f up because you do not know what the debate was all about.since then i basically came to basically agree with him about horn of africans and other here,not just him.
there was one more debate but i will not get into that since i am more clear on it and should have put my words in a different context,so it was really a misunderstanding.
rasol and i both agree that kushites were 100% african,you sick freak.i never started trouble with you,why the hell you are cussing me out for?never mind don't answer, your sick,you devil.i do not have time for you.
now you are dismissed.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Do you think there's any connection between the Kunta and the Mandinka from Mali? I'm almost certain they would have crossed paths at one time or another. The reason I'm making such a big deal out of this is because Kunta Kinte has descendents in America. Which would mean there are America's with "Arab" ancestry and don't even know it. Of course we're not talking about the same Arabs you see on TV or those that dominate Islam today. Even the Kunta in your pictures, while not as dark as some other Africans...would definitely be considered Black in America...there are even Black Americans with their skin complexion. But that's all somewhat superficial
king this is what the " unknown arabs" says. Most of teh nations that the AA's where captureed from claimed arab ancestry. Yes the mandinka have marriage relations with the kounta. if u read the book tariq explains the the relation. the mandinka who are the soldier caste of the wangara or wankara are of arab descent from the ancestor wankara bin taras(baras) bin haroun on the authority of askia muhammad told to mahmoud al-k3ati who heared from dameer bin y3acoub who heared it from his shiekh shamharoush al-jinni. this narration is the explanation of the narrative that exist with the songhai qawaaliyeen(griot) that za-alaimaan came with his brother. for some reason people look at it as conflicting but this is incorrect for it is explictly(by the shiekh shamharoush) stated in the fettash that the banu taras split up( into their perspective areas)wakre being the state of the kaya maghan(ghana) who ran them all because they were the oldest klan.
the book roots does mention teh kinte klan being blacksmiths from old mali who came from a marabout who dedicated his life to spreading islam in the land. from an article entitled "3 killed in violence between Kountas and Arabs in eastern MALI "
quote:The Kounta are fair-skinned people of Arabic descent who are known for their religious learning. Many are marabouts - Islamic religious leaders who also practice magic and traditional medicine.
QUOTE FROM THE BOOK ROOTS
quote:In his nattive country of mauretania, karaiba kunta kinte had thrity five reigns of age when his teacher, a master marabout, gave him the blessings tha made him a holy man, said grandma yaisa. Kunta's grandfather had followed a family tradition of holy men that dated back many hundreds of rains into old mali
quote:in juffere kaira kunta kinte took his first wife, a mandinka maiden who name was sireng
so yes aa's are of arab descent
Well since there does seem to be a clear connection. The final question to ask would be as AswaniAswad says. Were they arabized or are they truly from Yemen? From the pics above, I don't know if I'd call them fair-skinned though.
Scorpion - when i first read Tariq's and saw the writings about Kunta being Arab I was very skeptical, and thought it was silly like many othre suggestions in his book. However, since that time I have learned alot about the tribes that came to America and the fact that the Trarza, Brakna and other Mauritanian (Moorish) related tribes originally came with the Portuguese even before the becoming Maroons and the like in America. Others were taken as slaves later as these "Moorish" tribes were warring with one another. Some came thru Senegal and others from Mali. This is now showing up in the dna of many African Americans and even some white Americans. many of the free people of color of the early 1600s brought to America were in fact blacks of Bantu or of Saharan or North African origination, as well as of Omani, Sanzibari, Pakistani or Jat, Gujarat, Goan and Siddi, Yemenite, and Makran origin. Of course later after the 1700s mainly sub-Saharan Africans came of various nations came. I also found this site below. It clearly shows a descendant of Kunta named Chicken George and I can guarantee you black men didn't wear long dresses and yet he is wearing something that looks strangely like that of an Arab or North African Muslim back in the early-mid 1800s! Of course it could be Muslim Mandinke too.
I had no idea, however, the book, Roots itself, claimed Kunta was a "Mauritanian" which speaks for itself. The Trarza, Sahrawi, Kunta and other Zwaya tribes are well-known to have been a mix of recent Islamic Arab people, (mainly Sulaym and Yemenite origins) and Berber people - two originally black people. Some of course did settle among the Mandinke -another well-documented fact.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Do you think there's any connection between the Kunta and the Mandinka from Mali? I'm almost certain they would have crossed paths at one time or another. The reason I'm making such a big deal out of this is because Kunta Kinte has descendents in America. Which would mean there are America's with "Arab" ancestry and don't even know it. Of course we're not talking about the same Arabs you see on TV or those that dominate Islam today. Even the Kunta in your pictures, while not as dark as some other Africans...would definitely be considered Black in America...there are even Black Americans with their skin complexion. But that's all somewhat superficial
king this is what the " unknown arabs" says. Most of teh nations that the AA's where captureed from claimed arab ancestry. Yes the mandinka have marriage relations with the kounta. if u read the book tariq explains the the relation. the mandinka who are the soldier caste of the wangara or wankara are of arab descent from the ancestor wankara bin taras(baras) bin haroun on the authority of askia muhammad told to mahmoud al-k3ati who heared from dameer bin y3acoub who heared it from his shiekh shamharoush al-jinni. this narration is the explanation of the narrative that exist with the songhai qawaaliyeen(griot) that za-alaimaan came with his brother. for some reason people look at it as conflicting but this is incorrect for it is explictly(by the shiekh shamharoush) stated in the fettash that the banu taras split up( into their perspective areas)wakre being the state of the kaya maghan(ghana) who ran them all because they were the oldest klan.
the book roots does mention teh kinte klan being blacksmiths from old mali who came from a marabout who dedicated his life to spreading islam in the land. from an article entitled "3 killed in violence between Kountas and Arabs in eastern MALI "
quote:The Kounta are fair-skinned people of Arabic descent who are known for their religious learning. Many are marabouts - Islamic religious leaders who also practice magic and traditional medicine.
QUOTE FROM THE BOOK ROOTS
quote:In his nattive country of mauretania, karaiba kunta kinte had thrity five reigns of age when his teacher, a master marabout, gave him the blessings tha made him a holy man, said grandma yaisa. Kunta's grandfather had followed a family tradition of holy men that dated back many hundreds of rains into old mali
quote:in juffere kaira kunta kinte took his first wife, a mandinka maiden who name was sireng
so yes aa's are of arab descent
Well since there does seem to be a clear connection. The final question to ask would be as AswaniAswad says. Were they arabized or are they truly from Yemen? From the pics above, I don't know if I'd call them fair-skinned though.
Scorpion - when i first read Tariq's and saw the writings about Kunta being Arab I was very skeptical, and thought it was silly like many othre suggestions in his book. However, since that time I have learned alot about the tribes that came to America and the fact that the Trarza, Brakna and other Mauritanian (Moorish) related tribes originally came with the Portuguese even before the becoming Maroons and the like in America. Others were taken as slaves later as these "Moorish" tribes were warring with one another. Some came thru Senegal and others from Mali. This is now showing up in the dna of many African Americans and even some white Americans. many of the free people of color of the early 1600s brought to America were in fact blacks of Bantu or of Saharan or North African origination, as well as of Omani, Sanzibari, Pakistani or Jat, Gujarat, Goan and Siddi, Yemenite, and Makran origin. Of course later after the 1700s mainly sub-Saharan Africans came of various nations came. I also found this site below. It clearly shows a descendant of Kunta named Chicken George and I can guarantee you black men didn't wear long dresses and yet he is wearing something that looks strangely like that of an Arab or North African Muslim back in the early-mid 1800s! Of course it could be Muslim Mandinke too.
I had no idea, however, the book, Roots itself, claimed Kunta was a "Mauritanian" which speaks for itself. The Trarza, Sahrawi, Kunta and other Zwaya tribes are well-known to have been a mix of recent Islamic Arab people, (mainly Sulaym and Yemenite origins) and Berber people - two originally black people. Some of course did settle among the Mandinke -another well-documented fact.
Yea. I remember watching Roots on TV and there was a part when Kunta Kinte was about to run away and he met up with another Black muslim. Even though the series plays down the Islamic aspect of Kunta's character, they greet each other by saying "salamu alaikum" and Kunta Kinte replies "wa alaikum assalam." I think this shows pretty strongly that Kunta Kinte was in fact muslim. He may have even said it at some point during the miniseries if I remember correctly. And according to wikipedia (I know, I know), the Mandinka are almost 100% muslim anyway.
There is ample evidence out there that there were plenty of Muslims brought to the US as slaves. Looking at the relationship between West African muslim groups and how they're connected is very important.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
let's turn that around. you mean some Mandinke and berbers maybe settled among a few Mandinke in certain few areas in recent times ,and that does not mean the few that settled intermarried or any,because any few berber or arabs that settled with ,most or all mostly like did not intermarried with the very few Mandinke they did settled with.any that settled were in settled areas closer to the desert or around there anyway.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Doctoris Scientia wrote: ----------------------------------
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second that. this ashkenazi dna science is tired. these same same lames claim african but when they look in the books written by these same africans they go running to their colonist dope dealers. they make fun of their own ancestors because they dont actually understand the lingo of their ancestors and actual accomplishments of their ancestors. half these clowns dont even speak the same language as their ancestors spitting AFRICA when their ancestors was spitting somnething else. askia was crowned khalifa of the western sudan by the headquartered baghdad islamic conglomerate and confirmed of his turudi lineage by the illustrious islamic scholar of his time(imam suyuti of egypt). even the king of morocco mansur confirmed his lineage. muhammad kati(scholar and author of one of the tarikh confirmed his lineage. the whole keita klan was mentioned in the arab history books as descendants of ali. not by some dna copycats but by scholars of lineage and history. these are friggin heavy weights. some x y fool is gonna run up and just change the whole game now? just because you dont know what an actual arab looks like? lets be honest. these dudes are ignorant of arab culture and have no idea except those that their pushers shove them. there are still some real left in the continent but most r sell outs and colonist babies rejecting they own traditions for them askeNAZI's. they want respect from their dope pushers and try to use their colonizers style when they should be pushing for independence using their own trade and not the style of your silent enemy. the uncle tom vs. kunta seems to not only reign in the americas.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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Well Arabs from the so called "middle east" were certainly brought as slaves to the Americas including the United States. That is an indisputable fact. So obviously there is some connection between the two groups.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: anyway most of the african americans that came over in america did not have any Tuareg,siddi or Arab dna.many blacks that came to america came from nigeria,and ghana,mande as well all the way down to angola.
And this is based on what? Your subjective pseudoscience? Notice people that once again where you see pseudoscience, its companion pseudohistory is not far behind.
Folks, kenndo believes in the true negro myth. Therefore anyone or group whom he fantasizes as being negro is automatically cast as a slave in the dreamworld of this boy kenndo's mind.
People like kenndo also tend to be zombies to hollywierd and the moosic business. That is why they have to have history altered. Afterall nothing bad is supposed to happen to those supposed "good looking non-negro" people. So says hollywierd and the moosic business.
Well kenndo the real world does not work like that and never has. Stop being an entertainment moron.
There is no way people like kenndo could stomach anyone whom he believes as "non-negro" being a slave. They would need a shrink if they decided to face the truth and reality that they were.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote: many blacks that came to america came from nigeria,and ghana,mande as well all the way down to angola.
Tell us kenndo how could Nigeria, Ghana, Angola, etc (so called "west" Africa) lose millions upon millions upon millions of people to slavery? Shouldn't these populations be non-existent today?
Also how exactly were all of these millions upon millions upon millions of slaves procurred?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Tell us why Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Mauritania, and Mali would be bypassed for slaves when they are actually closer to the caribbean and U.S. than so called "west" Africa?
Is it because of your belief in pseudoscience? Which obviously is why you are expousing eurocentric pseudohistory.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Tell us kenndo how could Nigeria, Ghana, Angola, etc (so called "west" Africa) lose millions upon millions upon millions of people to slavery? Shouldn't these populations be non-existent today?
this is a very great point here.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: If the so called "north" Africans were using whites as slaves, why wouldn't whites use "north" Africans as slaves?
Does anyone think that premise is not laughably absurd?
Actually you've go a point and they were. It is documented. Anyone can google it. The Kunta and Arabs of Brakna and Saharan peoples all victim to the slave trade Atlantic slave trade. And I might add many Scottish and Irish too.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo: mandinka are not arabs and do not have arab blood,i just want to make that clear.
anyway most of the african americans that came over in america did not have any Tuareg,siddi or Arab dna.many blacks that came to america came from nigeria,and ghana,mande as well all the way down to angola.
100% C/S... we already finished off this discussion in another thread and frankly I'm not at all intrested in wasting my breathe argueing with people with their own agenda. This is another form of Eurocentrism or should I say Arabcentrism. Arabs played a very small role in West Africa or in the Sudan in general, Islam expanded parallel to the expansion of Muslim African merchents, tribes, dynasties, and other forms of urban civilizations. The small number of non-West Africans in the vicinity of West Africa were largly of northern Maghrebi origin. There is not one tribe in West Africa or the whole of "Sudan" who can equally trace their origins to Arabia, their ancestry is all if not mostly of local African origin. Even the Baggara who represent the biggest "Arab" tribe not in the Sudan, but all of Africa; possess little to no non-African influences according to the most recent and biggest study ever accomplished, i.e. the Tishkoff study. Less than 2.90% of the Baggara's genetic makeup can be possibly traced to outside of Africa. Any non-African input into the Fulani was even less than that, 0.50%. So there you go, ultimate proof that all of these African tribes you guys identify as half Arabs, are in fact 100% African.
Even the light skin Mozabite in northern Algeria were shown to have been predomiantly African.
"In regard to the Mozabite in Algeria.
Mozabite = 40% African Blue + 20% Eurasian Blue = 60 % Blue.
In addition to the 40% composed of both Cushitic (Purple) and Niger-Kordafanian (Orange).
Northern Algerian Mozabite are therefore 80% African and 20% Eurasian."
Chadic speaking peoples in West Africa who also previously claimed "Arab" origins, reportly turned out to be 100% African with no outside influences.
Clustering with Southern Sudan / Central Sudanic + forms their OWN cluster.
Also African-Americans are not a huge mixture as suggested by Dana, according to the study African-Americans were 87% non-"Saharan/Dogon" African, and 13% blue, which is more likely than not a mixture of both indigenous African "Saharan/Dogon" admixture and non-African "European" admixture. So according to the study, African-Americans would be less than 13% non-African.
First off my understanding is that African Americans come from a "huge admixture" of various black African peoples and not simply "Dogon/Saharan". There are over 250 ethnic groups in Nigeria alone. African Americans also have some Native and European strains although although more European than Native. Even Dogon are derived from a mixture of Nilo-Saharan and Mande speaking people, like other West Africans. And, I don't know which study you are referring to but what surpised me is that the geneticist on Dr Gates program speaking about black Americans was from a southern state and that showed that 13 percent was very low percentage among those she had studied. I'm sure other people have seen this television special which has been nationally televised - which I only found curious as it was in a region with mainly dark skinned "African Americans".
Numerous studies have been done on "African Americans" and on average the percentage of European markers has usually been in the average range of 18 to 20% or more, in line with what the dna specialist asserted on Dr. Gates special and as would be expected from genealogical research.
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: kenndo wrote:
quote: many blacks that came to america came from nigeria,and ghana,mande as well all the way down to angola.
Tell us kenndo how could Nigeria, Ghana, Angola, etc (so called "west" Africa) lose millions upon millions upon millions of people to slavery? Shouldn't these populations be non-existent today?
Also how exactly were all of these millions upon millions upon millions of slaves procurred?
i never said that. i am not one of those who believe that hundred of millions were taken in slavery. don't but words in my mouth.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Clustering with Southern Sudan / Central Sudanic + forms their OWN cluster.
Also African-Americans are not a huge mixture as suggested by Dana, according to the study African-Americans were 87% non-"Saharan/Dogon" African, and 13% blue, which is more likely than not a mixture of both indigenous African "Saharan/Dogon" admixture and non-African "European" admixture. So according to the study, African-Americans would be less than 13% non-African. [/qb]
First off my understanding is that African Americans come from a "huge admixture" of various black African peoples and not simply "Dogon/Saharan". There are over 250 ethnic groups in Nigeria alone. African Americans also have some Native and European strains although although more European than Native. Even Dogon are derived from a mixture of Nilo-Saharan and Mande speaking people, like other West Africans. And, I don't know which study you are referring to but what surpised me is that the geneticist on Dr Gates program speaking about black Americans was from a southern state and that showed that 13 percent was very low percentage among those she had studied. I'm sure other people have seen this television special which has been nationally televised - which I only found curious as it was in a region with mainly dark skinned "African Americans".
Numerous studies have been done on "African Americans" and on average the percentage of European markers has usually been in the average range of 18 to 20% or more, in line with what the dna specialist asserted on Dr. Gates special and as would be expected from genealogical research.
One example of such studies can be found below.
[/qb][/QUOTE]in the south in some areas the average european marker in some places is 10% or lower,but overall the average european marker is about 13%. in some areas of the country it's higher and some areas it's lower,but when you average it out it's about 13%.
less then 5% or about 5% of african americans have native dna and up to only 75% have some form of european dna from these test taken so far,but has someone else said,who could trust the test?maybe it's fake,maybe most african american have no admixture. i am only repeating what someone else has said here who loves to attack folks out of nowhere.
anyway i am done with this topic.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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so yes aa's are of arab descent
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