Abstract There is an ongoing discussion in the literature on whether human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) evolves neutrally. There have been previous claims for natural selection on human mtDNA based on an excess of non-synonymous mutations and higher evolutionary persistence of specific mitochondrial mutations in Arctic populations. However, these findings were not supported by the reanalysis of larger datasets. Using a geographical framework, we perform the first direct test of the relative extent to which climate and past demography have shaped the current spatial distribution of mtDNA sequences worldwide. We show that populations living in colder environments have lower mitochondrial diversity and that the genetic differentiation between pairs of populations correlates with difference in temperature. These associations were unique to mtDNA; we could not find a similar pattern in any other genetic marker. We were able to identify two correlated non-synonymous point mutations in the ND3 and ATP6 genes characterized by a clear association with temperature, which appear to be plausible targets of natural selection producing the association with climate. The same mutations have been previously shown to be associated with variation in mitochondrial pH and calcium dynamics. Our results indicate that natural selection mediated by climate has contributed to shape the current distribution of mtDNA sequences in humans.
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) remains by far the most widely used genetic marker in studies of human populations. One assumption behind inferences on past human demographic history is the selective neutrality of the genetic markers employed. There have been claims for natural selection affecting mtDNA, with temperature being highlighted as a possible selective force in a variety of taxa (Ballard & Whitlock 2004) including humans (Torroni et al. 2001; Mishmar et al. 2003; Ruiz-Pesini et al. 2004). However, this has been rejected by several studies, which concluded that human mtDNA sequence variation has not been significantly shaped by climate (Elson et al. 2004; Kivisild et al. 2006; Amo & Brand 2007; Ingman & Gyllensten 2007; Sun et al. 2007). The tests so far have mainly relied on ratios of synonymous and non-synonymous mutations (dN/dS ratios) and to a lesser extent on the evolutionary persistence of mutations in the mitochondrial phylogenetic tree. Interestingly, it has since been shown that dN/dS ratios are largely inadequate when testing for natural selection within populations (Kryazhimskiy & Plotkin 2008). Here we take a radically different approach by directly modelling the distribution of worldwide mitochondrial sequence diversity with geography and climatic variables. The most likely origin of anatomically modern humans lies in sub-Saharan Africa, where the most ancient remains (dated to approximately 200 000 years) have been found (McDougall et al. 2005). It is generally accepted that the human population started expanding its range 50 000–70 000 years ago and then colonized the entire globe with little or no interbreeding with previously established archaic human species (Stringer & Andrews 1988; Macaulay et al. 2005; Liu et al. 2006; Fagundes et al. 2007; Hellenthal et al. 2008; Deshpande et al. 2009). A signature of this expansion can be seen in the smooth clinal geographical distribution of autosomal polymorphisms (Handley et al. 2007). Genetic differentiation between populations increases essentially linearly with geographical distance along landmasses (Relethford 2004; Manica et al. 2005; Ramachandran et al. 2005; Romero et al. 2008) and geographical distance from sub-Saharan Africa is an excellent predictor of the genetic diversity of individual populations throughout the world (Prugnolle et al. 2005a). We can capitalize on these exceptionally strong correlations between genetics and geography by using physical distance as a proxy for past demography (Prugnolle et al. 2005b). This in turn allows for formal statistical testing of the extent to which demography and climate have shaped the current distribution of mitochondrial sequence diversity.
The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations T. Kivisild,1,7 S. Rootsi,1 M. Metspalu,1 S. Mastana,2 K. Kaldma,1 J. Parik,1 E. Metspalu,1 M. Adojaan,1 H.-V. Tolk,1 V. Stepanov,3 M. Gölge,4 E. Usanga,5 S. S. Papiha,6 C. Cinnioğlu,7 R. King,7 L. Cavalli-Sforza,7 P. A. Underhill,7 and R. Villems1
Abstract Two tribal groups from southern India—the Chenchus and Koyas—were analyzed for variation in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), the Y chromosome, and one autosomal locus and were compared with six caste groups from different parts of India, as well as with western and central Asians. In mtDNA phylogenetic analyses, the Chenchus and Koyas coalesce at Indian-specific branches of haplogroups M and N that cover populations of different social rank from all over the subcontinent. Coalescence times suggest early late Pleistocene settlement of southern Asia and suggest that there has not been total replacement of these settlers by later migrations. H, L, and R2 are the major Indian Y-chromosomal haplogroups that occur both in castes and in tribal populations and are rarely found outside the subcontinent. Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup. Haplotype frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups, from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. The phylogeography of the primal mtDNA and Y-chromosome founders suggests that these southern Asian Pleistocene coastal settlers from Africa would have provided the inocula for the subsequent differentiation of the distinctive eastern and western Eurasian gene pools.
-------------- M1 data shows African origin of settlement into India?
quote: "Phylogeographic patterns of the Y chromosome and mtDNA support the concept that the Indian subcontinent played a pivotal role in the late Pleistocene genetic differentiation of the western and eastern Eurasian gene pools. All non-Africans, including Indian populations, have inherited a subset of African mtDNA haplogroup L3 lineages, differentiated into groups M and N. Although the frequency of haplogroup M and its diversity are highest in India (Majumder 2001; Edwin et al. 2002), there is no phylogenetic evidence yet from the mtDNA coding region demonstrating that its presence in Africa is due to a back migration. Also, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general (Ingman et al. 2000; Herrnstadt et al. 2002; Kivisild et al. 2002) suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the horn of Africa (i.e., the southern route migration [Nei and Roychoudhury 1993; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Stringer 2000]). More specifically, the ubiquity in India of diverse branches sharing the characteristic 12705T and 16223C transitions (table 2), suggests that the N branch had already given rise to its daughter clade R, which later, in eastern Asians, differentiated into clusters B and R9 (Kivisild et al. 2002) and in western Asia gave rise to haplogroups HV, TJ, and U (Macaulay et al. 1999). The coalescence time of major M subclusters in the Indian subcontinent, which are comparable in diversity and even older than most eastern Asian and Papuan haplogroup M clusters (Forster et al. 2001), suggests that the Indian subcontinent was settled soon after the African exodus (Kivisild et al. 1999b, 2000) and that there has been no complete extinction or replacement of the initial settlers."Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 January 7; 100(1): 171–176. ------------------------
Natural selection shaped regional mtDNA variation in humans
Dan Mishmar,ab Eduardo Ruiz-Pesini,ab Pawel Golik,bc Vincent Macaulay,d Andrew G. Clark,e Seyed Hosseini,b Martin Brandon,ab Kirk Easley,f Estella Chen,g Michael D. Brown,bh Rem I. Sukernik,i Antonel Olckers,j and Douglas C. Wallaceabk
Abstract Human mtDNA shows striking regional variation, traditionally attributed to genetic drift. However, it is not easy to account for the fact that only two mtDNA lineages (M and N) left Africa to colonize Eurasia and that lineages A, C, D, and G show a 5-fold enrichment from central Asia to Siberia. As an alternative to drift, natural selection might have enriched for certain mtDNA lineages as people migrated north into colder climates. To test this hypothesis we analyzed 104 complete mtDNA sequences from all global regions and lineages. African mtDNA variation did not significantly deviate from the standard neutral model, but European, Asian, and Siberian plus Native American variations did. Analysis of amino acid substitution mutations (nonsynonymous, Ka) versus neutral mutations (synonymous, Ks) (ka/ks) for all 13 mtDNA protein-coding genes revealed that the ATP6 gene had the highest amino acid sequence variation of any human mtDNA gene, even though ATP6 is one of the more conserved mtDNA proteins. Comparison of the ka/ks ratios for each mtDNA gene from the tropical, temperate, and arctic zones revealed that ATP6 was highly variable in the mtDNAs from the arctic zone, cytochrome b was particularly variable in the temperate zone, and cytochrome oxidase I was notably more variable in the tropics. Moreover, multiple amino acid changes found in ATP6, cytochrome b, and cytochrome oxidase I appeared to be functionally significant. From these analyses we conclude that selection may have played a role in shaping human regional mtDNA variation and that one of the selective influences was climate.
Numerous previous surveys of aboriginal populations have demonstrated that the branches of the mtDNA tree (composed of groups of related haplotypes or haplogroups) are continent-specific, with virtually no mixing of mtDNA haplogroups from the different geographic regions (1). In Africa, the three most ancient mtDNA haplogroups (L0, L1, and L2), which make up macrohaplogroup L, are specific for sub-Saharan Africa. African macrohaplogroup L radiated to form the Africa-specific haplogroup L3 as well as the Eurasian macrohaplogroups M and N. M and N arose in northeastern Africa and individuals bearing M and N mtDNAs subsequently left Africa to colonize Europe and Asia (1, 2). Among Europeans, haplogroups H, I, J, N1b, T, U, V, W, and X make up >98% of the mtDNAs. These haplogroups were derived primarily from macrohaplogroup N. In Asia, macrohaplogroups N and M contributed equally to mtDNA radiation, with a plethora of derivative mtDNA lineages being generated within southeastern and central Asia (3). However, in Siberia, northward from the Altai Mountains and the Amur River, only six mtDNA haplogroups (A, C, D, G, Z, and Y) make up >75% of the mtDNAs. In contrast, south of Tibet and Korea, haplogroups A, C, D, and G represent only 14% of the mtDNAs, and haplogroups Y and Z are rare. Thus there is a 5-fold enrichment of A, C, D, and G mtDNAs between central Asia and Siberia (4, 5). In Native American populations, only five Old World mtDNA haplogroups (A, B, C, D, and X) encompass 100% of the mtDNA variation (1). Haplogroups A, C, and D, which represent 58% of Siberian mtDNAs, came to the Americas from northern Siberia across the Bering land bridge. Haplogroup B may have arrived later, because it is virtually absent in Siberia and rare in northern North America, and its sequence diversity in Native Americans is less than that of A, C, or D. In Asia, B is found primarily along the Asian coast and out into the Pacific. Hence, it might have come to the Americas via a coastal route, thus bypassing the extreme north. Finally, Native American haplogroup X is concentrated in north central North America and is distantly related to European X. Hence it probably also arrived in the Americas via a northern route. Thus, extensive global population studies have shown that there are striking differences in the nature of the mtDNAs found in different geographic regions. Previously, these marked differences in mtDNA haplogroup distribution were attributed to founder effects, specifically the colonizing of new geographic regions by only a few immigrants that contributed a limited number of mtDNAs. However, this model is difficult to reconcile with the fact that northeastern Africa harbors all of the African-specific mtDNA lineages as well as the progenitors of the Eurasia radiation, yet only two mtDNA lineages (macrohaplogroups M and N) left northeastern Africa to colonize all of Eurasia (1, 2) and also that there is a striking discontinuity in the frequency of haplogroups A, C, D, and G between central Asia and Siberia, regions that are contiguous over thousands of kilometers. Rather than Eurasia and Siberia being colonized by a limited number of founders, it seems more likely that environmental factors enriched for certain mtDNA lineages as humans moved to the more northern latitudes. Natural selection has been hypothesized to explain anomalies in the branch lengths of certain European (6) and African (7) mtDNA lineages. The mtDNA encodes 13 polypeptides of oxidative phosphorylation (OXPHOS) including ND1, ND2, ND3, ND4, ND4L, ND5, and ND6 of complex I (NADH dehydrogenase); cytochrome b (cytb) of complex III (bc1 complex); COI, COII, and COIII of complex IV (cytochrome c oxidase); and ATP6 and ATP8 of complex V (ATP synthase). Hence, the genes of the mtDNA are central to energy production, both to generate ATP to perform work and to generate heat to maintain body temperature. We now hypothesize that natural selection may have influenced the regional differences between mtDNA lineages. This hypothesis is supported by our demonstration of striking differences in the ratio of nonsynonymous (nsyn)/synonymous (syn) nucleotide changes in mtDNA genes between geographic regions in different latitudes. We speculate that these differences may reflect the ancient adaptation of our ancestors to increasingly colder climates as Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa and into Europe and northeastern Asia.
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In all of the above studies, the authors hold for the greatest diversity on the African side of the equation, with Haplogroups M and N originating in Africa to create subsets elsewhere. Based on the climatic and other selectiion factors above in mtDNA diversity, what are the implications for assorted "backflow" theories?
In the Mishmar study below ("Natural Selection"}, tropical and sub-tropical are grouped together under an "African" category..
Figure 3 "Distribution of the relative selective constrains [ka/(ks + constant)] calculated for the human mtDNA lineages associated with different climatic zones: tropical and subtropical (African), temperate (European), and arctic and subarctic (Siberian and Native American). "
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Simply put, the distribution pattern of hg M suggests that the diversity of hg M reached its climax in and/or around the Indian sub-continent region, after the basal M clade(s) likely arrived from Africa, to produce what would be called a founder effect in southern Asia.
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Climate has not influenced the distribution of mtDNA. It is migration and history that has played the most important role in the spread of haplogroups.
The Aryan Invasion Theory has not been proven wrong. The Vedic literature makes it clear that the Aryans were nomads who entered iNDIA ATTACKING WALLED CITIES inhabited by non-Aryan people.
The oldest M lineages are not found on the Indian sub-coninent. They are found in the Adaman Island.
The idea that the M haplogroups are unique to India is a myth propagated by hindutva geneticists. The carriers of M clades are predominantely Dravidian speakers.
The Dravidian speakers belonged to the C-Group culture. This is supported by linguistic, archaeology and anthropological data. As a result, the mtDNA M clades in India, y-chromosome and HLA are of recent African origin.
There is mtDNA data uniting Africans and Dravidians.
Can Parallel Mutation and neutral genome selection explain Eastern African M1 consensus HVS-1 motifs in Indian M haplogroup http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?hg07022
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The Dravidians Black Africans who only recently moved to India in the past 5ky.
East Indians have been called Black because they are Black.
The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Holocene period not Paleolithic.
In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ). The the Proto-Dravidians were probably one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush (K.P. Aravanan, "Physical and Cultural Similarities between Dravidian and African", Journal of Tamil Studies, no.10 (1976, pp.23-27:24. ).
Genetics as noted by Mait Metspalu et al writing in 2004, in “Most extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans” http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/5/26
can not tell which group first entered India. Mait Metspalu wrote
quote: Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among the present day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the listed above linguistically defined group in India should be considered more “autochthonous” than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent (p.9).
B.B. Lal ("The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal.
B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) believes that this pottery radiated from Nubia to India. This pottery along with wavy-line pottery is associated with the Saharo-Sudanese pottery tradition of ancient Africa .
Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).
There are also similarities between the Dravidian and African religions. For example, both groups held a common interest in the cult of the Serpent and believed in a Supreme God, who lived in a place of peace and tranquility ( Thundy, p.87; J.T. Cornelius,"Are Dravidians Dynastic Egyptians", Trans. of the Archaeological Society of South India 1951-1957, pp.90-117; and U.P. Upadhyaya, "Dravidian and Negro-African", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5, no.1 ) .
There are also affinities between the names of many gods including Amun/Amma and Murugan . Murugan the Dravidian god of the mountains parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains .
There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh,Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. Some researchers due to the genetic relationship between the Dravidians and Niger-Congo speaking groups they call the Indians the Sudroid (Indo-African) Race (RaceandHistory,2006).
Dravidian languages are predominately spoken in southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe.
Linguistic Evidence
1.1 Many scholars have recognized the linguistic unity of Black African (BA) and Dravidian (Dr.) languages. These affinities are found not only in the modern African languages but also that of ancient Egypt. These scholars have made it clear that lexical, morphological and phonetic unity exist between African languages in West and North Africa as well as the Bantu group.
1.2 K.P. Arvaanan (1976) has noted that there are ten common elements shared by BA languages and the Dr. group. They are (1) simple set of five basic vowels with short-long consonants;(2) vowel harmony; (3) absence of initial clusters of consonants; (4) abundance of geminated consonants; (5) distinction of inclusive and exclusive pronouns in first person plural; (6) absence of degrees of comparison for adjectives and adverbs as distinct morphological categories; (7) consonant alternation on nominal increments noticed by different classes; (8)distinction of completed action among verbal paradigms as against specific tense distinction;(9) two separate sets of paradigms for declarative and negative forms of verbs; and (l0) use of reduplication for emphasis.
1.3 There has been a long development in the recognition of the linguistic unity of African and Dravidian languages. The first scholar to document this fact was the French linguist L. Homburger (1950,1951,1957,1964). Prof. Homburger who is best known for her research into African languages was convinced that the Dravidian languages explained the morphology of the Senegalese group particularly the Serere, Fulani group. She was also convinced that the kinship existed between Kannanda and the Bantu languages, and Telugu and the Mande group. Dr. L. Homburger is credited with the discovery for the first time of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between Bantu and Dravidians
1.6 By the 1970's numerous scholars had moved their investigation into links between Dr. and BA languages on into the Senegambia region. Such scholars as Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) a Senegalese linguist, and U.P. Upadhyaya (1973) of India , have proved conclusively Dr. Homburger's theory of unity between the Dravidian and the Senegalese languages.
1.7 C.T. N'Diaye, who studied Tamil in India, has identified nearly 500 cognates of Dravidian and the Senegalese languages. Upadhyaya (1973) after field work in Senegal discovered around 509 Dravidian and Senegambian words that show full or slight correspondence.
The most interesting fact about this evidence is that the Dravidian language is closely related to the Niger-Congo group. There are other linguistic groups that separate the Niger-Congo speakers from the Dravidians. The fact that they are genetically related indicates that the Dravidians recently came to India.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Dravidians Black Africans who only recently moved to India in the past 5ky.
East Indians have been called Black because they are Black.
The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Holocene period not Paleolithic.
In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ).
Clyde, simply put you speak nonsense. You aren't upholding anything but falsehoods.
The first people to hit Asia were Africans from East Africa in general but Africa. These populations were extremely diverse. Among them you had kinky haired "negritoes" along with straighter haired types. They did not all move into Asia on the same day or via the exact same route, but generally over the course of thousands of years starting 60,000 years ago, you had the initial settlement of South Asia. Another branch of the original population moved north through the Levant and into Northern Asia. From this branch derives the Northern Asian populations: Tibetan, Mongolian and Eskimo. From the Southern Branch derived all the South Asian types: Indian, Australian, Negrito, Papuan, Pacific Islander.
The key here is that these original populations moving out of Africa were extremely diverse to begin with and that the settlement was not all at one time but gradual and in waves over a few thousand year period. People tend to assume that this all happened at one time like people in buses driving from Africa to Asia but that is not the case. It took thousands of years for Asia to get settled by modern humans and in the process develop the features seen there today. And all of these people for most of that time were black, with various types of features: slanted eyes, tall and gracile, short and robust, curly haired, straighter haired, big noses, thin noses and so forth. Therefore, trying to claim that this is a result of later African arrivals is false. And all of this diversity is what gave rise to the "mongoloid" type, which originally was simply a subset of black African aboriginal Asian features.
The points being made by the study above is that as these people migrated North and East, the feature diversity within populations diminished. So when one group settled a given area, they intermarried and produced features common to their group. That groups features would be based on those found in the original settlement population. These gave rise to the different pockets of features across Asia. And environment played a role in how some of these features developed. But you have to remember there was also a gradient and mixture of features between and among populations as well.
Yes, Africans have gone to Asia since then for trade and other reasons but those later migrations did not create the diversity of blacks in Asia, it was already there.
And to show for the thousandth time how false your position is, the Australian aborigines are examples of the oldest populations in Asia, along with the Papuans, the Negritoes, South Indians and the Andamese. They do not all have the same features, even though they all are most representative of the original populations to spread out of Africa.
They didn't just arrive from Africa 5,000 years ago. To even claim such a thing contradicts everything we know about human history. But you don't even see how you contradict yourself.
The similarities between Africans and certain Asian populations is not because of any recent 5,000 year old migrations of Africans to Asia. Those similarities go back many thousands of years.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [qb] The Dravidians Black Africans who only
recently moved to India in the past 5ky.
East Indians have been called Black because they are Black.
The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Holocene period not Paleolithic.
In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ).
Clyde, simply put you speak nonsense. You aren't upholding anything but falsehoods.
The first people to hit Asia were Africans from East Africa in general but Africa. These populations were extremely diverse. Among them you had kinky haired "negritoes" along with straighter haired types.
That straight haired people originated in Africa speculation has no evidence it's complete speculation.
I see what is happening here. Whenever a political- racial agenda is involved evolutionary adaptation gets ignored.
the following types of hair do not and never have existed in Africa:
the reason for these other types of hair is a separate issue, they do not originate from Africa and you cannot find tribes in Africa representing these types of hair.
Africa is diverse.
But you have exaggerated the concept to exclude some traits which evolved outside of Africa
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^ Even if such hair evolved out of Africa, it is still NOT cold-adapted you fool.
Of course Clyde's rhetoric of Dravidians being descendants of Arican migrants from only just 5kya is b.s. But another thing that Clyde fails to understand is that climate patterns do have an impact on human migrations. For example, the reason why the temperate and cold climate areas of Eurasian especially Europe was settled much later than previously thought is because of extreme arid conditions that made northern Arabia and Central Asia a vast desert. It's logical that human beings at that time could only travel where it is most feasible to travel, and this usually meant by foot, though canoeing or small boat travel was also possible.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Simply put, the distribution pattern of hg M suggests that the diversity of hg M reached its climax in and/or around the Indian sub-continent region, after the basal M clade(s) likely arrived from Africa, to produce what would be called a founder effect in southern Asia.
Could the same not be said for the Y-chromosomal diversity in Africa, especially when it pertains to R1?
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The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations T. Kivisild,1,7 S. Rootsi,1 M. Metspalu,1 S. Mastana,2 K. Kaldma,1 J. Parik,1 E. Metspalu,1 M. Adojaan,1 H.-V. Tolk,1 V. Stepanov,3 M. Gölge,4 E. Usanga,5 S. S. Papiha,6 C. Cinnioğlu,7 R. King,7 L. Cavalli-Sforza,7 P. A. Underhill,7 and R. Villems1
Abstract Two tribal groups from southern India—the Chenchus and Koyas—were analyzed for variation in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), the Y chromosome, and one autosomal locus and were compared with six caste groups from different parts of India, as well as with western and central Asians. In mtDNA phylogenetic analyses, the Chenchus and Koyas coalesce at Indian-specific branches of haplogroups M and N that cover populations of different social rank from all over the subcontinent. Coalescence times suggest early late Pleistocene settlement of southern Asia and suggest that there has not been total replacement of these settlers by later migrations. H, L, and R2 are the major Indian Y-chromosomal haplogroups that occur both in castes and in tribal populations and are rarely found outside the subcontinent. Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup. Haplotype frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups, from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. The phylogeography of the primal mtDNA and Y-chromosome founders suggests that these southern Asian Pleistocene coastal settlers from Africa would have provided the inocula for the subsequent differentiation of the distinctive eastern and western Eurasian gene pools.
-------------- M1 data shows African origin of settlement into India?
quote: "Phylogeographic patterns of the Y chromosome and mtDNA support the concept that the Indian subcontinent played a pivotal role in the late Pleistocene genetic differentiation of the western and eastern Eurasian gene pools. All non-Africans, including Indian populations, have inherited a subset of African mtDNA haplogroup L3 lineages, differentiated into groups M and N. Although the frequency of haplogroup M and its diversity are highest in India (Majumder 2001; Edwin et al. 2002), there is no phylogenetic evidence yet from the mtDNA coding region demonstrating that its presence in Africa is due to a back migration. Also, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general (Ingman et al. 2000; Herrnstadt et al. 2002; Kivisild et al. 2002) suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the horn of Africa (i.e., the southern route migration [Nei and Roychoudhury 1993; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Stringer 2000]). More specifically, the ubiquity in India of diverse branches sharing the characteristic 12705T and 16223C transitions (table 2), suggests that the N branch had already given rise to its daughter clade R, which later, in eastern Asians, differentiated into clusters B and R9 (Kivisild et al. 2002) and in western Asia gave rise to haplogroups HV, TJ, and U (Macaulay et al. 1999). The coalescence time of major M subclusters in the Indian subcontinent, which are comparable in diversity and even older than most eastern Asian and Papuan haplogroup M clusters (Forster et al. 2001), suggests that the Indian subcontinent was settled soon after the African exodus (Kivisild et al. 1999b, 2000) and that there has been no complete extinction or replacement of the initial settlers."
What this study may mostly tell us by association, is that Indo-European also emerged in central Asia and conversely, reached Europe via invasion (not the other way around). The "Aryan" invasion model it seems is based on weak assumptions (that all lineages and language groups present in Europe emerged there).
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^^ I wouldn't be surprised at the notion of Indo-European languages entering into Europe and not the other way around -- not necissarily because of Afro-Arabian holocene era demic movements and even if not happening during the subcontinent's initial peopling (CroMagnon).
There are also Westward demic shifts along the Southern Russian region related to Scythian ancestral populations and reaching as far as Britain and Ireland.
This invasian which introduced horseback fighters was likely bloody as evidenced by mass graves across Europe. Supposedly isolated pockets of old Euros were left intact in Greece, Spain, Italy, Scotland and Mediterranean islands like Sardinia, Crete, and Thera. Elsewhere populations mixed. This is from about 7.5 - 5 years before present.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: ^^ I wouldn't be surprised at the notion of Indo-Aryan languages entering into Europe and not the other way around -- not necissarily because of Afro-Arabian holocene era demic movements and even if not happening during the subcontinent's initial peopling (CroMagnon).
There are also Westward demic shifts along the Southern Russian region related to Scythian ancestral populations and reaching as far as Britain and Ireland.
This invasian which introduced horseback fighters was likely bloody as evidenced by mass graves across Europe. Supposedly isolated pockets of old Euros were left intact in Greece, Spain, Italy, Scotland and Mediterranean islands like Sardinia, Crete, and Thera. Elsewhere populations mixed. This is from about 7.5 - 5 years before present.
The Indo-Aryan languages never entered Europe. The influence of European languages on Sanskrit result from the Greek colonization of India and presence of Greeks in India when the grammar for Sanskrit was written.
posted
^ Indo-Aryan languages are a branch of Indo-European. Judging by the positioning of the different branches with the most branches being located in Europe but the most diverse branches located in eastern Europe and especially the Indo-Iranian languages of Central Asia, Iran, and India, one must point to origins somewhere in the Russian steppes.
quote:Originally posted by the lyingass: Do you have some alternative theory for it? If you don't then be quiet
The only one presenting alternative theories is YOU, dummy! There is no proof that such hair is cold-adapted simply because it is found in people who are tropically adapted and never left the tropicals, nitwit!
Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: ^^ I wouldn't be surprised at the notion of Indo-European languages entering into Europe and not the other way around -- not necissarily because of Afro-Arabian holocene era demic movements and even if not happening during the subcontinent's initial peopling (CroMagnon).
There are also Westward demic shifts along the Southern Russian region related to Scythian ancestral populations and reaching as far as Britain and Ireland.
This invasian which introduced horseback fighters was likely bloody as evidenced by mass graves across Europe. Supposedly isolated pockets of old Euros were left intact in Greece, Spain, Italy, Scotland and Mediterranean islands like Sardinia, Crete, and Thera. Elsewhere populations mixed. This is from about 7.5 - 5 years before present.
^Using assorted "Aryan" models in reverse, if the above is correct then it is Asiatic invaders that civilized old Europe?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: That straight haired people originated in Africa speculation has no evidence it's complete speculation.
I see what is happening here. Whenever a political- racial agenda is involved evolutionary adaptation gets ignored.
the following types of hair do not and never have existed in Africa:
the reason for these other types of hair is a separate issue, they do not originate from Africa and you cannot find tribes in Africa representing these types of hair.
Africa is diverse.
But you have exaggerated the concept to exclude some traits which evolved outside of Africa
I don't know why I have to be the one following behind Lioness to correct her lies and bullsh1t. It can't always be MY turn!
Lioness, you ignorant, lying, Albino-in-denial-fool. Like any fool, you think that what you WANT to be true IS true.
Not so: first you Albinos wanted White skin to be special, but then we told you that White skin was due to a defect in you.
Now you want straight hair to be special, AND HAVE THE FUCHING NERVE TO DECLARE THAT IT IS NOT FOUND IN AFRICA - AS IF A FOOL LIKE YOU COULD POSSIBLY KNOW!!!
But first:
THIS IS NOT WHITE HAIR!!!!
It is treated and straighten hair. Yes some White people DO have Mongol type hair. But this is the norm.
THIS IS "NATURAL" Normal WHITE PEOPLE HAIR.
The African aesthetic is NOT treated, straightened hair. Africans do OTHER things for beautification.
Don't know if her hair is straighten or not. I just included it because I like her tits.
Is my foot sufficiently embedded in your pink ass, to where you get my drift?
In the future, please spare us your stupidity by checking with me before making ANY declarative statements. You don't know sh1t, and you really need to consider your ignorance, before putting people to the trouble of disproving your lies.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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^To all those who were agreeing with Lioness. The same goes for you. Check with me before posting.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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^ Matter not anyway. According to lyinass and her friends all those Africans above possess varying levels of Eurasian caca-soid ancestry. Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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But you know, at some level, I think that she is serious. It seems to me that the lower level Whites have been so programed to think of Africans and Africa in such a way, that the truth seems incredible to them.
It also seems obvious to me, that she has no idea just how huge Africa is, in population and size. And how many different kinds of people live there.
Ignorant White people have always been a problem for the world. Luckily, Lioness doesn't have guns - I hope.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mike Don't know if her hair is straighten or not. I just included it because I like her tits. LMAO.. you got your moments Mike.. hahahah
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Dravidians Black Africans who only recently moved to India in the past 5ky.
East Indians have been called Black because they are Black.
The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Holocene period not Paleolithic.
In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ).
Clyde, simply put you speak nonsense. You aren't upholding anything but falsehoods.
What is this "Mediterranean" type scientifically?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Brada-Anansi - Check the classic Mammary curve on the woman behind her, I think they are Zulu. While I don't think much of their practices or politics, I must say, their women are excellent.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Lioness, time to go away now, your idiot points have already been addressed. And I have already had my fun abusing you.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Dravidians Black Africans who only recently moved to India in the past 5ky.
East Indians have been called Black because they are Black.
The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Holocene period not Paleolithic.
In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ).
Clyde, simply put you speak nonsense. You aren't upholding anything but falsehoods.
What is this "Mediterranean" type scientifically?
The Dravidians , like other Proto-Saharan people were round-headed ancient Mediterraneans. The ancient Mediterraneans were often referred to as Cafsa or Capsians; a group of people not devoid of negroid characteristics according to J Desanges. Wyatt MacGaffey, claims that the term "Mediterranean" is nothing more than an anthropological euphemism for "Negro". The scientific name is: Negro.
Feferences:
Desages, J. "The Proto-Berbers". In General History of Africa vol.2, (Ed.) by G. Mokhtar (Heinemann Educational Books, London) p.25.
MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Even Carleton Coons hedged on the classification. It made some of his claims shaky.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Dravidians Black Africans who only recently moved to India in the past 5ky.
East Indians have been called Black because they are Black.
The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Holocene period not Paleolithic.
In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ).
Clyde, simply put you speak nonsense. You aren't upholding anything but falsehoods.
What is this "Mediterranean" type scientifically?
The Dravidians , like other Proto-Saharan people were round-headed ancient Mediterraneans. The ancient Mediterraneans were often referred to as Cafsa or Capsians; a group of people not devoid of negroid characteristics according to J Desanges. Wyatt MacGaffey, claims that the term "Mediterranean" is nothing more than an anthropological euphemism for "Negro". The scientific name is: Negro.
Feferences:
Desages, J. "The Proto-Berbers". In General History of Africa vol.2, (Ed.) by G. Mokhtar (Heinemann Educational Books, London) p.25.
MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.
Early Dravidic people and most Africans of the proto-Sahara and Sahel were the opposite of roundheaded (brachycranic). These people populated ancient Egypt and much of East Africa and became known by the euphemisms "Afro-Mediterranean" or "Eurafrican" or "hamite".
Mesocranic and round headed people tend to be more prevalent among peoples in the southern part of the Sudan and in Central Africa as well as San Kung people.
THe bulk of modern East Asians and Europeans (including fair-skinned north Africans) and people of the modern Middle East and south Mediterranean are also mainly extremely brachycephalic (round-headed) or mesocranic.
Desages, J. "The Proto-Berbers". In General History of Africa vol.2, (Ed.) by G. Mokhtar (Heinemann Educational Books, London) p.25.
MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Early Dravidic people and most Africans of the proto-Sahara and Sahel were the opposite of roundheaded (brachycranic). These people populated ancient Egypt and much of East Africa and became known by the euphemisms "Afro-Mediterranean" or "Eurafrican" or "hamite".
Mesocranic and round headed people tend to be more prevalent among peoples in the southern part of the Sudan and in Central Africa as well as San Kung people.
THe bulk of modern East Asians and Europeans (including fair-skinned north Africans) and people of the modern Middle East and south Mediterranean are also mainly extremely brachycephalic (round-headed) or mesocranic.
Desages, J. "The Proto-Berbers". In General History of Africa vol.2, (Ed.) by G. Mokhtar (Heinemann Educational Books, London) p.25.
MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.
The original inhabitants of the Sahara, the Proto-Saharans where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC.
This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. (Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b, 1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians.
Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author) The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).
The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.
The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.
The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.
The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
Reference:
Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area.
Diop,A.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.
Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan.The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians.
Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art.
Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan(Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Early Dravidic people and most Africans of the proto-Sahara and Sahel were the opposite of roundheaded (brachycranic). These people populated ancient Egypt and much of East Africa and became known by the euphemisms "Afro-Mediterranean" or "Eurafrican" or "hamite".
Mesocranic and round headed people tend to be more prevalent among peoples in the southern part of the Sudan and in Central Africa as well as San Kung people.
THe bulk of modern East Asians and Europeans (including fair-skinned north Africans) and people of the modern Middle East and south Mediterranean are also mainly extremely brachycephalic (round-headed) or mesocranic.
Desages, J. "The Proto-Berbers". In General History of Africa vol.2, (Ed.) by G. Mokhtar (Heinemann Educational Books, London) p.25.
MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.
The original inhabitants of the Sahara, the Proto-Saharans where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC.
This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. (Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b, 1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians.
Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author) The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).
The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.
The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.
The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.
The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
Reference:
Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area.
Diop,A.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.
Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan.The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians.
Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art.
Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan(Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara.
Berber is originally the name for the peoples of Somalia and the Horn streching into the Yemen and related peoples of the Sahara. I didn't mention them above, nor Europeans. Black Africans of the Sahel and Northern part of the Sudan are mainly long headed, not "round-headed" and have been so since the Paleolithic.
Neither were the Elamites brachycranic, nor are the Dravidians and especially not ancient C group A group or protoEgyptian peoples and neolithic Saharan peoples. Indo-Europeans are predominantly mesocranic and brachycranic "round-heads" which is why even Isaac Asimov and even Carleton Coon said long-headedness is not found anywhere on "a regional basis" in Europe.
Thank you for the bibliographical references though. Although I am not familiar with Jelinek, Farid or Quellec, some of them I have used in earlier papers (De Sanges and MacGaffey, Charles Bonnet and Libya Antiqua). Based on their findings I wrote articles published in Van Sertima's, Golden Age of the Moor and Egypt Child of Africa ("The Myth of the Mediterranean Race") which included info about the Saharan origin and affiliations of Nubian C and A group, Temehou, Tehenu and proto-Egyptian civilization(Naqqada, Amratian, etc) as confirmed by earlier archeologists and rock art specialists such as Hiernaux, Mori, Arkell and Bates, etc. At the time however I think most were assuming C group was much younger than A and other Saharan groups.
It is great to see that this knowledge has been further substantiated with other objective studies.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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MIKE HAS YOU KNOW,THE PICS that you have posted a few of those folks do not have NATURAL STRAIGHT HAIR,but you know that.
_________________________________________________ I only open this thread to read about india,but let me comment real quick about ancient nubians of the north sudan and egypt.
There is one thing i do not like about posting in these forums anymore,once in awhile i find myself repeating what i said awhile ago,that's why i am posting less and less here or anywhere.
________________________________________________ yes black africans of the sahel are mostly long headed,but,most ancient kushites of sudan were broad-head on average.
so i agree that the northern part of sudan(meaning lower nubia) was mostly long-headed.
a-group nubians were on average long headed like most upper egyptians.
upper and southern nubians were on average broad-headed and this is where most nubians lived.
This is very clear,and you see it in the art and what scholars have to say.
kushites at one point settled in lower nubia too,but this is after the a- group nubian disappeared.
modern north sudan is were most of this may have change on average abit,but maybe.
I do not like repeating myself,so that's all from here. leaving this thread Bye.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Mike Don't know if her hair is straighten or not. I just included it because I like her tits. LMAO.. you got your moments Mike.. hahahah
anytime anywhere Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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